Odds and Ends: Taylor, Lowry, Wang – Phillies Nation
Odds And Ends

Odds and Ends: Taylor, Lowry, Wang

-While scanning the Top 100 MLB Prospects, as ranked by ESPN’s Keith Law, an uneasy feeling came over me when I found #24.  The kid is built like a statue, going 6’6″and 250 pounds, and is now a member of the Oakland A’s.  Michael Taylor is his name, and I have a funny feeling he will come back to haunt us as one of those Ryne Sandberg-types.

Guys that are 6’6″ with great instincts, a power bat, defensive skill, and a Stanford background don’t grow on trees.  Maybe I’m at my own party on this one, but I almost wanted to see him stay more than Domonic Brown.  Taylor was interviewed at a Phillies game during the summer and just impressed me with his camera presence and demeanor.  Sometimes upside is overvalued, not that I don’t think Brown will be a stud, because he clearly will, as Amanda Orr pointed out. However, I think the Oakland A’s are in for a treat of a player with Michael Taylor.  Now, playing in their ballpark is another story.

-The Phillies will watch former San Francisco Giant Noah Lowry pitch on Tuesday as he continues his comeback from a rare nerve disorder. He’s now 29-years-old and has missed the past two seasons, but I like the idea here.  Again, the Phillies are searching for low-risk, high-reward types and Lowry certainly fits that bill.

Before his lengthy setback, Lowry had two above-average seasons with a below-average tossed in.  In 2007, he made 26 starts, going 14-6 with an ERA of 3.92.  He won’t strike guys out (87/87, BB/K) but that could have been because of the arm trouble.  He struck out 172 in 2005. The only problem is the park factor.  His .226 BAA on fly balls would likely make a jump due to the fact that he played in spacious AT&T Park for his entire career.  If he still has it, and can be ready by opening day, I would take a chance on a guy like Lowry.

-Chien Ming Wang I’m not so sure about. Six teams are reportedly interested in the former Yankee, and Scott Lauber said earlier in the week that while the Phillies were interested, they weren’t sure how interested because of his injury.  He won’t be back at the start of the season, which renders him semi-useless as Jamie Moyer is in the same position.  They need someone who can step in right away.



  1. Paul

    January 29, 2010 at 10:42 am

    Living in Northern California, I have seen Lowry pitch quite a few times, and if this guy can get back to where he was, he would be a steal for the Phillies.

  2. DudleyMonk

    January 29, 2010 at 11:13 am

    Michael Taylor will haunt the Phillies…count on it. I am all for the Phils giving Kyle Kendrick a real chance to start as the fifth starter. It sends a good message, and I do not think he will disappoint.

  3. bfo_33

    January 29, 2010 at 11:21 am

    I hope Michael Taylor does well. Saw him in Lehigh Valley a few times last year, including when he hit for the cycle with two homers (including a walk off) against a not good Reds affiliate. He looked like a man amongst boys. Admittedly, a small sample size, but he looks like the real deal, and I hated to see him go (still think it was the right move though). He’s a good line drive hitter, so I don’t think OAK will hurt his BA, should still aheva decent slug%.
    Lowry should be interesting, high ceiling, little risk.
    A healthy Wang would be an asset (I can hear Beavis and Butthead laughing over that one, no good way to say it), but when was the last time he pitched over 25 games – 2006? He’d be a great fit with our park and defense, but I don’t see him getting out there regularly. Someone else will probably overpay for the risk (see Sheets).

  4. Johnny

    January 29, 2010 at 11:27 am

    My bet is Lowry ends up in SD or LA. I think he’s from that area.

  5. Don M

    January 29, 2010 at 11:29 am

    If Wang isn’t signed yet.. I can’t imagine that he’ll command all that much money …. 1 year deals with options are the popular thing right now

    So I would expect the same for Wang. I had heard the Cardinals, and that would make sense for him to go there, work with Dave Duncan and try to regain his form

  6. Kevin from Macho Row

    January 29, 2010 at 11:32 am

    The important thing to remember is prospects are prospects. Some will pan out and others will fizzle. We never know how a player will adjust in the major leagues. I wish Taylor all the best with his new team, but I will never regret seeing a prospect go as long as the team continues to win.

    If the Phillies win the World Series this year nobody will be thinking about Taylor. Just my opinion.

  7. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 11:36 am

    Pat, I saw the same interview with Taylor…and came away with the same impression.

    I hope he does well,, though

  8. bfo_33

    January 29, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    Wang originally stated that he was not going to entertain offers until mid May, but received so many calls that he decided to test the market before completely healthy (he says he is 2-4 weeks behind where he would normally be if healthy). A little different than Sheets, who is airing it out now, but wouldn’t be surprised to see a $7M prorated single season deal with incentives. All things considered, I’m good with Kendrick/Moyer as the #5, with Contreras in the pen, emergency starter if needed.

  9. SDO

    January 29, 2010 at 12:15 pm

    Kevin from MR – I agree with your sentiments, but I can’t help but think that Taylor’s probability of being a bust is quite small and that he’ll probably be a perennial all-star some day.

    After some retrospect, I would have been okay today with RAJ’s decision to mortgage a significant chunk of the Phillie’s farm system talent to bring in Halladay if:

    1. Management had been consistent in their risk/reward strategy and chosen to go for it all by keeping Lee.
    2. The Phils weren’t struggling for a way to keep Werth after this year.

  10. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    Taylor might be an All-Star…he might not…

    Getting rid of him and Drabek is what it took to get Roy Halladay…at BELOW market value..

    I’m ok with it.

  11. Don M

    January 29, 2010 at 12:23 pm

    Part of the problem with Taylor is that he is seemingly ready to play in the majors right now … but he’s not better than Ibanez, Victorino, or Werth

    so they moved him because he had some value… it would’ve been nice to have both he and Brown as options still in the farm system

    But I would rather have the proven-best pitcher in baseball .. its the cost of doing business and I think a wise decision was made

  12. Bill

    January 29, 2010 at 12:31 pm

    I didn’t like seeing Taylor traded either but would prefer him being gone over Brown. The issue is the fact that Werth may not be back and Taylor would be ready as a replacement. Consider a year after that Ibanez’s deal is done and then Dominic Brown could have emerged making the team younger at both corners.

    I do not see Tyson Gillies contributing at the big league level unless it would be as a bench player.


  13. Rich

    January 29, 2010 at 12:48 pm

    Amaro says, “Wang still hurting.”

  14. The Dipsy

    January 29, 2010 at 12:53 pm

    Why do we need another fifth starter, who we don’t need for the first three weeks of the season anyway? Lowry would be no better than Kendrick, Contreras, or Moyer. Well, maybe better than Moyer.

    The Dipsy

  15. Don M

    January 29, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    Right but by next season, if you didn’t trade Taylor

    you have a rotation of
    1. Hamels, 2. Blanton, 3. Happ, 4. Kendrick, ???

    But Taylor in RF
    …. you needed to move him to get Roy Halladay.. it will be worth it

  16. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    NOT having Taylor does certainly create the need for Jayson Werth all the more..

    That’s gonna be a tough one.

  17. WFC010

    January 29, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    Actually, wasn’t Toronto interested in Anthony Gose?

