Somebody Has to Say It – Phillies Nation

Somebody Has to Say It

The immediate days after the World Series were surely more fun last year.

At the same time, losing hurt a lot more in 1993. So I guess it’s true: winning is the easiest cure for losing. Had the Phillies not beat the Rays last season, I’d probably be beside myself after a loss like Wednesday night.

Now I know that I might take some heat for this column. People might not like what I have to say, but sometimes you have to make a point rather than try to win a popularity contest.

In a world where Facebook statuses and Twitter updates are up-to-the-second with what is going on, everybody is entitled to their opinion. Yet, that doesn’t mean everybody’s opinion is correct. It also doesn’t mean mine is correct either, so take it with a grain of salt.

Midway through Wednesday night’s disappointment, I pulled out my phone and read how people were bitching on FB and Twitter and the general consensus was “must be nice to buy a championship” or “at least we bring up our own players.”

I’d like to think it’s that easy, but let’s be real. The better team won. If it was that easy to “buy a championship” how come the Yankees hadn’t won since 2000? Hell, how come they hadn’t been to a World Series since 2003? Sure New York went out and spent $423 million dollars last off-season, but how much of that money really beat our beloved Phillies this past week?

C.C. Sabathia 0-1 3.29 ERA 13.2 IP 11 H 6 BB 12K

A.J. Burnett: 1-1 7.00 ERA 9 IP 8 H 6 BB 11 K

Mark Teixeira: .136 AVG 3/22 1 HR 3 RBI

The Phillies lost to the likes of Derek Jeter and his 11 hits, along with Johnny Damon with his base running and killer at-bats. Hideki Matsui and his all-world performance in only three starts. Mariano Rivera and his….well he’s just that damn good.

To go along with that, the Phillies lost because Ryan Howard went 4-23. Jimmy Rollins and Shane Victorino hit a combined .200. Solo homeruns don’t win games. Cole Hamels just couldn’t get it going this postseason and the World Series was no different.

When you draw 26 walks and only score 27 runs, something didn’t go right. The Phillies leading hitter this World Series was Carlos Ruiz batting out of the eight and nine hole. This leads me to my biggest culprit this series: Charlie Manuel.

If you are a Manuel lover, now is the time to move to a different posting on this website. Sure, Charlie doesn’t play on the team so his role in the loss can’t be measured in batting average, runs scored or earned run average. When certain people are hitting and others aren’t, it’s not that hard to juggle a lineup and change things up a bit. The Yankees left-handed pitchers completely owned Ryan Howard this series. Why not Howard move to fifth and let Werth hit clean up against the lefties? Why not move Chooch up in the order? Why not split up the struggling combination of Rollins and Victorino to get some men on base for Utley? Manuel’s poor management of this series can sure lead you to second guess a lot of things that happened over the course of the six games.

Game One – Despite having a 6-0 lead, Manuel sent Cliff Lee back out for the ninth inning. In any short series, it isn’t hard to know that your best pitcher is most valuable when you can use him in as many games as possible. Had Lee come out of the game with a comfortable lead, the possibility of pitching him on three days of rest to set up another date with Sabathia in Game Four could have been a more realistic possibility. Instead, Lee went back out, finished the game, labored a bit in the ninth and threw 122 pitches in the opening game.

Game Two – This game featured the the infamous decision not to start the runners before what turned out to be an inning-ending double play by Chase Utley. Manuel then lambasted Tim McCarver for suggesting that he might have made the wrong decision. I’m not a big McCarver fan, but this time he’s right. When playing from behind against the greatest closer ever, you can’t play scared – you have to play aggressive. If you start the runners and Utley hits a line-drive it’s a double play. However, if you don’t start them and Utley hits a hard groundball (like he did) it’s the same double play. The call might have been blown, but the inning before New York was on the short end of the stick – so that evened out. Had Charlie started the runners, the Phillies would have had men on 2nd and 3rd for Ryan Howard with two outs in a two-run game. We’ll never know…

Game Three – A lot went wrong for the Phillies on Saturday night. However a few big spots stick out. Up 2-0 and with Andy Pettitte on the ropes, would it have been that hard for Manuel to send a “take” sign to Sam Perlozzo before Victorino’s at-bat in the second inning? Rollins had just drawn a quick walk and Victorino was swinging out of his shoes on the next two pitches. Victorino managed to save face with a sacrifice fly, but imagine if he was a bit more patient at the plate and gets the hit that changes the game. This one isn’t all Charlie; I’m just pointing it out.

My biggest gripe with Manuel in this game was using Eric Bruntlett as his sixth-inning pinch hitter with a man on and two outs. Down 6-4, Manuel decided to save Ben Francisco for an opportunity that never came and went with Bruntlett – who had 18 more hits than I did this season – against Pettitte. A fly ball ended the inning and any chance at a rally to tie the game.

Game Four – Not starting Cliff Lee, who had said he would have started on three days rest might have been the beginning of the end for the Phillies. Joe Blanton pitched good enough to keep the team in the game, but if you are going to trade for the difference-making ace in midseason, don’t you have to use him every chance you get? Look at C.C. and his workload the past two years. Pedro Feliz bailed out this poor decision (another decision that Manuel took offense to in post game press conferences, may I remind you) with a home run to tie the game in the bottom of the eighth. However, it was the ninth inning that made this a 3-1 Yankees series lead.

Some people questioned bringing in Brad Lidge to start the ninth. I had no issues with it. I thought he had earned the right with his performance last year as well as his performance throughout the playoffs this year. But when Johnny Damon got on base, everybody in the Delaware Valley knew he was taking second base. Lidge couldn’t keep base runners on all year and this situation was no different. How could a pitchout have not been an option? Let’s rewind first though. Before the two-bag steal, Manuel called for an infield shift that we all know left 3rd base unattended. I can count on my hands the amount of times that the Phils used this shift this year, so not sure why he thought it was a good idea in this spot against Tex. Why do it with two-outs and a man on first? A single doesn’t beat you there. No pitchout, shift in place, we all know what happens next…man on third, Lidge’s slider seemingly a liability should it get in the dirt, a fat fastball to A-Rod, and a Posada double all add up to a 7-4 loss that will not soon be forgotten.

Game Five – The questionable calls by Manuel on Monday night wound up being all-for-nothing as Game 7 never happened, however they sure made you think. Again with a six-run lead, Manuel sent Cliff Lee out to the mound in the seventh when conservation was key. “The Jeweler” as my friends and I like to call Lee (because he deals in gems) got into trouble to start the inning and had to be pulled. Also in the eventful eighth inning, Charlie pulled out Victorino due to his sore hand. Whenever Shane had to come out during the regular season, Werth moved to centerfield. Instead, it was Francisco who went to center and Werth stayed in right. I think we all remember the throw to the plate that Francisco attempted to make. The Phils went on to win the game, but it just kept bringing more and more questions to mind about what was going on in Charlie’s head during the series.

Game Six was the one game the Phillies were never really in. I’m not pinning this one on Charlie or pointing out any of his judgmental shortcomings for Wednesday night. One team showed up to play, the other didn’t.

Like I said, it is easy to point fingers at anybody over a tough loss; and while Hamels and Lidge struggled on the mound and Howard along with almost the entire offense struggled at the plate, Charlie Manuel labored from his spot on the steps. Last year, I thought Joe Maddon outmanaged Manuel, but the Phillies were the better team so it wasn’t as big a factor. This year, the Phillies couldn’t afford to have that same luxury.

I’m not asking for Charlie’s head. Far from it. Managers make mistakes throughout the course of the season, and when you win three division titles and two pennants in a row those mistakes are quickly forgotten. However, over the span of a six-game series to end the season, mistakes made will stick out like sore thumbs and will be remembered all winter long.

