Commentary: We are all crazy – Phillies Nation

Commentary: We are all crazy

Toronto Blue Jays pitcher Roy Halladay watches from the dugout during a baseball game against the Boston Red Sox in Toronto on Friday, July 17, 2009. (AP Photo/The Canadian Press, Darren Calabrese)Crazy can be good, crazy can be bad.  But lump us all into the same boat right now. What I mean by that statement is, Phillies fans, generally speaking, are getting into crazy territory.

On one hand, fandom is at an all time high, and I couldn’t be happier for this city, this franchise, this great group of people who follow this team inside and out everyday.  We pack the house nightly, spending our hard earned money on a team that knows how to entertain.

On the other hand, we’ve become unhinged over a player; a man who plays in country just north of here.  The Roy Halladay Extravaganza has nearly reached its fever pitch, and people everywhere are constantly refreshing their browser waiting, hoping, for an update.  I’m just as guilty as the rest, perhaps because my “job” is to write about all things Phillies, and I’m somewhat ashamed of my actions.

As far as being a fan, I can’t say I’ve enjoyed myself more than I have over the last year.  As I walked into Citizens Bank Park on Tuesday for game two of the Cubs series, the stadium appeared to be a giant magnet.  People were being sucked through the gates by forces foreign to them.  Forty-five thousand strong all pulled in by a team that gives us reason to care.

But do we care a bit too much?  The constant trade proposals by armchair GM’s has hit a new level that may be unparalleled.  It certainly shows that the fan is immersed in the day-to-day happenings of the organization, but it also reflects the relative obsession over one player.  Over and over in my head, and occasionally on a pad of paper, I’ve written down Halladay’s name and below it the names of rotating Phillies farmhands that may be involved.  Sickness? You betcha.

Do I want to see Roy Halladay in red pinstripes?  Who doesn’t.  But, do I spend far too much time on the subject? Guilty as charged. Only a few more days until the madness subsides and we get back to breaking down spray charts and how Chan Ho Park fares with runners on and two out in high leverage situations in the month of August.

We might all be crazy, but at least we’re crazy together, rooting for the same craziness in the same crazy ballpark.

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  1. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 8:35 am

    Pat – We all want Halladay and we’re all consumed by it (or should be)- and its a lotta fun. I was at work yesterday and making a presentation and I lost my train of though. Beacuse I was thinking about Roy. Mark me down as “guilty” Go Ruben Go.

    The Dipsy

  2. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 8:37 am

    You can NEVER care too much. It is what makes Philly fans some of the best in the world. We cheer, boo, heckle and praise. We do it all because we are behind our teams, in every sport (yes even the Sixers count).

    I just want to know one way or the other what is going to happen, just like every one else!


  3. Lou

    July 24, 2009 at 8:38 am

    I concur. I teach during the school year. I have plenty of time in the Summer. I only teach in the evenings now. I have been a fan since ’64
    and this is exciting. I am constantly checking all the blogs and creating
    trade prospects in my head for Roy. If what I have read is true, Roy seems to be a man of good character and a willing mentor like Jamie .
    I am all for that.

  4. Crane Kick

    July 24, 2009 at 8:46 am

    I’m Halladizzy. That was lame. Sorry.

  5. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 9:06 am

    Im guessing people have commented already, but heard last night, and then read this morning that Amaro said Drabek “Is not an Untouchable”

    … not like this is or isn’t breaking news, but its just the GMs getting a feel for each other through the media.

    I’ve been saying all along that I think it will cost ONE of Happ or Drabek
    plus ONE of Taylor or Brown

    …and I guess Jason Donald, and something else.. which is a lot, but you look at your chance of winning with our

    I think the easy winner is our current roster with the addition of Halladay gives us the better chance at a World Series title

  6. PhillyPhaninIndy

    July 24, 2009 at 9:13 am

    I agree and think we should get Halladay and win the World title again this year. Although its obviously no guarantee, a bird in the hand, well you know.

  7. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 9:40 am

    So now the price (acc to Heyman) is

    Drabek or Happ
    Taylor or Brown
    plus (my guess) one of Donald/Marson/Carrasco (though if theyre including Drabek then they should protect Carrasco at least)
    filler like Kendrick/Carpenter

    thats pretty steep. Two top 25 prospects is a lot. JA Happ isnt getting traded so it would be Drabek that goes. Its not an option to trade Happ because he is already a known quantity. If forced to choose, Drabek would be traded. The OF’s are a wash in my eyes because Theyre both blocked so youre going to have to trade one of them.

  8. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 9:42 am

    sTILL, Cliff Lee isnt that much worse than Halladay so it may be a good idea to save SOME prospects by going after him.

  9. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 9:54 am

    wait, so what is the news that Heyman is saying..