    Maybe we could have switched him with Michael Taylor or something?

  18. Pat Gallen

    January 29, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    Dipsy, it’s all about depth. As we’ve learned you can never have too many healthy arms. Contreras and Moyer are a combined 247 years old. Kendrick is still unproven, basically, so if Lowry comes here and has proven to be healthy, and will do so on a minor league deal, why the hell not.

    If Wang is hurting, I feel sorry for him.

  19. Don M

    January 29, 2010 at 2:42 pm

    I’m down for every single arm that they can bring in ….

  20. Manny

    January 29, 2010 at 2:50 pm

    Pat, I’m with you on Taylor… I think he’ll come back and haunt us… All along, I thought Taylor was gonna replace Werth. Taylor obviously has less power (as of now) but he is definitely a big, right-handed bat…. at least to me, he fit in more with our current MLB team. (Brown is a lefty and more of the speed type than the power type….)

    Because of the trade, it now seems that resigning Werth –or finding an equally talented right-handed outfielder in FA– is extremely important… there’s no other power, righty bat to plug into our lineup…

  21. Pat Gallen

    January 29, 2010 at 3:00 pm

    I wonder if the Phillies believe Francisco is the guy to take over. No one has really talked much about him, but he’s had back to back 15 HR seasons, doesnt have a great arm but has some quickness and can play OF better than Raul. Interesting.

    Manny- Taylor will certainly haunt us, I have a bad feeling. But good for him, seems to be a great kid.

  22. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    I am clinging to the hope that the fact that they let Taylor go…is because the actually think they can re-sign Werth..

    Based on the numbers…I can’t see it…but who knows…???


    Put me in the “every single arm” column too….if it’s cheap enough…why not?? You never know if you’re gonna need ones of these guys.

  23. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    I like Ben Francisco…I’m just not sure that he’s an everyday player.

  24. Don M

    January 29, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    How is Taylor going to hurt us.. From Oakland?

    We got baseball’s best pitcher in the deal that sent him away.. I would have gladly driven him to the airport

  25. RC

    January 29, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    Well Gillies looks like he could be a pretty great player soon (I’m not sure he’s really all that far behind Taylor who no one knows what he is going to do at the major league level since he doesn’t even have one at bat yet) and we’re not in great need of a power hitter in the OF in the future if Brown is all he’s cracked up to be.

    It was the cost of getting Halladay and better than giving up another pitcher.

  26. Pat Gallen

    January 29, 2010 at 3:17 pm

    He’s not going to hurt us so much as haunt us. Knowing that an all-star caliber player is out there, that we could have had. That hurts.

  27. Phylan

    January 29, 2010 at 3:19 pm

    Gillies is not the same type of player as Taylor. He’s one of the fastest players in pro ball, but he has no power. What is promising, and what makes Ben Badler at least think he could be an everyday CF, is that he has good plate discipline and a high OBP, which allows speedy guys to take advantage of their athleticism. His best season so far in the minors was in an incredibly offense-friendly league in Arizona, so it remains to be seen how much of that was for real. He could be interesting.

  28. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 3:21 pm

    Too many people have “Ryne Sandberg-itis”

    Sandberg was traded for Ivan DeJesus..

    Taylor was traded for Roy Halladay..

    Not even close.

  29. Don M

    January 29, 2010 at 3:24 pm

    Not every player on your team needs to have power… speed can be just as dangerous

    Look at Chone Figgins, Jacoby Ellsbury, etc.. vs. Carlos Pena.. or any other “power” hitter

    I would trade a “maybe future All-Star” for a Cy Young pitcher every single time..
    I wish all the best for Taylor, hopefully he does have a nice career, and it will be props to the Phillies scouts and development teams . .

  30. Phylan

    January 29, 2010 at 3:31 pm

    Obviously, especially CFs, I was just responding to the “not far behind Taylor” bit.

  31. joedad

    January 29, 2010 at 3:52 pm

    I saw Taylor play in Trenton once and he crushed the ball all 4 times he was up. I thought he could be something special.

    But…after the season, he was interviewed on WIP (Macnow, I think). Macnow was announcing his stats and apparently was incorrect on the number of stolen bases. Taylor kept trying to interrupt Macnow to correct him as he continued to go through his stats. He did that a few times during the interview and i felt that he was a me-first guy.

    Regardless, if he was the cost to get us Halladay, it is a steal.

  32. George

    January 29, 2010 at 3:53 pm

    Taylor won’t haunt me a bit if Roy Halladay does his job over the next several years. In fact, I hope Taylor lives up to his potential, and does show up in the All Star game.

  33. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 3:53 pm

    Remember…”offense-friendly” in Arizona refers mostly to power hitters..

    Not sure if playing in Reading will make much of a difference …being the type of player that he is.

  34. NateB

    January 29, 2010 at 4:07 pm

    good point chuck. a single is a single anywhere, and the same with speed.

  35. Phylan

    January 29, 2010 at 4:14 pm

    Chuck, anything from singles to doubles to triples to walks can and are influenced by league and park factors.

  36. Phylan

    January 29, 2010 at 4:15 pm

  37. Phylan

    January 29, 2010 at 4:17 pm

    Also I really don’t think correcting some radio host about your stats makes you a “me-first” guy. Nor do I really care if that guy is Michael Taylor.

    He was a tough one to lose but it was definitely worth it, especially with Dom still in the system.

  38. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    Yeah…but “offense-friendly” generally refers to power…and it’s no secret that Arizona has a higher altitude…allowing for more power.

    Sure…anything can be influenced to some degree by different parks.

    You know what I meant.

  39. mikemike

    January 29, 2010 at 4:24 pm

    How can you say Gillies isnt far behind Taylor. Taylor is major league ready, gillies is a low level player right now a ball, big jump from a to the majors.

  40. Don M

    January 29, 2010 at 5:24 pm

    Glen Macnow, and the rest of those WIP hosts all suck … they didn’t start even allowing Phillies talk until late 2007

    I remember day of big games, them talking about which guy the Eagles should keep as their backup- punter, etc..

    Screw them, good for taylor

  41. psujoe

    January 29, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    All I know is it’s going to eb interesting to follow the MLB careers of TAylor, Brown, Saunders and Gillies as well as Drabek, Aumont and Ramirez

  42. psujoe

    January 29, 2010 at 5:27 pm

    Downs is now available. I was hoping we could get him packaged with Hallasay, but you can’t have everything you want.

  43. The Dipsy

    January 29, 2010 at 5:57 pm

    So Pat….now you have Lowry, Contreras, Kendrick, and Moyer. Is Lowry going to take a minor league deal beacuse if he doesn’t and he stinks then we have to keep him in the pen or eat his money. Is Kendrick out of options? For arguments sake, lets say Kendrick wins the job. That means we have to find room for Contreras, Moyer, and Lowry in the pen. There are only so many jobs. If Kendrick wins the job, which he very well might, you’re might have to eat a contract as result. Not good for a capped team.

    The Dipsy

  44. Andrew

    January 29, 2010 at 6:09 pm

    Sometimes I wonder if these sites exist to cry about players lost instead of praising the players we have on a 2 time in row defending NL champion.

