The Dip: The “Genius” of J.P. Riccardi – Phillies Nation
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The Dip: The “Genius” of J.P. Riccardi

This is The Dip, a weekly column penned by our own commenter, The Dipsy. Agree or disagree with what he says? Tell us by visiting our contact page.

J.P. RiccardiIn 2001, the Toronto Blue Jays hired J.P. Riccardi to be their general manager with the thought of utilizing his ability to mine low-priced talent from other clubs, as well as employing the statistics driven draft strategy popularized by his mentor, Billy Beane, in the hopes of fielding a competitive ball club while employing a lower salary structure. Given Toronto’s expectations, it surprised a lot of people when Riccardi started signing players to pricey, long-term contracts. These signings included:

  • An eight-year, $90 million contract for third baseman Scott Rolen, which pays him $11M both this year and 2010.
  • A seven-year, $69.35 million contract to Alex Rios, which pays him $9.7M in 2010 and $12M for 2011 and 2012.
  • A three-year $40 million dollar contract to Roy Halladay, which pays him $14.2M this year and $15.75M in 2010.
  • A seven-year, $126 million contract to Vernon Wells, which including bonuses, calls for him to be paid $21M in 2010, $23M in 2011, and basically, on and on like that until the end of time.

Riccardi spent money like a drunken sailor, and now he owes five players (when you include Lyle Overbay’s $7 million contract) a total of $64.47 million for 2010. And the Jays are not a great team.

Now Riccardi is entertaining, in a very serious way it seems, trading a national treasure in Roy Halladay. He is doing it because he has to dump payroll, or because Halladay has demanded a trade so he can go win and get paid. Riccardi set about the process of dealing Halladay by cagily announcing to the world that Halladay was available. I think when a team announces that they are looking to trade arguably the best pitcher in the game, it’s a sign that the team has some problems. And Toronto does. Toronto’s payroll is stained and Halladay is the only high-salaried player the Jays can get rid of. It would also surprise no one if Halladay, at the height of his powers, yet faced with continued losing and no contract extension on the horizon, has just decided that he wants out. Whichever it is, Riccardi’s announcement that Halladay was on the block should have had other teams smelling blood.

Then, Riccardi started to talk. A lot. How much he needs to be “overwhelmed” in a deal for Halladay. How teams need to “step up” to get Halladay. Floating rumors that there is a deal in place for Halladay. (Who do you REALLY think was behind that Mets story?) He was like one of those little kids at Buckingham Palace who jumps up and down and makes funny faces trying to make the guard blink or twitch his face. So much for playing hard to get.

Tuesday we learned from Riccardi that the Jays have imposed a “self-imposed” deadline for trading Halladay of July 28. The reason given was, get this, “it wouldn’t be fair to Roy to have him go into his last start before the deadline with trade talks looming over him” or some such rot. Huh? The only thing that wouldn’t be fair to a pitcher making $14 million a year is to take his pitching arm and run it through a meat grinder. That would be about it. On Wednesday, he caught no one by surprise when he revealed that the deadline he mentioned the day before was actually a “soft” date. No kidding.

I don’t know what will happen with Halladay. But if the Jays do end up selling short it will be due in no small part to Riccardi’s inability to keep his mouth shut, and Riccardi will almost surely be fired. Throughout this whole process he’s made the Blue Jays seem vulnerable and unleveraged. Never mind that they actually are vulnerable and unleveraged, thats not the point. I think that part of being a general manager is having a little poker player in you so when you’re butt is in a sling, you can portray or spin it into to something other then weakness, and sometimes even make it look like strength. Acting arrogant and shooting off your mouth does not achieve this effect. Jackie Chan, Riccardi is not. He’s had his nose open the whole time in this. But then again maybe he’s crazy like a fox, and he’s gonna make me look stupid by walking off into the sunset with half of a team’s farm system, only to be hailed again by baseball people as the true genius he knows himself to be.

192 Comments

192 Comments

  1. Nationals#1

    July 24, 2009 at 11:42 am

    ” He is doing it because he has to dump payroll, or because Halladay has demanded a trade so he can go win and get paid.”
    maybe, and no

  2. Corinne

    July 24, 2009 at 11:49 am

    If Halladay “demands” a trade he waives his right to reject the trade.

  3. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 11:54 am

    No he doesn’t.

    The Dipsy

  4. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 11:55 am

    I have nothing good to say about Riccardi but he didn’t sign Scott Rolen to that deal, he came over in a trade from St. Louis for Troy Glaus.

  5. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 11:56 am

    Another way, and I wanna be clear, if Halladay has told them “I’m not signing an extension and I wanna win and now, what do they Blue Jays think they have to do? Which is why they are doing it.

    The Dipsy

  6. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 11:59 am

    Nj – Thanks.

    The Dipsy

  7. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/09/jp-ricciardi–.html

    The top of the list of stinkers Riccardi has made has to be BJ Ryan at 5/$47m.

  8. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    ^that’s a excel spreadsheet of Riccardi’s dealings as Toronto GM.

    (trades, signings, draft picks on different tabs)

  9. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    The point of the article is how Riccardi is totally screwing up this Halladay thing.

    The Dipsy

  10. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    …which should be good for us. Right?

  11. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    BJ Ryan was a stud in Baltimore….but not 5/$47 mil worth..

  12. TODDFROMFAIRMOUNT

    July 24, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    Until he proves us otherwise, Riccardi is an IDIOT.

    I don’t want to hear the sob story about how hard the AL East is, the Rays went to the World Series last year.

  13. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    Only if Riccardi is willing to come down off his pedestal and talk seriously about making a deal.

    Seems to me he’d rather talk to reporters than Amaro.

  14. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    And then, Riccardi announces that Halladay will not entertain a contract extension and this is why he is being traded. Why would you say that? If true, it further devalues Halladay. Truth be told, I believe Halladay would sign an extension, just not with the Blue Jays.

    The Dipsy

  15. Jeff of NoVa.

    July 24, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    Well St Louis is off the list of possible trade partners since they are picking up Holliday.

  16. Jeff

    July 24, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    Holliday might be in town against the Phillies this weekend. The Cardinals needed him. That lineup after Albert is horrible.

  17. Jeff of NoVa.

    July 24, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    Yeah even with holliday they are not that much stronger, they will go as far as Albert takes them

  18. Walter

    July 24, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    Trade is done: Oakland sends 29 year old OF Matt Holliday (.286, 11HRS, 54RBI) and 1.5 million dollars (to pay for some of Holliday’s remaining 6 million he is owed the rest of the year) to St. Louis for 3B Brett Wallace, OF Shane Peterson and RHP Clayton Mortensen.

    Holliday is earning $13.5 million in salary this season and could be in line for an award of $16 million.

  19. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    Matt Holliday. Big…..freakin…..deal. He’s worth an extra two wins.

    The Dipsy

  20. Walter

    July 24, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    That likely takes the Cardinals out of Halladay sweepstakes and any other major deals. Change of scenary will be nice for Holliday but still after Pujols and Holliday, not much for Cardinals. Holliday should join team today and might be in lineup tonight though I don’t think so but will be ready for pinch hitting.

    Good chance Holliday will stay in St. Louis for only 1.5 years and then he’ll go to free agency. Looking at that way it’s ok move. You traded for an overrated guy who is getting overpaid for a future star 3B in wallace and two other solid guys. St. Louis has to win now to make Holliday move look like a good one.

    To me Holliday is at best a .285 – .290 hitter, 25-30 HRS and 90 RBI guy. He played in Coors field was a major reason why he had great numbers there. Pujols should help boost Holliday’s numbers. I know lot of people can say CBP also raised many Phillie players numbers but alot of Phillie players have hit most of their HRS on the road and thats why the Phillies have the best record on the road in the ML and have posted 40+ wins on the road the last few years. Still a solid move by the cardinals.

