Phillies Prospects Make Several “Top 50” Lists

With spring training around the corner, it’s time for prospect rankings to be released.  Late last summer, Phillies Nation’s Ben Seal ranked the Phillies top 25 prospects.  Since the list, a few trades have been made, but that didn’t stop the Phillies from having multiple top prospects on’s and AOL Fan House’slists.

ESPN’s Keith Law ranked the Phillies farm system 24th in baseball.  That’s a huge jump from last year, when the Phillies system was in the top 10.  As we all know by now, many prospects were traded.  However, the following list proves that the Phillies still have top talent in their farm system.

Domonic Brown (OF): Ranked 14th on, 19th on Fan House

Brown is currently the best prospect in the Phillies organization.  With Jayson Werth’s future in jeopardy, Brown could be an every day major-leaguer as early as 2011.  He hit .313 last year and has five-tool potential.

Phillipe Aumont (P): Ranked 47th on, 29th on Fan House

Aumont has had some injuries issues, but with his hard fastball and great slider, he can be nasty on the mound.  The Mariners converted him to a reliever due to injuries, but the Phillies will try to convert him back to a starter.

Anthony Gose (OF): Ranked 46th on Fan House

Many scouting reports are saying that he is still “raw,” but he has blazing speed.  He can be scary on the base-paths.

Tyson Gillies (OF): Ranked 50th on Fan House

Although known for his speed and defense, Gillies hit .341 last year.  His offense continues to progress, and like Gose, can be scary on the base-paths, as he stole 44 bases last year.

Former Phillies prospects: Kyle Drabek ranked 17th on and 15th on Fan House.  Michael Taylor ranked 35th on and 38th on Fan House.

MLB’s and AOL’s lists are fairly different, but they have something in common: they both notice the potential in these young Phillies prospects.  The Phillies also have several players, like Sebastian Valle and Trevor May, who did not make the list, but still have loads of potential.



  1. BS

    January 27, 2010 at 10:39 pm

    I was surprised to see Fan House rank Aumont, Gose and Gillies that high, but hopefully they’re right.

  2. Phylan

    January 27, 2010 at 10:42 pm

    I don’t mean to trash your effort because thanks for pulling this together for a post, but both of these lists are pretty wonky. AOL’s is compiled by Franklin Pilliere, who made a big stink on twitter about how it was going to be controversial, and he seems to have designed it for that purpose. I don’t think Gillies or Gose would crack the top 50 on most lists, at least not yet. And MLB has had a history of fairly questionable prospect rankings.

    That being said, your main point stands in that the Phillies do have a strong system; it’s just mostly centered around raw, single A guys right now. As someone pointed out to me today, not many people other than Keith Law would rank the system as low as 24.

  3. WFC010

    January 27, 2010 at 11:24 pm

    Great lists, although I feel that Trevor may could earn a place on the list very soon. He’s a guy that we don’t talk nearly enough about, but I am a huge Trevor May fan. With a bit more time in the minors, I think he could end up surprising a lot of people. He already has some filthy stuff, but needs some more time to develop.

  4. Chuck

    January 28, 2010 at 7:53 am

    I think this again emphasizes the point that we didn’t just get “junk” in the Cliff Lee trade..

    These prospects are on SOME list for a reason…and I’m sure that it’s not an accident..

    Based on what I’ve read and what I’ve heard about the guy….I am real excited to see what this kid Aumont can do.



    These lists are “wonky”??? And that whole WAR thing ISN’T wonky???

    I appreciate stats, lists, and rankings as much as the next guy. Some of it is more useful than others. But I think there is WAY too much emphasis on just the numbers.

    Somebody yesterday said it best when he made the point that most of the time you can tell how good or bad a player is…just by watching him play the game.

  5. George

    January 28, 2010 at 9:10 am

    Stats and rankings are good to a point, but I agree that the best way to determine ability is to actually watch the player.

    Years ago, I saw a Greenville Braves game (AA), and picked the three players I thought might make the bigs. Two were Jeff Blauser and Ron Gant. The third I attached a caveat to: “He’ll have to improve his control, or he won’t last.” That was pitcher Kevin Coffman, who did make the majors, but never improved his control and had an extremely short career. The rest of the team played like minor leaguers or worse. They could generate numbers, but only because the opposition wasn’t very good, either.

    Even we non-scouts can usually pick out true talent. Gant, for instance, was not producing spectacular stats when I saw him. But when he swung the bat, you just knew he had what it takes, and things would eventually click for him.