    ONE of the pitchers, ONE of the Outfielders.. PLUS other guys, right?

    Two top 25 prospects is a lot, but Roy Halladay is a lot… better than almost any other pitcher in baseball … Ruben will do it, he knows they can win now and next year with this team … get ready for Halladay, the countdown is T-minus ONE WEEK

  10. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 9:56 am

    I think till happen by Tues or Wed or else he wont get traded at all…becuase hell set the market for the rest of the starters so it HAS to be the first big move in terms of starting pitching.

  11. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 10:02 am

    Thats what I’ve been saying the package will be the whole time.. because to get a player as good as Halladay.. you have to give up prospects as good as Drabek, Taylor, etc..

    You have to make the trade worth it for the Blue Jays

    They need a SS, so Jason Donald is probably gone..

    I would like to keep Marson if we can

  12. Ben

    July 24, 2009 at 10:03 am

    not sure if we can’t move happ. just to play devils advocate, happ is really projected to be a solid #3 starter for most of his career. drabek is projected to be a #2 or better, and is really not too far away from the bigs.

    then again, drabek already has had major surgery.

    whatever, i can deal with either of them going, the doc will cure all our ailments.

  13. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 10:06 am

    I heard on DNL last night that Halladay is not willing to negotate a contract extension. He wants to test the free agent market. Hopefully this changes when he experiences playing baseball in a true baseball town.

    Does this change anyone’s opinion? I believe we get 2 picks if he walks after next season.

    I say you still do it because they have a shot at 2 rings in the next 2 years. We can use the 2 picks to plug up a couple gaps left by the trade.

    This is why Ruben gets paid the big bucks…..

  14. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 10:12 am

    Drabek MIGHT be able to pitch in the rotation next year… then again he MIGHT NOT.

    so give him up.. give me a Starting Rotation of:

    Roy Halladay, Cole Hamels, Joe Blanton, JA Happ, and Jamie Moyer/Pedro Martinez

    and I’ll show you my tickets stubs for the World Series in 2009

  15. The Original Chuck P

    July 24, 2009 at 10:12 am

    Hmm… haven’t we been saying this all along?

    Listen guys, it’s obvious that mix will get it done. The question is, “Do they need to give up all of that to get it done?”

    How badly do the BJ’s need to dump salary and what else is really on the table from other teams?

    Everything that we have heard so far has been posturing… everything…

    I feel like the Phillies might be able to get the deal done without Happ/Drabek… if the BJ’s play the hard line, that’s fine with me and I’m ok with sending them Drabek but it would be really nice to get this deal done without him and you have to explore every option that might be out there… patience, Rube.

    Thought that this was interesting… Kyle Blanks hit a 2 run homer in yesterday’s game. He was born in the same hospital as Jamie Moyer (my wife works there)… thought that was interesting.

    They should have pulled Ho in the 9th… his line would have been 2/3 ip with 1 total pitch.

  16. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 10:13 am

    Yes it does. If he wants to test the waters that lowers his value. To me, that means substituting one of those two top 25 propsects theyre demanding with a B prospect.

  17. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 10:16 am

    You gotta play hardball with Riccardi. If his guy isnt going to re-sign with you then you make him lower the price. You dont let him walk all over you just because its Roy Halladay.

  18. Philly Texan

    July 24, 2009 at 10:17 am

    the reason we can’t trade Happ is because it hurts our current rotation. Drabek might be a better pitcher in the long run. But if we trade for Halladay, it means we’re really going for it this year and next, when we’ll need Happ in the rotation as a #4 or #5.

    I read in the Inky this morning that multiple sources are saying the Jays want Drabek AND Happ AND Brown/Taylor.

    Has anyone seen this reported elsewhere?

    If the Jays really want that much, it would probably kill the deal…..

  19. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 10:18 am

    That says the asking price is Drabek AND Happ AND more…

    my response: HAHAHAHAHAH – if thats the case then we should start calling the Indians.

  20. psujoe

    July 24, 2009 at 10:18 am

    Ruben don’t cave!

    Drabek, (Brown or taylor), Donald, Marson, prospect pitcher(not Carrasco and not Knapp) for

    Halladay and Downs.

  21. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 10:19 am

    Now, back to the craziness: I’d like to keep Marson, too. Yesterday I heard on TV that currently, only one starting catcher has played less than 300 (or 400?) games in the minors before going to big club full-time (Mauer). For that premium position, it is normal for players to stay in the minors for a while, so having Marson there waiting for his time is ok. I’d previously thought that he simply wasn’t as good as I thought because he wasn’t already in the bigs.

  22. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 10:23 am

    Philly Texan: Wow…that sounds ridiculous. I’d NEVER pull the trigger on that!

