Halladay Blockbuster Complete? – Phillies Nation

Halladay Blockbuster Complete?

According to Jim Salisbury of CSNPhilly.com, the Phillies could be involved in a three-team trade revolving around Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee. ESPN.com is reporting that Seattle is the third team in the scenario, which would be the new home for Lee.  Halladay would then be shipped here, with the assumption that prospects would be given to Toronto.

Reports have Halladay here in Philly for a physical, with his agent in town to talk about a possible contract extension.  This is huge news, and although it would look like the Phillies would indeed lose Lee to gain Halladay, would it mean them keeping Happ, and possibly Blanton?

If that’s the case, I have to think the Phillies are even more interested.  They clearly liked Halladay better at the trade deadline a year ago, but “settled” for Lee.  And although Lee became a hero in this town for the stretch-run he gave the team, Halladay has the tools to be just as good, if not better.  I think keeping Happ would be a plus.  He’s under control for several more years and looks to be a solid #3.

UPDATE (3:37 pm): Jon Heyman tweets that Lee was not willing to give Phils a discount.  Todd Zolecki claims this could be very close to being done.

UPDATE (3:55 pm): Heyman now saying deal is done, via SI.com.

UPDATE (Tuesday, 2:23 PM): Looks like the deal is complete. It’s two separate trades. Cliff Lee goes to Seattle. The Phillies get Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies and Juan Ramirez for Lee.  For Halladay, the Phillies trade Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor, and Travis D’Arnaud to Toronto. The Phillies also get $6 million.

According to Jim Salisbury of CSNPhilly.com, the Phillies and Halladay have agreed to an extension. The contract is an average of about $20 million per year, taking Halladay through 2013.

Michael Taylor will likely be traded to Oakland for Brett Wallace, according to ESPN’s Buster Olney.



  1. Jason

    December 14, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    so the phillies would straight up trade Lee for Halladay?

  2. Trent out in CO

    December 14, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    THIS IS HUGE!!!! i dont wanna see lee go, but if we can keep happ and blanton….that changes everything…..LET THA HALLADAY SEASON BEGIN!!!

  3. Section118

    December 14, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    absolutely not….
    Cliff Lee has been everything+ we had hoped from Halladay. He excelled in the playoffs, greater than we could have imagined. So we trade him for someone older, someone with no playoff track record?? NO NO NO NO NO
    I don’t think Halladay will be any easier than Lee to lock up.
    We’re insane.

  4. pissedoffmetsfan

    December 14, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    hey..at least you guys are getting some good good pitcher…ask what the mets are doing..offering minor league contracts to kelvim escobar

  5. Jason

    December 14, 2009 at 3:43 pm

    Why risk it? We alraedy know that Cliff Lee can handle Citizens bank park, what more can you ask for?

  6. Keith

    December 14, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    don’t trade Lee 🙁

  7. Geoff

    December 14, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    Ohhh man, this is like Christmas early. The nervous anticipation…

    Oh baby, the Doctor is coming to town!!!! I just hope they make a good, sound deal and that they dont give up waaaaaay too much like the Flyers did for Lindros…

  8. Evan

    December 14, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    This move only makes sense to me if Lee wants to test free agency and refuses to sign an extension. If RAJ is eager to sign an ace to a multi-year deal, they might be willing to trade Lee in order to go after Halladay, who seems to want to play in Philly.

    Even if this is the case, its worth the hit to give up whatever prospects it takes to get Halladay and keep Lee for the year before letting him go. When Lee becomes a free agent that’s 2 compensatory first round draft picks you get, which will help restock the farm if you have to give up 3-4 prospects with one Type A guy going to Toronto for Halladay. Having Lee, Haladay, and Hamels would almost guarenteed a trip to the WS if they stay healthy.

    Think big Ruben!

  9. Geoff

    December 14, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    This tells me only one thing: that there is NO CHANCE that Cliff Lee will sign an extension with us…

  10. Stuart

    December 14, 2009 at 3:49 pm

    Evan. Thats what I have been saying along. We are geared up to win now. So lets go for it NOW.

  11. Pat Gallen

    December 14, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    From what I have read, Lee wants his fair value, while Halladay wants to win now and take less.

  12. Geoff

    December 14, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    Yeah, its only one first round pick, and one sandwich round pick…its still two quality draft picks though…lets just see what happens, and enjoy the excitement as it unfolds.

  13. Griffin

    December 14, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    I hope the Phils don’t have to trade Cliff Lee AND prospects for Halladay.

    Lee reportedly told the Phils that there would be “no discount” whereas Halladay is willing to take a slight discount to come to the Phils.

  14. Keith

    December 14, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    so Cliff Lee will be on the Yankees in 2011. blah.

  15. Steve-o

    December 14, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    Latest rumor is Lee to Seattle for prospects, Phils flip those prospects to Toronto plus Michael Taylor, and we get Halladay long term.

    In which case, this is perfect. Keep Brown, Keep Happ, Keep Drabek. Keep Kentucky Joe, and get Halladay.

  16. Griffin

    December 14, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    Heyman reporting that it’s a 3 way deal with Lee going to the Mariners.

  17. Don M

    December 14, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    are people really suggesting that Lee is a better fit for this team than Roy Halladay?????

    I will drive Cliff Lee to the airport, if he wants me to

    Roy Halladay is PERFECT for this team

    I think we’ll have to give “something” up for Halladay.. hopefully its just Michael Taylor

  18. Adam

    December 14, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    Love this move if, as most are saying, Lee was going to go FA. We don’t lose anything, and gain a pitcher who’s as good (if not better) than Cliff…plus he’ll have a contract in hand. It’s not a world shattering move, but a plus move at least.

  19. Jesus

    December 14, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    Although I hate the idea of losing Lee, I can see the benefit in flipping the prospects we could get from Lee to get Halladay and then locking up Halladay. Definitely an aggressive move by RAJ. If we can keep our farm pretty much intact and still get Halladay and keep JA and Blanton, it’s pretty impressive.

  20. Jeff

    December 14, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    If Halladay came here and didn’t do great, he would be run out of town, on the other hand if we only gave up Lee and kept Blanton and Happ our rotation would be in much better shape. Either way, we need head case Hamels to show some signs of his old self. Developing a 3rd pitch would be nice too

  21. Griffin

    December 14, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    I’m not sure how I feel about this. Is upgrading from Lee to Halladay worth Michael Taylor? If Lee wasn’t going to take a discount and Halladay is, then maybe it’s worth it, but it’s a steep price to pay.

  22. JD

    December 14, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    Bye Cliff see you pitching for the Stankees soon. Welcome to Philly ROY WHOOOOOO HOOOOOO!!!!

  23. Griffin

    December 14, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    Heyman now on WFAN confirming that Halladay is negotiating with the Phils for an extension. He confirms the Mariners are the 3rd team but says he does not know if Lee is in the deal.

  24. George

    December 14, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    This whole thing just scares me. Until I hear that Halladay will sign a reasonably priced extension, and the Phils won’t have to give up their elite prospects, and won’t have to trade Blanton to open up salary space, I’m not going to be pleased in the least. If this costs the Phils $20 million per year for five years, two top prospects, and the replacement of Blanton with some low cost grade “D” starter, it’s a HUGE mistake. The money alone could cause them to lose out later on their own free agents, such as Werth, Hamels, and Howard. Losing too many prospects would mean they’d have no one left to replace those free agents.

  25. NJ

    December 14, 2009 at 4:20 pm

    Halladay’s debatably the best pitcher on any team, as much as we love Lee Halladay has always been the prize and is worthy of a long-term deal.

    (excluding the Lee part) This is literally the Schilling deal except this time we’re not the team loosing one of the best players in the game.

  26. Jake

    December 14, 2009 at 4:20 pm

    Man, I don’t know how I feel about this. If Ruben knew that Lee was going to demand big money at the end of this season, I suppose the trade/long term signing of Halladay is well worth it. But right now, its just hard to swallow. I don’t want to have to hate Lee when he’s wearing blue pin stripes…

  27. joe

    December 14, 2009 at 4:28 pm


  28. Phan in Atl

    December 14, 2009 at 4:33 pm

    Zolecki just said on ESPN that Toronto might be kicking in some cash to cover Doc’s salary which would help Phils sign bullpen help (Rodney). I love this deal if our big 3 prospects aren’t included, but I doubt if this will be the case.

  29. Paul

    December 14, 2009 at 4:46 pm

    As long as they ink Halladay to a long term deal at a good price, then I think this is a great deal. Kind of a bummer to lose Taylor though…

  30. Ed R.

    December 14, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    Yeah this is all great, and believe me, I will never forget Cliff Lee and what he meant to us last year but I still want to know for sure who we are giving up prospect wise. We can speculate who it is and who it isn’t but I want to know for sure. Any chance we go into next year with a rotation of Hamels, Halladay, Blanton, Happ and ?

    Still need that elusive 5th guy .

  31. Griffin

    December 14, 2009 at 4:49 pm

    I’m bummed to give up Taylor but I would be devastated to give up Dom Brown. Let’s hope it’s Happ, Gose and others. Hey, we can hope, can’t we?!!?

  32. Evan

    December 14, 2009 at 4:52 pm


    How do you move less than 100% of Lee? I think you meant its not certain who is being moved.

    I can’t see this trade happening if either Lee or Blanton aren’t the ones going to Seattle. Want to know nowwwwwwww

  33. Manny

    December 14, 2009 at 4:52 pm


    I guess it all depends on who are we giving up and what type of extension ($$ and years) we can get Halladay to sing….


  34. joedad

    December 14, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    I think everyone owes an apology to Ken Rosenthal, LOL.

    When all is said and done, the Phils trade Carrasco, Marson, Donald, Knapp and Taylor for 4 years of Halladay and 1/2 year of Lee. Not too shabby.

  35. Jeff Dowder

    December 14, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    Cliff Lee to Seattle, Michael Taylor to Toronto, and Halladay comes to Philly (with extension in place). Great trade.

  36. Griffin

    December 14, 2009 at 5:12 pm

    MLBTR is saying that Taylor is in the deal along with others. I hope all of those “others” are coming from the Mariners.