  6. Willie Wonky

    January 28, 2010 at 9:53 am

    Aumont better turn out to be the Lebron james of pitching since we gave up Lee and barring injuries a rotation that you could consider almost a Lock for a 3rd straight WS.. sadly i dont see us getting back

  7. Don M

    January 28, 2010 at 9:58 am

    Keith Law ranked our Farm System 10th last year…. but probably also ranked our MLB team like 17th .. because he’s a jackass

    Do we have the greatest farm system in the league.. no … but we’re better than most teams at drafting athletes, and developing talent … and our Big League club is better than most others so we don’t need to depend on our farm as heavily right now

    Three players that I saw last year, in person, that really, really impressed me..

    Domonic Brown.. easy choice

    P- Yohan Flande, ended the year at AA Reading.. this will be a big year for him, to either break out, or just fall into the pack

    CF- Quintin Berry, hit .266 for Reading.. stole 48 bases, .355 OBP … struck out too much … basically a light-hitting CF, but he can FLY …. covers a ton of ground in the Outfield, and if he can start making more contact, his speed will leg him out some hits

  8. Don M

    January 28, 2010 at 10:00 am

    Lebron James is the Jose Reyes of basketball ….. dancing on the bench when your team is winning by a few

  9. Phylan

    January 28, 2010 at 11:23 am

    Chuck, this has nothing to do with WAR, I’m just saying that these lists are a too high on Gillies and Gose, and probably Aumont. Watching a player and looking at his numbers should be held in equal regard – both are vital to evaluating a player.

  10. mikemike

    January 28, 2010 at 11:52 am

    The truth is Gillies and Gose arent rated that high is so true and either is Aumont, the bulk of this system is at a ball so this is a big year for them after the year we could have a really good system or bottom of the barrell, you have valle, sanchez, gose, may just to mention a few who could move the system up or down depending on there progress.

  11. Phylan

    January 28, 2010 at 12:04 pm

    Also Domingo Santana, who is very raw but a very intriguing prospect, and Jiwan James

  12. Justin

    January 28, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    Keith Law’s Phillies Organization Top 10 List:

    Philadelphia Phillies
    1. Domonic Brown, RF
    2. Juan Ramirez, RHP
    3. Philippe Aumont, RHP
    4. Anthony Gose, RF
    5. Tyson Gillies, CF
    6. Sebastian Valle, C
    7. Trevor May, RHP
    8. Scott Mathieson, RHP
    9. Antonio Bastardo, LHP
    10. Jiwan (Nathaniel) James, OF

  13. NEPA

    January 28, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    In the latest Sports Illustrated … per 22 Gm’s and asst Gm’s,The Phils were tied at 4th with the Rockies for best farm system.
    Pretty good,better than I would have guessed.

  14. NEPA

    January 28, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    Sorry…Should have been Sporting News.

  15. psujoe

    January 28, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    It will be very interesting to evaluate this whole deal in 3 or 4 years. I’m OK with the whole thing now despite having wanted to Keep Lee.

    Marson, Donald, Carrasco, Knapp, Drabek, Taylor and Arnaud for
    Halladay, Francisco, Aumonte, Gillis, Ramirez and one year of Lee.

    Basically 7 prospects for a CY pitcher for 5 years, a 4th ML outfielder and 3 prospects.

    I would’ve wanted Saunders over Gillies, but we’ll see.

  16. psujoe

    January 28, 2010 at 12:31 pm

    We’ll find out a lot more about Gillies at Reading this year. Going to be a fun year in the minors.

    Anyone see the Braves yount outfield Heyward’s stats? Alefty taht hits lefties over .300 is pretty darn impessive. Braves are movin on up.

  17. NEPA

    January 28, 2010 at 12:32 pm

    BTW,those GM’s rated Amaro as as #3 best for -Best executive at making trades.(Beinfest from Marlins,#1,and Theo Epstein Red Sox #2)

  18. Chuck

    January 28, 2010 at 12:50 pm


    I realize that these lists and WAR are two different things..

    The point I was making is that stats list and rankings are all great.. I read them, study them and appreciate them.

    This post by Amanda is about rankings and lists for some of our minor league prospects. They have merit.

    WAR is about stats.. WAR has merit..

    The point I was making is that stats AND lists are fine….but that, more importantly, you can get a pretty good idea if a player is good or not…just by seeing that player in person.


  19. Evan

    January 28, 2010 at 12:57 pm

    The Phils don’t really have any infield prospects that could hit the majors in the next two years. It makes sense why they locked down Polanco for 3 years.