    Also one player to watch out for tonight and the weekend is Julio Lugo who isn’t playing well but also does great against the Phillies in his career including when the RED sox visited Cbp this year.

  21. Walter

    July 24, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    Other rumors: The Reds have joined the Halladay sweepstakes but that will not happen because Halladay doesn’t want to be trade to the 44-50 Cincinnati Reds. Also trade discussions between Angels and Rays for Scott Kazmir have intensified Rosenthal reports.

  22. Norris

    July 24, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    NO JOKE BREAKING NEWS: JON HEYMAN THROUGH TWITTER REPORTS PHILLIES ACQUIRE HALLADAY, WELLS AND PROSPECT FOR HAPP, TAYLOR, CARRASCO, KENDRICK AND VICTORINO. PHILLIES THEN SEND WELLS TO ARIZONA FOR DOUG DAVIS AND CHAD QUALLS. DOUG DAVIS STARTING TONIGHT’S GAME. QUINTON BERRY HAS BEEN CALLED UP TO TAKE VIC’S PLACE.

    IN THE END

    PHILLIES GAIN HALLADAY, PROSPECT, DAVIS AND QUALLS
    PHILLIES LOSE HAPP, TAYLOR, CARRASCO, KENDRICK, VICTORINO AND WELLS

  23. Maverick

    July 24, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    I think Halladay is coming to the Phils.. but when you have “idiot” GM’s you never know what they hell they are thinking and could completely screw up a deal.

  24. Walter

    July 24, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    what a joke norris. the latest heyman says is

    its believed a little over a $1 mil is going with holliday from oakland to st. louis. #a’s #cards
    32 minutes ago from web

  25. Todd

    July 24, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    Cards acquire Halladay… The craziness ends…

  26. Todd

    July 24, 2009 at 1:17 pm

    Don’t ever believe your brother when he tells you something. Verify it before spreading the rumor. Cards acquired HOLLIDAY not HALLADAY.

  27. BS

    July 24, 2009 at 1:18 pm

    @Norris, that’s not even the slightest bit funny.

  28. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    Who’s this Norris guy, anyway?

  29. Walter

    July 24, 2009 at 1:33 pm

    Phillies are in running for Marco Scutaro as J.P Ricciardi reports to Toronto Sun along with other teams. The Halladay deal if happens could be a big one with many players changing their zip. Also trade talks are heating up around the league. We could have a few more deals before the day is done. Maybe around 4pm 5pm or 6pm.

  30. Walter

    July 24, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    That norris guy is probably chuck norris

  31. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    That’s not me, Walter…for the record.

  32. Brian of CO

    July 24, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    Norris that had BETTER be a FREAKING joke. Happ AND Victorino? If thats true, I am SO PISSED!

  33. Walter

    July 24, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    Not saying to you Chuck but the actor Chuck Norris who was Walker in Texas Ranger

  34. Brian of CO

    July 24, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    Victorino consitently has helped the Phillies as being Clutch. Sure he doesnt come through earlier in games, but he comes through clutch, which is why we won the WS last year. No we get rid of Happ and Victorino for Halladay and other nobody’s. Sorry, but I dont think the Phillies will win the NL East if this is true, much less the NL or WS. I hope this is false. Screw the team over for years to come for Halladay for 1.5 years?

  35. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    Gillick’s comments on the radio this morning make me think that Doc will be in red pinstripes shortly. Otherwise, Gillick just completely threw his supposed protege Amaro under the bus.

    Ricciardi is, indeed, an idiot. That scares me though, since he may be just dumb enough to scuttle a deal that works for both sides.

  36. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    Um, yeah nice try that is not on Heymans Twitter…BS

  37. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    What were Gillick’s comments?

  38. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 2:02 pm

    Bob, here you go (from Jim Salisbury’s article http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/phillies/20090724_As_trade_deadline_nears__talks_for_Halladay_heat_up.html):

    “Former Phils GM Pat Gillick, now an adviser to Amaro and Montgomery, favors going for it. He stated that in an interview with Toronto radio station 590 The Fan on Tuesday.

    Gillick, who scouted Halladay’s last start, a complete-game win over Boston on Sunday, said the Phils were in a “position to maybe go back-to-back.”

    “You don’t get many chances to go to the dance,” Gillick said. “You have to evaluate the position of your club and what kind of club you have and where the players are [in their careers].

    “If you have a chance to get there – I think you have a responsibility to the players and the fan base.” Gillick said acquiring top talent in July sends a message to the players “that these guys want to win and will do everything they can to put us over the top.'”

  39. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    Apparently those comments were from Tuesday, not today. The implication is still the same, though. Unless Gillick thought the teams would get together on a deal, I can’t see why he’d say that getting Halladay shows a commitment to the team and fans (meaning that not getting Doc is the opposite)…

  40. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    Gillick’s thoughts also quite interesting given that he was known as “Stand Pat” for not making any trade deadline blockbusters.

  41. Brian of CO

    July 24, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    Thank you Geoff. I also checked on multiple sources, says trades done now is BS, and still as of 1145 am, also, Drabek is NOT listed as untouchable, and most currently, as of 2:05pm NO trade has been done, Happ would “probably” have to be in a deal, but nothing is done, and Victorino hasnt been mentioned yet.

  42. Ben

    July 24, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    i was reading on mlbtraderumors that people believe the “bar has been set” with the holliday deal and that it will require more prospects now to get halladay.

    i see what they are saying, but if anything i think the bar is lowered. just b/c the cards dealt a boatload of talent for holliday, doesn’t mean the phils have to give x factor of talent for halladay. its not like $$$, there are so many factors when players are being exchanged (needs of old team, needs of new team, projection, age, years protected, etc.) that i don’t see it having a bearing.

    i think it may lower what we need to give b/c now there is one less team in the mix. what is everyone’s thoughts?

  43. baseballfan

    July 24, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    Riccardi is not screwing anything up. In the offseason he will get a nice package and no one will say anything. Sounds like a pissed off Philly fan wrote this article.

  44. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    Ben – Agreed, especially since StL was rumored to be in on Halladay. One team out of the mix should drive the price down. Also, a position player who is on the field every day =! a pitcher who throws once every five games (even if it’s Halladay).

    It’s Ricciardi’s prerogative to turn any deal down, but if he thumbs his nose at, say, Drabek, Taylor, Donald, and Marson because he thinks that deal doesn’t meet the ‘market’ set by the Holliday trade, he’ll only be shooting himself in the foot. What’s the Halladay market gonna look like this winter?

  45. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    baseballfan – if Ricciardi waits till the offseason he will get a bag of baseballs. See Santana, Johan for the appropriate comp.

  46. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    See: Santana, Johan trade to the Mets and you will see how Ricardi screws up if he doesn’t deal Halladay by 4 pm on the 31st. He would get .30 on the dollar

  47. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    Damn Petey beat me to it, lol

  48. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    Well, effectively, as of right now, it looks like the Phillies and the Angels and the Phillies and the Phillies. Something always gets screwy at the 11th hour though. It looks like Riccardi might be in a “Peavy situation” and nows he’s only got one team to trade with (if he wants to trade to the Sox god bless him). If Riccardi HAS to trade Halladay, and I believe he does, and the Phils have the luxury to tell Riccardi to drop dead if his demands are too high, then the Blue Jays are in a corner. I don’t know what the the Jays would expect to get in trade this winter given the fact that Halladay will be on a one year deal and can block any trade. Personally, I think Ruben is gonna give it to him in the keester.

