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How Teix's Hold 'Em Impacts The Phillies

Mark Teixiera is trying to break the bank.

The Scott Boras client — or, Boras himself — is seeking an eight-year, $195 million deal. The players seeking Teixiera (Red Sox, Yankees, Angels, Orioles, Nationals) are willing to go deep for the heavy-slugging first baseman, with the Nats even thinking about a 10-year, $200M contract. Yes, that’s right, 10 years, $200 million.

Let’s look at Teixiera’s career:

904 G / 203 HR / 676 RBI / .290 AVG / .378 OBP / .541 SLG

He’s 28 years old and will be going into his seventh season in the majors, just about at his peak. Meanwhile, the Phillies’ 29-year-old first baseman, Ryan Howard, has a career line that’s not as wealthy as Teixiera’s, since he’s played one fewer season (and 350+ fewer games). But it’s still worthy:

572 G / 177 HR / 499 RBI / .279 AVG / .380 OBP / .590 SLG

I think we can argue pretty easily that Howard’s career has been more impressive. And with that, we all have to wonder: What will No. 6 look to earn once he becomes a free agent — or, heck, what does he look to earn right now?

Teixiera wants $25M per year in 2009; when Howard becomes a free agent in 2011, it’s not out of the question that he’d want maybe $35M per year. Seriously (and I’m fully aware of the economic disaster we’re experiencing in this country). But if the Phils wanted to sign Howard to a long-term deal today, it would have to be at least six years. And the total price would be at least $150M. In 2010, with another fine campaign under his belt, Howard might want six years and $180M.

The Red Sox, Yankees and Angels are annual dabblers in the high-priced contract sweepstakes. Just this offseason, the Yanks tied up CC Sabathia and AJ Burnett together for $40 million per year. Add in the Cubs, Dodgers and Mets, and you have a six-pack of big-paying franchises that seem to always contend.

And thus, lies the question: Where do the Phillies fit? Are they big spenders or givers? Will they think about handing Howard $25M per year starting now? Or $35 million per year in 2011? Or will they settle to hand Howard $14M this year, and close to $20M in 2010, before bidding him farewell?

Mark Teixiera provides a neat microscope into which the rest of us can look. His current wrangling of the market is predicting a long, arduous winter between the Phillies and Ryan Howard. A winter that will end with an answer to the question: Can the Phillies be big market?

94 Comments

94 Comments

  1. Phil

    December 21, 2008 at 3:31 pm

    F*ck Scott Boras, seriously. He is ruining the game of baseball. When players only care about making money and not playing the game it becomes ridiculous. He is one of the reasons players make so much. He overhypes them then shops them to the big market clubs, then the other big market clubs get in on the bidding so the other team doesn’t land him and the bidding war goes up. In Teixera’s case it’s odd. 2 small market teams are bidding on him, and I have no idea why, but they are driving up the price for big market teams. It is ridiculous and ruins the integrity of the game. Players don’t care about winning anymore, they just care about making the big bucks, ie Aaron Rowand.

  2. chris

    December 21, 2008 at 4:06 pm

    Offensivly they’re similar. Defensively speeking they are from different planets. Phillies won’t resign him they’ll make him a below market offer that they know will get outbid just to say they tried. I wouldn’t be suprised if the try trading him after this season. I think it all depends on Jason donalds progress and moving utley to first.

  3. psujoe

    December 21, 2008 at 4:11 pm

    Howard won’t be back after 2009 or 2010. He’s just going to be too expensive. Heck, I’d trade him for Youkilis and John Lester. Would the Red Sox even consider that?

  4. justin

    December 21, 2008 at 4:15 pm

    Boston would be stupid to make that trade but ill take in going into the 2010 season.

  5. David

    December 21, 2008 at 4:22 pm

    It is obvious that Howard has better power numbers on a per 162 game average. However, I still think Teixiera is the better first baseman. He gets on base at almost the same clip. He has been more consistent in his hitting. Howard has always, and probably will always get 40+ HR and 125+ RBI. However, his strikeout totals of 181, 199, 199 over the past three years and his declining BA from .313 to .268 to .251 over the same period, is alarming. Couple that with Teixiera’s superior defense, and I think he gets the slight nod over Howard. And although I hate what Boras means to baseball, I cant get mad at people for wanting to make more money. Who amongst us wouldnt take a different job if it paid us thousands more, let alone millions.

  6. Georgie

    December 21, 2008 at 4:27 pm

    You’re absolutely right Phil, I wonder who has the bigger ego, Boras or Teix? I’d like to think these athletes are just being led around by their noses by these greedy agents, but I don’t think they’re that stupid, so that makes guys like Teix and Manny just as self-absorbed and greedy as Boras. I wish they’d all get over themselves and realize how disgusting it is to most fans, and sign with someone already, man, I HATE this part of professional sports.

  7. Georgie

    December 21, 2008 at 4:33 pm

    David, not to start an argument, but there is a HUGE difference between someone making, say 50K/yr and changing jobs for an extra 10K, and someone making 15-20M/yr and going elsewhere for an extra couple mil! Holy cow, it’s like comparing apples and oranges.