  37. Griffin

    December 14, 2009 at 5:15 pm

    Jeff Dowder, the Phils traded for half a year of Lee and 1 year of Halladay. Those extra years the Phils have to pay free agent prices for.

  38. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    Hey, this site is alive again!

  39. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    I agree, if this deal with Seattle goes through, then the Mariners have pulled a heist:


  40. william

    December 15, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    Good trade all around this team is basiclly set for the next three years Taylor would have nowhere to play and I am not as in love with Drabeck as most people are still concerned about the TJ surgery. The prospects we got from the Mariners along with what we have on the farm in addition to whatever draft picks we have for the next 2-3 years should leave us with a decent system in 3 years just about the time they will be needed.

  41. NateB

    December 15, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    Yeah I liked Lee a lot too. He’s a true ace and a great guy too, will be missed in Philly. It all comes down to one year of Lee vs. four or five years of Halladay. Can you imagine 2011-2014 without either of them? I keep hearing that Halladay is everything that is advertised and more. I believe that having Roy here will help Cole to become stronger and to feel like the lefty ace of the staff. GREAT MOVE!!!!


    December 15, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    Halladay will be a beast in the National League. He is the BEST pitcher in baseball and will be a stud like a Steve Carlton. He will put up eye-popping numbers and have a street named after him when he goes into the Hall of Fame.

  43. NJ

    December 15, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    The thing that’s being overlooked here is A) We get Halladay who’s better and more consistent than Lee B) We’ve re-signed Halladay for what looks to be much less than Lee will sign for in free agency and C) as much as it hurts to loose Drabek who’s a guy we’ve grown to love the talent of, Aumont is considered to be as good if not better a pitching prospect.

    It’s easy to think Seattle are winners here but Felix is their priority hitting free agency a year later and Lee is supposedly asking for Sabathia money so he’s gone next September.

    A rotation of Halladay-Lee-Hamels was never going to happen otherwise it’s what we’d be seeing and oddly Ken Rostenthal was the one who said it would have cost too much in money and prospects.

    Look at this deal as Halladay/Aumont instead of Lee walking in ’10/Drabek

  44. Stuart

    December 15, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    I dont really like this. Why are we getting rid of our prospects? what happened to the idea of using the mariners prospects. If this is all it took why didnt wejust give them the prospects this summer and had him for even longer. Just seems stupid to me.

  45. shag beta sigma delta

    December 15, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    I like the trade, except I do not get why we just did not send Drabek, D’Arnold(sp) and Taylor to Toronto for Halladay. I first heard the pitcher in the deal was going to be the guy we got from Seattle. I still like Doc for 3-4 years over Lee for one. Now Hamels just has to show up, and this will be a great rotation,

  46. bob

    December 15, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    In Amaro I trust!

  47. Mikey Mike

    December 15, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    From a man who KNOWS prospects…


    He doesn’t seemed too thrilled. On the minor league level, this trade makes no sense. On the big club, this trade makes all sorts of sense. What would you rather have, Lee for one more year? OR Halladay for 4 years?
    My vote: Doc

  48. NJ

    December 15, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    ^one thing to add- Baseball law says you don’t stay on top for long (unless the teams in your division are bad/barely better than just OK). I’d rather have Roy Halladay keeping the team at least near the top than any other pitcher in the game right now, I don’t get the feeling Lee was the guy who would hold the team up as much if and when things aren’t going so bad.

    Look at this as karma for the Schilling and Rolen deals.

  49. Mike W

    December 15, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    Horrible deal. If you want to know why just look at Olney’s column from this morning. The phils had numerous directions to go and they chose the worst one.

    Granted, we will continue to be great for another 3 years or so, but after that we wont have any nucleus to depend on (like Drabek and Taylor). We should’ve just gambled that we could’ve signed Lee long term (all indications are that he wanted to) and kept the future alive along w/ the present. We got a small upgrade for the next 3 years, and a ridiculously big downgrade for the years that follow.

  50. shag beta sigma delta

    December 15, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    Not knowing much about this kid from Seattle, and assuming not many people on here know much about him either. If he is equal or better prospect then Drabek, than I am fine with it. But like stated before, why move Cliff if we are giving up our own prospects for Doc, was it purely money?

  51. NJ

    December 15, 2009 at 2:57 pm

    Mike W- Lee’s agent said he would be testing free agency with no discount offered and has be rumored to be eying a Sabathia deal which would be at the very least a Zito one.

    Also the Phils were never going to be able to get both Taylor and Brown up to the big leagues and Brown is considered the Gem. The prospects were getting from Seattle mean the drop off in the farm is palatable because the Phils farm is still very deep with those new guys.

  52. shag beta sigma delta

    December 15, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    Mike you can not say we downgraded the minors if the two guys we got from Seattle are as good as Drabek and Taylor. I admit I do not know.

  53. I dont like dipsy

    December 15, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    My only problem is why didnt Jr. make the deal last year with Drabek. It would of cost us 3 prosepects. Now its up to six because he waited. I understand Lee had to go. I also wasnt a huge Lee fan. Yes he pitched great in the postseason but got lit up in his final six games with us in the regular season. Im very happy we got Halladay. Great player. Drabek might never become anything. I am now hearing Victorino could be traded for Prospect. Thats a no no..He is the heart.

  54. Brooks

    December 15, 2009 at 3:01 pm

    Halladay has been in top 5 consideration for the CY award in the AL 5 times in his career. He has played on a very average team in a very tough division and can throw some heat. A righty to boot.
    I still dont know the terms on who else may be gone (did Blanton or Happ go?) but now we have one of the top 3 pitchers in baseball today for 3 years. If we still have Happ, Hamels and Blanton I am a happy guy..
    Lee wanted a couple of million more instead of a return trip to the WS?
    Halladay will help us to forget our pain quickly…
    Great Move RJA!!

  55. william

    December 15, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    The team had payroll limits and you can’t have a log jam of MLB ready to come up and nowhere to play them who do you sit ? Drabeck is and will always be a question mark with that TJ surgery and no way you can argue he is worth 4 years of Halladay. Again this team core is set for 3 years the prospects from Seattle and future draft pick along with current talent in the farm should see the phils are ok in 3-4 years when they are needed.

  56. Andrew

    December 15, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    How can people be so wrapped in prospects I am sure they have never seen play? Howard “the moron” Eskin them tells them?
    Halladay is the best pitcher in the majors. The phils havent had that since Carlton. This trade had to be made. No brainer. Really cant question it. Id have liked to have kept both pitchers but Lee wants a Sabathia deal. Sabathia isnt worth the sabathia deal and neither is lee. He was great in the playoffs. If Hamels didnt suck we would have wona world series. Plus we need a righty not a lefty. Love the deal.

  57. griffin

    December 15, 2009 at 3:06 pm

    This trade looks foolish. The Phils improve slightly this season and get to pay Halladay 20 mil a year while trading away 3 of their top 4 prospects and receiving vastly inferior prospects.

    The Phils traded Lee because they couldn’t afford his $9 mil salary. That money could have been saved had Amaro not inexplicably given Jamie Moyer a second year or strangely re-signed Durbin for $2 mil or misread the market and overpaid for Ibanez last offseason.

    Now the Phils minor league system is drained (outside of Dom Brown). They received 2 pitchers who will likely become relievers and a speedy OF with no power.

    If money is so tight for the Phillies that they needed to dump Cliff Lee, how are they going to re-sign Werth after 2010?

    Also, the Phils 3B problem could have been solved by trading Michael Taylor straight up to Oakland for Brett Wallace (which the Jays just did).

    Overall, this stinks.

  58. Joey B baby

    December 15, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    So here’s basically the trade (which I think sux btw):

    Phils get: 1/2yr of Lee, 1yr of Halladay + extension, $6M, Aumont, Gillies, Ramirez, and Francisco.

    Phils give up: Drabek, Taylor, Marson, D’Arnaud, Carrasco, Knapp, Donald.

    In my opinion it is a horrible deal, we couldve still had Marson Knapp and Donald at least if we made the deal this summer.

  59. william

    December 15, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    Hindsight is 20/20 RJ has done a good job so far although I agree on the moyer deal still do not understand that one. The rumor that Victorino being Traded would not break my heart Worth can play center and Francisco could Play right and Bat 7th with Placido hitting in the 2 hole. The main Question is still the backend of the bullpen. Lidige can not be counted on and Romero is still in question. use Vic to pick up help in the pen

  60. John

    December 15, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    Terrible trade by Ruben….IF he was going to trade Lee he could have done much better if he actually had some patience for once in his life. We have all winter to trade Lee for the best deal we can find. That said…we should have kept Lee and given Blanton away for nothing. Blanton and Lee are both gone anyway, I’d rather have Lee and his draft picks.

  61. NJ

    December 15, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    Aumont and Ramirez to add to Kendrick, Bastardo, Savery, Flande, Naylor, Carpenter, Matheison and several other reliever and starting prospects capable of making the majors at the very least.

    I’m not going to run down the whole list of positional prospects but we lose our top pitching and no.2 position prospect but the guys we get slot right in around the top and keep an eye on the guys in GCL and low A we’ve signed in the last few months.

    This farm system is far from drained and the best of teams have only three or 4 legitimate top prospects and we saw what happens with Carrasco if you leave someone in the farm with nowhere to go when his values at its highest…

  62. Jeff

    December 15, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    werth is not going to take 100 million. they can trade werth.

  63. william

    December 15, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    Exactly NJ Says with the team set for 3 years setting the farm system back 2-3 years was not a totally bad idea

  64. Jeff

    December 15, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    I think Ruben is a little smarter then you John. Now go back to stocking up the walmart shelves..

  65. griffin

    December 15, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    After trading away 7 prospects for half a year of Lee and then Halladay, this farm system is most definitely drained (outside of Dom Brown). Even counting the 2 relievers and the speedy no pop OF they received from Seattle, 6 of the Phils new top 10 prospects are from last June’s draft- a draft in which the Phillies didn’t even have a first round pick.
    At least they’ll get a sandwich pick for losing Park this season-oh wait, nevermind.

  66. John

    December 15, 2009 at 3:22 pm

    I’m pretty sure that almost every baseball analyst agrees with me…..so feel free to going back to being unemployed Jeff.