  23. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 10:26 am

    all of the writers in Philly keep saying HAPP + DRABEK + BROWN + …

    meanwhile, all of the guys in the national media know the Phillies shouldn’t and won’t give up the world for a pitcher.

    If you trade Happ, your overall rotation is still better.. but you still don’t have a complete starting rotation.. its hard to be better than Happ has been this year, so getting rid of him will plug one hole, but open another.

    Catcher is such a demanding position that you have to be 100% sure of the guy you put back there.. Marson’s strong suit is his offense.. which is why he will stay in the minors until his defense catches up … or if at some point his offense is THAT MUCH BETTER than Carlos Ruiz .. but Ruiz has a firm hold on the job this year, and probably going into next season too.

  24. The Original Chuck P

    July 24, 2009 at 10:27 am

    Type A = two picks as compensation (the purchasing team’s first round pick and a supplemental pick)… I actually thought there were two picks PLUS two supplemental picks…

    I don’t think that you want to talk extension until later next year. His contract is reasonable and you never know what might happen between now and next year.

  25. Philly Texan

    July 24, 2009 at 10:28 am

    I agree. No way we can trade Drabek and Happ — and adding Brown in there just makes it ludicrous.

    If we’re going to trade Drabek — and sacrifice part of the future — then Happ has to be untouchable so we can maximize the next two years.

    I hope the Inquirer story is just posturing by the Jays.

    Anyone seen it reported anywhere else?

  26. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 10:30 am

    The Blue Jays would rather trade Halladay and get a few good prospects, then hold out for the extra guy..

    Halladay will be here in a week.. mark my words

    since we get TWO chances at the World Series with Halladay under team control, I would definitely make this deal.. who cares if he leaves after 2010.. worry about that when the time comes.

    We have a chance to put together the greatest string of seasons in Phillies history.. you have to go after the titles while they are in reach

  27. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 10:43 am

    DAMN IT BRETTY MYERS! Why did you have to get injured?!??!?!?!?!

  28. Matthew

    July 24, 2009 at 10:44 am

    Did everyone in this city forget that Kenny Powers is a free agent?

  29. The Original Chuck P

    July 24, 2009 at 10:47 am

    Ruiz is going to be the catcher for a long time… I think that’s clear. He’s starting to find his stroke in the big leagues (he once led the minor leagues in HR’s so he can hit) and his defense is up there with the best catchers in baseball. I believe that he will be an all-star next year… this year, Manuel has vocally commended Ruiz’ efforts to study and be a better big league hitter. Ruiz was born to catch.

    I like Marson but as long as Ruiz is here Marson’s path to the majors is blocked.

  30. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 10:49 am

    How about a big FU to Riccardi for that one? LMFAO…..there is NO FRIGGIN way that they are getting Happ AND Drabek. One or the other probably but not both. Plus Brown AND more…..LOL.

  31. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 10:49 am

    It’s got to take Riccardi and the Jays being willing to get a deal done now, it’s a great disservice to Halladay that the Jays and potential suitors haven’t even exchanged names yet so all our talk has really been for nothing because the Jays don’t even know who they want. Riccardi has been grandstanding and letting the baseball media run wild surely hoping that tactic would magically create several top prospects rich packages from different team.

    The Phils are the only team with the top-prospects, major league ready prospects capable of taking on Halladay’s salary. Personally I don’t think considering the market the Phils should give up one of Happ/Drabek AND one of Brown/Taylor considering the other prospects that would be headed to Toronto, but I fully recognise my view may be in the minority.

    All I can say is for whatever package it is I hope Halladay’s welcomed with total appreciation for the player he is and given every reason to want to stay in Philly, I hope Toronto fans erect a giant size voodoo doll outside the Rodgers Centre for the Jays fans to show their feelings.

    (Shoddy Shoddy person that Riccardi, Beane’s a critter of a baseball personality who’s earned something, Riccardi’s just a pretty-faced assholic self-aggrandising fool of a disciple…)

  32. The Original Chuck P

    July 24, 2009 at 10:49 am

    Yankees inquired about Cliff Lee… price tag for Lee will be Joba, Hughes plus others.

    Can we stop talking about Cliff Lee??

  33. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 10:50 am

    “We hear that the Blue Jays are sending assistant GM/player personnel Tony La Cava to scout Carlos Carrasco(notes), who is scheduled to pitch Thursday in Georgia against the Gwinnett Braves for the Phillies’ Triple-A team, the Lehigh Valley IronPigs. The right-handed Carrasco is the Philadelphia Phillies’ pitching prospect rated closest to the big leagues and was ranked as the team’s No. 1 pitching prospect the last two years before being supplanted by Kyle Drabek”

  34. Jeff

    July 24, 2009 at 10:52 am

    Your wrong…Halliday can demand a trade at the end of the season. Its in his contract. We can lose him after this year. You cannot give up drabek and happ. Keep happ. Get rid of moyer. You will have a very solid rotation.