  8. Justin

    December 21, 2008 at 4:39 pm

    I agree with Chris the two may have similar offensive numbers but if Teixeira gets a huge contract this offseason the Phillies will contend that Howard isn’t anywhere near the all around player Teixeira is so I can Howard getting around 6 and 160-180 but I don’t think anyone will offer Howard 8 years, unless they’re really starved for a 1st baseman/DH. I honestly would like to resign him to a 6 year deal right now to have him for 3 years after his arbitration rather than sign him for 6 years in 2011.

  9. Mark

    December 21, 2008 at 5:04 pm

    If Tex gets a huge deal, that automatically pushes Howards arbitration salary up. I still say we trade him before his contract is up.

  10. john of Albuquerque

    December 21, 2008 at 5:22 pm

    Ryan Howard is a great talent. But he and baseball itself, will be drastically and negatively affected by the upcoming economic disaster we are facing. People will resent these salaries like never before and simply spend their entertainment dollars on affordable products and events. Baseball, unfortunately, will run head first into a brick wall at high speed because of greed and a market that simply cannot keep up. It will get ugly. I hate to say this, but I do believe drastic changes are right around the corner. Boros and ARod will be the poster children of these hard times.

  11. Phillies Phan SC

    December 21, 2008 at 6:02 pm

    I have been critical of Howard, but I would pay him a similar contract to Tex. Boras is what is wrong with the game though. I watched the World Series in 1977 that I got cheap on Amazon, and the game was so different in the 1970s before Boras entered… I know he alone is not responsible, but he is one of the “greed” factors.

  12. chris

    December 21, 2008 at 6:19 pm

    boras is not the problem. The teams that are paying are the problems. Especially the ridiculous Yankees/red sox bidding wars when they bid on players they don’t want just to make the others pay.

  13. Jeff

    December 21, 2008 at 6:34 pm

    I like Ryan Howard, both as a hitter and as a personality. He has class. But it might be time to entertain offers for him. His defense is terrible and I’m not sure if he’ll have a long shelf life or break down early. His value is at it’s highest right now because he is under club control for two more years. That means the Phils would get close to what they would ask for him. The longer they wait, the less his value. Maybe they plan on signing him long term. That’s okay, but I think they have to decide that soon and then act accordingly.

  14. Justin

    December 21, 2008 at 6:49 pm

    Yea you cant really blame boras for knowing that teams will overpay for a player, all you need is one team with a need and another team to have interest and Boras will sit back and laugh because he knows he’s going to get a sweet commission. I hate boras as much as I hate drew rosenhaus but they both know how to work the market.

  15. chris

    December 21, 2008 at 7:01 pm

    I can’t hate boras. He’s good at his job. The point of a job is making money. If you can use something to your advantage to make more money then why wouldn’t you?

  16. NJ

    December 21, 2008 at 7:22 pm

    Boras is the George W Bush of baseball, you just wonder how he gets away with the sh*t he has…

  17. chris

    December 21, 2008 at 7:31 pm

    How is boras the same ad bush? Dumbest comment ever.

  18. Geoff

    December 21, 2008 at 8:01 pm

    Bush is a nobody who makes no decisions, the next fake president will be the same as this…they already are talking about how bad its going to be when they invade iran or pakistan and draft people again and raise new taxes to rob us blind while they pose as our saviours….

    anyways…boras needs to be blackballed like i said yesterday. manny lowe tex are all arrogantly refusing BIG offers that anyone would be crazy to turn down…i hope all three of those guys have to accept less money and then fire scott boras.

  19. Geoff

    December 21, 2008 at 8:06 pm

    the problem is that the yankees red sox and angels get desperate and overpay for these jerkoff players. heres a good way to solve this from the “overpaying for players” perspective that these three teams LOVE to take:

    angels – sign brian fuentes and adam dunn, sign randy johnson or trade for brett myers

    yankees: re-sign jason giambi or sign pat burrell

    red sox: DONT sign tex, they dont even need him!!! they have ortiz, youkilis, and lowell and they want more! sign kenshin kawakami or randy wolf or randy johnson

    that way you avoid boras clients lowe manny tex and oliver perez and force them to come crawling back to lesser spending teams after tehy fire scott boras

  20. chris

    December 21, 2008 at 8:18 pm

    Don’t blame the players either. The teams are the ones uping the ante on each other. The offseason is the same as regular season, teams are competitive on the field and owners are competitive off the field.

  21. Geoff

    December 21, 2008 at 8:21 pm

    so you cant blame the players or the agents, and its ALL the owners fault? i dont buy that…its ALL of their faults. nobody at either side of the table is exercising self control

  22. Justin

    December 21, 2008 at 8:26 pm

    And its almost impossible to disregard any of the clients of Boras because he has such a reputation with players coming into the draft he seems to sign at least half of the incoming 1st round amateur draft, then you get the players that change agents to be able to go to war and get the bigger contract. For everything we say about him he still get clients so he does everything his clients want. Don’t get me wrong i still hate him, but at the same time I’m happy we didn’t get JD Drew the year he came out we would have had 2 #1 picks that never reached full potential, Drew’s been on how many teams now?

  23. Geoff

    December 21, 2008 at 8:30 pm

    yeah its impossible to avoid him tahts for sure…but with his top 3 clients this year (lowe, manny, tex) these teams need to take him down a peg or else baseball will suffer. i dont blame the phillies for pulling away from lowe, they should focus on signable players and people who want to come play here, like raul ibanez.

    i wonder who we can get for chris coste?