  67. Chuck

    December 15, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    Losing Taylor AND Drabek hurts a little….it would have been fun seeing what Drabek could have done here. BUT…….R O Y H A L L A D A Y……

    AND…..we didn’t have to lose Blanton and Happ.

    Overall….this offseason has been an improvement for the Phils…as far as the MAJOR LEAGUE roster is concerned..

    –Halladay > Lee

    –Polanco > Feliz

    –Gload > Stairs

    –Castro > Bruntlett

    –Schneider > Bako

    Now….we just need some bullpen fortification…..Fernando Rodney???

  68. George

    December 15, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    This deal sucks. We get almost nothing from Seattle; Aumont has already has elbow problems, the other two are so far down in the system they’ll be useless for years. And that extension! The Phils will supoosedly get $6 million from Toronto to cover Halladay’s $15.75 million pay in 15.75 2010, but no money will be paid in 2011 when he’ll be making $20 million. Unless Amaro knows where all THOSE millions are coming from, someone else will have to be shipped out next year to meet payroll, and that someone will have to be big, like Werth, Victorino (who might not be big enough), or Blanton. Maybe even two players will have to go. This coming year is the only year of benefit, and really, the team isn’t all that much better than in 2009.

    I thought Amaro had some sense, but now I think he’s so obsessed with Halladay, he’d murder his own grandmother to get him. I hope management cans him for this franchise wrecking blunder.

    See you all in fourth place in 2011.

  69. Mike D.

    December 15, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    My God, Halladay. As much as I love it, I hate losing Michael Taylor. Do we have any good right-handed power left in the farm system? We’re lefty-heavy as it is, folks. We’d better hope Ruben can sign Werth after this year. Perhaps, though, this is a sign that they’re locking up Werth soon. Looks like Domonic Brown replaces Ibanez in a few years.

    Moyer/Kendrick/Martinez/random guy/who cares?

  70. Brooks

    December 15, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    There will be arguments on both sides but the reality is, we will be playing in the WS for the 3rd year in a row. First time that has been done in the NL since 1944.

  71. Jeff

    December 15, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    Yea look at Ruben. Plonaco, Ibanez, Lee, now Halladay. Made a great deal. Lee did not pitch that great in the last five games he started outside of the postseason. Halladay is a much better pitcher and he is now locked.

  72. John

    December 15, 2009 at 3:32 pm

    Halladay could have been locked without trading Lee though….that is the point. The Halladay trade was painful but understandable, I’d rather have Doc than unsure things in Taylor and Drabek. But Lee for this package is retarded.

  73. Chuck

    December 15, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    Ruben’s doing a GREAT job……I just hope losing Drabek doesn’t come back to bite him in the a$$…

    Otherwise, this deal is ok….and like I said….we DON’T lose Happ and Blanton..

  74. ryan

    December 15, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    Lee for prospects from Seattle? I just don’t get that part of the deal. I love halladay, I think he’s the best pitcher in baseball and better than Lee, but I don’t get why you can’t keep Cliff Lee. Lee is only making 9 million next year, we could have cleared salary somewhere else. I’d rather have traded Victorino or someone else somehow. Or Blanton. You can’t tell me nobody would have taken Blanton’s contract for a Salary dump type move for little in return.

  75. griffin

    December 15, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    Last week, the Phils had an ace at the top of their rotation and the #4 rated farm system in all of baseball.

    Now the Phils have an ace at the top of their rotation and a bone dry farm system (outside of Dom Brown).

    So, how exactly is this a good trade?

  76. John

    December 15, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    Good point Griffin, the only way this would have been a good trade (this year) is to have kept Lee.

  77. Jeff of Nova

    December 15, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    I like Halladay, but I am really sad about not having Drabek! He is something special and really has a bright future.

    I think when this is all said and done we may be saying how horrible this trade is.

    I know very little about the prospects that we are getting in return, but if they compare the one to Drabek then why not send him and not Drabek?

    So many questions not really happy overall with this

  78. bfo_33

    December 15, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    The easy thing to do would have been to stick with Lee and worry about 2011 after next season. Who knows how it will turn out, but I applaud Ruben for making a bold move which has potential for short and long term. While it is important to develop prospects, you never really know how they’ll turn out ( I remember when Tyler Green was the 2nd coming of Steve Carlton). Doc is a known quantity, and wants to be here – taking a discount to do it.
    I would have liked to see an infield prospect vs outfield prospect, though I don’t know if Sea has any talent there either. I think Taylor is major league ready, potential to be a Bernie Williams type player (without the swtich hitting), so I am sorry to see him go, but got equivalent potential in return. This move makes Happ a better pitcher – now he’ll be starting after Blanton instead of Hamels – much different style. It also helps the bullpen – they’ll be rested every 5th day.
    Lee was great for us, and I don’t blame him for trying to break the bank. Appreciate his honesty. Good luck to him.

  79. Jeff of Nova

    December 15, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    Yeah the Lee for prospects baffles me, if we kept him we almost definitley would be a lock for WS again, and if we can’t resign him he walks and we get 2 picks in return.

    So we are getting 3 prspects in return, they better be good, the word is that they are a lot of Iffy prospects coming to Philly


    December 15, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    This trade is brilliant. With those idiots in Toronto also sending us 6 million, now we can add another piece to our bullpen. Love it, love it. Roy F’n Halladay. Briiiiiiing It. Hey, I also bet Roy can pitch 3 games in the World Series, everyone knows C Lee couldn’t.

  81. Brooks

    December 15, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    And the Phils will be in the WS again, maybe for 2 more years.
    We’ll see. Time to shore up the BP

  82. John

    December 15, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    Uh..that 6 mil is paying the difference in Doc’s salary..no extra cash for us to get a bullpen piece

  83. NEPA

    December 15, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    Its interesting that both Lee AND his agent DENY that they spoke to Phils seriously about 1)any extension or 2) definitely waiting for free agency.Where did the info come from?Lee said he was refering to the Indians back when he made that comment about wanting free agency.
    So did we jump the gun in getting Halladay?
    Or is Amaro smart in not taking any chances by taking Lee out of the equasion?
    I’ll go with Ruben,he locked in an ace for 4 years.

  84. John

    December 15, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    So now that we have Halladay..and say we make it to the WS…and have Doc win Game 1 and 4…who exactly is pitching 2, 3, 5, 6 that is going to beat the Yankees…yeah exactly the problem we had this year.


    December 15, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    Uh…John, without the 6mil, we wouldn’t be able to add that bullpen piece, now we will. 🙂

  86. John

    December 15, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    Todd..what are you talking about…the 6 mill is to offset the difference in Halladay and Lee’s salary..which leaves us at exactly where we are now…how does that help us with the bullpen? We have the same amount as we did before the trade.

  87. John

    December 15, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    Unless you were thinking if we had to pay the whole 15.75 of Doc’s salary…god that would have been awful…a marginal improvement and no bullpen…the thought makes me cringe.

  88. GWFightinsFan

    December 15, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    essentially, when it comes down to it, the phillies will have traded carrasco, knapp, marson, donald, drabek, taylor and d’arnaud for Halladay, Francisco and some scrub prospects from the Mariners who probably won’t amount to a hill of beans for them…they could have gotten just Halladay for a lot less than that last summer….all in the name of saving money. the phils only got marginally better now, sacraficed a lot of future potential and i guarantee won’t be spending any significant amount of money they saved to go out and solidify their bullpen, bad move!

  89. Chuck

    December 15, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    we STILL would have had to spend for bullpen help…..6 million or no 6 million….it’s just EASIER now…


    December 15, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    Its all about where they want the final payroll number to be. Ruben will add another arm that we may not have gotten without that 6mill in the deal. Either way, it’s another NL title at worst.

  91. Keith

    December 15, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    Phillies-Mariners World Series

  92. NJ

    December 15, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    Amazing how much hate there is for this trade, one month is trade Drabek now it’s why did we trade Drabek. A few months ago it was oh I love that we got Lee but I wish we’d got Halladay, now it’s we got Halladay but I’m not happy… The farm is not bone dry after this trade, there’s a couple less elite prospects a couple of elite prospects left and an absolute plethora of both pitching and positional prospects capable of making the majors or becoming viable trade bate.

    Did I like losing Lee no? Do I understand is was financially impossible and impractical to keep him, Yes. Do I like losing Drabek and Taylor, hell no! I love those kids but do I understand the prospects acquired from Seattle including their two top pitching prospects (on a team known to find young pitching pretty decently) will keep the farm not too far from where it was, Yes

    Just amazing how much the consensus opinion swings on this board… Think of the legacy this team would have if most Phils fans were as narrow-minded as Red Sox fans and got on board instead of finding the bad in everything thats genuinely good…

    (ps. to those who wonder why we didn’t deal Drabek/Taylor to the Jays in July, it’s because Riccardi wanted more to the point it would have really hurt the farm.)

  93. Andrew

    December 15, 2009 at 3:59 pm

    Nowhere else do fans cry so much about getting the best pitcher in baseball. Who wants to be here and is taking below market value to be here. Compare the 3 players given up for lee with the 3 players recieved. Drabek isnt in that discussion. also factor in the pkay of lee last year when yuo are calculating that. We just got the best best pitcher in the majors. We are once again favored to make the series. If Cole Chambles is focised and doesnt suck this year we may be favored to win it. Love the deal. wish we kept lee but oh well.

  94. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    This “three-way trade” was actually two separate two-team trades. Therefore, the purported Lee deal was obviously put together to clear salary room, which is quite baffling to me if the entire point of these deals was to take us to the promised land this year as well as beyond. Not being able to get rid of Blanton and his $7M, RA chose to shed Lee and his $9M, at a net $2M savings.

    Penny-wise but pound-foolish if seen purely from a financial perspective, but even if trading Lee garnered us a handful of prospects to “replenish” our farm system, I don’t see the benefits. The analysts in Seattle are calling this a “heist” perpetrated by Zduriencik. A bunch of 2nd-tier prospects is what we’re getting – none of them are even in the BA top 50 prospects list. We lost two top 50 prospects in Drabek and Taylor. If this deal goes through, then Zduriencik pulled a fast one on us. Now we know how Cleveland fans felt last year.