Yet too many people were giving the skipper a free pass and I know I’ll take some heat from this on the comments page. You can agree or disagree to those point, but I think we can all agree on a couple things:

  • The Phillies are still the class of the National League. One day after the season ended, the Phillies have to be the favorites to get back to the World Series. They are more complete top-to-bottom than any of their competitors in the Senior Circuit.
  • Decisions have to be made. Pedro Feliz, Pedro Martinez, Chan Ho Park and Brett Myers are the four biggest question marks when talking about who comes back and who walks away. Who would you bring back?
  • While Hamels and Lidge had rough seasons, getting Hamels back to form is the biggest priority in the off-season. If Lidge doesn’t have it, there are other closing options – not only on the current roster, but others that will be available during the course of next season. However, there aren’t many pitchers who have showed the capabilities that Hamels has juts hanging around. If Cole can get back to 2008 form, the 1-2 punch of Lee and Hamels can be a knockout. But if Cole can’t find that form that put the ’08 Phillies over the top, it leaves a lot of people wondering what to do with the former World Series MVP.

Here’s to a helluva season….95 days until pitchers and catchers report.



  1. Dills

    November 6, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    “Solo homeruns don’t win games.”


    I can’t remember how many times I screamed at the television in both excitement and frustration during this post-season. No matter how incredible it is to see a display pure power (or jumping on a pitcher’s mistake) with a player like Utley, Howard, etc crush the ball into the stands, it’s the “small ball” that truly wins games. Get some base runners, especially in scoring position, and you greatly increase the impact of the long ball when/if it happens.

  2. Tim

    November 6, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    I’m not so sure about your point about their new 400 million dollar trio. Teixeira wasn’t much of a presence, but AJ and Sabathia contributed two of the four Yankee wins in this series (it’s true that Sabathia didn’t get the W in his second start, but he pitched well enough for the Yankees to be in the game enough to win it). But your point stands, we went up against the best, and they beat us. As for the Yankees, they went up against the best team in the NL (and in my opinion, the only team in both leagues that is capable of going toe-to-toe with them on paper) and came out on top. How they got there ($$$$) and what kinds of people their players and fans are (douchey) is a separate issue from how they actually played, which in this case was like champions, as much as I hated to see it.

  3. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    I said it all year and I will say it again, losing Jimy Williams was as detrimental to this team as Hamels and Lidge’s struggles and the entire offense sans Utley and Ruiz going MIA in the World Series.

    Charlie did seem completely out managed in this series by a guy who I don’t particularly find to be a good manager at all. The thing about Charlie is that he is great at getting his guys to play for him. They love him. He is a great players coach. But he is a good awful strategist whose own stubbornness or loyalty comes back to bite him in the butt. He reminds me of Andy Reid in that sense.

    The Phillies absolutely had no right winning this series, not with the way they were coached and certainly not with the way they played. The Yankees showed up and did their job. No doubt about it.

    But suppose Manuel had started Lee in game 4, Lee would have pitched well enough to beat Sabathia who didn’t really pitch that well at all. Say you win that game, now its 2-2 going into game 5. You could have started anyone with an arm in game 5 and you would have won because Burnett was that bad. Now your up 3-2 going back to NY. Do you win game’s 6 and 7? Who knows but at least then Lee is available to start game 7 and you have the luxury of only having to win 1 out of 2 instead of both.

    I have no problem with Pedro starting game 6. After what he did vs the Dodgers and in game 2, he deserved the start. I didn’t think he would completely crap the bed as he did but I have no issue with him getting the nob.

    In the end, this isn’t on Manuel but he played a huge rule and I can’t help but wonder if Jimy Williams not being there, or Dubee being what to me seems like the most inept pitching coach of all time, played even bigger roles in the way this series played out than people realize.

    Well done Nick.

  4. Mike Bishop

    November 6, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    Would we be as critical of Manuel had we won? Maybe, maybe not. I don’t think this soon following the Series though.

  5. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    I agree Mike. It’s easy to be critical when your on the wrong end of a series. The playoffs among other things turns second guessing into an art form. Manuel made some questionable moves last year as well, the difference was that they won and were thus able to cover up for it. He didn’t have that luxury this year.

  6. Phil

    November 6, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    I’m not here to talk about the past, so . . .

    In terms of who I’d bring back, I’d bring back Chan Ho Park and Brett Myers. There should be upgrades available for 3rd, and Pedro Feliz is just brutal at the plate. The other Pedro is a question mark for me – maybe at the right price, he’s a good idea to keep around?

  7. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    I would bring back Park and maybe Myers. Both Pedro’s can go. The big reason I was cool with bringing in Martinez was because we were only depending on him for a few months and not a full season. I don’t think he is really good enough to go an entire year and be productive. Now would I take him as a 5th starter? Sure but I think he wants better than that.

  8. Mike Mariano

    November 6, 2009 at 11:36 am

    Well done Nick, I agree with most everything you said. The Yankees were better than the Phillies and that was simple. We still could’ve taken the series with a few breaks here and there, but that wouldn’t have made us the better team.

    Most of all we should be happy for the awesome two years we’ve had and hope that the boys can put it back together for another run in ’10. Also, I don’t care if the Yanks were a better team than us in’09, I wouldn’t trade our team for theirs in a million years. How much fun is the bunch of guys we have? At the end of the day thing are great in Philly right now, despite losing in the series.

  9. The Original Chuck P

    November 6, 2009 at 11:37 am

    You make some good points… I’ve been able to hang my hat on the fact that Jeter, Rivera, Matsui, Pettitte and Damon had more of an impact on this series than the hired guns (A-Rod, Tex, CC, Burnett).

    Charlie made some mistakes but it is the players that didn’t execute. The Yankees held an edge in all of the clutch categories: RISP, LOB and 2 out RBI’s. We did not play sharp in the field (Howard not throwing home, Vic misplaying the ball in the OF, Rollins not getting his glove down on a play he typically makes…). Charlie did make some poor decisions (esp the shift… WTF?) but I don’t think that his mismanagement cost us this series.

    I will say this: I don’t agree with the suggestion that Lee should have pitched in game 4.

    If you pitch Lee against Sabathia in game 4, you still have to pitch
    someone else in game 5… Cliff Lee has NEVER pitched on short rest in his career. You’re suggesting an experiment in the WS. Game 7 is a COMPLETELY different story… if we had made it to a game 7, I would have expected Lee to at least make himself available in relief on short rest.

  10. Stuart

    November 6, 2009 at 11:39 am

    I would leave Pedro M behind. Look at his games when he had to pitch on normal rest and not extended long rest. He was solid but not great. So as someone said a number 5 Starter absolutely but I dont think he will want that. Brett Myers. No. Got a couple of injuries and never really was good enough to come back. I think hes to much controversy and not worth the trouble. Chan Ho. How could you say no. He was the most consistent person for us out of the bullpen this year. Absolutely keep him. Feliz is a toss up. His defense is one of the best in the league but his hitting is awful. It depends on who we could get to replace him. Someone who is a solid fielder and good hitter, then absolutely. But if we get only a minor upgrade in hitting then no. I would rather have his defense but he should absolutely be switched with Chooch in the lineup. He seems to ruin rallies that start before him and then Chooch does something but its too late.

    As for this article. I have never agreed more. Last year I was even very upset with his decisions but since they won it did not matter. I never though Charlie was a good lead manager. I feel like he would be a great manager if he had a really smart bench coach that would make strategy decisions and just relay them through charlie.

  11. Don M

    November 6, 2009 at 11:42 am

    How is Pedro Feliz brutal at the plate???