  24. Evrybuddy Hits woohoo

    December 21, 2008 at 8:31 pm

    I’d like to see a salary cap or a legitimate revenue sharing plan. But it ain’t happening anytime soon. Escalating salaries and a long economic recession will bring it on eventually.

  25. Geoff

    December 21, 2008 at 8:39 pm

    yeah thats for sure…when people cant afford to go to your teams games then maybe the owners will realize that giving free agents too much money is a terrible ida…of course, theyll still be on the hook for all that money on those contracts.

    amaro gets credit for passing on lowe…

  26. Gavin

    December 21, 2008 at 9:11 pm

    Its the owners fault for the rising salaries. If they quit signing contracts, then it would stop at some point. I agree with the comments above that at some point the economy will naturally select some franchises that wont be able to pay their players what they owe them. Scott Boras is an absolute low-life, but all he does is ask for the $$ and then they give iot to him.

  27. NJ

    December 21, 2008 at 9:25 pm

    Looks like Boras has screwed himself and if the Angels are infact out he’ll have to go cap in hand to the Red Sox, surely he only likes the idea of Washington to drive the price up.

  28. chris

    December 21, 2008 at 9:32 pm

    The only way this problem will ever be solved is if the owners got together and made some kind of agreement but that will never happen because like I said before baseball is the most competitive sport on and off the field. All this will stop once we the fans stop buying tickets, buying merch, paying out the ass for beer and hotdogs. Thats the only way moneyball will end. So were to blame for believing that baseball is a sacred sport and players and agents are evil for taking money they know they’ll get. God bless them for taking advantage of people that take OUR hard earned money from billionairs to entertain us the fans.

  29. Matt Kwasiborski

    December 21, 2008 at 9:46 pm

    There is really nothing wrong with Boras doing his job. His job and his family’s livelihood is to get the best possible deal for his clients. And he devised a way to do it, he outworked his competition. He did it by creating those huge binders on statistics that no other agent had the vision or work ethic to create.

    And if the owners are willing to pay for that because they often don’t research the negative aspects of the player to counteract that binder, then what is wrong with that?

    And then there are two other factors that actually work in harmony with each other. They are the owners willing to pay and the players union who often and behind the scenes pressure their players to take the best money offer on the table. Both of these sides who are often opponents actually work together indirectly and agents take advantage of that. CC would have gotten a ton of crap from the union if he took a smaller offer to play on the West Coast, especially after the Yankees increased their offer by 20M. The out clause helped but the union would have been all over him if he took the lesser offer.

    Boras gets so much crap for what he does but honestly, if you were a budding baseball player which agent would you choose?

    And this is my take on the Phils. I really like the Ibanez deal but I do think we should have offered Manny 3 yr deal at market rate. I mean our core is in their prime and won’t be around forever. Why not go all in and sign Manny? And I don’t mean pay $100M for three years but be competitive. Did anyone see how he ranks with Ruth, Aaron, Mays, et al? That is sick.

  30. Geoff

    December 21, 2008 at 9:48 pm

    Boras actually told the nationals theyd have to pay EXTRA because they suck…i dont believe theyre a real contender either. basically, either they take less money and go to the orioles, or come crawling back to the red sox begging.

  31. psujoe

    December 21, 2008 at 9:56 pm

    I would love to see Boston reduce their offer now that the Angels are out of it, but they won’t. I think the Angels will bit the bullet and go after Manny now for a lot less years, but still huge dollars.

    I mentioned trading Howard to Boston for Youkilis and Lester. Would the Red Sox trade us Youkilis, Lester and some prospects for Howard and Myers? I really want to move Myers for something this year.

  32. Geoff

    December 21, 2008 at 10:09 pm

    I agree to an extent. Myers is so gone. And that makes his 12mm one year salary actually movable. The red sox are talking extension with youkilis, and i think its a bad idea to trade ryan howard before you have to.

    the problem is that howard/myers for lester/youkilis is the type of trade that will never even come close to happening. those players dont match up in value. if youre trading myers to the red sox youd be getting clay bucholz back, not lester. lester is untouchable basically.

    get the most out of him and then if youre not going to resign him then wait until his last year, at the trade deadline, and move him. yorue basically saying then that they have two more years to win another championship with ryan howard at the helm before going in a different direction.

    for now though, im ok with shopping myers. but its going to be hard to find someone who will give up a rotation piece for a more expensive rotation piece in myers. its doable but not easy by any stretch

  33. chris

    December 21, 2008 at 10:16 pm

    matt you basically made a more educated point of exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you, I went to frankford. I have terrible grammer and never learned to write but I do know how to formulate an opinion on my own aside from what’s the writers say and what these people believe like niave people believe as truth. Ps frankford never taught me spelling either!

  34. Matt Kwasiborski

    December 21, 2008 at 10:46 pm

    Chris- have a few beers before you post and you will be fine, at least, my best posts (can’t wait to see where Jeff Parret is ranked in the Top 100), came after some beers or wine.

    My post is a little anti-union, and being from Fishtown, that may mean ex-communication.