    More importantly, gaining Halladay but losing Lee in the process still makes us too underpowered for a match-up with a team of the Yankees caliber.

  95. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 4:06 pm

    …not to mention that we are actually trading away two compensatory draft picks along with Lee.

  96. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    Do we believe Lee’s agent?

    Agent Darek Braunecker disputed the characterization of the talks, telling ESPN.com that he had three brief discussions with the Phillies “for a total of about an hour.” Braunecker said length of contract and total dollars were discussed, but that he and Lee did not stake out a position or give the team an indication that Lee was unwilling to sign a long-term deal.

    “At no point did we make any sort of financial demands,” Braunecker said. “The negotiations were in the very preliminary stages. As recently as [Monday], both sides would have characterized the discussions as encouraging. Unfortunately, something transpired that we had no control over that dictated this move.

    “What’s being portrayed in the media is completely inaccurate — that we presented something or the club thought our position was going to preclude them from being able to do a deal. We didn’t get far enough down the road in negotiations to really [explore] the details.”

  97. Jason

    December 15, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL If anyone buys the fact that the phillies are trying to “win now” this is a down the line deal, The phillies could have kept Cliff Lee if they wanted.

    This si two seperate trades in reality what is happening we are trading Kyle Drabek, Taylor, and Travis D’Arnaud for Roy Halladay….. if we wanted to “Win now” we could have kept Cliff lee and take the 2 compensatory picks next year when we lose him but we didn’t.

    This is 100% a business move.

  98. Jeff

    December 15, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    Lee had to be traded to save that 15 million he was owed. Guys let Ruben do his job. We are the best team in the NL. We now have the greatest pitcher in baseball. We have a very solid third baseman. Just go get your Halladay jerseys and sit back. This is a gem. Enjoy it. Lee was not going to stick around. The Phillies do there homework. These prospects they are getting back were liked very much. Lets get ready for the season.

  99. Steve-o

    December 15, 2009 at 4:24 pm

    I love having Halladay, but I refuse to believe we couldn’t find a suitor for Joe Blanton, in order to keep Lee for the year. The 2 picks from his departure after the season would have been enough compensation…I am OK with the Toronto part of this trade, but not happy with the Seattle portion. It just doesn’t make sense.

  100. JeffS

    December 15, 2009 at 4:26 pm

    If I sleep with one girl on Thursday, and another on Friday, did I have a threesome? No? Then this is not a three way trade.

    The Halladay trade just hurts because I love watching Drabek, and because Taylor, in addition to being the closest to able to replenish the OF if we have to lose Shane or JWerth due to $$ restraints, is just one of the nicest people and easy to root for. That trade hurts, but is understandable.

    Trading Lee’s one-year and very cheap $$ (given the way this market is shaping up – see Wolf, etc.) for what amounts to already half lame 2 year-old racehorses who can’t break their maidens….that is just insane. You can tell me all you want that it’s only a one-year rental, but the difference between this one and many others is that this one is a drastically under-market salary for that year, given what much lesser pitchers are getting this off season, and therefore should have value.

    I could get over losing two of my favorites by acknowledging it’s several years of Halladay and that I’m biased in favor of minor league players I’ve seen a lot. But combined with the bad bad bad trade on the other side, it’s a lot harder.

  101. Philly Texan

    December 15, 2009 at 4:27 pm

    The reason they had to trade Lee and not Blanton is not because of money. It’s because of prospects. Blanton wasn’t going to bring anything in return — not if the other team is eating a $7 million contract.

    But let’s look at that scenario:
    We trade Blanton for a bag of bats, but now we have Halladay, Lee and Hamels….for JUST ONE YEAR.

    And a great year it would be….probably. But you’re banking everything on one year. And that’s so riskly, because baseball is a fickle game, my friends. What if Ryan Howard blows out his knee? Or JRoll? Or Halladay or Hamels gets hurt? Or some other injury or slump or fluke that prevents the Phils from reaching the World Series again.

    Well then it gets ugly because Lee walks in FA (no way to afford him with Halladay on the payroll.) And sure we get draft picks for Lee’s departure, but meanwhile the farm system is bare of pitching prospects. We have nothing for several years. So in 2011, our rotation is Halladay, Hamels, Happ and, um, Kendrick, and….who? We got no one.

    By trading Lee, we’re not banking on just one year. The team is set up for World Series runs the next two years at least and probably three.

    In the next 2-3 years, our rotation could still be Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Happ, and Kendrick or maybe Aumont (I know he’s had arm problems, but the kids is still a ridiculous talent.

    Yeah, i’m kind of lukewarm on the trade too. We gave up a lot.

    But I do see the logic here. Trading Blanton gives us one year window. Trading Lee gives us 2-3 years and keeps the farm system in better shape.

    This trade is all about keeping an ace in town for a 2-3 year run at another title. Simple as that.

  102. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 4:30 pm

    Jeff – get your facts straight first. Lee is owed $9M, not $15M. And secondly, the Settle prospects are no where near the caliber of what we lost in the Halladay deal. (see http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/1778/mariners-pulling-off-a-heist)

    I guess your content to have a repeat of the ’09 season, huh?

  103. Gavin

    December 15, 2009 at 4:36 pm

    If it weren’t for Moyers contract we’d have room for both guys financially.

    I cant figure out how I feel about this trade. I’m surprised that the Phils are giving up Drabek and disappointed about that. The idea is to construct this organization to win now and to sustain winning. This trade satisfies the first, but not the latter. In 2013, it will be Halladay and Utely and no one else.

    It sounds stupid to be commenting about 2013, but its the truth……

    FYI, I agree with the posts that right or wrong RAJ has balls and is willing to take chances that we’ve almost never seen before out of this organization. I may not agree with this deal, but i’m impressed with RAJ’s ability to make a deal happen.

  104. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 4:36 pm

    JeffS and Philly Texan, arguments well made. Those are also the reasons why i’m not sold on these two trades.

    Except I don’t see going all in for the 2010 season by keeping Lee being all that risky from a marginal perspective, given the revelation that the Seattle prospects are not top-tier, the fact that prospects themselves are full of risk and the certainty that we’d be getting 2 compensatory draft picks for losing Lee to FA.

  105. griffin

    December 15, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    The Mariners already moved Aumont to the bullpen. His stock has declined and he is nowhere near the pitcher Drabek is.

    This trade didn’t “replenish” the farm system. The 2 best prospects in the deal were Drabek and Taylor.
    This was a salary dump.

    Amaro made a good move by trading for Lee last summer and ruined it by overpaying for Halladay and selling low on Lee.

  106. JeffS

    December 15, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    “The Mariners already moved Aumont to the bullpen. His stock has declined and he is nowhere near the pitcher Drabek is.”

    Interesting point in that this should have been worth even less to us, since our minor league system is overstuffed with pitchers who similarly project as relievers.

    Without Drabek, I guess we are hoping May (pitcher, not the month) comes along fast.

  107. Jeff

    December 15, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    Excuse me SDO….I think Ruben is a little smarter when it comes to this. Why we did what we did…

    Lets see Lee gave up 6 to Atlanta- Lost, 3 homers in that game
    Lee gave up 6 to Houston- Lost
    Leff gave up 7 to Brewers- Lost. gave up 2 homers
    Lee gave up 4 to Houston, Lost
    He gave up 4 to Washington in a win.

    Yes he looked good against the mets, rockies, cubs, dbacks and did well in the postseason. So did hamels. Lee did not last in any of those games past the 5th inning. If not for the postseason nobody would be saying anything. Halladay will not get hit around like that.

  108. Andrew

    December 15, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    Why would the lees prospects be equal ro the halladay prospects? We get halladay for 4 years. We got a good half season from lee. Compare the 3 prospects given up for lee to the 3 we got for him plus the half season we got from lee. Dranek isnt involved with lee.

  109. Geoff

    December 15, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    You guys all think you could have given up like nothing for Halladay. Thats what it took to get 4 years at least of Halladay. Im fine with that because it is for FOUR YEARS.

    Lee clearly was not going to re-sign here. Plain and simple, they got a decent return, Morrow would have helped, a lot, but oh well.

    Also. They were hovering at or near having about 10M left to spend before this trade….now…

    Lee – 8-9M. Out. Halladay 16M in. Moving Lees salary closer to 9 they are 7M short now. 6M cash they get in the deal means theyre roughle a Mil short….sooooooo. they still have around 9-10 Million or so, maybe a bit more because I cannot remember the cost of the otehr signings right now. So, at least they have PLENTY OF MONEY to add a bullpen piece or two. Maybe a good reliever and a cheap starter.

    this is FINE guys. as long as he stays healthy and as durable as he has been, i have NO PROBLEM with this trade really..

  110. NJ

    December 15, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    How many Phillies fans does it take to change a lightbulb?

    100- 1 to switch the lightbuld, 4 who’ll be glad the guy changed the lightbulb and then the other 95 standing outside the window bitching and griping about the lightbulb no matter what lightbulb it is!

  111. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    I’m despising the Seattle trade more and more by the hour. There’s got to be a bettor suitor out there. Weren’t the Angel’s shopping for an ace?

  112. Bob in Bucks

    December 15, 2009 at 4:45 pm

    I see that many of the commenters are either very young, don’t understand the concept of a budget or have never negotiated a deal. Sure I would love to keep Lee and get Halladay but the Phils have determined they don’t have the cash to do that. Deal with it.
    Last year many were screaming for Halladay and to give Happ and Drabek and Brown, et al. Amaro is now getting Halladay AND $6 million for Drabek/Taylor and a catching prospect we don’t need . Sorry guys this is a business, if you can get $6 million and probably the best right hander in baseball you have to give up something.
    Lee is moved now because Phils don’t have the money for two, Halladay is better than Lee, Halladay is RH vs LH, and Phils get prospects instead of just picks.
    Amaro has upgraded at a cost of $750,000. It is a masterful move!

  113. Geoff

    December 15, 2009 at 4:46 pm

    The angels had a light offer for Halladay though, meaning their offer for Lee would have been lighter…

  114. Andrew

    December 15, 2009 at 4:47 pm

    Oh the angels had better prospects to offer? youve seen them? LOL I love the fans. Hoe mny of yuo have seen drabek pitch? I know i havent. Hard for me to cry abotu players ive never seen. LOL but some of you are great at it. I am guessing the moron Eskin is against this. Luckily I dont have to listen to that negative crap.