  45. j reed

    January 29, 2010 at 6:18 pm

    More Wang talk ….anyone know what the scouts are saying. I like sinkerballers…. I am still perplexed though… why is the FO even shopping for anything when they are supposedly in the red…After all, they, according to a Daily News article, declared during the winter meetings that “the Phillies mean business on their budget”. Not that a team loaded with all this talent, in a huge town of rabid sports fans, would impose a cap on themselves….

  46. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 6:25 pm

    So here’s a thought on that, Dipsy…it may be a stretch…but bear with me..

    Let’s say Ruben is given a choice…push payroll to $149 and keep Lee (knowing he sacrifices the 3 prospects…but giving us all one glorious summer)… and that $149 is FIRM…no wiggle room..ZERO


    He’s told…$140 is your payroll number…BUUUUTTT…you have a little flexibility with that…a few extra million to play with…in case of emergency.

    So he picks the second option…shrewdly…getting the three prospects for a guy he knows isn’t gonna sign here…and still has a little extra play money to tinker with these “low risk-high reward pitchers”..

    Basically…how firmly “capped” is the team.??

  47. The Dipsy

    January 29, 2010 at 6:45 pm

    Chuck, I have no idea. I think it would be kinda silly if Ruben was given a hard number and then, when presented with an good opportunity that may cost a couple of extra million bucks, told “no” by ownership. I also think we would all be mad if a guy like Howry signed for 2m and then stinks and then we have to release him. That would be a total waste of money. I have a question: If Lee actually could have been had for 3y60m, same as Halladay, if you were Ruben would you have signed him? Personally, as much as I like Cliff, I don’t think he’s a 20m pitcher yet. Maybe he’ll never be. But I sure would like the thought of having him for only three years instead of 5. To me 3/60 is a lot better than 5/87.5 or something. And then I could have cared less about the prospects.

    The Dipsy

  48. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 7:04 pm

    Well…it sounds as if Lee WAS offered that deal…3/60…Lee said no…so Ruben pressed hard to get Roy. I think that’s the way it went down.

    I agree…I don’t think Lee is a 20M per year pitcher. He might be down the road…or he could fade and just be mediocre for the rest of his career…servicable. (Kinda doubt that though)

    If I had to make the choice…and I’m Ruben…I do the Halladay deal in a heartbeat.

    That’s what you’re asking, right?…Lee at 3/60…or Roy at 4/80 with an option.

    As far as the cap…That’s what I am wondering…I really wonder with this 140 number how hard a number that actually is. I guess we’ll really never know for sure.

    Howry…I don’t know, man…IF it’s cheap enough..I guess what’s the big deal…If Ruben’s 140 number IS flexible and it allows to get more decent arms in here..in case of emergency…then maybe that’s a good thing

    As opposed to having Lee and Halladay…payroll 149…but absolutely no room for error…that’s a tough box to be in.

  49. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 7:22 pm

    actually that Halladay number isn’t right…it’s 4 years but less than 80…becasue the Phillies are only paying 9.75 this year.

  50. psujoe

    January 29, 2010 at 8:02 pm

    The Phils need the extra money if a piece is needed at the deadline. I’ll take Halladay 4/69 over Lee 4/69 any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Halladay doesn’t go through the downs like Lee does and can’t pitch on 3 days rest.

  51. George

    January 30, 2010 at 9:39 am

    The Phils haven’t reached the $140 million yet. There are some dollars left for pitching depth, although it isn’t much. With the injuries threatening opening day starts by Moyer, Lidge, and Romero, they need to look at every budget pitcher available, be it a starter or reliever. Last year, remember, Myers went down and Park couldn’t cut it as a starter. Happ took over for Park, of course. But they still needed Lopez, Bastardo, Carpenter, and Kendrick to fill in at times, and still had to sign Martinez mid-year, and trade for Lee.

    You can never have enough pitching options. Even knowing some of them won’t work out, you still have to spend the money to get them.

  52. mikemike

    January 30, 2010 at 9:46 am

    Chuck after seeing the money sheets got, I really could never say a guy wont get that, there is just no telling what teams will do now a days. Taylor is the kind of prospect you look for. A guy who at each level struggle to start and adjusted and was successful. shows the ability to learn and adapte, really a good prospect, but in my mind the phillies saw something in him they thought would stop him from being a elite player, and they think brown will, just a opinion.

  53. The Dipsy

    January 30, 2010 at 10:00 am

    Mike – How do you know the Phils saw something in him that was going to stop him from being a good major league player? I think the Phils parted with Taylor rather than Brown quite simple because Taylor is major league ready and he’s blocked. Maybe they do like Brown better. Maybe Brown is better. I liked Taylor, quite honestly. Also, leave open the possibility that in order to get that deal done, the Jays may have pushed real hard for Taylor, as opposed to Brown, so they could make that deal with the A’s and Taylor was the guy Beane really wanted. The fact that Beane wanted him, in itself, oughta tell you something about Taylor. I’m not gonna like seeing a right handed version of Dave Parker playing in another outfield for the next ten years I can tell you that.

    But we have Halladay.

    The Dipsy

  54. Chuck

    January 30, 2010 at 10:20 am

    We have Halladay….and Dave Parker #2 is in Oakland.

    It’s all good.

  55. The Dipsy

    January 30, 2010 at 10:22 am

    I loved Dave Parker.

    The Dipsy

  56. Chuck

    January 30, 2010 at 10:25 am


    Concerning what player will get…I just don’t think that Lee is a 20M pitcher…just like I don’t think Jason Bay is worth 16.5.

    Lee may get that…he so much as said…or his agent did…that he wants a CC Sabathia type of contract.. Will he get it?? Maybe..Maybe not..

    I just know that he’s not Roy Halladay…and for that reason I’m glad the Doc is now a Phillie.

  57. Manny

    January 30, 2010 at 10:40 am

    Jamie Moyer is making 9 million a year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  58. Chuck

    January 30, 2010 at 10:42 am

    6.5 million…..
    ……But I understand the frustration.

  59. The Dipsy

    January 30, 2010 at 11:22 am

    Lee is not a 20m pitcher. In order to be a 20m pitcher, to me, you have to have a proven and unblemished track record of being a stud while still still young enough to be approaching your peak years. Lee has had lapses of productivity, taking nothing away from him, but thats the way it is. To me, there are only 4 20m pitchers: Halladay, Lincecum, King Felix, and Santana (who might be falling out because of his arm). Lee is in that second tier 16-17m level with guys like Lester, Cain, Greinke, etc.

    RE: Moyer. When I heard that Ruben signed Moyer to a two year deal and yelled “no!” in my car. I knew we were gonna need that money. If you wanna reward a guy for being a trooper, a gamer, etc. have a turkey dropped off at is house for Thanksgiving. Just don’t give him a two year contract. I call those types of deals “bleeders”. Those are deals where you give a guy too many years so by the last year its just dead money. Think Eaton, Jenkins, Gregg Jeffries and Lance Parrish (old school divison). Moyer and Ibanez on this years team. I think Polanco will still be OK in his third year.