    Seriously though Boras is doing his job. If you were in his place, you would do the same thing. And even if you aren’t, you gotta do what is best for your customers and you, bottom line. And Boras simply outworked his competition or discoverd another strategy. He is a cold-hearted business person but hey, it is business, nothing personal.

  35. bigbobster

    December 21, 2008 at 11:25 pm

    What bothers me about the escalating salaries is this: how can any team other than Yanks, Mets and Sox keep a core group of all-stars for four years or more? It started to bother me 12 years ago when the Expos clearly had a talented team of young players, but couldn’t keep any of their stars…is that ownership being cheap or a business needing to overcharge its customers to pay for a better product? The Phils could be the exception, but I don’t see Howard getting 25 mil per year from this organization. A shame.

  36. clktwr

    December 21, 2008 at 11:40 pm

    Matt, you’re comments are only anti- Baseball union, cause a true union, you get paid the same no matter what you do, from hitting forty eight homeruns to guy who riding the bench then you have a true union, but that is the problem the Baseball Players Association, basicall yelled at CC for not taking the Yankees offer originally, and ever since A-Rod cried not to go Boston, the MLBPA as not been same.

    Now, the question is are the Phillies truly a “big-market” team, hmm let’s look at this, you sell out over half of your home games in one season, one of your owners sells his tobacco business and doesn’t reinvested into the club, the Phils are a “big-market” team with “small-market” owners, until these ownership is removed or bought out, the Phillies are the new Kansas City Athletics, meaning the teams that will spend will take are good players.

  37. clktwr

    December 21, 2008 at 11:42 pm

    Or the Major-League farm team

  38. psujoe

    December 22, 2008 at 12:23 am

    Bigbobster, invest in younger prospects. the Phillies latin american scouting budget is terrible. baseball and Hockey teams have the good young players on the hook longer than football and basketball prior to FA. That’s the ticket. Take advantage of it!

    I don’t know the ins and outs of “signing out of your alloted slot”, but sounds like the big boys ignore this. Help me out here guys. Screw the big boys. Let’s do it also. Rules either govern everyone or no one.

    Geoff. Thanks for the post your logic makes sense.

  39. Jason B

    December 22, 2008 at 12:25 am

    Tim.. Are you suggesting that any player could make 35 mil/yr?!? That’s absolutly ridiculous. I’m not one to cry over big money being given out to ball players or any pro athelete for that matter, but that is just crazy! Can you imagine what ticket prices would be if players start making those crazy amounts of money? For the sake of my season tickets, I hope the Phillies don’t go big market, if big market means spending 35 mill/yr for any player. Hell, I wouldn’t pay that for a cloned version of Babe Ruth!

  40. Bruce

    December 22, 2008 at 4:41 am

    The Phillies ARE a big market city paying small market salaries. The right thing to do is to sign Howard and Hamels to long term contracts NOW while they are affordable.

  41. NJ

    December 22, 2008 at 9:57 am

    Howard affordable, funny Bruce! The Phils are pretty competitive with the salary and are not paying small market salaries, the Phils are paying for mistakes which has put pressure on their ability to sign guys long-term.

    Howard is un-signable long-term, short of a deal around what Tex signs for he will test the market. Hamels is signable but this myth of guys being cheap because their young is completely wrong, their arbitration years may be relitavely cheap but a long-term deal means escolating salary in the later arb and FA years and a players agent will always want the high figure of a recent signing he projects his client at in those years. Hamels is signable long-term but it’s a tough deal to make.

  42. Chris L

    December 22, 2008 at 9:57 am

    Based on market size, the Phils should be between the 6th and 10th highest salary.

    NYY, BOS, NYM, LAA, CHC and LAD biggest

    HOU, SF, CHW, PHI and TEX next

    STL, BAL, WAS, ATL and perhaps SD close behind

    Even with that being said, the last 15 of WS champs show that a majority of the roster needs to be made of of players brought up through your own system or at least traded for as prospects – even the Yankee teams that won in the 90s had a homegrown core (Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Williams, Pettite, etc) if the Phils invest in scouting and signing quality picks then get the right FA (sometimes big $ sometimes not) they will continue to thrive

  43. NJ

    December 22, 2008 at 10:00 am

    nicely said Chris

  44. Don M

    December 22, 2008 at 12:29 pm

    I kinda disagree with the line “I think we can argue pretty easily that Howard’s career has been more impressive.” Howard has been a defensive nightmare in his career, while Tex is a 2 time Gold Glove winner..

    If they were both Free Agents right now, I strongly believe that Teixeira would be the one teams were going after, and Howard would be the consolation prize.

    Tex’s games break out to a 5.5 year career:
    He averages .290, 37 HRs, 123 RBIs
    Hits .309 vs LHP, .281 vs RHP

    Howard’s games break out to a 3.5 year career:
    He averages .279, 50 HR, 143 RBIs
    Hits .231 vs LHP, .304 vs RHP

  45. Chuck P

    December 22, 2008 at 1:04 pm

    I have been without a computer for three days and I’m going through withdrawal… I don’t know how I would make it through 8 hours on Christmas Monday without this website. These are all great posts… even drunken Frankford Chris makes great points. It’s great that this site is really about our opinions. Tim does a great job of creating the forum and I appreciate his efforts.