  115. Matt M

    December 15, 2009 at 4:47 pm

    Jeff-Don’t forget he didn’t have his best stuff and was below average against the Yankees in Game 5. Not being overly critical of Lee but he wasn’t as bullet proof as people make him out to be. Halladay is the better pitcher going forward and the age argument doesn’t hold much weight either considering it’s only a 16 month difference.

  116. Jeff

    December 15, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    My friend is a mets fan and says stop bitching. YOU HAVE THE GREATEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL…Get your jerseys now …..

  117. badlukk13

    December 15, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    They should’ve held on to Lee for next season. Halladay-Hamels-Lee-Happ would’ve been unbeatable! The Phils dealt too many good prospects for Lee, and should’ve used him to at least get another championship then let him go to free-agency, as opposed to getting prospects of limited potential for Lee and no guarantee of a championship.

    Cliffs Notes: Love the Halladay move, hate the Lee trade.

  118. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    Okay, so postseason performance counts for nothing? Did you forget that he was the only pitcher who recorded a win against the American League opponent in the playoffs? Excuse me, but for the Phillies, at this point in their franchise, anything less than winning the big dance is a failure. The window of opportunity is small, the team nucleus will be no more after 2012.

    Unless, of course, you subscribe to the Jeff Lurie / Joe Banner school of thought.

  119. Jeff

    December 15, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    excuse me but hamels gave a better then lee performance in the post season a year before and most philly fans want to get rid of him. give up on a 25 year old lefty.

  120. Matt M

    December 15, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    badlukk13-What they got for Lee is essentially what they gave up. Trust me they weren’t going to get any better prospects for Lee because unlike Halladay he didn’t want an extension and will be a FA after 2010 so teams would have to be desperate to give the Phils top end talent back. And as for why they traded him in the first place-to get Halladay and bullpen help someone had to go and Lee was the only worth while commodity.

  121. Matt M

    December 15, 2009 at 4:54 pm

    SDO-what magical crystal ball do you have saying that a better pitcher(Halladay) couldn’t do what Lee did? Halladay will make them better in the post season and regular season.

  122. Andrew

    December 15, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    2 straight world series. Including winning one.
    I think I will trust the front office. Game 7 of the WS you want Halladay on the mound not lee. Lee is a top 15 pitcher. Doc is a top 1.

  123. Jeff

    December 15, 2009 at 4:57 pm

    Put lee on the blue jays against the yankees and the redsox. no run support.

  124. griffin

    December 15, 2009 at 4:58 pm

    The Jays did not trade four years of Halladay. They traded ONE year of Halladay and then the Phillies had to sign him to an extension for $20 mil a year.

    The Phils traded one year of Lee and 3 of their top 4 prospects for one year of Halladay and the right to pay Halladay 90% of what he would have received in the open market.

  125. griffin

    December 15, 2009 at 4:59 pm

    Also, for 2010, Lee making $9 mil is better value than Halladay making $15.75 mil and yet Amaro traded Lee away for next to nothing while giving up a ton for Halladay.

  126. JeffS

    December 15, 2009 at 5:00 pm

    “and Phils get prospects instead of just picks.”

    Like a 20 year old who already has a degenerative hip and admits it bothers him with every pitch. I’m overstating the argument for clarity – but give me a pick instead.

    I wish Bob was right and I am young and/or unable to budget, but that is not the case, and has nothing to do with the argument being made. First, it’s not a matter of not being able to afford CLIFF LEE, it’s a matter of having to dump salary somewhere, anywhere, from the team. There is no saying that if your rent goes up that you have to cut your beer (@ CBP prices, lol) budget. You could cut something else, like the ice cream budget. Not to say there are or are not better places to dump salary, but your argument that the Phils could not afford both Lee and Halladay is based on a false premise. They cannot afford Lee, Halladay, and everything else they have and are obligated to out there.

    Second, there is no law stating that the Lee trade had to be forced TODAY in order to dump the salary.

    Third, and I wish I had more time to get into/argue this, but it’s almost time to hit the road, I would rather have ONE promising prospect who has proven himself for a few games in AA than two who are in A+. It’s a rough jump for a lot of kids. I don’t expect to get a Drabek and Brown for one year of Lee, but an upgrade from what we got should have been achievable.

  127. Don M

    December 15, 2009 at 5:01 pm

    BY the time Kyle Drabek was ready to be a leader on this team… he would be leading a Phillies roster with probably only Utley, and Ruiz remaining from what we have now

    Phillies are taking a shot the title, because they know that their GLORY DAYS aren’t going to last forever.. they just extended or chances past 2010 only … and gave us the great chance in 2011, 2012 also

    Cliff Lee was definitely testing the Free Agent market in the offseason next year.. how do people still not understand that?? That news broke about a month ago, and people just refused to see that he wants to get his $100 M payday … can’t blame him for that, and can’t blame the Phillies for letting him go

    Are the prospects we got from Seattle as good as the prospects we gave to Toronto? maybe, maybe not … but we now have Halladay coming.. and staying for multiple years (something we couldn’t have done with Lee)

    The thing that gets me is the Taylor for Brett Wallace deal… if Michael Taylor could net a legit 3b prospect.. why didn’t the Phillies look into this type of deal before? I guess they knew that Taylor was going in the eventual Halladay trade.. but shocking to me that Taylor’s value would be viewed so high by the Oakland A’s … they have to be including another player from Toronto?

  128. D_Bloc

    December 15, 2009 at 5:01 pm

    Philliesnation, you have been sent down to AAA to work on keeping your servers active after word of the Halladay trade. Just continue to work and you’ll find your way back up in no time. Your’re just not ready for big time yet.

    A BIG J-SLASH-K (j/k)

  129. Andrew

    December 15, 2009 at 5:01 pm

    Compare the prospects given for lee to the ones gotten for him. Plus the half year they got of lee. Tahts all that can be said about that deal. Drabek and Halladay arent any part of it at all. Common sense will tell you this.

    Halladay is worth more because he wanted to be in philly and would tkae below market. No extension no trade.

  130. Matt M

    December 15, 2009 at 5:03 pm

    griffin-Screw value. Talent>Value.

  131. Schwalmy

    December 15, 2009 at 5:04 pm

    The real question is ” are the prospects we recoeved for lee equal to the prospects we gave up 4 him?”

  132. George

    December 15, 2009 at 5:05 pm

    The Phils dumped Lee so they could pay Halladay, and also are getting $6 million from Toronto to pay him. If the Phils can barely afford Halladay now, when it amounts to a $750,000 price hike, (remember, they still need to get bullpen help) how on earth do they afford him in 2011 when the difference could be $20 million plus? They may have an ace for 3-4 years, but they’ll have to trade everyone else for bags of balls to pay that ace. Halladay is a nice acquisition, but he’s not an entire team. And now, the Phils have a sore-armed pitcher, an outfielder with no power, and a possible future relief pitcher to serve as replacements.

  133. NJ

    December 15, 2009 at 5:06 pm

    Do we really think the Phillies front office has not done its due diligence on the Seattle prospects of which two are meant to be the best pitchers in their system?

    Also has JP Riccardi not taught us armchair fans you can easily massively misread the market and at the end of the day Lee was an impending free agent no matter how you spin it…

  134. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 5:06 pm

    Yeah – great business move, terrible baseball one.

    Even if this was a great business move, let see… The Phillies made about $19M in profit in 2009. Assuming that 2010 would be equally as profitable (which isn’t conceivable), the owners weren’t willing to risk $9M in earnings to have a MUCH HIGHER probability of winning another World Series? Not to mention buying in on a REAL OPTION to propel the franchise into the upper echelons of MLB franchises? For the owners, there’s something to be said of brand equity. If the Phils win the title in 2010, that $9M would be a neglible investment with enormous ROI.

    Therefore, trading away Lee, is still FOOLISH in my eyes, both from a baseball perspective and financial perspective.

  135. Don M

    December 15, 2009 at 5:07 pm

    are people seriously bitching about this move??

    Cliff Lee isn’t anywhere near as good as Roy Halladay… so now we have the better pitcher for FOUR years.. instead of the other guy, for ONE .

    Drabek has ZERO experience at the Major League Level …

    maybe he’ll go down as the greatest pitcher ever, but I doubt he’ll ever be better than Halladay is about to be in the next 4 seasons with the Phillies..

    Lee had to go because if he stayed, our payroll was pushing $160 Million… this ain’t New York (thank god)

  136. NJ

    December 15, 2009 at 5:07 pm

    ^us armchair GMs

  137. badlukk13

    December 15, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    Matt M – The way I’m looking at it is this:

    Given the opportunity, I’d gladly trade Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies and Juan Ramirez for a World Championship. Keeping Lee would lose those prospects, but would likely net the Phils a third World Series victory, so they’d essentially be doing just that: trading Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies and Juan Ramirez for a World Championship. So Lee walks after that to test the market, who cares! Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies and Juan Ramirez aren’t bringing us a Championship, and we lose Lee either way… so stick with what gets you a Championship– Lee.

    Halladay and Lee both eat innings, so a leaky bullpen becomes much less of an issue; and since the free-agent market for bullpen pitchers sucks this year, keeping Lee gives you another year to try again. Having both Doc and Lee in the same rotation will sell-out the stands all year, so you’re undoubtedly going to earn back the cash you spend on Lee’s Salary.

    You said that they weren’t getting anything better for Lee in the prospect department, I’m saying that’s precisely the reason they should’ve just kept him on board and lose him to free-agency next year.

  138. griffin

    December 15, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    Matt M, I don’t have the time or the patience to touch that one. If you don’t see that a good player making a lot less money leaves more payroll room to add other pieces then I don’t know what to say.

    Don M, I totally agree on Wallace. I would have traded Taylor for Wallace and picked up Feliz’s option and let Wallace start in 2011. Amaro dropped the ball on that one.

  139. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    Matt M – I’m not saying at all that Halladay isn’t equally as capable as Lee. I’m saying that for the price of $9M, we could have Halladay AND Lee NOW.