    The Dipsy

  60. Greg V.

    January 30, 2010 at 11:29 am

    I’d give Wang the Kris Benson contract but surely there are teams that would probably pay him more so I’m not banking on him wearing red pinstripes. He’s a good pitcher when healthy but the key is getting him healthy first.

  61. mikemike

    January 30, 2010 at 11:31 am

    I love Taylor dipsy, just thought the reason the phillies were willing to give him up was they though brown was better. They include him from the start in halladay talks, but they wanted brown. The only thing taylor has against him is he has diabiates and get days off from getting tired. But I Still think lee get 20 million and up. I believe the redsox or yankees, texas, mets, would do it but i could be wrong.

  62. Chuck

    January 30, 2010 at 11:47 am

    If Lee has a “career year”…you know…20-5..ERA of 3 or under…Cy Young or very close…Mariners get to the playoffs and Lee delivers like he did for the Phils in the postseason….

    ….THEN…I could see teams offering 20million.

    I think Lee and his agent thought…and correctly so, because the Phils offered it (3/60)…that the market was already there for him. I think the Phils might have been disappointed if Lee signed that deal…and maybe they’re just lucky that he rejected it.

    But if Lee has just an “OK” year…then I don’t think he’s 20 million material.

    Just my opinion.



    Let’s wait and see what Raul does this year…before we start putting him in the “bleeder” category..

    I hope he has an incredible year..

    First…because that helps the Phils win….and…

    Second…because he then has better trade value next offseason..

    That contract…or at least some of it…van be unloaded…and maybe they can re-sign Jayson Werth.

    That’s my hope.

  63. The Dipsy

    January 30, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    Chuck – Thats funny that you say that about Lee because had Lee accepted that contract, we would have Lee and not Halladay. Perhaps when and if Lee turned it down but said, “Hey, we’re in the ballpark, how about a 4y/72m contract?” then Ruben would have a problem beacuse now Lee actually WANTS to sign an extension with the Phillies at reasonable terms while all along RAJ wants Halladay and all along just expected Lee would price himself out. Then Lee becomes reasonable and RAJ says to himself “uh oh, I didn’t expect this”, then has to make the deal for Halladay quick before Lee’s people start floating that Lee wants to stay and the Philly fans freak out at the possibility of keeping him. So if Lee was being reasonable in his counter proposal to RAJ’s offer, this would explain why Lee was so visibly crushed after the trade that occurred some 72 hours after he talked extension with the Phils. He had that “left at the altar” look about him. Oh well. Thats baseball. My question is: If Lee comes back next year after an 18-8, 3.33 season and tells the Phils he’ll sign for 3/60, what does Ruben do? I say sign him. And don’t laugh. Stranger things have happened.

    The Dipsy

  64. Chuck

    January 30, 2010 at 12:23 pm

    That’s likely what transpired between the Lee camp and the Amaro camp. That would have been a sticky situation for sure….if Lee would have countered…reasonably…like that.

    I’m convinced though that he thinks that he’s worth more than that..

    Also…I think Ruben “low-balled” the number of years at 3….because all along he really wanted to sign Roy…and knew he could. He wanted Lee to say no.

    If the Phils want to go out and get him for 2011…I’m all for it. Just not sure where the $ are gonna come from..

    Oh I know…you and Don and myself and the rest of us are gonna have to shell out more for tickets, right??

  65. psujoe

    January 30, 2010 at 12:50 pm

    Guys, no way, IMO, Lee’s agent went under $20 per year. Appareantly they never countered and if they did I would say the floor would’ve been 5/$100. No way I’d take a chance on locking up Lee for 5 additional years. He’s been too inconsistant. Rube paid a lot for Halladay in terms of prospects, but well worth it for 4 years of Doc. Once Rube had Doc I believe in his mind he had two aces, a 3 and a 4 that he could keep on board(Doc, Hamels, Blanton(the missing piece, IMO) and Happ. This made Lee, right or wrong, a valuable chip to restock the farm. That’s how I see it going down.

  66. psujoe

    January 30, 2010 at 12:52 pm

    Lee in SAFECO is scary. If he’s on he’ll put up monster stats and be way out of the Phils range. Phils aren’t going moer than 3 years on anyone but Doc.

  67. The Second John

    January 30, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    “Also…I think Ruben “low-balled” the number of years at 3….because all along he really wanted to sign Roy…and knew he could. He wanted Lee to say no.”

    I think you hit it right on the head Chuck

  68. Joel

    January 30, 2010 at 1:38 pm

    Yeah I agree with the post on Taylor, he has looked good but I guess you have to give up something to get something you know?

    My beef with Amaro is that while I think he has made good moves, he still ignores the fact we need another right handed bat off the bench. Signing Castro bc he was cheap really bothered me and I think that move will come back to haunt them.

  69. George

    January 30, 2010 at 1:42 pm

    Moyer wasn’t signed just because he was a trooper or gamer. He’d just come off a really good season. I didn’t expect 2 years, though.

    I just hope he has another year like 2008, if only to shut up all the complainers.

    I hope Ibanez has a great year too, because I’m sick of hearing about how he shouldn’t have been signed for three years. Despite injuries, he had a really productive 2009, and there’s really not much reason to think he’s done.

    If you want to talk about “bleeders,” let’s go back to some of Ed Wade’s disasters, like David Bell, or the signing of Thome for 17 years or so, when Ryan Howard was on the verge of the majors. The team has just now gotten him off the books.

  70. Manny

    January 30, 2010 at 1:59 pm

    Woops, my bad on Moyer… He’s signed for 2010: $6.500 + $4.500 in incentives…

    So if he has a magical season (like 2008) he’ll be a very, very rich man.

  71. George

    January 30, 2010 at 2:07 pm

    Joel, signing Castro was not done just because he was cheap. He plays infield positions that the Phils had no backups for. He does bat right handed, though he’s not spectacular, but a team can’t just sign everyone. The other available right handed middle infielders were all way too expensive.

    It’s not just a matter of Amaro ignoring the need for a righty bench bat; I’m sure he was looking, but there are always budgets to worry about and more pressing needs to consider.

    At least Castro projects better than Bruntlett, and plays more positions than Coste, who didn’t hit much better than the Beard. The team also has Francisco for the entire season. I’ll gladly take Castro, Schneider, Gload, a full season of Francisco, and a healthy Dobbs over Bruntlett, Stairs, Coste, Bako, Cairo, Mayberry, an unhealthy Dobbs, and a half-season of Francisco. Even if Castro hits his usual .230, this is a better, more versatile bench. And if Castro completely tanks, he’s cheap enough that he can be replaced.

  72. The Dipsy

    January 30, 2010 at 2:09 pm

    George – Resigning Moyer didn’t bother me. Giving him that second year made me very angry. It was unecessary. Its not like Moyer had a lot of bargaining power. Nobody else was going to give him two years.

    Don’t get me wrong about these guys. I want Moyer to go 20-0 and Ibanez to win the triple crown this year. Yes, Wade had a lot of bleeders. I just think RAJ offers a little more than he has to sometime just to get a deal done quickly, can get his man, and be done with it and. Consequently, leaves some money on the table, I think. But if thats his biggest flaw as a G.M……..