    I do think that the Union plays a huge part in all of this. Pressuring players to take bigger contracts to help their case for future contracts… it makes it very hard to blame the players. I don’t blame the owners because it’s their money at risk. I mean, if this downturn affects baseball and the Steinbrenners of the world are caught with a ridiculous mortgage on a new stadium and millions in luxury taxes (for going over the cap) then they could easily lose a fortune. There are no guarantees and they have a business plan. Like it or not, that’s their prerogative… baseball could do a better job of creating parity with a cap (like the NFL does) but I don’t know if that’s what we want. At the end of the season, you’ll likely always see the big market teams at the top of their divisions (over the course of a long season, purchased talent will win games) but there will always be playoff teams like Tampa and Philadelphia that have solid homegrown talent and hometown pride. Those David/Goliath battles are good for baseball… BOS/NY rivalries are also good for baseball. It stinks when we lose a player like Ryan Howard because we can’t afford the price tag… with talented agents (say what you want, Boras knows how to get his clients paid) and a union that discourages loyalty, it’s tough to imagine that will change. I wish that our owners were more aggressive sometimes but for this year we are the World Champions… living proof that even the sun shines on a dog’s ass occasionally.

  46. Ntech2k

    December 22, 2008 at 2:12 pm

    You don’t root for a baseball team anymore; you root for a patch and a payroll that may buy your brand some talent. We might just as well all play fantasy baseball … pick your guys and let the probabilities roll. There’s just as much excitement in that as trying to get behind a rotating band of highly-paid entertainers.

  47. Don M

    December 22, 2008 at 2:28 pm

    Just to get back on this one..

    Would anyone really rather have Ryan Howard than Mark Teixiera on the Phillies right now?

  48. Geoff

    December 22, 2008 at 2:45 pm

    not at the price that boras is asking…

  49. Chuck P

    December 22, 2008 at 4:46 pm

    Ryan Howard has finished in the top 2 in RBI, HR and HR/AB in the NL in his first full seasons… he is the best run producer in the NL… he strikes out and botches short hops… so what? We need a guy that can drive in runs and he does that. Tex is an all around great player but I would take rather see Howard’s name on the lineup card batting fourth. Three years from now, Howard may slow down (a la Cecil Fielder) but when he’s on, he’s capable of carrying a team… you can’t say that about a guy who hits for average, plays solid defense and hits 30 HR in a season.

  50. Ryan

    December 22, 2008 at 5:34 pm

    anybody who dumps that kind of money on Mark teixiera is a complete fool. that’ is just straight up insanity. that is definitely not the way to build a contender.

  51. Lewisauce

    December 22, 2008 at 7:37 pm

    Baseball needs a salary cap, pure and simple.

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  53. Bruce

    December 23, 2008 at 3:11 am

    Hey Don M, Howard was MVP on his team this year and nearly won his 2nd NL MVP award. No one came close to Howard in HRs and RBIs in the NL. I wonder if Teixiera won an MVP?

    As Don noted: Teixiera averages .290, 37 HRs, 123 RBIs and…..
    Howard averages .279, 50 HR, 143 RBIs. No contest. I want Howard. And reading what Teixiera’s agent is demanding for his client, Howard would have been cheaper to sign to a multi-year contract last year and still this year.

  54. Phillies Phan SC

    December 23, 2008 at 11:29 am

    I do not think Boras alone is the issue, nor is there ONE issue. I had to laugh though as I read the posts because everyone if you read all the posts in order, by the end, there are multiple problems but no one to blame. That is good around the Holidays though, looking at the good side LOL.

  55. Don M

    December 23, 2008 at 12:56 pm

    MVP is award that is voted on by baseball writers.. you can look at the stats and call them “MVP” type numbers, but that is like saying a player is better because he has more All-Star game appearances… it just doesn’t matter that much.

    Tex would be a swtich-hitting power hitter, and while not quite the league-leader that Howard is, he still ranks 6th in RBIs with 121, and tied for 14th in HRs with 33

    all while hitting .308, and he’s a Gold Glove 1b…

    I’m just saying if they were both Free Agents, and you could get them both for the same price.. I’d go after Teixiera over Howard

  56. Chuck P

    December 23, 2008 at 1:38 pm

    This is an interesting debate… give me Howard. How many guys are going to hit 1 HR every 11 AB? One… Tex is more consistent and plays better defense, undoubtedly, but Howard is a game changer. There are only one or two players in MLB that I would take over Howard (and one of them is on our team):

    Pujols
    Hanley (premier defensive position)
    Utley (premier defensive position)
    A-Rod… and his circus

    Under consideration…
    Josh Hamilton (will be a monster)
    Ryan Braun

  57. Don M

    December 23, 2008 at 2:08 pm

    One of things that plagues this team every single year is the same thing that many claimed plagued our farm system RISK-REWARD players..

    I think that you add a David Wright, Ryan Bruan, Mark Teixeira to our team insteaf of Howard, and maybe you don’t get as many HRs, but you also don’t get the side retired on K’s in the 8th innings of a close game, etc..

    That said, I can’t wrap my head around the fact that a team might give Tex the 3rd highest contract in baseball history, behind the 1st, and then the 2nd ARod contract..