  35. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 10:54 am

    Kenny Phucking Powers … has a nice ring to it !!!

  36. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 10:54 am

    I’m definitely not OK with giving up Drabek AND Brown/Taylor AND more prospects… This team is gonna suckkkkkk in 2011+, like the Mets.. older players past their prime falling in 4th place. Yuck.

  37. Philly Texan

    July 24, 2009 at 10:54 am

    Where was that report from?

    If they’re scouting Carrasco at this point — maybe he would be in the deal.

    Drabek, Carrasco, Brown and Kendrick.

    Steep price. But I would make that trade.

  38. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 10:55 am

    Would be very surprised if the Yanks offer up Hughes any time soon, 17 appearances with a 0.74 ERA in 24.1 innings with a .145 batting average against, no way they take that arm out of what would be a weak bullpen without him.

  39. Jeff

    July 24, 2009 at 10:57 am

    Right now who cares about 2011. Utley, Howard, Ibanez, Rollins and the rest of this team has a window for the next 3-5 years. Win now.

  40. Philly Texan

    July 24, 2009 at 10:58 am

    Drabek could be a 20-game winner for the Phils in 2012, and Brown could be hitting .300 and we still could be in third or fourth place. (just like the Indians with Lee and Sizemore). Who knows what will happen.


    I’d rather take a shot at three world series in a row.

  41. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 10:58 am

    The Phillies arent going to give up Carrasco AND Drabek and all that. Their TOP TWO pitching prospects? get outta here man.

  42. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 10:59 am

    Im in the trade for Halladay pool, but Im also in the let’s play hardball pool, as crazy as this makes our fans.

    I concur that no matter what we give up to land Halladay he should and would be welcomed with open arms.

    Halladay will NOT demand a trade after this season. He wants to play for a winner.

    Riccardi will get desperate and we will NOT be trading both Happ and Drabek. That is ridiculous when they will get Drabek OR Happ and Brown, not to mention 2-3 other prospects. As much as I want Halladay, JR will not give both Drabek and Happ.

  43. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 11:01 am

    PhillyTexan: it’s from Yahoo,

    If they end up giving Drabek, they better hang on to Carrasco. Giving up your 2008 Futures Game all-star starter and the 2009 Futures game all-star pitcher in the same deal would be RIDICULOUS. You want to keep at least one of those two so that they can pitch with the Phillies under team control for 5 years or so.

  44. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 11:01 am

    Was about to say that Geoff, those two PLUS Brown… No way! Maybe if the Phils have a team seriously clipping on it’s heels but that’s not the case, Toronto want the kind of package from us no-one can meet because there’s no way in hell the Brewers offer up both Escobar and Gamel.

  45. Miles

    July 24, 2009 at 11:04 am

    If anyone read Jayson Stark’s last Rumblings and Grumblings blog he pointed out that scouts are starting to wonder why Brown is being viewed as having more potential than Taylor. He pointed out that some still think Brown is better because he was the higher pick. I still think the guy to go after here is Zach Duke. The Pirates are trading away everything. I bet we can get Duke for Brown and not much else. I know that gives them concern about righty heavy lineups with all of those lefties, but I still think its a better option if the Halladay price tag doesn’t go down.

  46. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 11:04 am

    That article sounded like Happ AND Drabek to me as well. Forget that. One or the other but not both. As I’ve said all along Happ is my choice to stay with the Phillies. He’s a proven #3(really a #2 this year…and you COULD make a strong case that he’s pitching like an ace right now).

  47. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 11:04 am

    Until I actually hear what names Toronto asks for – which hasnt happened yet – all of this speculation from the local and national media about who the Phils would trade, who the Jays are asking for and how the Phils need to overpay is TOTALLY, COMPLETELY ABSURD.

    Lets just NOT take these speculations as gospel until there are real reports from the media that reveal what the Jays actually asked for.

  48. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 11:04 am

    Oh they can have Drabek AND Carrasco. Just not Drabek and Happ.

    I would do, if needed, Drabek-Carrasco-Brown-Donald… way RAJ will deal Happ and kill the farm.

  49. Miles

    July 24, 2009 at 11:05 am

    Also @Geoff, you have been flipping out every time anyone even suggests trading Happ or Drabek in the last couple weeks, but now its ok for you to suggest that Drabek could be gone? Just checking…

  50. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 11:05 am

    I heard that before about Halladay’s option after this season? But he is under contract for next season at $15.75 Million.. and I haven’t heard anything else about his contract .. if he had the chance to become a Free Agent.. we would have heard about it by now.. and the Red Sox and Yankees, or Dodgers, Cubs, etc would just outbid each other and pay him $20+ Million as a Free Agent

  51. Jeff

    July 24, 2009 at 11:06 am

    I am sure Rueben will do whats in the best interest for this team. He got all our big guys signed including Howard. He brought you Ibanez which has worked out very nicely. He made the switch with Happ. He will not hurt this team and he knows how to do his job. We can guess all day and listen to nobody reporters from yahoo. Its all speculation.