    .262 avg, 12 HR, 82 RBI

    There aren’t a whole lot of better options at 3b

  12. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 11:45 am

    Nice work. The Phillies need to reload in terms of pitching. The lineup will stay the same, except Feliz has to go. He is not an everyday player on any team that hopes to beat the Yankees in the WS. I want the Yankees to get back to the World Series next year because I want the Phillies to face them again and beat them. Thats is what ALL of next season is about, the ultimate showdown and the ultimate rematch. Everyone in baseball who is neutral would agree to that.

    Now. This is what they need.

    Go out and sign 2 or 3 guys to rebuild the depth of your bullpen. That would include re-signing Park and fully making Bastardo a reliever.

    On top of that, they need to sign or trade for a guy with closing experience. Rafael Soriano is a free agent, Bobby Jenks is on the trading block. That way if Lidge doesnt come back to his great form then you dont need to ask Madson to close until he has matured for a few more seasons in high pressure closing situations. You can still let Madson occasionally close though, like randomly to build towards him eventually closing. The likes of Romero, Condrey, Durbin? Eh, bring in competition to make them fight for their slots and prove they still belong.

    They should try and trade for some kind of Right-handed starting pitcher to bolster the rotation who is affordable. Through injury or ineffectiveness the rotation got exposed a bit in the WS behind Lee. Cole Hamels has to be injured or something.

    Empty Slot
    Dont anyone dare mention Moyer, they just need to pay him off to retire, they need to get past that stage if they want to take on the Yankees and beat them.

    They need to replace and upgrade over Matt Stairs and Eric Bruntlett by upgrading their pinch hitters.

    They need a better backup catcher, there are plenty of free agents.

    Feliz has to go, they need to trade for a younger, cheaper guy with upside who can hit consistently. he will provide and injection of youthful enthusiasm to a team that is going to start getting older and older in years to come.

  13. The Original Chuck P

    November 6, 2009 at 11:50 am

    Are we putting on our GM hats already?

    I’m surprised that people are suggesting that we get rid of Pedro Feliz… besides being a vaccuum at third base, the guy hit .264 with 12 HR and 82 RBI hitting out of the 7 hole. He had a bad postseason but still managed to come up with a couple of big hits… plus his option is a reasonable $5.5 million.

    I would not feel good about relying on Martinez for an entire season…

    I would not bring back Myers unless we’re paying him as a reliever ($4-5 million) and even then, I would have to see what he’s got before signing anything. He’s always been a distraction, he has injury issues and he hasn’t been the same since getting jerked around in 2007.

    Park was great… would love to see him back.

    We need bench help and bullpen arms… we should also think about our plans for a 5th starter. As it stands, you’re looking at a mix of these four guys: Kendrick/Bastardo/Moyer/Drabek… love Drabek but is he ready? Will Moyer save face and retire? Will Kendrick be able to give us some quality starts? Is Bastardo better off in relief?

  14. Don M

    November 6, 2009 at 11:53 am

    A younger, cheaper thirdbaseman, who can hit consistently, with lots of upside

    that shouldn’t be hard to find at all .. they practically grow on trees.

    They’ve got lots of options of guys on the farm that can be traded for a 3b this year… but Feliz did a nice job, and at $5 Million option for next season, he would be a wise move to keep him this year

    There is a reason our defense was so good last year.. lets not abondon that trying to improve our NL-best offense

  15. Don M

    November 6, 2009 at 11:55 am

    Brett Myers .. $12 M over 2 years.. or something similar

    Gives us RH-depth for a starting pitcher.. and we wouldn’t need him to be anything better than a #3-#4-#5

    if that fails, or if Lidge fails … you’re got your Closer in house already

  16. Joe D

    November 6, 2009 at 11:55 am

    Agree w/ the analysis of the series. One thing I’d add was Pedro should have been yanked after 2.2 IP (before the Matsui 2 run single). Gotta go to Happ there.

    Bring back Park (sold RH 7th inning guy), Myers (on the cheap to compete for a SP slot), and look elsewhere at 3B. Additionally, Erik Bedard intrigues me as a FA pickup.

  17. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 11:57 am

    I know they are hard to find. The only prospects in their system who are untouchable to me are Drabek and Taylor. Brown would be hard to trade, but if youre talking about what you just said: a younger, cheaper, consistent hitting 3B with upside (not LOTS necessarily, but SOME upside, some room for growth), then you absoltely consider it…

  18. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    Yeah Id bring back mYers cheaply as well…

  19. Don M

    November 6, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    Right, but to say that “Feliz has to go” … and your replacement plan is to hopefully trade one of your best prospects, for a young stud-thirdbaseman .. . I don’t think that is a realistic plan

    Our best bet would be taking, maybe Michael Taylor and ? Joe Savery? (or some other throw-in pitcher) .. and trying to get a nice 3b prospect that is maybe AA or AAA level now

    Let Pedro play for the 2010 season at $5 or $5.5 M .. and give any young guy a chance to continue to grow.. trading for an MLB-ready 3b, is going to cost a fortune, and with Feliz still under contract, it wouldn’t be a wise move

  20. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    But we have nothing in the sytem at 3B. we need a younger guy who can play now and who may be just starting arbitration or not far into it who can give up a like 3 years to really build up 3B in our system.

  21. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    I thought thats what Feliz was supposed to serve as, but they havetn done that yet.

    I saw feliz as a major weakness against the Yankees. He missed several balls during the postseason that he used to get to but didnt because he would have had to dive. He also blew several chances with RISP in the postseason and in the WS. in game 6, he could have taken them to within 1 run i think and he just flat out blew it again.

    You want to beat these big taems in a series you cant have weaknessses like that.

  22. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    Id do Brown and Savery, but yeah, same basic idea…thats not a bad idea either, if we had a guy waiting liek that Id be MUCH more able to deal with Feliz…

  23. WillieWill

    November 6, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    Well said Nick. I hate the Yankees with every fiber of my being but I refuse to play the $$$ card after watching that whole series. The Phillies got outpitched and outmanaged.

    I was praying for Charlie Manuel to do something dramatic like shuffle the lineup but he just hoped the same ole’ same ole’ would beat the Yankees, everyone with any sense knew that just wasn’t gonna happen. And that’s the only part that hurts a little; you had the feeling that with some sly managing, they woulda had a shot!

    And to Don M’s comment “A younger, cheaper thirdbaseman, who can hit consistently, with lots of upside-that shouldn’t be hard to find at all .. they practically grow on trees.” I hope that was sarcasm. 3b who can play both sides of the ball well aren’t laying around in free agency.

  24. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    “Phillies Exercise Option on Cliff Lee.”

    That has to be THE biggest no-brainer automatic move of the past several offseasons, lol.

  25. Don M

    November 6, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    I think that Victorino, and Howard are to blame (if anyone) for the WS loss

    really it comes down to pitching.. we’re setup to lots of games with a solid rotation.. but not really setup for a SERIES

    Feliz’s range is definitely down.. but he’s still the most accurate 3b in the NL.. he can still charge the ball really well .. and 82 RBI means that he did a great job with RISP this season .. maybe not in the postseason .. but you don’t get rid of a guy because of a subpar playoff run

    we have so much offense on our team, that DEFENSE at 3b needs to be the main thing you look for … right now, I don’t see anyone better than Feliz available

  26. phillyjoe

    November 6, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    I would just like to say in Cholly’s defense that it is very easy to manage a game after you already know the outcome. Its easy now to say “oh manuel shoulve started the runners” or “lee shouldve been pitching on short rest in game five” because we know how the series. I dont think Manuel was “outmanaged” I just think he had to make a decision and things just didnt go his way.
    I mean do you really think Joe Girardi is a better manager than charlie. With all the talent the yankees have plus the luxury of the DH a monkey couldve managed that team.