    The Dispy

  49. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    Thats: The Dipsy

  50. Brian of CO

    July 24, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    that would be a deal for the ages. There is NO chance in hell, not a single chance that Riccardi will accept a deal for only Drabek, Taylor, Donald and Marson. If for some reason he is dumb enough to accept it, that would keep our current best pitcher (Happ), along with Halladay, Hamel, Blanton for the rest of ’09 and ’10. Thats nice. But it wont happen. If we get Halladay, I am 99.9% certain Happ is gone. To me thats a double edged sword. Get rid of the only pitcher who has been consistent this year who we are only paying $380k, who wants to stay in Philly and can sign a contract for him to keep him year for several years more than likely paying him 5 mil or less, and get Halladay for close to 14.5 Mil A YEAR and only have him only through the ’10 season.

  51. Brian of CO

    July 24, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    I mean OR get Halladay. NOT and.

  52. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    ONLY, ONLY Drabek, Taylor, Donald, and Marson? Thats more than a fair return for Halladay. What are you all smoking? What is the media smoking? What is Riccardi smoking?

    These supposed demands are not realistic at all. Your asking a team to give up 2 top 25 prospects and 4 of its top 10 prospects. Thats a MAJOR return in most baseball circles.

    There will always be other guys in teh deal we didnt suspect, because – again – NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THEY ASKED FOR BECUASE IT HASNT HAPPENED YET!!!

  53. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    Amaro isn’t giving up both Happ and Drabek … since Happ can help us win this year.. he isn’t going anywhere

  54. Ben

    July 24, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    on the flip side, the jays are giving an ace and the only person we have available to trade that could be an ace is drabek. does riccardi deal his ace for 4 players headlined by a #3 starter?

  55. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    Oh wow… Please someone tell me if the Phillies fans haven’t become more desperate as the days go bye.

    First, it was NO DRABEK AND NO HAPP.
    Then, it was OK send one of Drabek or Happ, plus one of Brown/Taylor.
    And now some fans think that Drabek, Taylor/Brown, PLUS donald and marson… aren’t enough!!?? That you also have to include Happ!?

    I’ll wait till tomorrow, maybe some here will want to throw in Hamels too? You know, just throw him in the deal, he’s no good anymore…

  56. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    I wouldn’t give up that much. Marson is a solid prospect again. In fact, he might be our freakin catcher next year.

    The Dipsy

  57. Maverick

    July 24, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    Brian of CO…. its not a double edged sword. What happ makes and what halladay make should not be an issue to you or I.. we (fans) are making the phillies ownership truck loads of money… if they “save” money that savings will not be passed on to us i promise you that!

    also.. you say we only have him through 2010… who says we wont keep him? or that he wont want to stay?.. this is a top class organization and the phils have the cash to keep him longer

  58. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    The only thing Riccardi is screwing up is the faith his players have in him and the Jays as an organisation. Halladay is the face of that organisation and has been used as platform for Riccardi to get his face in the press, he’s shown no signs of gratitude for Halladay’s service and impact on the team and that’s going to reflect well in the clubhouse, if their star player isn’t getting shown respect the other guys probably aren’t feeling like the club has a commitment to them.

    It’s not going to be good for Toronto to hold on to Halladay and have all that negativity and all those questions surrounding them over the next few months.

  59. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    If it comes down to Happ-Drabek, Drabek is getting dealt.

    Halladay-Hamels-Happ-Blanton-Moyer/Martinez/Lopez is a damn deep rotation!

    I also trust if this doesn’t happen, that JR has something else planned.

    No matter how this turns out, this is a hell of a time to be a Phillies fan.

  60. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    um, tahts ebcause those OTHER guys are ALSO good prospects. people act like we only have 3 prospects and the otehrs are average or suck…thats simply not true. in fact, im almost willing to GUARANTEE that one of the players in this deal will be someone we arent even mentioning at all – and that may not even be a filler guy either.

  61. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    Anthony Gose, maybe??

  62. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    @ Geoff,

    That is exactly why I am ok with paying a high price and getting Halladay. Our farm is very deep. They can plug the holes within the next 2 years.

    We are not going to be the Pirates/Nationals in 2011 if we trade for Halladay.

  63. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    Anthony Gose is highly regarded.

  64. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    You’re right Bob. The Pirates and Nationals will probably have better players then…

  65. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    Bob – great minds lol

    Geoff et al. – Drabek/Taylor/Donald/Marson is, I think, fair value for a year and a half of Halladay. To the extent JP is in a corner, I’d like to see Rube give up much less, though that remains to be seen. In any deal, I think Drabek is going to Toronto, and I’m fine with that. The one guy who has to be untouchable is Happ. Not because he’s better than Drabek in the long run, but because he’s a key part of the team RIGHT NOW and the point of trading for Doc is to win RIGHT NOW.

  66. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    You’re right Bob. The Pirates and Nationals will probably have better *young* players then…

  67. Whack8888

    July 24, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    Manny — agreed. Everyone needs to go look at the Phillies record again, and remember that trading for Halladay is a bonus, not a necessity. Definately no Happ (defeats the purpose, because we want to win now and Happ is pitching well now) and only one of Drabek, Taylor or Donald. After that, we can give the Jays some goods, but definately definately the Phillies should not panic!

  68. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    Donald and Marson are obviously available… and if they were such great prospects.. teams would be knocking down our door to get these guys ..

    what they are is GOOD prospects.. neither projects to be a Superstar..

    That said, I dont think Marson gets dealt..

  69. Jeff

    July 24, 2009 at 2:41 pm

    The Phillies WILL NOT trade both Drabek and Happ. No way. Drabek or Happ. Keep Happ. Happ with Hamels, Halladay, Blanton. Very nice

  70. Brian of CO

    July 24, 2009 at 2:41 pm

    Geoff, I agree with you, those players SHOULD be enough to get Halladay. I repeat SHOULD, but I doubt the Jays will accept it. Maverick, The Phillies recently have been willing to pay, in years past, they have been VERY stingy. Their willingness to pay top dollar to keep or get players is only this past year. As for passing on savings, of course not, HOWEVER, they will pass on extra cost. Going from 380k to 14.5M, that cost will be passed on to us. We are already spending enough, and they are already making too much money. I dont see Halladay signing anywhere he gets traded without trying the Free Agent Market, unless that team is willing to give him another deal similar to what he is making now, which 40 Mil for 3 years. Keep in mind, Hamels is 4 years for 20 Mil is it? The Phillies still even with increasing their willingness to pay players wont sign him for DOUBLE what they paid the current “Ace”.

  71. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    Dipsy, Geoff, etc: What is a fair package for Halladay, assuming the headliner is Drabek (as seems likely to be the case)?

  72. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    Well lets see those better young players become a better team than the Phillies in 2011. Don’t hold your breath on that one. Those teams can get all the best young talent in the world, but they still have to use them.

    Although you could be right, its the Pittsburgh Pens model: Suck for years, pile up the high draft picks. Eventually it will pay off.

    This is a good problem to have. The farm is deep enough to take a hit, even for only 1.5 years of Halladay (yet a shot a 2 more World Series titles). And we get 2 picks IF Hallday walks after next season.

    Its a smart risk to take, Ruben is playing the game to hold some of the priced pieces that we have.

  73. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    Donald is gone in any trade to the Blue Jays… and he’s no longer a Top Prospect (if he ever was?) so you can’t package a deal around him..

    he’s probably a B-type prospect, in a deal that is going to take two A-type guys to even get the Blue Jays attention..

  74. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    Bob, that’s what I’ve been saying all along. THAT rotation!!