  52. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 11:08 am

    Joe Savery is flying under the radar behind Carrassco…..they have prospects if you trade Drabek-Carrasco.

    With your 1-2-3 of Halladay-Hamels-Happ for the next 2 years (At least) you have time to plug those holes.

  53. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 11:08 am

    I think common sense tells you which players are good enough to land Roy Halladay.. I think the Philadelphia media doesn’t know baseball as much as the National Baseball guys..

    but an offer of Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor, Jason Donald.. and one or two more guys

    for Roy Halladay and a pitcher from the Blue Jays

    could work for everyone

  54. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 11:09 am

    Agree 100% Don M.

  55. Philly Texan

    July 24, 2009 at 11:14 am

    I’ll buy Carrasco’s ticket to Toronto if it gets us Halladay.

    I really have doubts about him. Baseball lore is filled with guys who had great stuff but lacked the makeup to be a big-league pitcher.

    He’s 22 — been in the system for, what, five years? It’s time. The fact that some soft-tossing retread like Lopez got the call-up recently tells me that the Phils have their doubts about Carrasco too.

    Drabek, Carrasco, Brown and Donald or Kendrick.

    Again, it’s steep, but I’d do that deal. We hang on to Taylor and Knapp. (And I read some scouts think Knapp has a higher ceiling than Drabek.)

  56. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 11:15 am

    When it comes to Happ this really is a non-issue if you think when the last time was a guy in the thick of the race for ROY was dealt during that season, can’t recall any myself… Can anyone dispute this?

  57. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 11:15 am

    I’m with Miles on the Zack Duke thing. Offer them Dominic Brown, our top prospect in the whole system, and they’ll probably bite.

    I think that we get carried away thinking that we really need another ace because Hamels is sucking this year… I wonder if people would’ve been this desperate to make this trade otherwise. It’s like we forgot what this guy is capable of, especially in the postseason. He’ll come around –he is showing some signs in his last 2 starts. If this team really wants to win, like last year, we’ll beat whoever pitcher is standing in our way.

  58. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 11:16 am

    Lets see Happ against a real major league baseball lineup tonight before we are ready to crown him as our ACE

    I said yesterday I think his wins as a Starter came against, Washington, San Diego, Florida, Pittsburgh, and some other lousy team..

    He’s pitching great, don’t get me wrong.. but this might be his ceiling for how good he can ever be in his career ?? you just never know.. I think to count on Happ to always be this good would be foolish… to count on Happ as an effective #3, #4 would be the smarter way to go.

    Keith Law (who im not a big fan of) said that in the AL EAST, Happ would be the #5 starter on most of those teams .. which is true.. so lets not pretend like he is Cy Young. Take what he gives you, which right now is better than what Hamels gives you.. .which is why we need Halladay

  59. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 11:17 am

    Thats not a bad deal…id say if that Jays added either one of their LH relievers (Downs, more likely Tallet) or Kevil Millar (RH Pinch HItter perfect for CBP – dead pull hitter)…then thats a good propsoal

  60. Julian

    July 24, 2009 at 11:17 am

    What if Myers never went down and we still made a move for Halladay (highly unlikely)

    Halladay, Hamels, Myers, Blanton, Happ


  61. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 11:20 am

    Its hard to see how hed be a number 5 starter on some of those teams given his performance and his ERA. he shut down the yankees lineup – posada i dont repect at this stage of his career – total bad yankees re-signing wasting money type contract. A-Rod was in the lineup and is worshipped and hailed by everyone (except me)…so shutting down Texeira and those other hitters is no big deal? The guy also threw a CG shutout against the Jays – who have a decent grinding lineup actually.

  62. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 11:20 am

    To answer your question Manny: YES

    How many times has a pitcher of Halladay’s caliber been available to the Phillies?

    It guarantees nothing, but this is the chance this team needs to take (outside of dealing Drabek AND Happ). It is the Phillies chance to erase all the negatives of years past (“we’re a small market team).

    10,000th loss feels like years ago. We can truly call ourselves elite if we do this. We will be up there with the Red Sox and Yankees.

  63. Jeff

    July 24, 2009 at 11:25 am

    Has anyone heard of two prospects by the names of Wood and Prior. How did they work out in the big leagues. Halliday has a track record. Get him..He will love playing in the NL and with an offense that is the best. 5 runs per game for him maybe 22 and he will love it here.

  64. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 11:29 am

    I mentioned yesterday that if Halladay doesn’t happen… that Zach Duke for the cost of Carrasco and Taylor was better than nothing.