  140. j reed

    December 15, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    Halladay was made to eat Yankees and RedSox. Yummie. Plus, he wasn’t foolin’ around with wish washy, wait and see free agency mind set that Lee choose to adopt. Halladay knows this team is built to win for some time…I guess Lee likes rain, coffee and Mircosoft. At least the Dodgers or the Mets can’t get there grubby hands on him out there in Seattle.

  141. JeffS

    December 15, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    Schwalmy, to be fair to those on the other side of the argument, I would say the question is really “are the prospects we received for Lee equal to the prospects we gave up for him, plus the short time we got from Lee, and is the equation adjusted for any increase or decrease in Lee’s value based on his postseason experience, 4-0 playoff record or whatever it was, and 1.5- ERA.”

    As me in several years, but I am really not impressed with what Seattle is sending us, and from their blogs, they weren’t either. M fans think they dumped some garbage on us, and they may be in a far better position than we are to know.

  142. joedad

    December 15, 2009 at 5:12 pm

    Halladay is a better pitcher who dominated for years in the most talented division in baseball on a mediocre team. He can pitch on 3 days rest so pencil him in for games 1, 4 and 7 of WFS.

    Lee played hardball with the Phils and lost. He was on a team that had as good a chance as any team to make it to the WFS. Now he is on a small market team that will be lucky to make the playoffs. This is a trade for the future and the future is now.

    RAJ has some big nads to pull this off. Let’s hope it is as good a move as I think it is.

  143. j reed

    December 15, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    Now with Lee off the books, does that free up mo’ money? I suck panda farts when come to the money end of things…

  144. NJ

    December 15, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    Tim Kurkjian on ESPN described Halladay as a top 5 pitcher and Lee as a top 15… Cliff Lee has been an elite frontline pitcher for 2 years, Halladay is a possible Hall of Famer given his impact on the game in last decade.

    Do some of you guys really think if we could have Halladay and Lee now the front office hasn’t looked into that and found no way of making it possible?

  145. The Original Chuck P

    December 15, 2009 at 5:14 pm

    Great time for the website to be down… I’ve been dying to see what people were saying on here.

    My opinion… sliced into two separate deals, this doesn’t look great on paper (specifically the first part) but the end result is satisfactory. Two deals analyzed…

    1. Lee for prospects: Lee could have fetched more on the open market… I’m guessing that Rube went to the Mariners first and probably didn’t do much searching beyond Seattle… Gillick’s good ole boys. Lee is worth two first round picks as a free agent so he should be worth at least one top 50 prospect. He’s dominant and he’s low risk (cheap for one year)… you can’t convince me that he’s not worth more.

    2. Prospects for Halladay: Toronto nabbed three of our four top prospects for Halladay… two BA midseason top 25 prospects. One of Aumont, May, Ramirez or Cosart might be able to replace the sting left from dealing the man with the best curveball in the minor leagues (Drabek) but I see no one on the farm that has the raw power of Michael Taylor now that he’s gone. Look, I’m high on Dom Brown and his potential like everyone else but Michael Taylor is going to be a legitimate MLB power hitter… we don’t have anyone that we can say that about on the farm. I guess any good deal has some sting to it but Toronto was without options… really, who else was out there bidding on Halladay’s services? I’m THRILLED that we got Halladay for a VERY good deal (4 years with 2 options years is good) and I somewhat understand that we probably had to pay a higher price just to convince Toronto to let us negotiate that extension but I think that if Rube had played his cards a little better, maybe JUST MAYBE he could have spared one of Taylor or Drabek.

    As a fan, I will say that it sucks that we can’t have both… it’s a business too and I get that but I’m in the business of fanhood. I live by the credo, “Show me what you’re doing to win.”

  146. shag beta sigma delta

    December 15, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    Like every trade you really have no idea how good this one will be, what will Drebek and Taylor do in Toronto, what will the kids we got from Seattle do. When trading prospects or for prospects the trade can not be defined as good or bad right now. What if Lee pitches like he did for Cleveland last year, Seattle’s offense that much better the Cleveland’s? I love what Cliff did for this team last year, he brought us the energy and stuff to get us back to the WS.
    But RAJ has pulled the right moves so far so I will believe in him. In 2 or 3 years down the road we become the Pirates then I will bash him. But like some people have said, does anyone know these players that write on this blog? I say no the Phillies FO I think is smarter then us.

  147. joedad

    December 15, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    JeffS, the questions are “Does 4+ years of Roy Halladay, 1/2 year of Lee, Ben Francisco and 3 prospects give us a better team than had we kept the 7 prospects we gave up?” Abso-freaking-lutely.

  148. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    badlukk13 : AMEN TO THAT!

  149. Matt M

    December 15, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    badlukk13-First off, they’re coming off of their second straight pennant they’re going to sell out even if they didn’t have Lee and Halladay.

    Second, having Lee and Halladay doesn’t guaruntee a championship. As you’ve seen the last two years, the bullpen is what wins in the postseason and keeping Lee with Halladay limits any improvements the team can make in upgrading the bullpen which is the only weak spot on the team. Their rotation is good enough to get them back to the World Series as is.

    Third, letting Lee walk could backfire just as much as taking these three prospects from the Mariners. Judging and drafting prospects is just as risky as trading for them. Also, keeping Lee and trading Blanton would make the farm even worse than it is now because he would have commanded less unless they threw in Happ and they would be forced to rely on Moyer Kendrick and Carpenter next year or one of the FA pitchers(none of whom are better than Blanton or Happ).

  150. Andrew

    December 15, 2009 at 5:18 pm

    why are people comparing the prospects we got for lee for the ones we sent for Halladay? Illogical. You compare the prospects we sent for lee for the ones we got for lee. The end. Common sense people.

  151. Jason

    December 15, 2009 at 5:18 pm

    NJ says

    “Do some of you guys really think if we could have Halladay and Lee now the front office hasn’t looked into that and found no way of making it possible?”

    LOL, because having a job in the FO auto = smart.

  152. Matt M

    December 15, 2009 at 5:19 pm

    Griffin-They’re technically spending only $1 million more for a far better pitcher. If you can’t see that then I don’t know where to start.

  153. The Voice of ROWAN U.

    December 15, 2009 at 5:25 pm

    We Phils fans are like one big family. We love our Phils and everyone has a different perspective. The fact is, mine is the correct one. Roy Halladay will make a believer out of all of you. He is a stud. Just look at his complete games and shutouts on a MARGINAL team. He will put up serious numbers that will have us all slobbering. He will make the bullpen better and COle and J A will learn a lot from this guy. I love the trade. Great news.

  154. Chuck

    December 15, 2009 at 5:27 pm

    Like I said before….

    Halladay > Lee

    Polanco > Feliz

    Gload > Stairs

    Schneider > Bako

    Castro > Bruntlett

    The Phillies gave up a lot…yes (Taylor/Drabek)….BUT….came out AHEAD in this offseason…..AND…..have set things up for beyond 2010

    Sure…having Lee AND Halladay would have been sweet….but it probably would have cost us Blanton….who now can be considered being in a Phillies uniform beyond 2010…

    So….now 2011’s rotation can legitimately be thought of as Halladay,Hamels,Happ,Blanton and ??….THAT’S NOT TOO BAD!!

  155. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 5:29 pm

    Matt M – your logic is quite flawed.

    Who says the team needs to sell after winning two pennants? Is that league a rule?

    Yes having Lee + Halladay does not equate to a championship. However, it absolutely freakin does increase the chances.

    Regular Season Rotation:
    Halladay + Lee + Hamels + Blanton + Happ >>>>>> Halladay + Hamels + Blanton + Happ + Moyer/scrub

    Playoff Rotation:
    Hallady + Lee + Hamels + Happ/Blanton >>>>>> Halladay + Hamels + Happ + Blanton

    Is $9M not worth it?

    Yes, drafts are risky, but so are the prospects from Seattle. They are at BEST 2nd tier prospects, according to Baseball America, Seattle beat writers, and other league pundits.

    “Griffin-They’re technically spending only $1 million more for a far better pitcher. If you can’t see that then I don’t know where to start.”

    I don’t know where to start with that comment. LOL!

  156. Jason

    December 15, 2009 at 5:30 pm

    Like the trade for Halladay not sure about the Lee deal. Let’s come back next year and see. Just me but I can not see into the future.

  157. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 5:39 pm


    Agreed on both points. Seattle-Philadelphia-Toronto is the Gillick “triumvirate”. One has to suspect that there must have been a comfort level dealing with Seattle.

    Michael Taylor has Ryan Howard star potential. It’s painful to see him go.

  158. j reed

    December 15, 2009 at 5:40 pm

    Go to Fangraphs or any sabrmetrically inclined baseball site and look at the pitch f/x data of Hamels and Lee. You will see that Hamels is an undeveloped version of Lee. He’s Lee minus a pitch or two…along with the fact that they are both 6’3, lefthanded at about 180lbs. While your there look at Halladay’s lefty/righty splits compared to Lee….just sick. Not that Lee’s are shabby. It just with Doc, your checkmated where ever you go.
    So, the question is has Hamels made any impromptu stops at any third world country celebrity adopt-a-marts…Time for hm to rise to his true talent level. no more distractions

  159. Andrew

    December 15, 2009 at 5:42 pm

    Aumont is the 33rd overall prospect. He was drafted 7th overall in the 2007 draft. Is marson a bigger prospect? He hasnt made a pitch when he wasnt a teenager. Looks ok to me.


  160. MJS

    December 15, 2009 at 5:42 pm

    This isn’t about would you rather have Lee or Halladay. We COULD have both, but Amaro and Montgomery are a bunch of cheap bums. It’s two different deals. If the Phillies wanted to, they could make the Halladay deal, keep Lee for 1 year for only $9 million. But the cheap front office is simply salary dumping Lee’s bargin price of $9 million. They are paying Moyer $8M. Makes no sense, you know they are going to get some so-so player mid-season that will cost them $4-6 million, why not just keep Lee for 1 year, make a run in 2010 with Halladay and Lee. No guarantees, but I would love our chances. Unfortunately, we are reverting back to the old, cheap Phillies mentality.