  27. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    Don’t be shocked if Werth is traded for a 1-2 starter and Taylor is brought up to take his spot. Werth’s stock will never get higher. Though personally I’d keep him on the team and try and go after Beltre and make another run at Halladay.

  28. BS

    November 6, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    Let’s be honest, Cholly made some bad moves (I think the worst was not pulling Pedro when it was 2-1 and Matsui was up, it was clear Pedro did not have his stuff), but he wasn’t outmanaged by Girardi anymore than Torre was outmanaged by Cholly in the NLCS. If your decisions go right, you look like a genius. If they don’t, you look like a dunce.

    Case in point, if Lidge had held the tie in game 4, and we won the game in the bottom of the 9th, Cholly would’ve been praised as a genius for not “panicking” and basically guaranteeing us of going up 3 games to 2, going into NY. Alternatively, if Cholly let Lee pitch in game 4 and he lost, he would’ve been lambasted for starting him on short rest (and maybe for letting him pitch the 9th in game 1), and on the flip side, even if Lee won, and Blanton lost game 5, people would’ve been questioning him about using Lee too early. You can’t win and you can’t lose.

  29. Pat Gallen

    November 6, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    I’m not sold that Feliz’s defense is all that great. He’s going to be a year older and coming off a long season where he played 158 games plus playoffs. He will be a step slower a year from now and it’s hard to believe his bat can be any better than the 82 RBI he produced.

    If I were hitting behind Howard, Werth, and Ibanez, I might knock in 75. Beltre has great defense, but I wouldnt be willing to overpay for him. Garrett Atkins is an intriguing buy low candidate.

    But we know how much Charlie liked Pedro, so he may very well be back.

  30. Don M

    November 6, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    you can’t trade Werth.. because you wouldn’t have a bat behind Howard.. and Ibanez slowed down so much in the 2nd-half , that you have to consider the realistic possibility that we’ll never see him come close to his 1st-half stats from this year

    I wouldn’t be shocked to see Ibanez on the trade-block to an AL team at the deadline this year, or after the 2010 season

    Werth is too good to trade ..

  31. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    I would take Atkins in a second. He is after all Chase’s best bud. Might be able to coax him here on the cheap. Though honestly, I’d rather they go out and spend the money to sure up their rotation and add a solid back up go to guy for the pen. The rest, go on the cheap. If that means bringing back Feliz so be it. Though I think DeRosa could be had for a decent price. But I wouldn’t over pay to fix the bench. Fracisco is a decent starting spot but again, people have to realize, it isn’t just about who is on your bench it is about your playing time. Dobbs was so great as a PH last year because he got a ton of at bats when Feliz was hurt. Same thing with Stairs, when we traded for him he had 3/4’s of a year in as a starter/DH. You could have the ghost of Teddy Ballgame on your bench but if he doesn’t get any at bats then he is going to be useless as a pinch hitter.

    That’s not to say you can’t upgrade, significantly over Beardo but just understand you can’t expect to get pinch hitters who are going to hit 280-300 for you.

  32. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    I agree with you Don M. I was just posing the possibility since it is a chance to sell at an all time high. If it is for a stud like Halladay, I would consider it.

  33. Don M

    November 6, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    I don’t see how anyone that watches the Phillies night-in, night-out .. isn’t impressed with Pedro Feliz defensively at 3b ???

    Outside of Scott Rolen.. who has been better in the years since Mike Schmidt?

    Beltre would be interesting… he plays good defense (and used to have lots of power… juice maybe?) .. but I wonder how much he would cost?? .. probably too much if you’re looking at extensions for Blanton, Victorino.. Lee .. etc

  34. Nah_Roots

    November 6, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    This post is the epitome of hindsight. Holy shit. Just…bad.

  35. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    I am impressed with Feliz’s defense for sure but 3B is usually a power position and although the Phillies have a lot of power in their line up, they desperately need a power hitting right handed bat. 3B is the only place that is an option since everyone else seems to be entrenched in their spot. I would take Beltre. But my question is this, would you rather Beltre so he can be another right handed power bat or Figgins and have him lead off and move J-Roll down the line up where he belongs?

    Beltre and Figgins will cost roughly the same amount I think in F.A.

  36. Bob Kahn

    November 6, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    I agree with your post on not blaming this on “buying a championship” – without Lee we would not be there. The Yankees won primarily with their homegrown talent.

    I disagree wih you on the manager. Many people talk about the players like they are pieces in some sort of game. But they are people and to the degree that you juggle them you hurt their confidence. Moving Howard down in the order would show lack of trust. The guy was just NLCS MVP and the next week you move him down in the order?

    Game 1 – Lee was pitching a shutout with a 6 run lead. He was the best pitcher the Phillies had. Charlie never really considered pitching him after three days rest and given that he has never done this it was no time to experiment.

    Game 2 – It is always easy to say what should have been done after something does not work. I will point out that Charlie has done this all season. It is a matter of style and Charlie likes to set up for his big men and that is a rational tactic.

    Game 3 – This has nothing to do with Charlie. Victorino got the runner in so I really don’t understand what the issue is. Do I wish he had gotten a hit, yes, but I don’t think Charlie can direct the balls to specific areas of the field!

    Game 4 – As said, Charlie never planned on pitching Lee. He had won the NLDS and NLCS without doing so. I was at the game and Blanton pitched better than the numbers showed. We did not lose the series because Lee did not pitch the seventh game – there was no 7th game so this is a bogus argument.

    It is not Charlie’s fault that Lidge, Chooch and JRoll all decided not to cover third. These are basic plays and they failed in their assignments.

    Game 5 – Again, as you say the decision re game 7 is a non issue. And by the way – we WON the game so how can this be part of the reason we lost the series? Another bogus argument.

    The Phillies lost because the Yankees pitched better, hit better, ran the bases better and fielded better. It has nothing to do with the ridiculous discussion of three days rest – we lost in 6 games! Charlie did the same he always did – he put the best he had out on the field but they did not execute in most of these games.

    Go play some computer game where the players perform according to their computer algorithm. But in the real world you need to keep people motivated and show faith in them to perform. Juggling them after 171 games is not the way to win.

  37. Don M

    November 6, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    Figgins will cost a ton … I think he goes to the Cards

    you don’t need the Power at 3b, when you have a 2b, and SS that hit HR’s the way ours do .. you need DEFENSE ..and Feliz is a fine option there

    If they could trade for a guy to replace him, that would be a realistic move.. but I can’t see adding to the payroll to upgrade OFFENSIVELY at 3b

  38. Pat Gallen

    November 6, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    Time to think outside the box and think like an AL team. And if that means getting even better offensively, then I think the Phillies should consider it. Beltre, in our park, can give them 20-25 HR with great defense. However, no way they should pay him much more than what Feliz would get. His numbers have been down, he’s a buy low guy.

  39. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    Beltre is a buy low guy because his numbers went down but don’t forget he did play in Seattle for a while, not exactly a hitters paradise but at CBP, he would own that left field wall. I’d give him a 2 year deal with an option for a 3rd.

    I also agree that we need to think like an AL team but I think offensively we can beat a team like the Yankees if we have another starter who can match up with them. If you had a guy like Halladay, or even Hamels circa 08, in a 7 game series that’s 4 starts from Hamels and Lee, you win 3 of those and then you can steal a game from the remaining 3.

  40. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    Its looking like Beltre was a one year wonder. Figgins is in a totally different class. Figgins would make this team unstoppable beacuse he would hit leadoff. But he will cost much much more than any other 3B FA in my own opinion.