    The Dipsy

  73. The Dipsy

    January 30, 2010 at 2:12 pm

    George – Lets say Ibanez hits to career norms this year. Its still not worth 12.6m.

    The Dipsy

  74. Phylan

    January 30, 2010 at 2:42 pm

    Dipsy is right about that – RAJ seems to jump all over players early in the FA period and give them what he needs to guarantee the deal gets done fast. That’s why we’re paying Jamie Moyer now, and it’s why we’ll be paying Raul Ibanez in 2011. We’ll see how that works out.

  75. jrollpatrol08

    January 30, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    id love for the phils to take a shot at wang, if the price is right. 2 injuries in 2 consecutive years obviously makes people forget that he at one time did have 2 back-to-back 19-game win seasons. the ‘when he’s healthy, he’s good’ mantra that teams have used to describe ben sheets is also a big part of wang’s composition. the guy has only been in the league for 5 (partial) seasons; i dont think his pitching career will phase out so fast. he has too much talent. yes, he is an injury risk–and his 2008 injury was caused by a baserunning mishap, which, for pitchers, owes itself entirely to playing in the national league…but i definitely think that he has the ability to work himself back to pre-injury form. he’s not likely to be a number 1 or 2 in the rotation, but a solid starter that teams will look at in 2011, 2012 and remember…”hey we coulda/shoulda taken a look at wang back when he was recovering from injury.” it does depend on the price, but he fits my category of low-risk, high-reward pitcher

  76. psujoe

    January 30, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    This years bench is superior. You also have Wilson Valdez on a minor league contrat. He hit a solid .250 last year for the Mets.

  77. Chuck

    January 30, 2010 at 4:04 pm

    Again, though…RAJ goes and gets his man…in Raul’s case…that’s what it took to sign him…he did have significant interest from the Angels for 3 years/30+ million..

    Ruben didn’t want to lose him so maybe he did offer him a little more…But it’s not like it’s a whole lot more…and like it’s been said…you can’t just play “hardball” with everybody.

    The thing I guess that upsets me…or rather confuses me …about Raul’s contract is that no-trade clause. Not sure why that’s in there….it could be a problem..

  78. psujoe

    January 30, 2010 at 4:13 pm

    Chuck, that no trade clause may cost the Phillies Jayson Werth. Say it aint so.

  79. Chuck

    January 30, 2010 at 5:06 pm

    Yeah…I know. If that’s ends up being the reason…I’ll be pissed…

    And this is coming from me…one of Ruben’s supporters.

  80. WFC010

    January 30, 2010 at 5:39 pm

    I didn’t even know Raul’s contract had a No-Trade clause…

    That reminds me a little too much of Ed Wade for my liking, although to be fair…Pat Gillick made a few crappy moves too, so nobody is perfect.

  81. Chuck

    January 30, 2010 at 5:47 pm

    Yeah…I want to try and give Ruben a pass here. It was one of his first moves as a new GM (although I’m sure Gillick was in on it)..

    Maybe it will all work out in the end..

    And the thing is…the Phillies can say to Raul…”Hey…you’re gonna platoon next year (2012), have limited playing time…would you consider a trade to a team that will guarantee you more at-bats??”

    He could consent to that.

    We’ll see.

  82. Joel

    January 30, 2010 at 5:53 pm

    Oh, I don’t disagree that the overall bench is better. I just think Castro was a bad signing. I don’t think he projects better than Bruntlett at all. Sure he plays alot of positions but he’s only ok defensively and over his career has hit about as well as Bruntlett’s career. So that is why I believe he was signed bc he was cheap. Do I think Amaro has had a bad offseason? No, not at all. I’m just pointing something out that might be a problem during the season that he could’ve taken care of here in the offseason.

  83. Manny

    January 30, 2010 at 6:11 pm

    RAUUUUL just had a career year in 09! Why do people expect him to fall off a cliff in 2010?? Especially with a guy like him who takes care of himself and seems very serious and disciplined…

  84. George

    January 30, 2010 at 7:03 pm

    Bruntlett’s numbers had fallen every year for the past three years. Castro’s numbers improved last year. How does he NOT project higher?

    The no-trade was probably one of the things needed to sign Ibanez, what with the competition for his services. If the Phils can’t re-sign Werth, it’s not because of that clause, it’s because Werth will be too expensive. He’ll be asking for more than Ibanez’s $12.5 million, and asking for it for a number of years.

    Let’s see how Ibanez does in 2010 before saying he’s not worth the money. A lot of outfielders had worse years than he did in 2009, and made just as much money or more.

  85. The Dipsy

    January 30, 2010 at 8:30 pm

    The mistake that RAJ, and the Cubs with Milton Bradley, made is that both teams literally signed those guys about a week before everybody decided the economy was for crap and teams cut their budgets. Lots of the players had to hang in there and take less in the end. SEE: Abreu, Bobby. If I recall though, the Phils had to replace Burrell and there were not a lot of viable RH power bats out there. Raul was a LH that could hit LHers, so I guess thats why they signed him. To me, if you announce 3 days after free agency begins that you just signed a really good player, it tells me that you probably overpaid.

    The Dipsy

  86. j reed

    January 30, 2010 at 8:52 pm

    Nobody expected Werth to do what he did last year so I agree the NTC wouldn’t be directly to blame. My thinking on giving NTCs to older players of Ibanez’s talent level and age is that chances are his value is depreciating anyway despite his performance, and therefore less trade worthy. It’s more like contract gravy to the player and doesn’t necessarily cost the club anything if they already figure he’d be difficult to move esp. with how the high dollar aging DH is on the decline as Dave Cameron of Fangraphs suggests in this passage of his article “Is the DH Dying”:

    “Teams are choosing to increase their flexibility, even if it comes at the expense of some production. Increasingly, teams want the option to use the DH spot as a pseudo off day for their regulars, or as a fall back plan if their banged-up position player is unable to acceptably field his position. With the move towards 12 man pitching staffs, limited bench sizes put a premium on roster flexibility, and teams are reacting by devaluing players who can’t play the field. “

  87. j reed

    January 30, 2010 at 8:58 pm

    I guess the question for me in regards to the Ibanez signing is why didn’t we bring Taylor up at the time.