  58. Chuck P

    December 23, 2008 at 3:04 pm

    Plagued this team every year… we did win the WS, didn’t we? 2008 was Howard’s third season in the league, right? And We will be going for our third straight NLE division crown in 2009… no team in the NL has scored more total runs than the Phillies over the past two seasons and no single player is more responsible for that production that Ryan Howard. You can’t ask for much more than that.

  59. Don M

    December 23, 2008 at 4:48 pm

    My point is that we’ve had the talent for a few years now, and its tough to pull away in the NL East when you can’t sustain long win streaks.. the Phillies have made it harder on themselves than it needed to be in the past few years, and you have to blame that on inconsistent offense..

    The Phillies had a great September because of Howard.. who didn’t do much in the playoffs.. If it wasn’t for Ruiz, Werth we don’t win the World Series last season.

    I understand the arguement for both players between Tex and Howard.. what I can’t understand is that some consider Howard such a better player, as though its not even close.. There are numerous 1b that would probably improve our team with their better defense, and ability to make contact, which moves baserunners along… maybe not driving in as many runs as Howard, but doing much more all-around..

    Pujols, Teixiera, Berkmann would probably make us a better all-around TEAM than we are with Howard hitting 4th

  60. Chuck P

    December 23, 2008 at 5:13 pm

    I am playing devil’s advocate a little bit, Don. Tex is a great player… any team would be lucky to have either one of them and they are very close. I think that Howard gets a bad rap in this city (I’m white… yes, I think that race plays a part in his reputation). I prefer Howard and his raw strength for this team and this park. HOWEVER that’s right now and here. I’m not sure that Howard’s worth the type of contract that he’ll command… History tells us that, as a big man, he’ll hit a wall. He’s too big and too immobile to expect him to remain healthy and keep pace. If you could assure me that he could keep pace (strikeouts and all), I would say that he is emphatically worth the coin. You can’t deny the man has been one of the best players in the game… will he and is he worth it is an entirely different argument.

  61. NJ

    December 23, 2008 at 5:29 pm

    Tex is a better player than Howard, sure when you compare the numbers as above Howard comes up on top but he isn’t a player you can rely on. Tex is a very professional player dedicated to improving and though he doesn’t have Howards upside and it’s undeniable Howards ceiling when he’s on a streak as Don points out we’d win more games with a Tex and we’d be up there with Boston year on year if we had Pujols.

    Again there’s no doubting Howards ability but there is doubt over his commitment to the game and becoming a better player, he seems content to be a swing for the fences slugger and his fundementals at the plate are nothing short of aweful.

    Tex has done himself a dis-service, you can understand why a player puts Boras on his team but the guy is hurting his clients names. Aparently it went un-noticed until today that only 1 Boras client has signed this off-season, I swear the guy could literally screw himself without even realising.

  62. Geoff

    December 23, 2008 at 5:38 pm

    Yankkes signed Tex to 8yr.180mm deal….

    thats totally, totally disgusting and sickening. i didnt think i could hate them more than i already do…theyre without a doubt nwo, the number one, most hated team in my book…in teh end, the red sox probably knew the yankees would take the bait so they offered a big deal daring the yankees to top it…im glad we didnt sign cashman,,,total jack@$$

  63. NJ

    December 23, 2008 at 5:40 pm

    Wow I’m usually pretty repsectful of the Yankees and I don’t believe the game should have a salary cap but the Yankees are screwing with the rules this year. The Brewers now loose that 1st round pick and the league office should really be interceeding because although unlikely they could go sign Manny, Sheets and leave the teams with players they’ve signed with almost worthless draft picks. Suddenly the Brewers look like they’ve been taken to the cleaners for Sabathia.

    The Yankees have to get hit by the luxury tax more than they are now irrelevant of setting a new high. The compensation system needs to be reviewed by the league to stop this kind of abuse of the system.

  64. NJ

    December 23, 2008 at 5:43 pm

    It’;s not Cashman, it’s the Steinbrenner’s, Hank is worse than his father and Cashman’s just cashing in on Yankee dollars like everyone else but it’s not his blueprint.

    The real losers are the taxpayers of New York, aparently the Yankees can;t afford the cost of their new stadium which will cost their fans more yet they can afford to commit what must equate to half the leagues payroll next year.

  65. Geoff

    December 23, 2008 at 5:46 pm

    I agree…theyve gone too far this time…it goes without saying that these contract will probably all backfire on them though…except maybe texeira. the ptichers will become black hole contracts by the time their finished in NY. burnett is almost guaranteed to do that.

    and this is THE main reason why baseball should have a salary cap. it prevents teams from becoming totally and compeltely irresponsible like the yankees are. ALL THREE of these signings are HORRIBLE signings. absolutely stupid.

  66. Don M

    December 23, 2008 at 5:47 pm

    Regardless of the fact that they sign all these players to bad contracts.. is that they have to the balls to do it while asking for taxpayer money to build their new stadium, which in turn will cost too much per ticket for the average taxpayer to go watch games in…

    New York Yankees are the worst franchise in America. I hope to god they miss the playoffs.