  20. bfo_33

    January 28, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    32 teams, 25 men per roster, plus at least 3 levels of minors. While I love baseball, and spend more time on it than I should, I still couldn’t name half the starting mlb LFs from 2009. No chance that I’m going to catch more than a few games of anyone not in the NL East (except BOS and NYY), especially starting pitchers. Where the stats come in for me is a quick screening process (WAR, UZR,…., as well as traditional), then make an effort to watch the guys who make leaps (up or down). They are a start only, got to see the guys play (Ethier, Kinsler actually better than their very good stats, M Holiday, Bay, not so much).
    I would think the Phils are going to look for infielders this year, but their direction over the past several years has been to pick the best athletes available, regardless of position. Working so far.

  21. Andrew

    January 28, 2010 at 2:22 pm

    Edumacate the fools so they can cry about losing people. Give me Ruiz over 1000000 Marsons. Stooges.
    But he hits 50 homers! But you are in last ( Piazza)
    I let the people who run the team deal with it.
    Lee trade OK 100%

  22. Griffin

    January 28, 2010 at 2:52 pm

    Keith Law rates J.C. Ramirez the 101st best prospect in baseball, which is a lot better than I thought.

    “Juan Ramirez, RHP, Philadelphia: Ramirez was prospect No. 101 this year. I wrote up one more player than I needed for the rankings, and he was the guy I cut to make the final 100. Ramirez came to the Phillies from the Mariners in the Cliff Lee trade, in which the Phillies added three prospects to replace the three they dealt to Toronto for Roy Halladay. Ramirez is slightly ahead of Phillippe Aumont — who was also involved in that trade — and has a better chance to work as a starter, whereas the Mariners already felt that Aumont’s future was in the bullpen. Ramirez has No. 2 starter stuff if he shows he can stay in the rotation; his fastball is up to 96 mph and he’ll sit 91-94 with some glove-side run, and he shows an above-average slider at 77-80 with a very sharp break. His changeup is rudimentary, and he likes to go to the slider in changeup situations. So far he hasn’t missed as many bats as a guy with his raw stuff should miss, with most of that trouble coming from left-handed hitters. He’s very skinny, listed at 6-foot-3, 175 pounds, and his arm slot is just below three-quarters, both of which would point toward a relief role. In his favor, he was just 20 in 2009, pitching in a great hitters’ park in High Desert, and should get to move to a saner environment in Reading in 2010 to show whether he projects as more than just a very good reliever.”

  23. Griffin

    January 28, 2010 at 2:57 pm

    and for psujoe, Michael Saunders is 74th on Keith Law’s list while Gillies and Aumont aren’t ranked.

  24. Griffin

    January 28, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    Quentin Berry is a non-prospect. He won’t even make the Phillies top 25 prospects.

  25. Chuck

    January 28, 2010 at 3:10 pm

    And we’re spending this much time talking about Keith Law….Why???

  26. George

    January 28, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    Looking at lists always leads me to wonder how much actual scouting the compilers actually did. I’m sure that Keith Law and others haven’t made trips to dozens of minor league stadiums to view hundreds of minor league games. These lists are probably put together by consulting a few favorite scouts and looking at some statistics. They can be biased; they can be inaccurate for all kinds of other reasons.

    If the Phils’ scouting department wants a specific player, they probably have actually seen the guy and can maybe make better judgements. These lists are useful from a fan’s perspective, but major league scouts aren’t going to rely solely on lists. Let’s be thankful for that.

  27. Don M

    January 28, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    that might be true.. im just saying what i saw with my own eyes..

    Berry was a difference maker in the Eastern League.. which is a good league, Im not calling on him for All-Star games, just saying he’s a good baseball player

    He’s “young”, to my eyes, on that day.. had very good defensive instincts, and great speed

    plenty of room to grow, even if he’s just someone’s 5th OF later in life, you need them on your team too

  28. Chuck

    January 28, 2010 at 3:24 pm

    I’ve heard good things about Berry…I’ve never seen him play.

    Hopefully, he’ll turn out to be something….having “options” is always good.

  29. Phylan

    January 28, 2010 at 3:28 pm

    By prospect standards Berry is too old – 26 – considering he puts out pretty much league average production in AA. He’d be worth a late-season call up as a pinch runner, but that’s about it.