    I think Dominic Brown needs to stay put unless we get Halladay or Lee … because he has the CHANCE to be a stud in the future..

    If we don’t go all-in right now, you have to make sure you keep the farm system loaded. Taylor and Carrasco won’t be playing for us next year.. maybe in the 2nd half of next year, but not to start it.. so they can both go if it helps us now..

    I think Happ was on a pitch count vs. the Yankees.. Posada was on the DL, and A-Rod had just returned and was hitting like .200.. Happ looked good. Don’t get me wrong, I like him a lot.. I think people are confusing our confidence in him, with their expectations FOR him …

    I don’t expect him to have this kind of sucess next year, or the year after..
    He will probably be a solid pitcher with an ERA around 4.00 for his career.. which is really, really good.. but not great

  65. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 11:32 am

    Don, I never said I was ready to “crown Happ as our Ace.” I said that THIS year he’s been pitching like an ace right now. Look, it’s obvious that Hamels is having a sub-par year. Blanton has been really good of late. In my book, there really hasn’t been a CLEAR ace this year. You could say that any one of those 3 guys could fill that role, depending on their latest performance. I agree….tonight against the Cards is a big test for J.A. Happ. He sparkles and shines, then he’s probably not going to be traded for sure. He doesn’t and it’s maybe another story.

  66. Jack

    July 24, 2009 at 11:35 am

    Just got a text from a friend of mine saying a deal for Halladay will be finalized by noon. He has updates on his phone, but I can not find it online anywhere. Can some one confirm?

  67. The Original Chuck P

    July 24, 2009 at 11:36 am

    I’ve said this before…

    Drabek probably will be special… but this TEAM is special. We probably won’t have this team in three years when Drabek is hitting his stride… even if Drabek wins 20 games, he’s not enough to win a world series. Maybe Brown and Taylor will be really good but I know for certain that with Halladay this team is the odds on favorites to make it to the WS this year and next. This team deserves the support… they deserve that chance.

    Stand firm, don’t give up any more than you have to but get it done… and I think that Rube shares my viewpoint.

  68. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 11:36 am

    I don’t give a damn about having an “elite” label. Doesn’t take you anywhere.

  69. The Original Chuck P

    July 24, 2009 at 11:45 am

    If we give him half the run support that we give Jamie Moyer, Halladay could win 25 game next year as a Phillie…

  70. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 11:47 am

    Yeah, Original, in three years this team is different in some ways. All teams in this day and age are. But to say that “Drabek’s not enough to win a WS” is a ridiculous statement. How in the he!! do you know that?

    I agree, make a serious effort to get Halladay for now and give the team and all of us a chance at multiple titles. But…..let’s try not to suck in three years, either.

  71. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 11:51 am

    Happ pitches today… Halladay pitches today… I HATE THIS. Please don’t trade Happ!

  72. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 11:53 am

    Drabek’s not enough to win a WS THIS YEAR ….. but the other 90% of our team is..

  73. The Original Chuck P

    July 24, 2009 at 11:54 am

    Actually, you can lump any of our pitchers in there… Hamels has gotten the most run support this year (8.75) with Moyer at 8.52, Blanton at 7.59, Myers at 7.21… JA Happ at 5.74 and CH Park at 4.80 are the only two with limited run support.

    Halladay gets 6.95 RS.

  74. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    Completely off this thread’s topic….but is is not obvious after Andrew Carpenter’s performance last night that we seriously need bullpen help?
    With Romero on the shelf and Lidge always making us wonder what’s going to happen, getting a late inning guy or even a closer (George Sherrill) is absulutely necessary…..maybe just as necessary as Roy Halladay.

  75. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    Well I give a damn about winning another World Series and winning 2 in a row certainly makes us “elite”.

    I think they can win now as is. But I feel the fans and more importantly the core of this team is owed a pitcher of Halladay’s caliber. We have the pieces to do it AND the upper hand. The Jays NEED to trade him or they will get .30 cents of a dollar for him in the offseason or next year. The price of Drabek AND Happ will come down. That is the only way that I nix this is if they want Drabek AND Happ, but that won’t happen.

    Halladay-Hamels-Happ-Blanton-Moyer/Martinez/Lopez sounds pretty damn good to me for the rest of the season. It would be nice to take the pressure off of our 24 year old ace.

    IF Drabek OR Happ plus others become stars, it’s good to know that they won’t hurt us often being that they are in the American League.

    The time is now, not 2011, 12, 13, 14 and so. Right now, 2009. It’s not 2007 anymore, this team knows HOW to win. They know they can win. And Roy Halladay will certainly help make us that “elite” team.