    Ok, they will NOT trade Jayson Werth. He is signed cheaply next year, and he will likely walk as a FA for big money is he has the same season. He could even make a Type A FA to net us a first round draft pick and a first round sandwich pick! THEN Taylor takes over. They have to try to keep Taylor happy for one more year being in the minors and then being a late season callup maybe to help at the end.

    They need a secodn starter, because Lee will get a big money deal THIS offseason with the Phils. That is who I would trade some of our prospects not names Taylor or Drabek for.

  41. joe

    November 6, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    dude…they freakin lost.

    so what..get over it…

    you know how rare it is to even make back to back world series?

    and when your ace..was missing all year and your closer was even get that far is amazing..

  42. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    They have Lee, but that had to rely on Pedro as their number two. Pedro did a FINE job down teh stretch and the playoffs except game 6, but he just ran out of gas because they relied on him too much I feel. He did have full rest for Game 6 though, didnt he?

    Halladay is too much I think, what other gusy do you think?

    Lackey would be ideal but theres no way the Phillies shoudl or will pay all that money to him – he will get Burnett money.

  43. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    I don’t think the Phillies have a chance in hell of resigning Lee.

    Gillick refused to give a pitcher a deal over 3 years, and you saw Amaro adopt that same strategy with Hamels and Madson this past off season. Lee is going to want more years or a lot more money than the Phillies can afford to offer for him to sign a 3 year contract. If you can get him at 3 years and 50 mil do it but I really don’t think that is going to happen.

    I would love to be wrong though.

    Again, I didn’t say Werth would be traded but that I wouldn’t be shocked if it happened.

  44. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    Theyre definitely giving Lee the money over the years.

    They will go 3 for 50-60 and he will take it. He would like to cash in on the past two season and that would probably do the trick.

  45. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    Despite what people may think. 3 for 50-60 IS cashing in….

  46. PhreeholdDave

    November 6, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    The Yankee fans are having their parade on Broadway. You can hear them from inside my office building.

    Did Sabathia and Burnett help them? Burnett had a great second game. Sabathia pitched well in both games. And, Texeira had a couple of big hits.

    Damon and Matsui had huge World Series for the Yankees and will become free agents. My view is that Damon has been largely a disappointment for the Yankees until this World Series. They are paying Damon $13 million per year. That is about what the Phillies pay their starting outfield of Ibanez, Werth and Victorino.

    How the heck do the Yankees even meet their payroll of $208 million? .

    Regarding, Ryan Howard’s performance, he was great in the playoffs and bad in the World Series. He was the key to beating Colorado and L.A. He has never been that effective against left-handed pitching.

    Overall, I have to say Charlie Manuel did a good job getting the team into the World Series considering Lidge had a terrible year, Hamels was mediocre this year and Brett Myers was down for the year. No matter how many times the team suffered a setback, they always came back.

    His worst moves during the World Series-(1) With an 8-5 lead and a runner on first, you always bunt to try and get that one extra run. He chose to pinch hit Stairs and he hit into a double play.
    (2) Taking out Victorino in Game 5.
    (3) Not using Happ enough. Why not go to Happ immediately after he took Pedro out?

  47. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    I agree Geoff, no way the Phillies can get Lackey unless he is willing to take less to go to a team with a chance to win. He is also somewhat of a head case so I am not sure how much that want to add a guy like that.

    As I see it the following are legit options for the Phillies:

    Eric Bedard – 31 – Type B
    Justin Duchscherer – 32 Type B
    Rich Harden – 28 – Type B
    Jon Garland – 30 – Type B
    Shawn Hill – 29
    Rich Hill – 30
    Jason Jennings – 31
    Joel Pineiro – 31 Type B
    Ben Sheets – 31 Type B

    Personally, I want no part of Bedard, he is like Hamels in that he whines and complains and he is always hurt.

    Harden, Sheets and Duchscherer are intriguing to me because I think you can get them both with incentive laden deals due to prior injuries.

    I would take a long long at Jason Jennings and Joel Pineiro.

    And dare I say Myers is a possibility.

  48. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 1:18 pm

    Myers would be nice to lock up cheap enough taht you could use him as a reliever. Sheets will go to Texas. Hill and Bedard are Lefties. Bedard is a whiner for sure. Lackey is a headcase and a half too.

    Duscherer and Harden are attractive options because they will come cheaper. BUT Harden ahs no stamina and I kind of want no part of him. He didnt go past the 7th inning like all season this year if I remember correctly! He went past the 6th only a few times.

    Piniero is an attractive option, BUT he is one of those Dave Duncan creations that may not fare as well elsewhere…beware. Shawn Hill is not an option, I wouldnt rely on Jennings either – when was he last relevant?

  49. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 1:25 pm

    I didn’t say the list was great, just tried to pick out the best of what was available. Kind of pathetic. If the Phillies are going to get a legit # 2 starter it has to either be Lackey for via trade. And since it won’t be Lackey it will have to be via trade. Unless they really truly believe that Hamels will return to form and be that number 2 starter but it would be nice to have a shut down, or close to shut down right handed starter.

    I would try and sign Beltre, Rafael Soriano and then trade for Halladay, then resign Myers and Park and call it a day. But thats just a pipe dream.

  50. Sam

    November 6, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    Damon was bought from the Sox in ’04 how does he not count? Jeter, Rivera, and Pettite were the only home-grown players that contributed, and Petitte looked beatable the whole time we just couldn’t capitalize.

  51. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    Id resign Myers and Park for the pen. Covnert bastardo to fulltime relief. Bring in a veteran lefty in Spring Trainig for depth reasons. Sign Rafael Soriano – who can close and be very nasty when he is on. Thats my top free agent relief target for the Phils. Must sign.

    Then they shoudl try to trade for another starter because I agree that signing one of these Free Agent Starters is not really a good idea at all given the cost. It wont be Halladay, the mere thought of Halladay and Lee on the same taem for like 5 second even is too much to handle.

    What trade options (right-handed) are out there?

    They need to start thinking like an AL team though, they mostly already do. BUT they need to maintain speed on the basepaths and at the top of the order. because that will be any team in any league if those two guys get on base.

  52. Matt Kwasiborski

    November 6, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    Yeah, it is tough to say what exactly went wrong. The team that played better won and hats off to the Yankees for making the right pitches and getting the right hits at the right time. I think everyone can look on this series is that the Yankees, while they won aren’t significantly better than us. And we will be right there again (barring injuries) next season. Yes, we need some changes but overall it is easy to be a Monday Morning Manager here. I of course will make some points:

    1. Phils dominated Yanks in Game 1 and got too complacent after that. They looked like they do sometimes in that they thought they were going to win and didn’t focus as hard as the Yanks did in key situations from that point on.

    2. Game 2: send the runners, don’t send the runners? Too late now. Only game though where a Yankees starter dominated us. AJ was unreal that game.

    3. Cole has to stay focused after walking Big Tex. Vic swinging for the seats and Yankees begin hitting what the Phils gave them. Damon doesn’t try to hit HRs and Yanks were focused. We also have to rock Pettitte more.

    4. Blanton was the right choice and pitched really well. The changing part was getting Rollins and Vic on in the 5th but no one even advances them. That to me is when the game was lost. Winning teams move the runners and get at least one home. I don’t agree with the shift or bringing in Lidge with the game tied. No reason to shift with Damon on base and how poorly Lidge pitches in non-save situations over his career (not just this season). Bring in Durbin and no shift and we have a chance. Love the Feliz HR off of Joba.