  30. Phylan

    January 28, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    This is the problem with the whole “I just watch the players” mindset, by the way. Your sample size as a fan is never big enough. I probably watch 145ish Phillies games on TV a year, maybe 7 or 8 more on the radio, but between confirmation bias, unreliable memory (ask any lawyer about how awful eyewitnesses are), and the times I was drinking, I wouldn’t dare make a conclusive player evaluation without consulting the numbers (obviously in the case of the Phillies I know all of the players anyway, but you get the point).

  31. Chuck

    January 28, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    Consulting the numbers is fine….it SHOULD be done..

    All any of us are saying is that it seems like their is too much emphasis on stats…to make conclusive decisions….as opposed to “seeing for yourself”..

    You can get a real feel for a player by watching EVERYTHING he does….every movement…both on and off the diamond.

    Sometimes…by watching a player…you can “just tell” that he’s gonna be something.

  32. Don M

    January 28, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    Right.. but from looking at his numbers.. seeing his speed on paper and in the boxscore

    and then actually watching him create plays in person, on the field, I saw Berry as a productive player

  33. Don M

    January 28, 2010 at 3:49 pm

    A problem with looking too much into the numbers is that it would’ve told you that Chad Billingsley and Clayton Kershaw were/are dominating pitchers

    In reality, they choke when the spotlight gets bright, and neither is anything amazing …

    Kershaw will be, he’s still a kid … but Billingsley’s K-rates had people drooling over him at times.. Im sure his STATS (not to pick on WAR specifically) make him look great.. but when you watch him, you see there is more to it

  34. mikemike

    January 28, 2010 at 4:05 pm

    Phylan you are so right Berry is not a prospect, fast outfielder who cant hit are a dime a dozen. The phillies lead the majors in drafting toolsy fast outfielder, who cant hit. Golson prime example now we have berry, D’MEYERS, james and others, wish they would take some infielders.thats the way to stay good for a long time to be able to replace older players with young ones, case in point if we had a good thirdbase prospect we could have use the extra money for the starter or bullpen. if we had a 412 thousand dollar player at third that would have freed up money.same for the outfield had to go after ibanez and overpaid , if we had a prospect that was ready it would have given us more leverage in other areas to spend.If you think of it no shortstop prospects since 1999 pick of rollins.

  35. Griffin

    January 28, 2010 at 4:14 pm

    Don M, I understand your point about solely relying on stats as opposed to trusting your own eyes. I think every team uses a combination of both.

    and Chad Billingsley is only 25 years old and in 634 career innings has an ERA of 3.55. Let’s give the kid some time before labeling him a choker.

  36. Chuck

    January 28, 2010 at 4:14 pm

    That’s a great e

  37. The Second John

    January 28, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    It says a lot about their farm system that they two significant trades, and still have good prospects.

  38. Chuck

    January 28, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    Thats a great example with Kershaw and Billingsley….

    Kershaw has TONS of talent…but he’s still so young and not seasoned. I have a feeling that he may live up to his potential…not so sure with Billingsley.

  39. Chuck

    January 28, 2010 at 4:20 pm

    Yeah…but you’re always going to be weak in some areas…and will have to resort to FAs to make up a roster. ….at least one that can compete as winners.

  40. Griffin

    January 28, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    Here are 2 questions from a Keith Law chat today:

    “Michael (Philadelphia)
    What do you think of the Phils system below AA ball, I know they have some guys that have high ceilings
    Klaw (1:58 PM) A ton. Most are really far away, but guys like Gose, Valle, James, Hudson, Dugan, and so on are really interesting. Just not really a consideration for a list like this.

    Tom (PA)
    In your opinion, was the half year of Cliff Lee and the four years of Halladay worth it for the Phillies to practically empty their system (besides Brown)?
    Klaw (1:33 PM)Yes.”

    So maybe Keith Law doesn’t hate the Phillies as some people seem to believe.

  41. jrollpatrol08

    January 28, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    ya look…these types of lists arent designed to please everybody. its impossible to truly represent all the young talent in any sort of exact order. it seems the MLB list was more heavy on ‘hitters’ which is why the super fast OF types (gillies, gose) didnt make the cut, and why aumont was listed so far down on the MLB list.

    im still not thrilled about the lee deal. i wanted as bad as anyone the best 1-2 punch that i DEFINITELY would have ever seen in my lifetime as a past and future phillies fan. even one year. i wanted all my eggs in one basket…but im also a fan, not a businessman, so i understand the move for prospects. the hopeful-optimistic type in me says this– the phil mgmt and scouts and player development HAD to see these guys coming from seattle as pretty close (talent/upside wise) as the guys going to TOR for roy. so im hoping for the best. i do think aumont has great pure stuff, but his body type may not allow him to pitch massive innings as a starter. even if the guy goes to a bullpen role, it will definitely be a great alternative to the outrageous 12mil per season that brad lidge gets for the next 2 years. im excited to see this guy pitch.