  161. Chris.I

    December 15, 2009 at 5:42 pm

    Amaro is a G’damn FU*KING idiot…What took this organization YEARS to rebuild, took him a matter of 5 months to piss down the drain. He’s a worse GM than Wade!! he turned our Farm into a parking lot! I hope he gets fired

  162. Matt M

    December 15, 2009 at 5:43 pm

    They’re a winning team in a big market with a chance to go back. I don’t think Cliff Lee will have that big of an impact on attendance.

    Again, I’ll take a rotation of Halladay-Hamels-Blanton-Happ and an improved bullpen which they wouldn’t be able to do with Lee over having Halladay and Lee and no bullpen in the playoffs. Maybe you need a reminder but the bullpen helped lose games 4 and 5 against New York and unless they fix it, they’re not going to win it again this year.

    I’m not praising these prospects from Seattle but there’s no way of saying that letting Lee walk and creating more of a hole in the rotation is a better move than trading him for what they got.


    You really took what I said out of context. When you add in the money they got from Toronto it’s not like he raises their payroll to a point that they can’t improve the team any more than if they kept Lee. So again, they’re really only spending $1 million more on a far better pitcher and enough payroll to add to the bullpen.

  163. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 5:47 pm

    MJS- Exactly!

    Andrew- You’re looking at an outdated prospect ranking. (This one has Carrasco in the top 50, which obviously is not the case any more).

    Here’s a current one: http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=5456

  164. David

    December 15, 2009 at 5:49 pm

    I agree that this is not a great trade. The Phils ended up giving up a ton of prospects to essentially have Roy Halladay for one year, and 1/2 year of Lee. Putting that part of it aside, what really is worrysome, is that Acquiring Halladay at the expense of Lee doesn’t make this team more likely to win the WS. I do believe Halladay will be better during the regular season for a whole season than Lee was last year. However, what more can Halladay do for the Phils that Lee didn’t do last year in the playoffs? Lee won two games in the W.S. IMO this does not put the Phils in any better shape to beat the Yankees in 2010. If they had bit the bullet, kept Lee for this year, and just let him walk for 2 prospects, then I’d say that this was a great move, and the Phils would be the fav’s for the W.S. But as great as Halladay is, no pitcher is going to be able to improve on a perfect W.S. record that Lee had last year.

  165. joedad

    December 15, 2009 at 5:49 pm

    “any third world country celebrity adopt-a-marts” haha, jreed is back and better than ever…

    The Phils did not increase payroll with the trade so they theoretically still have the same to spend on the bullpen.

    I don’t know where people come up with “bullpens win championships”. It simply isn’t true. Starting pitching is so much more important, especially in the playoffs.

  166. j reed

    December 15, 2009 at 5:52 pm

    Aumont is 6’7…you can’t develop that. That’s a plus in my book.

  167. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 5:52 pm

    David/joedad – so true. Cliff Lee made our bullpen shortcomings irrelevant in the postseason. Imagine having two pitchers capable of doing that!!!!


    Regular Season Rotation:
    Halladay + Lee + Hamels + Blanton + Happ >>>>>> Halladay + Hamels + Blanton + Happ + Moyer/scrub

    Playoff Rotation:
    Halladay + Lee + Hamels + Happ/Blanton >>>>>>>>>>>> Halladay + Hamels + Happ + Blanton

  168. joedad

    December 15, 2009 at 5:53 pm

    David, I disagree. They KNOW that Halladay can pitch effectively on 3 days rest. Theoretically (of course) Halladay pitches game 1 AND game 4 and the Phils can win in game 4, Blanton could have beaten Burnett in game 5. Now it is a completely different series with Halladay pitching in game 7 against a team that is his biotch.

  169. j reed

    December 15, 2009 at 5:57 pm

    joedad – is chan ho still sniffing glue…can’t someone convince the guy he just isn’t a starter anymore. Did we re-sign Durbin?

  170. David

    December 15, 2009 at 5:58 pm

    Joedad, if Halladay pitches three games in the W.S. and wins all three, then he will have improved on Lee. But as far as the two games Lee did pitch, you can’t improve on a 2-0 record. The phils problem is that their number 2 didn’t do enough. Having Lee as the number 2 wouldve solved that.

  171. Andrew

    December 15, 2009 at 5:59 pm

    Lee doesnt walk for 2 prospects he walks for 2 picks. Picks are alot furthur away than prospects? The halladay trade is an A+. The Lee trade is an incomplete. In 5 years look at the 3 players we gave up for lee and the 3 we got for him and we will know about the trade.

  172. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 6:04 pm

    joedad- David is right on that one. While, saying that Blanton would have beaten Burnett in game 5 might be a plausible idea, it in no way compares to having having Halladay + Lee pitch in games 1,2,4,6, and 7!!!!

  173. j reed

    December 15, 2009 at 6:04 pm

    Halladay is the name given to the creature that haunts fledgling Yankee fans in their sleep.

  174. joedad

    December 15, 2009 at 6:05 pm

    I don’t see any team signing Park as a starter unless they picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

    Durbin is either signed or offered arbitration.

  175. David

    December 15, 2009 at 6:07 pm

    Andrew, you can’t call the Halladay trade an A+ this early. We have no idea how Halladay will do, nor any idea how the three prospects will do. When Montreal traded Sizemore, Cliff Lee, Brandon Phillips for Colon, in 2002, Colon was an Ace type pitcher. Anyone think that was an A+ for the Expos? Im not saying that the Phils gave up the same caliber of players, but you just can’t evaluate these deals this early. You have to wait for actual MLB performance before you can judge this deal.

    Joedad, I would also point out that if you, or anyone, does think that Halladay wouldve been the difference for the Phils last year and wouldve won the W.S. for them, in place of Lee, that should piss you off more because the Phils couldve had Halladay last summer, but waited until now to get him.

  176. joedad

    December 15, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    I wont argue that Lee for one year would have made the rotation sick and 5 games of Halladay and Lee in a series is almost a guaranteed win. However, if I have an either / or, I would go with this trade over keeping Lee and hoping he will sign an extension. I am sure he has a hard cap and couldn’t pull off paying both players.

  177. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 6:12 pm

    David, actually, the Phils couldn’t have gotten Halladay without Happ last summer, correct?

    The bottom line, to me, is $9M of cash plus questionable 2nd tier prospects such as Aumont, Ramirez, & Gillies are meaningless compared to the prospect of having a vastly improved chance of winning a 2nd title in 3 years.

  178. Andrew

    December 15, 2009 at 6:14 pm

    Colon is sideshow bob. A bit of a clown. Halladay is a true stud. Only phillies pitcher in my lifetime to compare is Carlton.
    the phils couldnt have Halladay last summer. Thier now fired GM was being a moron about it all. It all worked out well for the phils.
    I will say this again. The key to it all is Hamels being the 08 hamels and nto the 09 Hamels.

  179. joedad

    December 15, 2009 at 6:15 pm

    David, the price was higher last year. They wanted Happ, Drabek, Brown, Gose and another player. I also heard (from a sports writer, maybe Zolecki) that Toronto wouldn’t allow the Phils to negotiate a contract with Halladay before a potential trade. These are different circumstances. I can’t complain that they picked up Lee instead last year who started off great, then sucked worse than Eaton in September, scared the hell out of us, then finished off with a remarkable postseason.

  180. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 6:18 pm

    “I am sure he has a hard cap and couldn’t pull off paying both players.”

    That’s why I personally don’t blame RA for this, it’s the foolishness of the owners.

  181. Stuart

    December 15, 2009 at 6:19 pm

    Yeah I think my biggest question is why trade Lee. It just doesnt make sense. The money is there. We have one of the best lineups in the league why not have one of the best one two punches as well. We cant get rid of moyer and his salary instead? or maybe blanton. who would you rather have blanton or lee?

  182. GWFightinsFan

    December 15, 2009 at 6:19 pm

    I think what has people upset about this, is not that they think Lee is a better pitcher than Halladay, he’s not. And it’s not that we could have or should have resigned Lee for whatever ridiculous amount he was going to ask for in the offseason, cause they probably can’t and shouldn’t. It’s that they could have had Halladay last summer for a simelar package to the one they just gave up. Instead they went and gave four prospects to cleveland for Lee, and now have shipped him off to Seattle in what amounts to a salary dump for some rejects who I am pretty sure won’t amount to a hill of beans for them. And now all they have to show for it concretely is Halladay, whereas if they just pulled the trigger last summer, we’d at least still have some of our own prospects with us. So essentially what happened is, instead of giving up just 3 prospects for Halladay last summer, they’re giving up 7 for Halladay and some of Seattle’s garbage. At least if they bit the bullet and sucked up Lee’s salary, they’d have a damn good shot at another parade this year and could let him for for picks later. My whole point is, they’re not a substantially better team as a result of this deal, and our farm system is severely depleted. Not my idea of a smart baseball decision. This was all about money, plain and simple.

  183. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 6:22 pm

    No one’s dumb enough to take Moyer and his $8M obligation.

    Blanton, however, would have been easy to unload. But I’m guessing the front office really wanted those prospects…. .

  184. David

    December 15, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    SDO, From what I’ve read, getting Drabek or Happ was the obstacle last summer in a potential Halladay deal. Phils wouldnt give one of them up, Jays wouldnt trade for a package without one. I’m not in on these calls between G.M.’s so I don’t really know anything for sure. Its just what I have read places.

    Andrew, I agree that Halladay is a better pitcher than Colon. However, in 2002, Colon was viewed as a stud pitcher. Maybe he wasn’t one of the best 5 pitchers in the game, as Halladay is, but he was a 29, won 20 games in 2002 with 8 cg and 233 IP and a 2.93 era. Not exactly a chump. My point is just that even assuming Halladay is a top 5 pitcher for the next 3 years, we don’t know what Drabek or Tayler will be yet. I do agree that Hamels is the key. However, if we don’t move Lee to save money, then Hamels is a pretty great #3. Kind of pisses you off that Ruben gave a two year deal to Moyer. Take away that 6.5 million that he gets this year and you can keep Lee. Ugh.

  185. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 6:24 pm

    GWFightinsFan – don’t forget about Happ in the equation. We keep Happ!

  186. David

    December 15, 2009 at 6:25 pm

    GWFightinsFan, Exactly! That is what I was trying to say, but worded much better. Instead of overpaying Moyer last year (shouldve never gotten 2 years) we could have kept Lee this year.