  75. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    Just because we have the depth we shouldn’t give up considerably more than anyone else is willing to give for Halladay, if the Jays want to cherry-pick everything they want from the Phils system then let them keep him and face a tumultuous off-season that will force them into trading him for much less than they’d get now.

  76. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    Brian – $40m over 3 years? Huh? try 72m to 80m over 4 years. If halladay would sign for 40m/3yr and I would throw some of my money in to make the deal.

    The Dipsy

  77. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    Fair (IMO):

    Drabek-Taylor or Brown-Carrasco-Marson or Donald. I think the longer the Jays wait the less we can give. That is more than fair, but worth it.

    Still leaves plenty around with: Taylor or Brown, D’Amard, Savery, Knapp etc. Just have to continue to draft wisely and we would have no problem filling the voids.

    The core would be intact for the next 2-3 years, then you reevaluate from there.

    All and all if we don’t land Roy Im sure there is plans B, C and D.

  78. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    I gotta say this, though. I would not put it past Riccardi to keep Halladay to cut off his nose despite his face. I also have a theory on the July 28th deadline. If he doesn’t get HIS deal by that date, then he’s got 3 days to go into damage control mode at which time he starts hemorraghing and has to trade him at someone else’s price (i.e. The “best bad” deal, which could actually work against the Phils.

    The Dipsy

  79. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    I think one of the important things is that people keep forgetting that giving up a whole lot.. or maybe even a little too much.. still nets us Roy Halladay.

    None of these prospects are gauranteed to do anything.. and neither is Halladay. but adding Halladay to this team makes us even better than we are know (and we’re already among the best in baseball)..

    The Blue Jays need to trade him… and we need to get him.. so I’m 99% sure we’ll land him before the deadline. Hopefully the agreement they reach doesn’t take all of our top prospects away.. but for a CHANCE at 3 World Series crowns.. or 2 in 3 years (better than our 2-in-our entire history)

    you MUST go get Roy Halladay, because he is the difference-maker that this Starting Rotation needs

  80. Brian of CO

    July 24, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    The Dipsy, if the Phillies “only” paid Hamels 4 years 20 Mil JUST after winning the NLCS, AND WS MVP, what makes you think they will pay Halladay 3 yrs, 40 Mil? I dont see the Phillies paying that much. When they paid Hamels, they paid him as if he is the “Ace” of the Phillies, and then to pay more than DOUBLE? I dont see it happen.

  81. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    One of my points here is that we have to use the circumstances to our advantage: it’s in the Jays best interest to trade Halladay now… and the Phillies have no real competitors in this race… Under these circumstances (especially after the Cardinals trade), we should go after a Halladay deal that’s more than fair for us… It’s not just about getting Roy Halladay, but about making the best possible deal. And again, given the circumstances, I think we are able to pull this off under Amaro’s terms, not Riccardi’s.

  82. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    Hamels was controlled by the Phils for a few more years. He probably made more, or at least the same, amount of money with the deal he just signel as he would have by going to arbitration each year. And its guaranteed.

    The Dipsy

  83. Brian of CO

    July 24, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    I should have said what make you think the Phillies would pay Halladay “72m to 80m over 4 years”.

  84. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    You couldn’t have said it any better, NJ. Giving up “a little too much,” Don, doesn’t make any sense at all… cause in this specific case, that would mean that you outbid yourself…

  85. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    Manny – I think you’re right. Beware of the team the jumps in at the end. Sometimes it happens. Meanwhile, don’t be surprised when JP floats a rumour that another team is interested… probably tomorrow. It’ll be the Red Sox. He’ll talk about Bard and Buckholz, blah blah, just trying to get the best deal he can, blah blah. Trading in the division doesn’t matter, blah blah.

    The Dipsy

  86. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    See.. I really think that we NEED Roy Halladay as much, or more then they need to get rid of him…

    they could get a deal that includes a few TOP 50 prospects in the offseason… no doubt in my mind that there would be a larger field of teams trying to get him too..

    so lets not play hardball too hard here.. go get this guy without subtracting from our current Major League roster

  87. Ed 2

    July 24, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    Trading Happ does not “defeat the purpose.” A playoff rotation is three good guys, not four. Having a fourth good guy helps, but it is not essential. We can win the division without Hallday, but our chances of winning another ring without him are much lower. Trading Happ instead of Drabek is a long term and short term win for us even if he is pitching consistantly. Unfortunately, Taylor probably has to go too. He just does not have a spot on this team despite his tremendous talents.

    The best part of all of this is that we have a good farm system. Hallday or not, this has become a win-win situation…unless RAJ really gets fleeced.

    The highest we should go on this deal is : Happ, Taylor, Carrasco, and Donald…id prefer Savery to go instead of CC, but i doubt its enough. Sweet Lou could go too, but i hope not.

  88. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    But the difference between a good GM and a bad one is that bnoth can land elite players in trades, but bad GM’s always outbid themselves and good GM’s always give up less than you thought they would. Thats not exclusive to baseball. Ruben appears to be a good GM – and this is a chance to show it.

  89. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    Um, you need 4 pretty good starters as you saw last year.

  90. Pat Gallen

    July 24, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    My thought, too, is another team jumps in last minute. Believe me, if the Sox put up their best, Ricciardi wont hesitate.

  91. jj

    July 24, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    danny knobler of cbs says jarrod washburn could be a backup plan for the phillies if they don’t get halladay including cliff lee. A phillies scout was in detroit yesterday to see washburn who threw 7 innings of 2 hit ball. thoughts?

  92. Geoff

    July 24, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    SO trading happ still leaves a hole. Which you NEED down the stretch AND in the playoffs.

  93. bflaff

    July 24, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    What bothers me about the “genius” of Riccardi, and I agree that the air quotes are appropriate, regardless of how this Halladay ituation works out, is that he is going out of his way to drive down the value of Halladay (refusing to allow teams to negotiate an extension, needlessly saying that Doc will want to test the free agent market, and refusing to pay any portion of Halladay’s salary if he is traded) while making sure the price stays astronomical. He seems determined to very publicly rip off another GM in the most high profile way possible, presumably so he can keep a job he deserves to lose.

    My main concern is that the fact that Riccardi is so publicly being a dong would indicate that he can afford to be, presumably because at least one team (cough, ours, cough) seems willing to pay the most outlandish prices possible to get him. Riccardi literally cannot build up expectations that the haul for Doc will be ridiculous and then accept something realistic, because it will look like a huge failure on his part. So if he’s out there smugly demanding, “2 of the top 25 prospects in all of baseball, Happ, and a few other guys… hmmm, and then maybe I’ll do you the favor of considering that pittance.” then he must be very close to getting that. That’s bad news.

    We keep hearing from anyone who ever saw a Jays uni that Roy Halladay is the greatest pitcher who ever lived. But what is the value of that, if all it got Toronto was 4th place in a 5 team division? Even though Halladay is a top 5 stud, the price for that should still be much less than what Riccardi says he wants.

    Hate to see our guy getting punked by a guy with very little actual leverage, but I hope Amaro, Jr. pulls out something good in the end. Fingers crossed.

  94. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    That’s what Riccardi WANTS the Phillies to think….that we need Halladay more than they need to get rid of him. I don’t think it’s smart to bare our souls that much. But……I DO think that too much of a hardball approach will get us nothing either. It’s really a touchy situation.

  95. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    There’s no way Halladay’s value increases in the off-season, he’s already causing friction inside the clubhouse and teams will have realistic shots at Lee and Peavy in the winter not to mention the impending free agencies of LAckey, Webb and Bedard.

    The Jays need don’t need to deal him now but he’s a major distraction for them going into next season very possibly as the last placed team in the AL east.