  88. j reed

    January 30, 2010 at 9:04 pm

    the mistake the Cubs made with Mr. Board Game is that they thought the upside of playing with pipe bombs was worth the risk esp. with a team already needing therapy after the choking in ’08 NLDS

  89. deebo

    January 30, 2010 at 9:34 pm

    everyone that whines about losing lee and taylor forgets the press clippings before the halliday trade was official. there was an offer on the table for lee. he even admitted that the very same day his agent was going to offer a counter was the day his being traded to seattle got leaked. happ, blanton and brown were flown into philly for physicals during the 72 hour window the phils got from the commish to negotiate an extension. the pieces may have been interchangeable or there may have been other deals in the works. drabek or happ? toronto probably prefered a guy that’s a year away because they only have about 3 major league ready pitchers coming off the d/l. brown or taylor? taylor because they knew they could roll a ready now guy for wallace (?) from oakland. fat joe was probably being shopped to anyone with 7 mill available but other gms would give squat to someone that continually pitches 5 shutout innings and gives up 3 runs in the sixth. if you make the halliday trade and then cry poverty, you get maybe two single A prospects for lee because it is a salary dump. if you try to trade lee during the season, everyone screams for blood because, hopefully, you’re breaking up a sure thing with a 15 game lead in july. or you could keep lee and get the 30th first round pick, your own, and no supplemental pick when he signs for sabathia money with the last place mets and their new gm. RAJ had, at best, 48 hours to do something and everyone knows that the game has changed since paul owens ran the show. 4, 5 drinks and some notes on a cocktail napkin doesn’t land the likes of jim lonberg, jim kaat, mike krukow or john denny anymore. everyone also forgets that the scouts were probably 2 weeks behind after the lee acquisition. that explains the 4-0 start. what explains the 3-4 follow-up? yes he was great in the postseason, but even a 14-13 pitcher can catch fire for a month. he goes 15-12 with seattle with a 3.49 ERA and gets a. j. burnett money which further complicates the phils woes after hamels goes 16-10 and happ goes 14-11 next year.

  90. jrollpatrol08

    January 30, 2010 at 11:01 pm

    its about wang. what do you think about him

  91. Chris.I

    January 30, 2010 at 11:25 pm


    I totally agree with you about people seeming to forget that Ibanez is a stud. Look everyone…I like Werth too, but he still isn’t a stud ”Yet”. If we lost Werth after this season, I’d be hurt too, but you guys make it seem like losing Werth and having Ibanez is a bad thing. Ibanez for average would bury Werth. Atleast you know what you get with Ibanez, and that 3 yr 30 mil was a great signing for Amaro…..Cheers to you RAJ

  92. j reed

    January 31, 2010 at 12:30 am

    I think Wang be great if here. the more sinkerballers the better. As long as his injury isn’t idiopathic in nature I’d say sure if the money is there that supposedly isn’t there. I also read he has a good split finger fast ball…

  93. Chris.I

    January 31, 2010 at 1:22 am

    I think signing Wang would be a smart pickup too and this is why…

    #1. His injury is a set back, BUT it will still add depth just incase an inury comes along, or Moyer or Kendrick fall off

    #2 He will come cheap…Its like buying an 07′ BMW that broke down on the side of the road because of tranny problems, but has been fixed up and polished up a bit…You buy it cheap and take a gamble. Either that car/player is going to run like new and last 2-3 years or its going to break down again. Its def worth a shot

  94. Brooks

    January 31, 2010 at 4:34 am

    A friend of mine moved to Seattle about 6 years ago. His passion for the Phillies is what really started me in my quest to be the ultimate fan.
    Now, he is a Mariners fan and needless to say, is quite excited about the upcoming season.
    He wrote to me last night that he purchased a partial season plan – 16 games, 3 seats each for under $650. This is dead center field in the third row just behind the bullpen. Plus, with his partial season plan, he has an option to pay an additional $90 for all the choztkees (bobble heads, etc) that are handed out through the year in games he does not attend.
    Can you imagine $13 seats at CBP? Granted, Safeco Field is no CBP but it is relatively new, a dome and the club improved vastly from 08 to 09 and 10 looks pretty darn promising with the addition of Lee and Figgins. All they need is some lumber and here would be the AL west champions.

  95. WorldFudgeChamp

    January 31, 2010 at 8:57 am

    To say something about Wang. Wouldn’t it be easier to just pick up Padro again

  96. mikemike

    January 31, 2010 at 10:10 am

    Castro is a upgrade over Brunlett, Wow two bad players who cares, its a shame this team didn’t have one infielder in there system to help us and had to get castro no bat suspect glove, but he is cheap, but they must get some infield talent in the system.

  97. psujoe

    January 31, 2010 at 10:48 am

    Ibanez had a good year, but he’s poor in the field, a left handed bat(we’re loaded with) and not a great base runner. Werth is our only real right side of the plate power, a very good fielder and an excellent base runner. Those differences alone make him much more valuable than Raul, IMO.

  98. Chuck

    January 31, 2010 at 11:19 am

    “Ibanez for average would bury Werth. At least you know what you get with Ibanez.”

    That makes no sense.

    Last year’s numbers:

    Uuuhhhh…..I really wouldn’t call that being “buried.”

    And…I think we all pretty much know what we’re gonna get from Jayson Werth..

    Ibanez was a good signing…and as I said yesterday…I hope he has a great year…because….

    1) That helps the Phillies win games

    2) It only increases his trade value next offseason..

    Which may be a possibility in order shed payroll so Werth can de re-signed.

  99. psujoe

    January 31, 2010 at 11:25 am

    CHuck, WHy would you post facts?

  100. Manny

    January 31, 2010 at 11:42 am

    Chuck, from Chris’ post I assume he was referring to career stats.

    Ibanez .285
    Werth .265

    That’s a pretty big .20 point difference…

  101. Manny

    January 31, 2010 at 11:48 am

    Also, people keep comparing Bay and Werth… but aside from the obvious defensive issues, Bay seems like the superior offensive player.

    Career stats

    Werth .265 AVG /.360 OBP / .467 SLG / .827 OPS
    Bay .280 AVG /.376 OBP / .519 SLG / .896 OPS

    Just to be clear, I’m not saying this to bash Werth, cause he’s one of my favorite Phillies and I’d love for him to stay with us for many years…. but some people have put him on a pedestal already, offering him 15MM+ contracts per year, and raising expectations to a point where if the guy doesn’t hit 35 HRs you’re gonna be disappointed.

  102. George

    January 31, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    Pedro is looking for $5 million plus, Wang will probably sign for less than $1 million. That’s why it wouldn’t be easier to just pick up “Padro.”

    According to Zolecki, the payroll now stands at $134.775 million, without Happ’s and Francisco’s money. Both of them put together will probably come to about $2 million, if that. So the team still has $3+ million to spend before they hit their cap. They could easily get another fifth starter option for that. I don’t think it’ll be Wang, though, because he’ll still be injured when the season starts.

  103. The Dipsy

    January 31, 2010 at 1:19 pm

    I think with that remaining money that we’re going to go after a lefty for the pen via a trade. We don’t need a fifth starter. We have a fifth, sixth, and seventh starter (Kendrick, Moyer, Contreras). I have a prediction. I would not be surprised if the Phils just let Jaime go at some point. He’s so old and he’s had so many surgeries this off season. The odds are really stacked against him. If he can’t pitch well enough to be the fifth starter, I don’t think you can waste a spot in the pen on him. I see Contreras being the long man.

    Lidge, Madson, Baez, Romero, Contreras, Durbin, Bastardo/Escalona. I think thats your pen. If Kendrick gets the fifth spot, and I think he’ll end up with it, do you let Moyer take that second lefty spot???? I don’t.

    The Dipsy

  104. Chris.I

    January 31, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    I was talking about career stats, NOT last seasons stats. I’m not taking anything away from Werth. Like I said he’s one of my favorite players on this team too, But think about it….Werth is going to get a HUGE raise in his contract and its a possibility that we might not be able to retain him. So that being said we would still have Ibanez for one more year after this season, and by that time Taylor should be ready to take over.