    July 24, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    Whether we get him or not isn’t by greatest concern. The possibility of the Doyers or the Cardinals getting him is what scares me to sleepless nights. 🙂

  77. psujoe

    July 24, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    Cards are ouf of the Halladay sweepsteakes with the pickup of Holladay from Oakland.

    The Athletics and Cardinals have completed a trade that sends outfielder Matt Holliday to St. Louis in exchange for third baseman Brett Wallace, outfielder Shane Peterson and right-handed pitcher Clayton Mortensen, sources confirmed to ESPN The Magazine’s Buster Olney.

  78. george

    July 24, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    just get a deal done already for the guy who cares who you have to give up.

  79. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    To george and all others who share that sentiment- How can a deal get done quickly when Toronto hasn’t even exchanged the names of the players they want…? It’s not the Phils who’ve been dragging their feet on this

  80. psujoe

    July 24, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    Todd, don’t worry about the Cards. They just gave up Wallace. No way they give up more prospects on top of that.

  81. Bruce

    July 24, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    Pat, please don’t make an assumption that all Phillies fans are caught up in the Halladay “madness”. I’m not that “crazy” to be totally consumed and obsessed with every single tidbit of gossip or rumor concerning trade possibilities for Halladay.

    Being a Phillies fan for more than 50 years has taught me that there is something to be said for having cautious skepticism. Being older and wiser, I like to keep it “real” and take a level headed approach to a subject like a possible trade or free agent signing.

    I keep in mind the front office’s past record on payroll commitment and Amaro’s role as GM to maintain his stated limitation on a budget that has already surpassed it’s previous high with this year’s total of $130 million plus. Someone like Halladay would cost $23 million (including the remaining $7 million in 2nd half the season) for 1.5 years that are left on the contract. Amaro has also stated for the record that there are certain prospects that he regards as “untouchable”.

    Considering last year’s world championship success with a rotation of Hamels, Myers, Moyer and Blanton and the current success of this year’s rotation, Amaro likely is not seeing the urgency as fans here seem to think. Amaro’s probable perspective is to see Halladay as a luxury and therefore approach any trade talks with utmost due caution regarding prospects and payroll limitation.

    My bet is that if Halladay decides not to wait for the free agency and waives his no trade clause, he would likely go to LA Dodgers or St. Louis Cards.

  82. psujoe

    July 24, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    Chuck, That’s why the Phils need to insist Downs is added to the deal if we have to part with Drabek and (Brown or Taylor) with other prospects. The Jays are going to dump all contracts they can if Halladay gets dealt.

    Drabek, (Taylor or Brown), Marson, Donald and a minor league pitcher not named Carrassco or Knapp for
    Downs and Halladay.

  83. psujoe

    July 24, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    Let’s be clear that if the RedSox get Gonzalez and the Yankees get Lee the Phils stand no chance without Halladay. Big ifs, but that’s the reality.

  84. Mazinman

    July 24, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    Crazy about baseball this time of year is good. Gives us a little excitement before the races really begin to heat up as well as giving us a little distraction from the heat.

    As for Halladay, I would also love to see him in Philly but I have grown into the position that it can’t be for Happ. We really need him in our starting rotation. If they insist on Happ then I want to keep Taylor and Drabek.

  85. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    Cardinals getting Holliday actually works in our favor.. one less team the Blue Jays can say is itnerested..

    The RedSox have enough pitching.. as do the Yankees..

    The Dodgers don’t have the prospects.. about the only fit is the Phillies.. maybe Tampa Bay? ..

  86. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    Thank you, Bruce. Good to see some good old rationality after reading posts like this one: “just get a deal done already for the guy who cares who you have to give up.” I hope fans aren’t evolving into Red Sox/ Yankee types that they cry if they don’t get the No.1 player available in the market every year cause it always has to be “NOW, NOW, NOW”

  87. Corey Seidman

    July 24, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    The Cards just gave up their top prospect and two others for two months of Matt Holliday, a Scott Boras client who has proven this year that he is a good, but not great player away from Coors Field…how does Billy Beane do it?

  88. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    psujoe….right on!

    Ditto for your comment Mazinman.

    Let’s go Phils!!

  89. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    Tampa don’t have the payroll flexibility nor do the Rangers. The Angels have the best major league ready prospects but not the pitching prospects and have supposedly shown not much interest. The Yanks and the Sox both have the prospects but have also shown no real interest and now the Cardinals have nothing to offer. That pretty much leaves the Dodgers who probably don’t have enough in the system unless they offered player/s off their major league roster and the Brewers who’d have to offer up both Escobar and Gamel to match the kind of deal writers suggest the Phillies should be prepared to offer.

    If I’m Amaro I’m not giving up two of my prospects considered to be up there with the best in the game and more if no-one else is forcing the Phils to throw that much into a deal, the suitors just don’t look to be there and more fool Toronto if they go into the off-season with Halladay on their roster

  90. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    Since when do the Yankees have enough pitching?…they could make a play…just because they are…..the Yankees. They are not afraid to spend and to stir things up. Especially if they realize that a Phillies/Yankees WS is a real possibility.