  96. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    It depends on what people think FAIR offers are..

    I think its fair to give them Drabek, Taylor, Carrasco, Donald .. for Roy Halladay

    because I don’t think Carrasco or Donald are anything special.. they aren’t going to help us win much, especially this year or next..

    we NEED to win while we have Utley, Howard, Rollins, Vic, Werth, Ibanez all together.. and that ends after NEXT season.. so why not add Roy Halladay for that same amount of time??

  97. Miles

    July 24, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    Yeah Dipsy is dead on about any possible extension for Halladay. The 3 year 20-21 million that we gave Cole just covered the rest of his arb. Sabathia just signed for over 100 million so there is no reason why Halladay would end up seeking less per year than CC. His deal is gonna be big, and possibly not worth it because of his age.

  98. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    Hamels contract vs. Halladay’s potential deal is apples and oranges. Hamels was not a FA; we bought out his arb years. He’s making close to the total he would have made each year in arb without the risk that he gets seriously injured sometime in the next 3 yrs. (since his $20MM is now guaranteed). You can’t compare FAs and arb players, nor can you really compare Halladay and Hamels value-wise.

  99. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    Heyman tweets that the Phils are “trying hard” to land Halladay and will be surprised if we don’t get him.

    In worse news, there’s a report out of LA that Colletti said Ricciardi wants “2 or 3 current Dodgers, including a young pitcher” or else “5 or 6 prospects” for Doc. Yikes…looks like JP hasn’t gotten real yet.

  100. Miles

    July 24, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    Geoff, you don’t need 4 “really good” starters. Moyer only made one good start out of three last postseason. If we got rid of Happ in the deal (IF we got rid of Happ), you have Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, and then some combination of Pedro/Lopez trying to fill in the 4th hole. Sometimes you find lightning in a bottle with back end guys like that. The Cards won with Jeff Weaver and Anthony Reyes (who? exactly.) in their World Series rotation. With Park and possibly a healthy Myers as middle relievers out of the pen in October, that 4th spot is not that big of a deal.

    Plus look at who those starters would be going up against around the league….Lohse? Randy Johnson? Randy Wolf? We could survive.

  101. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    NJ. I think they need to deal him now and I’ll tell you why:

    Halladay might really want out of Toronto right this second. We don’t know. If he does, and Riccardi doesn’t trade him, then you could have a whole lot of pissed off Roy Halliday on your hands and all because Riccardi couldn’t get an extra pound of flesh in a trade. If nobody offered fair value for Halladay, that would be different. If I can attempt to humanize this thing for a second, if I was Halladay, I would be really pumped about coming here. And given the fact that the Phils are not competitors of the Jays, are not in the same league, and are offering value for me and I still don’t get traded could lead me to just shut down the whole trade thing and I’d tell the Jays, who I have been loyal to my whole career, that I’m not going anywhere and I’m just gonna play out my contract. See ya wouldn’t wanna be ya. I think thats a chance Riccardi can’t take.

    The Dipsy

  102. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    To me two top 50 prospects and two major league ready prospects is too much considering no-one seems to be offering up anywhere near that. I think one top prospect, two major league ready ones and another minor leaguer with lesser credentials is fair at this point.

  103. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    Lets worry about next offseason when it comes.

    Pros for Halladay: Bonafide #1 pitcher, takes pressure off a 24 year old Hamels to lead this rotation to another WS, takes pressure off of the offense to score 4 + runs a night to win, would be a great mentor to our current staff (starters and bullpen). Not to mention that even if we give up talent our current core players would still be together for this run.

    Cons: We may give up too much of the farm for him, the injury risk, we may lose him after 2010.

    I’m not saying to give Riccardi his pick of anyone on the farm, but we need to give some to get some. To me the pros outweigh the cons here.

  104. repeat!

    July 24, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    Why does the does the sports media continue to push the fallacy that the Jays have the upper hand here? We know that there’s very liitle truth to that idea if any at hall. The Jays need the Phillies much more than the other way around. Put your fooot down RA and say no JA Happ. To include him in the trade is beyond negel. As far as Drabek, Knapp, Taylor, Caras., Brown is concerned I say do it. Who knows how they’ll turn out. Hamels is a FA in about 3yr. You know if he’s heathly and still a pitching stud the Phils won’t pay him half that the Yanks or Sox will. Re can restock our pull ben then. If Jays won’t budge F’em. Go after Lee or Qualls. Maybe we could move Lidge if we agree to pick up some of the Salary.

  105. repeat!

    July 24, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    please excuse the typos

  106. Bob

    July 24, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    Charlie said it best “the horse keeps you out of your bullpen”

  107. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    Here’s my general view on things: I think that the time to win is not only now, but two years from now, ten years from now, decades from now… As the older players in today’s superb team leave (Rollins, Ibañez, Moyer)… you’ll replace them with the well-groomed guys you have on your farm (Donald?, Taylor, Happ)… you keep the team competitive for a long time by doing this time after time. IF you make a big splashy trade for Halladay and you lose your pieces –the whole mentality changes.

    Last year, we were all praising Gillick for “all the small moves” that got us a WFC-ship. Suddenly, we’re in a rush to change that mentality? I’d much rather keep making small moves and you’ll slowly build a team that’s good to win in 2009, 2010, 2011..and beyond. Avoid having to do what teams like the Jays and Pirates (and soon, the Mets) are currently forced to do, which is rebuild for years if they want to be competitive again. It’s not like the TEAM we have now will disappear in two years… we can prevent that from happening if we gradually plug in the pieces and constantly rejuvenate our core when needed.

  108. jj

    July 24, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    Jon Heyman of SI.com says the Phils are “trying hard” to obtain Halladay. He’d be surprised if they don’t acquire him.

  109. jj

    July 24, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    Tony La Russa on tonight’s lineup vs. Phillies and Matt Holliday: “If he gets here, he plays.”

  110. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    I am going to the game tonight and am seriously ambivalent about how Happ pitches. Of course I want the Phils to win, but I don’t really want Happ to twirl a 2-hit shutout and pitch himself into being a must-have for Toronto.

  111. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    “Dodgers GM Ned Colletti made this morning on KABC Radio. Colletti says the Jays want two or three current Dodgers, including a young pitcher, or five or six prospects.”

    Riccardi’s a fool

  112. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    since when are Jason Donald and Carlos Carrasco MAJOR LEAGUE READY PROSPECTS???

    They aren’t anywhere near the Major Leagues for our team… AAA yes. Ready to replace anyone and get playing time on our roster, No.

    (this was not intended for people to say how Bruntlett, Bako, etc all suck..)


    Carrasco has an ERA over 4.00 for his career..

    Jason Donald is a .286 career hitter..in 4 Minor League seasons, with not a lot of Power (28 HRs) and not a lot of Speed (34 Steals) and he is flat-out BAD on defense with only a .955 Fielding Percentage at SS

  113. Havoc

    July 24, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    I really hope Ruben doesn’t cave here. I posted this earlier in the week and I believe it even more now that the cardinals are out of the running, and the dodgers are talking their way out of a deal. The Phils are the only one in this so set the market in your favor. The Jays need this deal done more than we do. If it doesn’t work you take a shot at Cliff lee or Zach Duke. Remember our starters don’t have to beat the other team’s starters just the other teams lineup. If our starters are good enough to keep us in it, with the Phils defense and offense we can beat any team in Baseball.