  67. Geoff

    December 23, 2008 at 5:48 pm

    i know its the steinbrenners but cashman could quit…or try and say no…

    anybody remember the galactico plan by real madrid in the spanish soccer league? where they signed ALL the premier mercenary soccer players to contracts like this? beckham, ronaldo, etc? well they did not win a single championship with any of those players…the last time they won they had a compeltely different squad….

    same goes with the yankees…

  68. NJ

    December 23, 2008 at 5:49 pm

    What’s unfair is the way it affects the teams loosing their players that rely on the compensation package. I have no problem with the Yankees flexing their financial muscles but what they have done is going to seriously dent other teams ability to re-build like the Blue Jays who’ve lost their number 2 for at most a 3rd round and sandwich pick… The M’s get more for Ibanez.

  69. Don M

    December 23, 2008 at 5:49 pm

    They willingly overpaid by MILLIONS of dollars on each of these contracts..

    They outbid themselves on each one.. the RedSox are said to be targeting Joe Mauer when he becomes a Free Agent..

    This makes baseball suck when the best players leave for the most money, and the most money always comes from 1 of 6 teams.

  70. Geoff

    December 23, 2008 at 5:51 pm

    Yes! thats exactly righht…is it me or does anyone else actually think that doing what they did: getting the taxpayers to pay for a stadium but then signing THREE players for a large portion of the cost of that stadium is actually fraud?

    i mean, thats fraud to me, and in a world where justice prevailed there would be criminal charges filed against the team for this…or ANY pro sports team that behaves liek this…

    why do the taxpayers pay for this while they splash around this money? tahts SO criminal, which is the answer to that question

  71. Griffin

    December 23, 2008 at 5:52 pm

    “The real losers are the taxpayers of New York”

    I agree completely and as one of those taxpayers, I am disgusted, but not surprised. I was beginning to lose a little hatred towards the Yankee$ since they haven’t won in 8 years, but now the burning hatred is back. I despise them.

  72. Griffin

    December 23, 2008 at 5:54 pm

    Geoff, the most criminal aspect of all of this is that Rudy Guiliani didn’t even put the Stadium issue to a public vote. He approved of the two stadiums on his way out and dumped them into Bloomberg’s lap. Rudy is a crook, he couldn’t even win New York in the GOP primary, that’s why he dropped out of the race before super Tuesday.

  73. Geoff

    December 23, 2008 at 5:54 pm

    yeah this system has totally fallen apart…

  74. Geoff

    December 23, 2008 at 6:00 pm

    i concur..theyre all crooks though…you basically ahve to be a criminal to be a bigtime politician now, theyre puppets, but theyre still complicit with all of this criminal activity…

    i mean that illinois governor was openly making criminal deals when you knwo that all bigtime politicians are monitored, but he didnt care…then they act like they dont know him, the obama team, when his chief of staff is the guy that RECRUITED him to run for governor in the first place…

    but thats not reallly news…theyre all criminals…

  75. Chuck P

    December 23, 2008 at 6:07 pm

    Wow… unfathomable. The Yankees paid almost $30 million in luxury tax last season. What will that number look like this year?

    I don’t get how the Jays, Brewers picks get pushed back… how does that happen?

  76. Geoff

    December 23, 2008 at 6:09 pm

    well, hey, at least the phillies signed gary majewski to a minor league contact…

  77. Griffin

    December 23, 2008 at 6:09 pm

    Chuck P, the Jays lost Burnett so they were going to receive some team’s first round pick. Since the Yankee$ also signed Sabathia and Teixeira, the Blue Jays will now receive the Yanks 3rd round pick, the Brewers will get their 1st rounder and the Angels their 2nd rounder.
    So the Blue Jays lost A.J. Burnett and now all they’ll get out of it is the Yankees’s 3rd rounder (since the arbitration system has Sabathia and Tex ranked higher than Burnett).

  78. NJ

    December 23, 2008 at 6:12 pm

    Apparently it’s the Angles that get the first rounder, having the pick delayed a year would be bad enough but this is just wrong. The commisioners office needs to act because the sandwich pick and a reduced compensation pick for a type A player is wrong, the system has been grossy abused.

  79. Geoff

    December 23, 2008 at 6:15 pm

    they need to make them pay like an insane amount of luxury tax and then GIVE it to the teams that lost those players, or give them to the lowest payroll teams or to teh THOUSANDS of americans starving everyday because they have no job and no food…

    i dont even liek socialism, but you have to punish monopilies because that destroys competition and the industry as a whole, which costs people their jobs and livelihoods as an effect of that…its baseball, yeah, but the people that will suffer are the marginal players who never made much money anyway…

  80. Jeimmy

    December 23, 2008 at 6:27 pm

    Im a die hard met fan, and i think we can all agree on one thing, we all f***ing hate the yankees

  81. Chuck P

    December 23, 2008 at 6:35 pm

    I have a problem blaming the owners… it’s their business plan and their money that is at risk. I do hate the Yankees… I don’t know how they can afford it… they’re obviously making bank. Baseball needs to make sure that the structure is the best that it can be… it stinks to end up with a third round pick for a Type A… you want the penalties/taxes to make it difficult for a team to buy a championship but you don’t want to kill a franchise. It’s a difficult balance. In the end, buying a championship hasn’t worked recently so we just have to hope that it doesn’t work this year.