    5. Best game of series offensively. Utley’s 5th HR was spectacular! And we didn’t let them celebrate at home.

    6. Game 6- Yanks HAD to win that game. Pedro was shot early on and they jumped on him.

    Rollins and Vic tried to hit HRs alot of the times. Rollins focused when they absoutely needed him to. Vic also was trying to hit HRs early on.

    Utley and Howard had to hit better with runners on base. Maybe the time off was too much for Howard but you could see that slump setting in- in Game 1. Yeah, he hit 2 2Bs but the last time CC struck him out was it. Then Burnett killed him with outside curves the next night.

    Utley- was awesome though! Great show (outside of when runners were on base).

    Werth- solid series but K-ing too much in key situations.

    Feliz- looked tired at the plate but was the real reason we were in Game 4.

    Pitching- only way we would have won was if Cole from last year showed up. Pedro may have pitched Game 2 but not Game 6. Cole needs to rest and then clear his head. We also need relievers who can get a 1-2-3 inning more consistently.

    Yanks merely played better. The losses can be pointed on everyone. As someone mentioned, if we win the Blanton game and Lee wins- he looks like a genius. His big mistake was putting that shift on and pitching Lidge. Other than that, he didn’t change his style too much.

    You don’t start shaking up lineups in the WS or putting guys in situations in which they aren’t used to. We needed better focus at the plate next year. This team looked tired down the stretch but they were there and will be again!

  53. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    The only thing that awes me about the Yankees – at all – is still Rivera. That guy is just incredible. Without a doubt the greatest closer of all time. Liek its not even debateable really. The Phillies still almost got to him in game 2 when they loaded the bases. And again in teh 8th inning of Game 6.

  54. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 1:37 pm

    Does anyone else WANT the Yankees to be there again next year? It like, MUST happen. The ultimate World Series rematch. It would be the highest rated World Series in ages I feel.

  55. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    Is anyone NOT surprised that Tim Lincecum got cited for having weed on him?

  56. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    Atlanta is looking to trade Derek Lowe, Javier Vazquez, or Kenshin Kawakami…..interesting. They would have to eat mad money to move Lowe. Do you think they would deal with us at all?

  57. Sam

    November 6, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    I doubt we’d be able to get soriano considering he plays for Atlanta, but who knows.

  58. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    I doubt they would deal with us but I would take Lowe. I heard the Cubs are looking to move Zambrano and I bet Harang or Arroyo could be had from the Reds. As for other options that are out there, there really are not many, no one wants to see to part with pitching, and rightfully so.

  59. Phriggin Phan

    November 6, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    Didn’t the Mets just not sign Putz? Wouldn’t he be good for our pen? Give us some wiggle room if Lidge continues to suck llama ass…

  60. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    Soriano is a free agent so at this point he plays for no one.

    I was looking at the 2011 Free Agent class, trying to find guys that teams might be willing to trade since they are technically pending F.A’s and the only good starters I saw were:


    I very much doubt Francis, Cain or Beckett will become free agents. They will most definitely sign long term deals this year. But the rest on the list are possibilities.

  61. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    The Met’s did or are going to buy out Putz, he would be a good buy low option. He would take an incentive heavy type deal. He seemed to be better as a closer though, meaning he is a great plan B if he can be a good set up guy. Would be nice to have two possible set up guys in Madson and someone else since Madson is not ready to close yet, if ever.

  62. The Original Chuck P

    November 6, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    Figgins ain’t coming here… not a chance.

    We ain’t getting Lackey… he’s going to cost a boat load and his peripherals aren’t that good (let the Mets overpay for him)… 1.306 WHIP with a very good defense behind him.

    Pedro Feliz is a phenomenal defensive 3B and you’re absolutely nuts if you don’t see that. Defensively, he’s gotta be among the top 5 in zone rating among 3B (fangraphs isn’t working for me today… if someone wants to check that out).

    HOWEVER… I’m intrigued by what Pat says…

    We should start thinking like an AL team because we don’t have enough pop when the DH comes into play. It’s a huge disadvantage for us during the regular season (not carrying that extra pitcher) so we have to accomodate somehow. We need to somehow add power for when the DH comes into play. If we can add someone with some pop at 3B, I’m all for it… if and only if we can add a guy like Mark Derosa to complement. That is, we need a guy that can spot start for Utley and Ibanez on a regular basis AS WELL AS be a defensive replacement at 3B. Mark Derosa would be a great fit…

    Not sure how cheap Ducscherer is going to be but we’ve had some success trading with Billy Beane.

  63. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    Soriano is a free agent

  64. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    Duschherer will be cheap. He didn’t throw a pitch last year because he was diagnosed with clinical depression.

    Do you really think DeRosa will sign with someone to be a backup?

  65. George

    November 6, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    It’s way too easy to second guess a manager. I’ll point out that according to fans, Martinez was removed too soon vs. the Dodgers, but not soon enough vs. the Yanks in game two. He’s thrown almost exactly the same number of pitches. The shift? It wasn’t Manuel’s fault that Lidge or Ruiz forgot to cover.
    Anything looks bad when it somehow doesn’t work. Utley may have hit into a double play, but what if he’d hit a double? It wouldn’t have mattered then where the runners were.

    As far as next year, I have no problem with Feliz. He’s cheap, and better than anyone else for the price. 5.5 mil is less than some second rate relievers make. It’s less than Adam Eaton made. As far as Myers goes, he’ll be testing free agency, because there’s no way you offer arbitration to someone who never earned his 12 million. His pay can only be cut beyond a small percentage if he resigns as a free agent. If no one else wants him on the cheap, then maybe the Phils get him.

    The biggest issues this team faces are not third base or a number two starter. They need more bullpen arms and a major shakeup of the bench. Lee is signed for one year, and should be coaxed into more. That leaves Hamels, Blanton, Happ, and a fifth starter whose arm isn’t totally falling off. We have Kendrick, Moyer, and some minor league arms to chose from. While Hamels’ performance might be an issue, I don’t think it will be in 2010, but Happ may suffer some from sophomore jinx. He may fall a little from his current high position. Still, that leaves a pretty good starting staff, and there’s no reason to sign a pricey Ben Sheets or a Harden with money that could be used to extend Lee.

    Money should be coughed up for backups and bullpen help, and not wasted on a third base or starting pitching “upgrade,” unless those two areas show weakness in the early part of the year.

  66. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    I totally agree we need to have a Scutaro or DeRosa type (type is keyword) superutility type of guy for later in the season to protect chase utley by letting him sit a few games this coming season.

    They definitely need an AL-type lineup. they already have one, but they need that 7th slot to be more powerful. theres no way feliz drives in 82 runs again, it just aint happening. he is great defensively, but anyone who cant see that he has lost a step in all phases of his game hasnt been watching either. now, him losing a step defensively is still better than what a lot of teams have to begin with, but you gotta beware of that and look to upgrade IF an opportunity presents itself, which i would tend to go for.

    Arroyo is garbage.
    Harang – maybe that would work.
    Hallday – not happening.
    beckett, francis and cain are too precious to their teams.

    you never know though, boston does wierd stuff sometimes though….

    i am on teh same page as you in TOTALLY expecting the mets to overpay for john lackey. and maybe even try to overpay and fail allowing texas to overpay.

  67. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    theyre going to have to cur money somewhere, and I feel Feliz will fall victim to that somehow. i think they have other obligations they are free of too (eaton, thome finally).

  68. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    Here is a really good payroll analysis that was done by Pete over at Recliner GM. right after the Phillies traded for Lee.

  69. The Beerman

    November 6, 2009 at 2:41 pm

    I’ve said for weeks I would trade Werth and Happ for a top line starter. I like Werth a lot, but he really can’t hit righties. I’m not a giant Happ guy, but he had a really good season.