  114. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    Manny – Yes and no. Let’s say they make the trade I proposed earlier: Drabek/Taylor/Donald/Marson. This year and next, they keep all their position guys and have a rotation of Halladay/Hamels/Blanton/Happ/#5 guy. In 2011, they’ve got to see if they can get Halladay to sign, otherwise there will be a hole or two to fill in the rotation (Carrasco? Savery? Carp? FA pitcher?). The real decision point is 2012 – what are Howard, Hamels and the rest demanding and what can we afford to pay. There is no doubt that by that point the current core will be broken up to some extent.

    However, even if we trade for Doc, we will still have Brown, d’Arnaud, Carrasco, Knapp on track to contribute by then, along with (perhaps) some members of this year’s draft class. The bottom line is that, Doc or no Doc, the future success of the team will require continued successful drafting and Gillick-like small-move FA signings. Halladay doesn’t change this, and there’s no guarantee that ANY of Drabek, Taylor, Donald, or Marson contribute anything at the ML level. Barring injury, there is a guarantee that Doc significantly upgrades the staff and gives the Phils an edge to win another WS in the next two years.

  115. Miles

    July 24, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    Don, you can’t argue that “major league ready” is a relative term, however. Major league ready for the Nats or Pirates is a lot different than major league ready for the Phils, Yanks, Dodgers, etc.

    Donald and Carrasco could easily be on major league rosters elsewhere.

  116. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    NJ – I saw that too. What I’m really curious about are the 2-3 major league players JP thinks he can get. Based on reports, it’s pretty obvious Kershaw is one, but who are the others?

  117. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    Carrasco could be the Mets’ #3 right now.

  118. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    Halladay DOES change this, Petey Pablo, because you’ll give up a bunch of your best prospects no matter what, and in the future they won’t be the ones playing for the Phillies… you’ll have to fill the holes with today’s lower prospects.

  119. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    The Dodgers are NOT trading Kershaw in that deal. I’ll run through Kensington naked if they do.

    The Dipsy

  120. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    NJ: I agree.. given the circumstances, a deal should include what you mentioned “one top prospect, two major league ready ones and another minor leaguer with lesser credentials”.. I agree with Petey Pablo and Miles in that Donald and Carrasco are both major-league ready.

  121. Ed 2

    July 24, 2009 at 3:48 pm

    Regardless of what everyone thinks we should do, we just have to pray that RAJ isn’t bidding against himself. Give a firm offer to JP and let him spin whatever rumors he wants. When that dust settles he will realize that his ownership wants him to shed payroll and we might be the only legitimate bidders out there.

    It seems like the Dodgers and Brewers are the only other “potential” bidders. Most of the dodger’s talent is in the majors already, and they wont want to disrupt that. The Brewers have the talent, but a gun shy organization probably won’t want to pull the trigger again. Besides, we can live with the brewers getting him.

  122. The Original Chuck P

    July 24, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    Would you trade JA Happ if it meant keeping Taylor and Brown?

  123. Ben

    July 24, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    just to comment on the comment that we liked the small moves in the past and are now pushing for this big splash.

    roy halladay is an elite pitcher right now. he’s about as automatic a starter as you can get. when you are talking a piece here and a piece there to get a bona fide #1 ace, you have to get the deal done.

    in the past there were always question marks around the guys in the market. last year the only real sure thing was CC, and while yes he blew up in the nlds, he also willed that team to the playoffs. if he was on a different team that didn’t make him pitch every 4th day for a month his performance may have been different.

    this caliber of player does not come around that often. to boot we get him for another year and either sign him or get two good draft picks.

  124. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 3:55 pm

    If your Ned Colletti your not giving up Kemp, Bronxton or Kershaw and probably not Martin. The only guy I can see on their roster is James McDonald, Blake DeWitt’s not going to be worth much more than Jason Donald since he’s back in the minors, Hu’s not going to excite with a higher OBP than SLG% and Kuo’s on the DL.

    I honestly think Riccardi’s talking himself out of getting a deal…

  125. Christian

    July 24, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    Just do it – I can count the number of times the Phils have decided to make a splash over the last 20 or so odd years on one ham-hand (Lance Parrish, Jim Thome, Kevin Millwood – Bobby Bonilla and Alfonso Soriano don’t count!). I have lived with poor Phillies teams a lot longer than I have with the succesfull ones. Here is hoping that they take a shot with this group that they have now and worry later about the team they will field in 2012!

  126. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    Since I don’t think there was an answer earlier I’ll ask again- Can you think of any circumstances where a ROY candidate was traded mid-season?

    I can’t so that tells me it’s not worth even talking about Happ being dealt.

  127. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    TOCP – no. Taylor is blocked and I’m not going to give up a key part of our rotation who’s under control for years to save a prospect who will rot in AAA or be a 4th OF until 2011. Brown will be ready by the time Ibanez’ contract is up and supposedly has the higher ceiling, so he’s the guy I try to keep.

    Dipsy – I don’t think the Dodgers will trade Kershaw either. It makes less sense than trading Happ. But the reports since this have started have been that Toronto would want Kershaw, and I’m shocked to hear that JP has the cojones to ask for him PLUS 1 or 2 other MLB players. If Coletti makes that trade Frank McCourt will shoot him out of a cannon onto the freeway behind Dodger Stadium.

  128. Christian

    July 24, 2009 at 3:59 pm

    Sorry – I forgot to mention that if Halladay had been a free-agent this past offseason – he would have been signed to a record breaking deal – even greater than Sabathia’s deal. The Phils would be getting this guy on the “cheap” at only 15 million next season! Hell! Brett Myers was making 12 million this year!

  129. The Original Chuck P

    July 24, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    Amen, Ben…

  130. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    Petey – hahahaha. Shot out of a cannon. Very funny. NJ, do you think Riccardi is trying to make it look like he’s trying to trade Halladay with no intention of doing so?

    The Dipsy

  131. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    Trade Happ….keep BOTH Taylor and Brown??……

    Much as I hate to…I have to say yes I would.

  132. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    NJ – nope as to a ROY candidate being traded. When Toronto got Cone in 1992 they traded Jeff Kent, who I believe was starting for them, but as I recall Kent wasn’t a ROY guy and wasn’t lighting anything on fire for the Jays.

  133. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    I’ve heard Kershaw’s season described as up and down and the guys pitching 2.85 with a WHIP of 1.22 and a BAA of .193… That’s not likely to be his career line but the Dodgers aren’t going to entertain trading him… No chance of it

  134. hamels' left hand

    July 24, 2009 at 4:04 pm

    Manny seems to represent a group of Phillies fans that are afraid. Grow a pair…have you ever seen him pitch? Did you go to the parade? Which shortstop is going to take over for JRoll in a few years? The time is now…

  135. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    Dipsy – Coletti out of a cannon could be a better promotion than Disco Demolition Night – who knows?

    I think the 2-3 MLB players or 5-6 prospects talk is a further indication that Halladay is coming here. Assuming Ricciardi said that to Coletti, it’s pretty clear he’s not serious about negotiating with the Dodgers. There have been reports that LA didn’t have the right mix of prospects to make the Jays happy. It seems like Ricciardi’s burning a bridge he never intended to cross in order to drive up the price for others like Philly, Milwaukee, NYY, and anyone else who might be in on Doc. In the end, the Phils match up best and I think the deal gets done. Hopefully Amaro doesn’t buy what JP is trying to sell in terms of the price.

  136. Ben

    July 24, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    i think amaro should say to jp “you can have drabek or knapp, you can have brown or taylor, and you can have two or three other prospects from our entire system depending on who you choose above”

    you have to give up two of our top 4 minor leaguers. then depending on who they take you can make adjustments to the rest of the guys.

  137. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 4:13 pm

    Dipsy- I think that was the case until it got out prior to the All-Star game how unhappy really Halladay was, I think Riccardi was floating him to try and get the groundwork done for a deal in the off-season which would give him time to try and move Wells and have one last shot at re-signing Halladay.