    But in all honesty I’m hoping (just like everyone else) that Werth would agree to some sort of deal to stay in Philly…Hell…Even if it’s a 2 yr 30-35 Mil. I’d be happy with that

  105. Chris.I

    January 31, 2010 at 1:25 pm


    Honestly I think we are paying Moyer too much money just to let him walk during any point of the upcoming season. He’s still proven to be very effective out of the bullpen when he’s well rested.

  106. psujoe

    January 31, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    Is the $140 mil budget inclusive of the deadline? I would save the money if nothing with big upside is out there. Might be able to get a nice piece when we know more about what we’ll need for the stretch run.

  107. jrollpatrol08

    January 31, 2010 at 1:59 pm


    wang is NOT going anywhere for less than 1million, especially when realistically 4 teams are looking for his services. ben sheets just signed for 10 mil and he didnt pitch at all last year and always got hurt by the end of the seasons with the brewers.

    even if he cant start the season, i still say you bring him on board if the price is low enough. you figure kendrick will probably open the season as the 5th starter, unless another FA 5th starter type is picked up. If kendrick doesnt do so well, who are you going to go to? moyer? eh, maybe, but his chances of pitching woes are greater than kendrick’s. contreras? he might be able to start here and there, but i think the phils really want him as a long-man…sort of a combination player to make up for condrey/park.

    im basically thinking if kendrick stinks it up, who are you going to look to? i do think with the remaining cash they do need to address the fifth starter possibility, as it seems more and more that bastardo is probably going to get a shot during spring training to prove his bullpen spot as the phils lefty option…go get wang

  108. jrollpatrol08

    January 31, 2010 at 2:04 pm

    i think wang gets at least 4 mil plus incentives for the 2010 season. personally i dont see the big deal about him not being ready to start the season. kendrick is not going to pitch so poorly that by end of april the phils will be wanting to REALLY trade him to japan….(ahhhh my favorite brett myers memory)

  109. Chuck

    January 31, 2010 at 2:47 pm


    No sure of your question “Why would you (meaning me) post facts?”

    Chris I was making a point about Werth and Ibanez and I simply was referencing the stats from last season..

    And Chris..I understand that you were referring to CAREER stats…still…I don’t see Werth being “buried” by that


    Moyer….I don’t like the idea of just cutting him loose either.. There is too much money invested there. BUT…Dipsy maybe right….If he’s going to be just taking up a spot…and not contributing….then I think you have to look at it.

    Lets’s see how he bounces back from all the surgeries first.

  110. George

    January 31, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    Wang has never had Ben Sheets’ stuff. He may get a little more than $1 million but nowhere near four. He’s not even able to throw yet. If anything, he’ll probably be picked up on a split contract by a team in no hurry, pitch in the minors until June, then maybe be called up. Either that, or he signs a pro-rated contract mid-year, after some teams have actually seen him throw, much like Martinez did in ’09.

    The fact that four teams seem interested means nothing. Everyone needs pitching. The fact that 26 teams AREN’T looking says more, I think.

  111. Phylan

    January 31, 2010 at 5:47 pm

    All I know is this bullpen is going to give me a stroke sometime this season

  112. Chris.I

    January 31, 2010 at 5:57 pm

    Wang will def get more than a 1yr/1 mil deal, but not too much more than that. I’d say somewhere between 2.5 and 3.25

  113. psujoe

    January 31, 2010 at 6:14 pm

    Nothing negative meant Chuck, it’s just that people sometimes put out perception, but you put out facts. It’s was a compliment.

  114. Ivan Dejesus

    January 31, 2010 at 6:26 pm

    I think that Sanberg trade worked out really well.

  115. Phylan

    January 31, 2010 at 6:39 pm

    Wang is a good investment even if he can’t pitch right away this season. Phils should get him, but it’s looking like they won’t.

  116. jrollpatrol08

    January 31, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    “The fact that four teams seem interested means nothing.”

    –well it does mean something. it means that he will sign for more than a million dollars. 4 teams seriously interested=one team will get him by probably offering more money==wang gets signed for more than a million. that was my logic. my 4mil prediction might be kinda high, but after seeing ben sheets 10mil (which i didnt expect) i guess anything can happen. sure ben probably has better ‘stuff’ but you can’t depend on that guy if you are a team like the phils and look to play in october

  117. jrollpatrol08

    January 31, 2010 at 7:55 pm

    phylan—the bullpen is going to give you a stroke this season? ummm i may stand alone here but i think thats probably the area where the phils improved MOST over the offseason. not necessarily that they had any huge acquisitions, but in terms of the departed, im not gonna sit around at any point this season and be like “ahh shit, this is the perfect situation for (.clay condrey, scott eyre, chan ho park)??…they are ok guys i guess but mediocre. park had a decent run after he couldnt hack it as a starter, but really i dont think ruben did a bad job reconfiguring the ‘pen. i like baez, high groundball rate and i think charlie knows him from his cleveland days. and contreras, hes kind of a wild card but he still has good velocity…

    here is a little question that may ease the tension of sticky bullpen situations this season. this is what i ask myself in order to keep my thoughts positive…”do you really think brad lidge could be any worse?” come on now! its like a penny-stock. its rock bottom right now. the only direction to go is UP!

    i would have liked to have a lefty acquisition—as we still do not know how healthy/effective romero is going to be. but in regards to that, i am perfectly fine with the low-cost option of allowing bastardo to fill a lefty bullpen arm slot

  118. WorldFudgeChamp

    January 31, 2010 at 8:22 pm

    To all about this Wang stuff. Lets use on of our own for the 5th spot on the rotation.


  119. WFC010

    January 31, 2010 at 9:09 pm

    Wang or Pedro would both be great 5th starters to have, but it depends on the asking price.

  120. Chris.I

    January 31, 2010 at 9:35 pm

    Pedro is asking 1 yr/5 mil…Wang would come cheaper, but of course he’ll miss the first 2 months

  121. Phylan

    January 31, 2010 at 9:42 pm

    yes, jrollpatrol, Baez sucks, Lidge could be anywhere from awful to solid, Escalona has been terrible in winter ball, and who knows whether Bastardo’s slider will develop into something useful. If the Phillies don’t win the NL this year, it will be because of the bullpen.

  122. WFC010

    January 31, 2010 at 11:48 pm

    “If the Phillies don’t win the NLEast, NL AND/OR World Series this year, it will be because of the bullpen.”

    Fixed that for greater accuracy

  123. Philsgirl

    February 1, 2010 at 2:52 am

    For even greater accuracy “..because of pitching in general, but the bullpen specifically.” Judging by a lot of well-informed posts, I probably should start having more faith in the FO. Maybe I’ll start by trusting that RAJ has something up his sleeve saved for the pen; what are we doing again for back-up closer? Of course it’s a fact Lidge has no where to go but up; hopefully just the amount of time waiting for that directional change will be a little shorter this year than last. But another season of having to close by committee (at least Eyre and Park were not terrible in their roles given the state of last year’s pen in general), with little discernable improvement in the committee overall, could be definite cause for Phylan’s potential stroke, various arrythmias, and general acute medical disorders. BTW, does anyone know how Hamels is doing with that third pitch?