  91. Bruce

    July 24, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    I wonder if Holliday will be available for the St. Louis series with the Phillies starting tonight. Maybe this weekend if all the details are worked out (plus a physical exam?).

    I also wonder about the extent of Cards’ front office commitment to Holliday since he can be a free agent at the end of the season.

  92. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    Beane is brilliant. Thats a huge deal for Oakland getting a player the caliber of Wallace – who presumably will be in MLB next season.

  93. The Original Chuck P

    July 24, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    I can’t believe that the Cards gave up Wallace for Holliday after emphatically saying that they wouldn’t give up Wallace for Halladay.

  94. The Original Chuck P

    July 24, 2009 at 1:33 pm

    Maine is speaking with Dr. James Andrews… we all know what that means.

  95. chuckS

    July 24, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    Wasn’t Scott Matheison talked about the a few years ago the same way Drabek is now? Not wishing anything bad to Drabek but anything can happen.

  96. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 1:40 pm


    Not everyone that wants Halladay is “NOW, NOW, NOW”. Most of us understand that Ruben is playing the game right now.

    As long as we don’t drop a nuke on our farm system, I don’t see how this is even a debate. If Ruben holds out he may be able keep some key pieces in tact.

    The only NOW NOW NOW is to win. A year and a half (At least) of Halladay gives you the best option.

    Here are the 2 questions I have for people that oppose this:

    1. If this goes down for say (Drabek-Brown-Marson-Carrassco, etc) are you seriously not going to welcome Halladay to Philly?
    2. If we do win the World Series with a 1-2 punch of Halladay-Hamels and have a legit shot to do it next season, would you still oppose?

    IF this happens, it has to be for the right place (ie-not Drabek AND Happ). I realize this, I am not one that thinks we’re screwed without Halladay. BUT I definitely want him and this is painful right now!

  97. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    welcome to the confusing Chuck Club, chuckS…..

  98. The Original Chuck P

    July 24, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    Let’s revisit the teams that might be interested in Halladay:

    NYY – AL east…
    BOS – AL east…
    TB – AL east…
    DET – without Porcello, they have no shot
    CHW – without Beckham, they have no shot
    LAA – are they willing to part ways with Jered Weaver and Brandon Wood?
    TEX – Financially impossible..
    STL – thought that STL would be in the mix but without Wallace, they don’t have enough on the farm
    COL – could find themselves back in the mix… have been playing well, Halladay is from COL, they have a couple of young studs (Fowler, Gonzalez, De Le Rosa, Jimenez, Young Jr.)… not sure if they have the financial firepower and the desire to give up that much young talent.
    SF – while a playoff rotation consisting of Lincecum, Halladay and Cain would surely send chills down the spines of every other team in the NL, something tells me that they can’t pull it off without Bumgarner and that’s probably not gonna happen.

  99. The Original Chuck P

    July 24, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    Oh yea, LAD – with 0 top 50 prospects, they would have to take from their ML roster… probably not gonna give up Loney or Kemp for 1.5 years of Halladay.

  100. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    Halladay is not going w/in the AL East, I doubt he sees DET/CHW/TEX/COL or maybe SF as serious title contenders so I don’t see him ok’ing a trade there.

    That leaves: LAA, who seem unwilling to part w/ their prospects; LAD who won’t kill their roster, STL, now out with the Holliday deal.

    Unless a surprise team comes in the fold it’s probably Phillies or nothing. Riccardi doesn’t have much of a choice here, no matter how he mouths off to the media. Halladay’s stock is highest RIGHT NOW.

  101. The Original Chuck P

    July 24, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    By the way… I was listening to 950 and those guys were definitely saying that the Phils should try to keep Drabek rather than Happ. Thought that was interesting.

    If we add Halladay, we can move a starter or two (Martinez/Lopez) into the pen. Win/win.

  102. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    I heard that too on 950. I thought I heard them predict that Happ was a five inning pitcher tonight…..not that effective.

  103. Pat Gallen

    July 24, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    Bruce, good to see someone sane on these boards!

    I’m not lumping everyone in, but is it really that far off? It’s all anyone talks about. Myself included. Roy Halladay gets ratings. I just bough a Roy Halladay Phils jersey already.

    Just kidding, but you know someone out there jumped the gun.

  104. Matthew

    July 24, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    PEOPLE?!!? KENNY POWERS is the answer!! You’re Phucking out, I’m Phucking in!

  105. KM

    July 25, 2009 at 11:13 am

    Happ, Taylor, and Donald or Marson – let’s get this done today, and get Doc in here pitching next week.

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