  187. David

    December 15, 2009 at 6:26 pm

    SDO, I dont think that we wouldve had to deal happ and drabek and taylor last summer to get Halladay. I think it was either happ or drabek, but not both.

  188. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 6:27 pm

    David, no – Happ was part of the loony GM’s demands:


  189. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 6:28 pm

    David/GWFightinsFan – there’s no point in crying over the Moyer contract at this point. That $8M is a sunk cost. We need to talk about what REAL actions RA can take now – especially if that includes walking away from the Seattle deal.

  190. Jeff of Nova

    December 15, 2009 at 6:30 pm

    Thiss is just fascinating trade and the thought process behind it.

    I know the RAJ is trying to do 3 things

    Strengthen the Philllies now and for years to come

    Keep the payrole under 140 mil

    Keep thhe Farm intake

    I think Doc is an upgrade from Lee, but not a huge upgrade, but is big in the sense that he is a right hander, so this goes back to Hamels and Happ. If Hamels pitches like 08 this is win win. Happ gets to go after Blanton not Hamels which helps him. Lee would not sign here for a discount Halladay would and did, good Job Rube!

    The under 140 thing will work if the money they are saving in gettinig rid of Lee helps them bring in more bullpen help. Not liking wasting that money on the possibility of a bullpen arm, rather have a a every 5 days of 7-9 inning starter.

    All will depend on these 3 prospects coming from Seattle and the fact that Brown is staying. I have been a huge Drabek follower and HATE that he is gone, but if 2 of these pitching prospects are comparable then I can deal, but if that is the case why not send one of them to Toronto instead of Drabek, we have invested a lot in him

    Can’t wait til this is over and we know everything!

  191. Jeff

    December 15, 2009 at 6:32 pm

    You guys are really horrible. Your team just got the best pitcher in baseball and you still bitch. Ruben is doing his job. My god already. STOP. Become Met fans and see how bad it is. Roy Halladay the man you wanted last season is here and wants to pitch for alot less then Lee. Ruben knows the insides we dont. Stop and get excited already. GOD.

  192. william

    December 15, 2009 at 6:32 pm

    Question: If Brandon Morrow were in the deal instead of Aumont would everyone still be this upset

  193. Jason

    December 15, 2009 at 6:34 pm

    Re: Jeff of Nova, you’re not getting a quality reliever for the less than 4 mill a year that is being saved by trading for Roy halladay lololol.

  194. Havoc

    December 15, 2009 at 6:39 pm

    I’m hesitantly on board with the deal. It’s a shame that it couldn’t have been everyone’s dream rotation, but if Cliff Lee wanted to be a free agent, and Halladay wanted to sign an extension it makes it easier to swallow. No way you get pitchers like Halladay on 3 year deals normally.

    It’s tough losing Drabek & Taylor in the deal, but I think the package we’re offering is significantly less than it was at the trade deadline. I’ve been reading that the actual asking price from the Jays was Happ, Drabek, Brown & Gose, so to get Halladay here by only giving up Drabek isn’t as bad. We’ll need to start stocking up the minors in a few years though.

    I will say this despite it all I think this rotation makes us better & more balanced.

    1. Halladay
    2. Hamels
    3. Blanton
    4. Happ
    5. Kendrick

    I’m going to put my faith in Ruben and the Phils. They’ve gotten us this far and they’ve still got the money to improve the bullpen.

  195. Greg

    December 15, 2009 at 6:40 pm

    O.K,that’s fantastic we got Halladay,but Ruben just unloaded Lee
    for nothing? That is where the scrutiny is.He did’nt want the phillies fans to think we had both Halladay and Lee.Only time will tell how this trade goes
    down.We should have kept Lee for the year!!!!!!!! The Phillies can afford it.

  196. j reed

    December 15, 2009 at 6:40 pm

    Well they wanted 3 top prospects and Happ to which even I who wrote a dissertation singing Halladay praises in these blogs, objected. The decision was made based on Lee desire to dabble after 2010. That was the wild card in all this. Well look at it like this: Yankees, Dodgers, Cards, Mets can’t get there hands on either Lee or Halladay. I would have like to see them bite the bullet but that decision was set by the phantom 5 ownwership. I don’t think Amaro would have blinked at the extra 9 mil. had he been given the green light to spend.

  197. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 6:42 pm

    william – it certainly would make it more believable that RA was trying to restock the farm system!

  198. Jeff

    December 15, 2009 at 6:44 pm

    You were not going to get Halladay if you did not get rid of Lee. So stop already. Lee was trade for three prospects and we save his money for next season. Maybe a Smoltz will come in. You guys are terrible. Guy just made a great trade and you moan and complain. Oh yea and he got rid of our weakest player in Feliz and brought in a fan favorite….Oh yea and Gload. I guess we all hate the Ibanez deal too. Also giving Howard an extention. He is terrible. I think he knows his job very well. I cant wait to see Halladay.

  199. JeffR

    December 15, 2009 at 6:46 pm

    Philly Texan Says:
    By trading Lee, we’re not banking on just one year. The team is set up for World Series runs the next two years at least and probably three.
    In the next 2-3 years, our rotation could still be Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Happ, and Kendrick or maybe Aumont (I know he’s had arm problems, but the kids is still a ridiculous talent.

    Wrong. Blanton is a free agent after next year and will walk, the same as Lee would have been. We’re exchanging one year of Lee +2 draft picks for one year of Blanton plus those marginal prospects. If we were really serious about winning now, I know which option I’d go for.

  200. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 6:50 pm

    “You were not going to get Halladay if you did not get rid of Lee.”

    False. The two trades were not tied together. This was strictly a financial decision by the owners.

  201. SDO

    December 15, 2009 at 6:53 pm

    Jeff – you don’t even know the facts of the trades (see post about $15M for Lee’s salaray), yet you come here insinuating people here are idiots. What balls you have.

  202. j reed

    December 15, 2009 at 6:59 pm

    As to prospects check this out:
    It was determined that
    31% of top 10 pitching prospects bust and
    33% of top 26-50 pitching prospects bust
    Aumont is 33rd, so at least he and Drabek have the about the same chance to fail. It aint much but might make it feel a little better about losing Drabek.

  203. Keith E

    December 15, 2009 at 6:59 pm

    One crazy trade story and the site breaks!
    If this keeps up we’re going to need new servers.
    GO PHILS!!!

  204. Andrew

    December 15, 2009 at 7:00 pm

    The mets signed Chris coste and offered kelvin escobar a minor league contract so far this year. They have the second biggest payroll. Must be great in mets nation.

  205. j reed

    December 15, 2009 at 7:11 pm

    You mean Kelvin “what year haven’t I’ve been on the DL” Escobar. I guess the Mets were hedgeing their bets….at least now they know he’ll be on the DL eventually and not disappointed when he joins the rest of the team on the DL.

  206. j reed

    December 15, 2009 at 7:24 pm

    5 minutes and three fights…If we can’t beat the pens in play at least we beat the crap out of them.

  207. Pat Gallen

    December 15, 2009 at 7:27 pm

    Keith E. we got em! And then they broke, so we got newer ones.

    I see a lot of disappointment here, and I can understand it. I think Amaro may have been a bit trigger happy, but the silver lining behind this is that one year from now, they would have come away with nothing. No Lee, no Halladay, just a lump of “maybes” in the farm system.

    MAYBE Drabek is an ace in waiting. MAYBE Taylor takes over for Werth. MAYBE in 5 years, D’Arnaud is a stud. All maybes. MAYBE the Phillies sign Lee to an extension. All may have happened, but Roy Halladay is the only sure thing here. Thats what Ruben was looking for and thats what he got.

    Im just as upset as the next guy that Taylor and Drabek are gone, I was excited to see what they could do. But we have to look ahead now, whats done is done. Lee was a Phillie, he no longer is. It’s now about what Doc can do. And I think its fascinating.

  208. j reed

    December 15, 2009 at 7:35 pm

    I think the lackey deal is what made RAJ jump. A better to be safe than sorry move.

  209. Keith E

    December 15, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    @Pat Gallen >Keith E. we got em! And then they broke, so we got newer ones
    I was just poking fun and trying to break some of the tension. Keep up the good work.
    GO PHILS!!!

  210. joedad

    December 15, 2009 at 8:26 pm

    I can’t call the owners cheap because they are going to be in the top 5 or so in spending this year. $9 million is not a drop in the bucket when payroll is $140 million. They bumped up payroll from last year already. $9 million more would be 6.5% higher. It ain’t your money.

  211. Brooks

    December 15, 2009 at 11:52 pm

    All depends on the way you look at things – we now have the best starting right hand pitcher in baseball today and until 2014.
    Phils need some bullpen support to complete this ride.
    Cole will be fine, as much of a princess he was this year, I think the kid is definitely tough and will come back with a really good 2010 and make us all believers again.

  212. Don M

    December 16, 2009 at 10:18 am

    Does anyone know how much the Phillies made last year??

    Everyone is saying that we can afford $160+ M payrolls… Im not sure where the hell that is coming from

    We JUST went over $100 M in the past like 5 years.. and have been climbing steadily upward since then… but you need to set a limit at some point, and they did… at $140 Million. How can anyone complain about that??

  213. Brian of CO

    December 16, 2009 at 6:06 pm

    This is a sticky situation to me losing Lee. We either keep Lee and get no prospects and weaken our farm system slightly for the future, and almost assuredly go to the WS AGAIN, and have a MUCH better chance of winning in 2010, or we lose Lee get some DAMN NICE prospects, and have a DAMN GOOD team and have a decent chance of continues success for 3 to 4 years, rather than just 1. We would have a much better chance at winning another WS with Lee, bit Halladay doesnt hurt AT ALL. Maybe RAJ could have traded Hamels instead, and kept Lee. LOL.

  214. Fresno DUI Lawyer

    December 16, 2009 at 8:17 pm

    It’s weird to think this is actually happening for real

  215. Jimmie Pruna

    June 22, 2010 at 7:45 am

    Frequently there is confusion in what we write, a lose of what is reality and fantasy, maybe even fantasy in our personal minds of the way see the world and people close to us.

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