  124. Chuck

    February 1, 2010 at 7:36 am

    My bad, psujoe…I got it now. Thanks. …I do think i’ts important to try and at least include SOME facts when making an argument.

    Not saying that it’s always necessary or that the facts automatically justify the point being made.

    …But it’s better than just coming on here…a la “Just Crushed” ….and throwing a temper tantrum without knowing what the eff you’re talking about.


    Phylan….glad to see you’re so upbeat about the season and the bullpen in general.

    Yeah..Lidge COULD be “anywhere from awful to solid”….

    I think what you’ll probably see is something in the middle of last year and the 2008 season….which I’ll take in a heartbeat. Remember…it’s not like Brad Lidge was perfect in 2008…

    Yeah…48/48…BUT…not all those outings were easy, either. I think there was some luck involved with that season.

    And last year…while it was what it was ….wasn’t horrible either. Yeah..the high ERA…the blown saves…the losses…BUT…he did save 31 games….and some were brilliant.

    With Baez….the last two years he pitched for a lousy team in the Orioles..

    2007- W-L 0-6/ERA 6.44/29 SO, 29 BB/1.57 WHIP
    2009- W-L 4-6/ERA 4.02/40 SO, 22 BB/1.13 WHIP

    In fact that WHIP is the lowest since his rookie season in 2001 (1.07) when he was with the Indians.

    I think the Phillies see something they like in Baez…and I think also that being reunited with Charlie has to help as well.. Players love to play for this guy…and I think it will be a factor.

  125. Manny

    February 1, 2010 at 10:27 am

    What I like about Baez is that he was pitching in the AL East these past few years… which *hopefully* means he should be good enough after facing hitters in the best division in baseball…

  126. George

    February 1, 2010 at 11:28 am

    I’d hesitate to say that Lidge “has nowhere to go but up.” Every time I say something like that, I’m proven wrong.

    I see the bullpen as no better than last years. The closer enters as questionable, particularly coming off surgery. Left hand duties will have to be handled at first by Bastardo. Baez may or may not be good. Although last years ‘pen fell apart mid-season, at least there was more potential there when starting the year.

    That said, the ‘pen did, indeed, fall apart last year, and changes had to be made. Lidge’s pay had a lot to do with what could be done. I hope he’s great this year. I hope my worries are unfounded.

  127. The Dipsy

    February 1, 2010 at 11:40 am

    Personally, I have no problem with Danny Baez. He had a good season last year which is significant to me because he was coming off arm surgery. One would think that two years removed he should be better. I am very concerned about Romero. He hasn’t pitched a lot and he’s still somewhat hurt and there was a reason the Phillies were able to pick him up off waivers. The one season on, one season off theory for relivers plus the injuries plus his undistinguished career up until becoming a Philly worries me. I think we need a stud lefty.

    The Dipsy

  128. jrollpatrol08

    February 1, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    yea i guess i dont really see the bullpen this year any more ‘scary’ than last years. if anything i think we have more capable/reliable arms this year. as i said, im not necessarily basing this on new acquisitions, but rather on the fact that we didnt lose any impactful bullpen arms.

    we do need another lefty to definitely make the bullpen stronger, but the remaining arms available on FA seem hit-or-miss. lidge has to put up better numbers than last year, so that alone is going to give the bullpen more success

  129. mikemike

    February 1, 2010 at 2:05 pm

    last year we had lidge with about 11 blown saves, madson 6 or 7 hopefully they do better. than that this year.

  130. Chuck

    February 1, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    Yeah…one would certainly think that Lidge won’t blow 11 saves. Most closers blow a few…maybe even 5 or 6…each season.

    So if Lidge can cut his blown saves in half….that 5 or 6 more wins right there (assuming that each blown save results in a loss)…

    …still… 3 or 4 wins extra….could mean the division in a tight race!!

  131. The Original Chuck P

    February 1, 2010 at 5:04 pm

    Losing Taylor hurts… but knowing that we have Doc for 4-5 years is awesome. Most active players say that he is the best pitcher in baseball… as good as Taylor is going to be, we have the best pitcher in baseball to show for it. I got really excited when the deal was initially announced as a three team deal because I thought that they had found a way to keep Taylor or Drabek but it didn’t work out that way. I’m still happy but Taylor is going to be good… Drabek’s injury issues made him somewhat expendable but Taylor has shown nothing but upside and consistency.

    I think that there’s too much interest in Wang from the rest of the league for the Phillies to make a serious run at him (given the fact they’re up against a wall). I like Lowry and I wouldn’t mind if they took a look… I would feel better if they spent that money on a legitimate bullpen arm. 4/5 starting pitchers are kind of moot… this team has proven that you can piece the back of the rotation together with damaged goods and still win 20-25 games but a thin bullpen lends itself to serious consequences in September.

  132. mikemike

    February 1, 2010 at 5:22 pm

    Taylor i love but you got doc. The redsox gave up HanleyRamirez a allstart for a stud pitcher and won a title so it worth it, you dont get a number one for nothing.

  133. The Dipsy

    February 1, 2010 at 6:04 pm

    Taylor wasn’t gonna play here. He is major league ready and he was blocked here. In a perfect world perhaps we could have traded Ibanez and slotted Taylor in but Ibanez is untradeable unless you give him a sack of about 15m to give to his new team when he gets there. I don’t mean to imply that I love giving Taylor up. I liked Taylor better than Brown, but Brown is better for the Phils timetable, due to arrive right on time in 2012 to take over left field.

    The Dipsy

  134. psujoe

    February 1, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    OC, I’d save the money for a deadline deal for a key piece if needed. Never know if Utley, Rollins, Howard or whoever may go down. I’d hate to see a lost season and so would the brass especially spedning $140 million.

  135. Philsgirl

    February 2, 2010 at 2:22 am

    True, mikemike, we do have doc. Stud pitchers are worth their weight in gold, aren’t they..? And yeah, agreed Dipsy, timing wasn’t not right for Taylor, just kind of wishing LF could be ready for Brown/vice versa in 2011, curses on the Ibanez NTC. But that really is getting ahead of the game (season?), I’m sure this site will all but implode with views on the changing of the core as time goes on. Given the 2010 situation, if the key piece isn’t in the bullpen, even at the deadline (unless something really serendipitous happens with those guys), this could very likely *be* a lost season even spending $140 M, no? And you all know I’d really hate to see that too. Don’t ask me what’s in the brass’ minds.

  136. Philsgirl

    February 2, 2010 at 2:23 am

    Oops, grammar check, “..timing wasn’t right for Taylor..”

  137. Chuck

    February 2, 2010 at 7:00 am

    Again…that No Trade Clause was likely thrown in to the deal as “gravy” (as someone else put it). I really think that we’re making a bit too much of it at the moment.

    Let’s root for Raul to have another great season…. and help the Phillies win the division, the pennant and the World Series. Him doing well accomplishes that ….success….AND…it only INCREASES his trade value next offseason.

    And…who knows….Raul could be open to moving to a few teams….as long as he gets playing time …and it’s to a contender. Players waive their No Trade Clauses all the time.

    Let’s just wait and see how this all plays out.

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