    You have to think of players as stocks, because thats what they are. They are property of the team they play for. Buy low, sell high. Neither Werth nor Happ’s value will ever be higher than it is right now.

    Also on the Halladay front. After seeing the pieces you had weren’t enough to win it this year, I think you would be foolish not to make a phone call to see if the offer still stands. If they don’t plan on moving Werth while his value is this high, then Taylor and Brown sit for another year not helping the team. Just a thought.

    Going into this column I wrote that we are all entitled to our opinions, so I don’t mind if you don’t agree with my Charlie bashing. However, to say that he managed a fine series is being blind by your love of the team…

  70. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    Dude, what do you not understand about the fact that Werth is our ONLY major lague right handed power hitter? ONLY. feliz is not in that class. hes a bottom of the order slop hitter whos been slowing down and declining. I want another starter too, but you cant just assume Taylor is ready right now.

    MAYBE they would do it if they got a top notch, CHEAP guy….maybe The Great Greinke? But if KC traded him their GM would be fired on the spot.

  71. Evan

    November 6, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    I like Charlie, I just don’t like him as a manager, at least not this year. He looked good last year when he didn’t really have to do much. He didn’t fall victim to exactly what Giradi did, which was overmanage his team. This year there were moves that needed to be made and he didn’t make them. He didn’t make them all season long.

    Two easy decisions that needed to be made.
    Rollins is not the leadoff guy.
    Lidge isn’t the closer.

    By July these things should have been done. I have the benefit of hindsight in saying so, but Charlie is the one getting the salary. The world series was just a disaster in terms of managing starters and the pen, especially game 6.

  72. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    Where do we think Myers will land?

    I say Tampa Will get him on the cheap and he will reunite with Burrell.

  73. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    Some more payroll analysis this time courtesy of David Murphy:

  74. j reed

    November 6, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    why go for ben sheets, he’s a righty with a power curve ….unless you can get him cheaper than Myers. We need another sinkerballer/ marquis type of guy…I’m sick of the the long balls…we have one off the best infields and how many DP opportunies did we get this WS…two, maybe three. Fly ball outs and K’s are great but no chance for a force play if there’s a man on first and less than 2 outs.
    What the bullpen did in the NL play-offs was phenomilnal but it caught up to us in a big way… was a MASH unit that got exposed. And while the “bought a championship” argument can be contested the difference between both clubs is this: they could have restocked their middle relief core or bench in a heartbeat, where we may not have without making some sacrifices elsewhere. That’s what Yankee fans don’t get among other things…A cheaper alternative to buying a contact hitter is to tell Vic and Rollins to hit for contact and not let them go up there and take power cuts whenever.

  75. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    In case you haven’t heard, according to, Amaro told Brett Myers that they will not be pursuing him.

  76. Ed R.

    November 6, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    I think Brett will go to Milwaukee or Baltimore.

  77. j reed

    November 6, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    Taylor also was injured…Sportmansman Hernia at the end of the season….that could delay his arrival in the Bigs

  78. BS

    November 6, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    Guys, we are not getting another top line starter. I’ll guarantee you that. With the bullpen and bench holes that we have, and more than a $100 million already committed to contracts or pending arbitrations, money needs to be spent elsewhere, and unless the Phils are going to bump their payroll to $150 mil, they won’t be able to afford a Lackey.

    Besides, I’m confident Cole will rebound next year. Beckett went through this, Justin Verlander went through this. 25 year old aces don’t magically turn into pumpkins. I’ll call it right now, Cole’s going to be a stud next year.

  79. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    Well you cant bet on that man. Im not saying get a real expensive stud starter. Just get a good starting pitcher, thats all.

  80. j reed

    November 6, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    I’d say the Brewers…then we need another righty besides Blanton unless they feel Kendrick is ready. Alot of people disliked Myers but I’ll say this…the way he looked in the post game interview was the way I felt about it that loss…despite Hamels failings and the bull pen on crutches, we played down to the Yankees. I couldn’t help but see that in the guy’s face. I mean Howard has been phenominal but 13 K’s…he didn’t look like someone who struck out 13 times. I’m not one usually to assume what player’s are feeling but the swagger we came in with just was there as much. I don’t think we had all the pieces to win game seven, but 7 – 3 against Andy Petite the second time thru…i can’t tip my hat that much to the guy cause other than making some pitches in key spots, our right handed bats did nothing.

  81. The Original Chuck P

    November 6, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    I think that Derosa would come here to be a bench player if we could give him some sort of assurance that he would see regular playing time, which I think we could. He flourished in that role with the Cubs… this is his chance to play for the best team in the NL. Ibanez, Utley and Feliz could all use more time off… Derosa is not much of a drop off in talent and he’s a great clubhouse guy. Further, he can step in and play every day if Feliz doesn’t do what he did this year (DISCLAIMER: I think he will…).

    I’m ok with Cole… but I’m not sure what they’re going to do with him. I keep referring to a comment that Charlie made about not wanting high maintenance players. I just feel like he might be willing to move on…

  82. Dan S

    November 6, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    damon and matsui were bought too…
    and rodriguez and swisher and they bought pettite back
    swisher didn’t do much but matsui damon rodriguez and pettite killed the phils and cc didn’t pitch poorly

  83. Manny

    November 6, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    I’ll save some space and just add that:

    What Tim said @ 12:14pm + What the Original Chuck said @ 11:37pm = pretty much what I think about this post.

  84. Matt Kwasiborski

    November 6, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    I would try to package Victorino and Happ to see if the Blue Jays bite on it for Halladay. They may have to throw in Taylor but look at it this way:
    The Jays also want to move Wells and his monster contract. If they do this, they will need a CF. Happ had a great year but I don’t think he is more than a 4 or 5 starter on this team. For the Jays he could be a #3 or so.

    Halladay is going into his walk year. We picked up Lee’s option and get Halladay cheaper than we would have gotten him in July. You then move Werth to CF and go after a RF or a much needed utility guy.

  85. Manny

    November 6, 2009 at 4:11 pm

    Why would you trade VICTORINO AND HAPP (who’s under team control for years) AND THEN ALSO TAYLOR… for a one-year rental? I don’t care if his name is Halladay or Jesus Christ.

  86. Geoff

    November 6, 2009 at 4:13 pm

    Yeah taht would be a really stupid trade.

  87. j reed

    November 6, 2009 at 4:24 pm

    DeRosa is just what the Dr. ordered esp. if he can play enough positions so he can get the playing time that he would want. Our bench just didn’t get enough playing time. Had it not been for the offense having to take up the slack for the pitching woes early in the season i think the bench would had more playing time and less rust. Also none of the bench player can hit for contact…

  88. j reed

    November 6, 2009 at 4:26 pm

    I’d be happy with juan pierre that pest…that’s the problem we don’t have anyone that can consistently be a pest.

  89. j reed

    November 6, 2009 at 5:02 pm

    Ed R. – Is me or is Dubee over rated. I didn’t have a problem with pedro out there because of his last performances but he was clearly struggling. I can’t believe he showed no signs of this in his bull pen session. The guy can’t read pitchers one bit and never advises Manuel well about his pitchers which we know and accept that Manuel sucks at …i wish we could get duncan or the guy from the twins. I think we’d see a profound difference.

  90. Bret

    November 7, 2009 at 11:22 am

    Dubee is overrated? wow youre an idiot. We just went to back to back world series. I hate all these fair weather fans who werent following this team in the late 90’s and early 00’s……you dont know what its like to have a really bad team. You are all nit-picking. And when Juan Pierre hits a HR let me know.