    Now that’s obviously not going to happen but I see a guy who’s made his best player available for going on 3 weeks without doing any legwork to get a deal done, who’s seemingly spent more time talking to the media than other teams, who hasn’t yet an idea of who he actually wants in a deal and has imposed some kind of deadline to expire just a day after he expects to be talking about possible players with potential suitors. I also seem him being rumoured to have asked for 3 of 4 prospects considered to be amongst the best in the league from the Phils plus more and asking for major league regulars and more from the Dodgers, neither of which seems realistic without an intense bidding war.

    No I don’t at all think Riccardi’s really intends to trade Halladay unless it’s for a record setting deal.

  138. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    What if? Hmmmm? What if…now this would be precious. What if Halladay has told Riccardi: I’ll go to the Phillies and thats it. Make it happen.

    The Dipsy

  139. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    Here’s the right deal as Don M earlier indicated as fair and as I proposed about a week ago:

    Drabek, Taylor, Carrasco and Donald.

    Drabek and Taylor are coveted, no doubt, and rightly so.

    Carrasco and Donald are expendable for us but, for the right team (Jays) would be nice players at some point. Not sure if Carrasco could be the Mets #3 as someone (Manny, I think) suggested…but he’s a nice addition to the deal.

    Beyond that it starts getting into the realm of “giving up the farm.”

  140. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    Supposedly the Jays are scouting Carrasco tonight, and after that are going to send their wish list to Ruben, right? And JP wants to go into fire-sale mode if he does trade Halladay. My prediction is a deal is done by Monday afternoon/evening, and we trade Drabek, Taylor, Donald, and 1 or 2 ‘filler’ guys for Doc.

  141. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 4:18 pm

    Dipsy…what are the chances that Halladay actually told Riccardi that?

  142. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 4:19 pm

    Halladay’s not that kind of guy, if he was going to pull a Jake Peavy he would have already done it and in public. I hope Riccardi realises how much of a distraction Halladay will be if he isn’t traded and I don’t see the suitors lining up to justify the kind of record setting deal Riccardi wants. The guys grandstanding and he’s going to get caught napping unless he comes down off his pedestal.

  143. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 4:20 pm

    I think Halladay has to go. Halladay will go nuts and make the Blue Jays lives miserable if he doesn’t. All this stuff thats gone down. At 12:01 a.m. Aug 1, If I were him and still a Jay, I’d go back to my condo, invite the press over, do sit ups for them while doing an interview. Do some bench presses……..

    The Dipsy

  144. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 4:24 pm

    Damn right he has to go but Riccardi doesn’t see it that way otherwise he would have been in serious talks with at least a couple of serious suitors a week ago…

  145. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    Chuck – No chance.

    NJ – Halladay is all class. Plus, and if more athletes knew this, the better off they would be, one sure way to screw a trade up is to scream out that you want to be traded. Roy knows this but I bet he wants out in the worst way.

    The Dipsy

  146. Manny

    July 24, 2009 at 4:27 pm

    I didn’t say that Chuck, but he could still be their No. 4 or 5, for sure!

  147. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    Roy’s got his bags packed, he’s been said to be very withdrawn in the Jays clubhouse. The guys going before opening day 2010 one way or another which is exactly why I wouldn’t throw the farm at the Jays when no-one else shows any signs of being willing to.

  148. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 4:36 pm

    Exactly my point Dipsy….

    Manny…that just shows how bad the Mets are right now….that they would make Carrasco their #4.

  149. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    Chuck – I said Carrasco would be the Mets’ #3. Santana/Pelfrey/Perez/Hernandez/Redding….I’d say I’m about right on with that.

  150. The Original Chuck P

    July 24, 2009 at 4:38 pm

    Taylor is blocked until 2011 (Jayson Werth becomes a free agent)…
    Brown is blocked until 2012 (Ibanez/Vic become free agents)…

    I just feel like Happ is a #4 (Hamels, Halladay, Blanton and Happ) and he’ll probably never be higher than that… it is what it is… if you can trade him rather the guy that could potentially supplant Halladay when he walks (Drabek) without giving up your top prospect (Brown), don’t you do that? I’ll be at the game tonight so I hope that Happ changes my mind 🙂 Hopefully, we can keep both.

    I have a feeling JP’s calling in a favor to Colletti with that BS… Hey, Ned, I’m going to say that I offered you a package of x, y and z and you’re going to say that you turned down. Posturing… he knows that the Dodgers would laugh in his face if he asked for any one of Loney, Kemp, Ethier or Martin let alone more than one of those players.

  151. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 4:44 pm

    just because the Mets suck at baseball doesn’t mean that we should over-evaluate Carlos Carrasco .. I could possibly be the Mets best Right-handed Long-Reliever.. but that doesn’t mean I’m a good pitcher

  152. Chuck

    July 24, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    Sorry, Petey….too much going on and too many names to keep track of here…

  153. Mike W

    July 24, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    Heyman has updated his tweet. Says phils are favorites, and that he’s not sure it’s even close. Note: no idea if this means a deal is not close, or if no one is close to the phils in being the favorite.

    Says they are talking names: “Happ or Drabek? Taylor or Brown?”

  154. Don M

    July 24, 2009 at 4:59 pm

    sounds about right, Mike W

  155. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 5:00 pm

    Chuck – no problem. I was more hoping to take the blame away from Manny rather than any credit since it seems most disagree with me 🙂

    Don M – my point wasn’t that Carrasco is a sure-fire mid-rotation pitcher, but just that what it takes to be “MLB ready” is a relative concept. That Carrasco hasn’t cracked our rotation because he’s so young and the Phils don’t want to rush him with other viable #5 options doesn’t mean he couldn’t pitch in the Show.

  156. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 5:00 pm

    To me the Phils have little incentive to offer up Drabek or Happ AND Brown or Taylor AND still give up guys like Donald. What are the Jays going to do if the Phils balk at sending all of these guys? Short of the Brewers offering the shop Amaro doesn’t need to make the Jays feel like they’ve won the lottery.

  157. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 5:03 pm

    ^Don M- if you end up being the Mets longman you better buddy up with Shawn Chacon and learn how to throw a punch at a front office guy first…

  158. Al Dattolo

    July 24, 2009 at 5:33 pm

    WHAT IS THE PANIC? NO MATTER IF WE SIGN ROY OR NOT-THE PHILLIES WILL BE THE 2009 WORLD CHAMPIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I HAVE BEEN A PHILLIES FAN FOR 49 YEARS.

  159. Kurt

    July 24, 2009 at 5:35 pm

    Buster Olney is apparently reporting that the trade is about to happen and that Kyle Drabek is a part of it……. We’ll see I guess.

  160. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 5:37 pm

    Kurt – Do you have a link?

  161. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 5:43 pm

    Kurt – ON ESPN?

    The Dispy

  162. Kurt

    July 24, 2009 at 5:45 pm

  163. Whack8888

    July 24, 2009 at 5:47 pm

    What does everyone think about Drabek, Taylor and Carrasco? Here, Ricarrdi gets to win because he gets Drabek, who was supposedly untouchable, as well as Taylor who is a fine prospect. The Phillies get to win because (aside from obviously getting Halladay) they only have to give up Carrasco on the tail end of the deal, as opposed to Donald + Marson, or Donald + Knapp or Carrasco + Donald etc. etc.

    If not this, then how about Drabek, Brown and Carrasco? Also, do you think a Drabek and Taylor/Brown + 1 other player could get a deal done, that would be good for both the Phillies and the Blue Jays?