    50% of CBP was financed with taxpayer dollars (just like Yankee stadium) but their stadium cost 5x as much as CBP… if you are a taxpayer, you have a right to be upset but it’s not uncommon to build stadiums with taxpayer dollars.

  82. psujoe

    December 23, 2008 at 6:42 pm

    Tex gets 8/$180 million from the Yankees. Un friggin believable.

  83. NJ

    December 23, 2008 at 6:49 pm

    Aparently due to their own player losses the only time Yankees don’t pick in the coming draft will be the third round, the system is broken… Forget the spending spree the compensation for the 4th highest paid player in basball cannot be a sandwich and a 2nd.

  84. Geoff

    December 23, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    This is deinitely not a fair financial system at all in baseball, in many ways, it reflects that of America….

  85. Jim R.

    December 23, 2008 at 6:54 pm

    That contract is absolutely absurd. Sooner or later, the salaries in the game have to hit a ceiling. It’s just a shame that if that ceiling doesn’t come voluntarily, it may mean the death of the game. Because when the salaries become too high, and people get sick of the salaries, and nobody can afford to pay anything, the game dies

  86. NJ

    December 23, 2008 at 6:54 pm

    It’s not the spending, free market baseball is better than the salary cap crippled hockey resulting in teams you don’t even recognise anymore. The problem is the system in place to protect the other teams.

  87. Geoff

    December 23, 2008 at 7:03 pm

    Actually, the NHL is the most competetively balanced league right now. Plenty of teams in the mix, and plenty of good hockey to watch. I love baseball, but there are some teams that are unwatchable when you have no rooting interest. A lot of teams actually.

  88. Geoff

    December 23, 2008 at 7:05 pm

    i mean..if you DONT have a cap the salaries may nto reach some natural ceiling with the rate of inflation being what it is and growing at the rates that it has been growing and ticket prices going up and up and up. if you dont make some simple rules here then the game will die, without a doubt.

  89. Geoff

    December 23, 2008 at 7:06 pm

    remember, this is baseball, not the government. msot of the time, when the government does something it ends up being really really bad. in baseball or pro sports, its ok to impose regulations from time to time…

  90. Mike B.

    December 23, 2008 at 7:32 pm

    I’d hate to see the game die, but I fear Jim R. and Geoff may be correct. Honestly spending so much money on people to play a game is sickening. I’m really close to just not watching because of that. I refuse to watch ANY Yankees games. And I love baseball. I never turn down a game if I see it on TV. But seeing this is sickening, and I can’t stomach watching the Yankees and Scott Boras drive up contract values and ruin the game of baseball. True, the Yankees aren’t the only team to partake in these practices, but they, along with Boston, seem to be the worst offenders. Isn’t it ironic that the team who once played in the House That Ruth Built may ultimately be part of the cause of the death of baseball? That’s a shame, especially because of all that history which that franchise possesses.

  91. Chuck P

    December 24, 2008 at 9:45 am

    I don’t think that the game will die… I think that baseball has made a huge resurgence since the strike year. It took a lot to win back the fans but they have done it. It doesn’t appeal as much to the older generations… baseball purists… but I love it. It starts with the park. The ballpark is a place where I can take my family and friends for a good time… win or lose, we’re having fun.

    You can have parity and salary caps if you want but I like these storylines. If the Yankees are spending this much they must be making much more. If that’s the case, why not spend it on top tier players? I mean, where else would you expect them to spend it? They could take that money and head to the bank but instead they’re investing it in winning. Again, the system has to make sure that teams can’t buy championships and every team can be competitive regardless of market size but judging by the results, the system is not that far off.

  92. clktwr

    December 24, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    Geoff, you’re right Hockey is the most competive pro sport right now, especially after the All-Star game, when teams are rushing to get to the playoffs, thanks to that Salary Cap, it actually saved teams like Sabres, Hurricanes, Ducks, alot of the small market teams in the league. I wonder if baseball created a fair salary cap, unlike this unfair revenue sharing program, would teams like Kansas City, San Diego, Florida ( lack of interest, or truly small market), Washington, Baltimore, Pittsburgh win the World Series, much like Carolina and Ottawa did with the NHL, cause they would have the money to attract more players, when teams like the Yankees and Red Sox would be dumping salary.

    Chuck P, the Yankees for years in the eighties weren’t spending so that where all of the cash is coming from, they banked it all then, much like Red Sox, and there will never be true parity in baseball until the likes of Steinbrenners and Henrys are forced not to spend like they do. it’s a sad day when a team like the Nationals are used just to get an extra year in a contract/ no trade clause.

  93. NateB

    December 25, 2008 at 3:32 am

    Is there a place online to protest the Yankees or the lack of salary caps in baseball? Sure there’s been a new World Series champion each year, but small market teams like Kansas City, Pittsburg, Baltimore, etc. haven’t been good for decades! When’s that gonna change Bud?

  94. NJ

    December 25, 2008 at 7:23 am

    Do you really want to be told how much your team can spend? I think it sets an unprecidented change that will greatly affect the way teams do business and you’ll see so much personnel change to accomodate the cap you won’t even recognise the teams anymore.

    The penalties for abusing the free agency system should be greatly increased, taking away free market baseball is too far. Remember though it’s the CBA that will be the turning point (or not)

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