  91. karen

    November 8, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    I don’t know why but this loss is so much tougher than other times. My fave pro teams and college teams never really get to the top, they are good but not quite good enough. You definately have to admit that the Yankees have a team that no other team in the league could match, they have players that have salaries close to an entire team. It really shows that baseball needs some salary cap to try to even out the teams……beyond that, I am just sad that we lost. Unfortunately, after the game 1 win, i was confident that we would win a second championship

  92. karen

    November 8, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    I think that we need Drabek and Taylor to be in Philly in the 2010 season….we are riding them as the future of the team so they need to go up and make it or not

  93. Mike Schmidt

    November 9, 2009 at 4:18 am

    How can you talk about the 2009 World Series without bringing up the one play that changed the entire series more than anything else?
    Alex Rodriguez and Fox’s camera.
    Before anybody says to forget about this play and move on I will not.
    First of all, saying the Yankees are a better team and that the Yankees would have won the series no matter what means nothing.
    The play was disrespectful to the Phillies and their ballpark.
    How the players played changed a little after the play, but what was alot more noticeable was how the fans and writers started talking about this series.
    This was one of the closest world series in a long time.
    Just look at the Yankees WS since 1996
    1996:Yankees won 4-2 against ATL but got outscored by 8 runs.
    1998:Yankees won 4-0 against SD and outscored SD by 13 runs.
    1999:Yankees won 4-0 against ATL and outscored ATL by 12 runs.
    2000:Yankees won 4-1 against NYM but only outscored NYM by 3 runs.
    2001:Yankees lost 4-3 against ARI and got outscored by 23 runs!!
    2003:Yankees lost 4-2 against FLA but outscored FLA by 4 runs.
    2009:Yankees won 4-2 against PHI and outscored them by 5 runs.

    As you can see this was the closest world series the Yankees were in during the Derek Jeter years. Yes the 2001 WS went to 7 but ARI crushed them when they won and outscored them by 23 runs overall!!
    So this was the closest world series in baseball since 2002 when the Angels and Giants went 7 games.

    However after the A-Rod phony call, the talk changed from how the Phillies are champs and this is the two best teams in baseball, to the Yankees are clearly better and the Phillies are clearly inferior.
    I do not belive this whatsoever. I do not believe the 2009 Yankees are better than the 2009 Phillies. They are two evenly matched teams where a few breaks went one way or the other and a winner was decided. One team was clearly not head and shoulders above the other.

    The question is why did the talk change after the A-Rod call? Answer-Because people wanted to avoid controversy and the fact that something about the play just wasn’t right and wanted to take the fact that the call went the Yankees way to explain why they were better than the Phillies. That is what fans, players and writers always do after a controversal call.

    Face it, the call was controversal and detrimental to the Phillies ballclub. Had A-Rod just hit a home run that went way over the fence it would have been better for the Phillies. However to be up 3-0 in Game 3 as defending World Champs and thinking the play is a double and then see the umps go in for 15 seconds to change the call, it was like MLB and the umps just took the Phillies championship reign away from them, and that was not right. The play made me sick to the point that I did not sleep and was up all the way until the start of Game 4 because I could not believe the call.

    Then after that play it was all about the Yankees franchise and how they are bigger and stronger and much better than the Phillies franchise, all talk that was non-existent before the play. Why? Because people wanted to avoid controversy and side with the call made by the umps, and the call favored the Yankees, so they would then explain why the Yankeers were just “better” than the Phillies.

    The facts of the World Series are this:Phillies had 5 more home runs than the Yankees, got outscored by only 5 runs, and held the Yankees to a .247 batting average. That is 5 points better than the worst batting average ever by a world series champ the 1969 mets hit .242. Now think about this for a second, Jeter got a hit in his last at bat, and the Yankees got 6 late hits in Game 5 to close the gap from 8-2 to 8-6. Without those 7 hits, they would have hit .214 and still won the Series. Imagine that a .214 batting average and WS champ.

    And again the game came down to inches. Damon barely foul tipped a 3-2 count from Lidge in Game 4 that would have sent the game into the bottom of the 9th 4-4. It also would have been the first chance since the A-Rod call where the Phillies could have been back in the series because they would have been tied with just them batting in the 9th.

    The series was a game of inches and close calls, one of the closest in a long time. But nobody talks about that now, all they talk about is the powerhouses of the Yankees on how their franchise is richer and history than the Phillies. All because of the A-Rod call.

    And the last part about the World Series is this. The Yankees needed the greatest player at his position in the history of baseball to close out all 4 games. Mariano Rivera saved all 4 games for the Yankees. They could not done it without him. Yet the writers and fans, talkers and players made this about how much more powerful the Yankees were than the Phillies.

    One guy Mariano, who just happens to be the greatest ever at his position, a couple of close calls and a game of inches. That is the reality. The Yankees also had luck on their side. They hit the camera and got the call. That part is luck, not skill.

  94. Mike Schmidt

    November 9, 2009 at 4:27 am

    The Yankees also got a few cheap runs, on silly bloop hits and balls landing in weird places. To my account the Phillies didn’t get any cheap runs, except for when Howard didn’t touch home plate on his hustle steal second and score play in Game 4. The Phillies also hit the ball hard during the series. Even in the last game, Jimmy just missed going deep that would have made it 7-5, and Victorino showed the heart of this ballclub by going 10 pitches for the final out. The 2009 Philadelphia Phillies were a great ballclub, and they may have been a little better than the 2009 New York Yankees, I personally think they were better than the 2008 Philadelphia Phillies.

  95. Mike Schmidt

    November 9, 2009 at 4:34 am

    Remember, the Phillies outslugged the Yankees in slugging percentage .464 to .399. I personally think these Phillies are better than these Yankees.

  96. Mike Schmidt

    November 9, 2009 at 4:43 am

    Lets have Ryan Howard hit the camera home run, have it ruled a double, and then give the call to the Phillies. Lets see how the Yankees play the rest of that game, and the rest of that series. Lets see how their fans react. Maybe then can we say for a fact that the Yankees are better than the Phillies. Until that happens, I cannot believe that anyone can say the Yankees are a better team than the Phillies. You have to LOSE the call and win the game to be the best, not WIN the call and win the game to be the best. This World Series to me proved nothing. If the Yankees were so much better than the Phillies why didn’t A-Rod just stand at 2nd base and accept it, and why didn’t Joe Girardi just sit in the dugout? I mean, the Yankees are better than the Phillies aren’t they? Either way the Yankees are going to win because they are better, right?
    I do not believe so. A-Rod needed to point at the camera and looked puzzled and Girardi needed to come out of the dugout to protest because they knew if they were going to beat the 2009 Phillies, they needed that call. Otherwise they wouldn’t have argued the call and asked for replay, would they?

  97. Mike Schmidt

    November 9, 2009 at 4:49 am

    If the 2009 Yankees are so much better than the 2009 Phillies then A-Rod would have stayed at 2nd base, and Girardi would have stayed in the dugout. Why? Because they are better, and no matter what the call is the Yankees will win anyway.

    The 2009 Yankees are not better than the 2009 Phillies, and the reactions of A-Rod and Girardi after the controversal call proves that.

  98. Andrew J.

    November 28, 2009 at 10:22 pm

    Ahh, such denial. The camera was over the railing; the ball hit the lens. It was a no-brainer. Ground rules for the stadium before the game said the camera was a movable object, and as such, not part of the permanent structure of the stadium, hence hitting it is not like hitting a wall or a railing.
    You lost in 6; you couldn’t touch the greatest closer of all time pitching two-inning saves with a pulled rib cage muscle, sitting in the dugout with a heating pad against his ribs.

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