  164. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 5:49 pm

    Riccardi said yesterday that “Roy has not demanded a trade. We know what he wants and he knows what he wants”. Translation: GET ME THE HELL OUTTA HERE!

    The Dipsy

  165. Pingback: Baseballbriefs.com

  166. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 5:55 pm

    Drabek, Taylor, Marson, Donald… Glad I’m not Amaro…

  167. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 5:55 pm

    Hmm…supposedly Olney reported that on espn950 but I turned on the audio stream and right now Missanelli is taking calls about Mike Vick, so I’m skeptical.

    Whack- I think the Jays will insist on Donald because they desperately need a SS. On the low end, maybe they take Drabek/Donald/Savery/Gose?

  168. RhyZa

    July 24, 2009 at 5:58 pm

    Guys, it’s not JP’s fault that the Dodgers have suspect prospects not already in the majors. This makes the demand of 5-6 (questionable prospects) or 2-3 of the better ones who already made the jump seem worse than it is. LA expressed interest in Doc, so JP told them what it would take. Besides, not too long ago LA said they wanted Doc without giving up any top prospects or picking up salary. It’s just negotiation, that’s all it is.

  169. Petey Pablo

    July 24, 2009 at 6:00 pm

    Well, should have stuck to my original trade package since I called it around 2pm this afternoon. That’s a fair deal for both sides, IMO.

  170. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 6:03 pm

    To me getting two guys who have a chance to be regulars on the Jays opening day roster AND Drabek and Taylor seems too much to me…

  171. Whack8888

    July 24, 2009 at 6:04 pm

    Petey Pablo – I did not know that about the Jays — also, who is their third out fielder — I know they have Rios and Wells (both with huge contracts that will be kind of hard to move, unless of course, some team like the Mets trades for Rios) so maybe they are not as interested in Taylor. This would really be too bad for the Phils, because I think he is their best trade piece. He is good with upside etc., and the Phils already have a decent out field and other out field prospects.

    I wonder if Carrasco, Taylor, Savery, Donald, and Carpenter/Kendrick could get the deal done. That is three decent pitching prospects, and Taylor and Donald is nothing to sneeze at. For the Phils, giving up Carrasco, Savery and Donald are probably the only prospects that “hurt” but I think that is a pain worth Halladay.

    If that is too much, maybe carrasco, Taylor, Donald, Carpenter and Kendrick?

  172. Whack8888

    July 24, 2009 at 6:07 pm

    Note for last comment, I am aware that no one wants Carpenter or Kendrick haha, but they arent that bad as a 5th guy in the trade or combined as a replacement for a 4th guy

  173. Brian of CO

    July 24, 2009 at 6:13 pm

    “I just feel like Happ is a #4 (Hamels, Halladay, Blanton and Happ) and he’ll probably never be higher than that…” Not so certain of that. I would put Happ above Blanton at the very least. I am becoming skeptical of Hamels anymore, honestly.

  174. Brian of CO

    July 24, 2009 at 6:16 pm

    Now they are saying AL East. No one knows, its a bunch of speculation getting us phans spun up.
    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090724&content_id=6032294&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

  175. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 6:17 pm

    The Jays want a C and a middle infelder. They just do. I think Marson and Donald are definitely in this deal. I think giving them Carrasco and Knapp in that deal would be “fair”.

    The Dipsy

  176. Brian of CO

    July 24, 2009 at 6:24 pm

    I found this interesting. Obviously the same names reported, however, in skimming the article, I didnt see Happ’s name. I like that honestly. If we keep Happ, while it would get rid of several of our top prospects, I think it dramatically increases the Phils chance of a repeat.

    http://www.baseballtraderumors.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=11529

  177. psujoe

    July 24, 2009 at 6:37 pm

    I’m sticking with (Drabek or Happ), Taylor, Marson, Donald and Carrassco for Halladay and Downs.

  178. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 6:55 pm

    When did Downs get pulled into all of this?

    The Dipsy

  179. psujoe

    July 24, 2009 at 7:05 pm

    Dipsy, It was reported that the Jays would be willing to add to the deal to get the guys they want. It’s my feeling that if the Phils have to part with Drabek and (taylor or Brown) plus others that we should have Downs added. Let’s be real. If they trade Halladay the firesale is on. Some suggested Scutaro, but we need Pen help.

  180. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 7:14 pm

    Riccardi is a complete jackass asking for guys of the Dodgers roster and then Drabek, Happ and Brown… Lets see what he gets in the off-season… it’ll probably come with a pink slip after a 5th place finish.

  181. psujoe

    July 24, 2009 at 7:19 pm

    If Riccardi waits until the off season someone lese will be making the deal for Halladay. Buster Olney estimates that Halladay’s trade value drops 40% if he’s dealt after the deadline. If the Jays will even be able to deal him(in other words Halladay wants out, now!)

  182. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 7:21 pm

    I would love Halladay, Scutaro, and Downs. The they can have Drabek, Brown/Taylor, Marson, Donald, Carrasco.

    The Dipsy

  183. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 7:29 pm

    Then. I meant. Of course he wants out. Riccardi was asked yesterday when Halladay told him he wasn’t gonna resign and Riccardi said that he “didn’t recall exactly when”. Really? “Where were you when your star player told you he didn’t wanna play for you anymore?” is right up there with “Where were you when Kennedy was shot?” and “where were you when the towers went down?” as far as being emblazoned in your memory. If any of you guys are interested, I am at a bar and me and my buddies have a conference call scheduled with this guy for 7:45.

    The Dipsy

  184. psujoe

    July 24, 2009 at 7:31 pm

    Speaking of bars. I had my first shot of rootbeer vodka made by three olives. Pretty good and not too sweet.

  185. NJ

    July 24, 2009 at 7:32 pm

    Dipsy- If it’s Riccardi, remember to finish your ‘phrasing’ with ‘and the horse you rode in on’…

  186. psujoe

    July 24, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    This rain delay could kill our bull pen if Happ can’t continue.

  187. psujoe

    July 24, 2009 at 7:39 pm

    Let the games begin.

    6:07pm: Andy Martino of The Philadelphia Inquirer reports that the Blue Jays have asked for Kyle Drabek, J.A. Happ and outfielder Dominic Brown.

  188. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 7:40 pm

    Thats funny. I have read that this guy has a serious rep for being completely full of crap…in the bad way. And the horse he rode in on.

    The Dipsy

  189. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 7:41 pm

    Andy Martino? The lounge singer. I’m not doing that deal.

    The Dipsy

  190. psujoe

    July 24, 2009 at 7:43 pm

    LOL. Don’t shoot the messanger. I think we all agree that it’s one of (Happ or Drabek) and one of (Taylor or Brown) as the two main pieces. After that we’ll see.

  191. The Dipsy

    July 24, 2009 at 7:51 pm

    Andy Martino seems pretty sure of himself. I’d like to see the following occur: I would love to see Ruben offer what he thinks is the fair deal for Halladay. Not a “jumping off” point. I’m talking the “real” deal. And then he should tell Riccardi that he gets one “counter”. After that, every time Riccardi comes back with a new deal, Ruben actually makes his end worse.

    The Dipsy

  192. Philly Texan

    July 24, 2009 at 8:18 pm

    My question is: how did Martino get those names and how can he be so sure?

    You know the phils would never divulge which of their players they’re considering trading.

    So it has to be coming from Toronto — maybe the Jays trying to put pressure on the Amaro to accept an outrageous deal.

    Again, no way both Happ and Drabek can be in the deal. And the Jays ought to know that…..

    So, I think this is posturing. Or at least the opening of the serious negotiations. Hopefully Amaro will bargain down to Drabek, Brown, Carrasco, Donald or some combination there of.

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