  42. Jeff

    January 28, 2010 at 5:14 pm

    Sorry but the Phillies made a huge mistake getting rid of Lee. We just don’t have the pitching to win it all. Halladay is great but one pitcher wont do it. Hamels is still up in the air for next season. Blanton is average. Did nothing in the post season. Then who. Should of gotten rid of Blanton and kept Lee. Lee and Halladay wins you the world series. Then you let Lee go at the end of the season. Go after a cheaper free agent pitcher in the off season. Just dont get it. Never will. Not for what they charge to see a game with your family. Phillies just didnt want to spend the money.

  43. Phylan

    January 28, 2010 at 5:18 pm

    Kershaw is dominant and will continue to be. He posted 171 innings with a 2.79 ERA last year. And the numbers tell you why. He struck out almost 10 batters per 9, let up only 0.37 HR per 9 (which is elite). He needs to get his walk rate down a bit, (4.79 BB/9 last year), and his ERA will go up a little bit this year when his BABIP normalizes (.274 in 2009), but he’s a great pitcher. I don’t think you could’ve picked a worse example. This is the hazard of going with anecdotal viewing of the players – you’re thinking of the rough outings he’s had versus the Phillies in recent memory.

    Billingsley is also a bad example – he’s a guy that scouts will look at and tell you he’s going to be dominant, but if you look at the stats for 2009 they’re unimpressive. Walk rate of almost 4 per 9, and 8 strikeouts per 9, and .78 homeruns per 9; the xFIP formula says that your ERA with those numbers should be 4.04, and guess what it was in 2009: 4.03. The stat sees the areas where Chad needs to improve. If you were a GM and looked at those numbers, you might not go crazy, but that’s why you have to use numbers and scouting (and I mean professional scouting) for proper evaluation.

  44. Don M

    January 28, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    “We just don’t have the pitching to win it all…. One pitcher won’t do it”

    I could be wrong, but didn’t Cole Hamles JUST carry us to a World Series not that many year ago … or is that anceint history already?

    “Blanton is average. Did nothing in the postseason.”
    …you mean when he was getting skipped for starts, and placed into an unfamilier bullpen role?

    Jeff.. I think you’re missing the point … they COULD spend more money, but to do so, they would charge more for tickets, etc .

    So they are trying to give you a competitive team, and still give you a chance to take your family to see a game ….. Instead of one-or-the-other .. they have done a GREAT job of giving us BOTH for the past few years… and they are trying to keep that going

  45. Don M

    January 28, 2010 at 5:35 pm

    I’m thinking of the rough outing they’ve had against the Phillies ….. true

    I’m thiking of their lack of heart (they’ll get a pass cause they’re young).. but its the choke under pressure factor, C-U-P

    “CUP” ..only I haven’t seen a formula to predict 2010 CUP numbers yet.. hopefully next week, or at least by mid-February those numbers will be out

  46. Chuck

    January 28, 2010 at 5:40 pm

    If Kershaw is so “dominant”….then maybe the Dodgers would have faced the Yankees in the World Series..

    Game 1 he lasted 4.2 innings…5 earned runs…5 walks…..1 HR allowed.

    Game 5 he came in in relief….lasted 2.0 innings….2 ER….1 HR..

    He probably shouldn’t have started Game 1…that’s where Torre made his mistake..he shouldn’t have been put into that situation.

    Game 5 he basically crumbled under pressure (I was there…it was amazing!!)

    I think Clayton Kershaw has TONS of talent…and a lot of potential to be a very good pitcher…but please don’t call him dominant..he’s not there yet.

    Maybe that’s anecdotal…the fact that I am using the NLCS as an example…but it’s a good example..

    Dominant pitchers don’t choke like that…twice…in one series.

  47. Phylan

    January 28, 2010 at 5:43 pm

    That’s what I’m saying – a 2 game sample size is completely worthless. Not only that, but all this “choker” and “heart” business is sportswriter jargon. You could look at 2 games in any guy’s career and say he choked or didn’t have the heart or whatever.

  48. Chuck

    January 28, 2010 at 5:45 pm

    Don…I just realized in reading your post that I used CUP too….not realizing your “choke under pressure” phrase..

    I used “crumbled under pressure”

    I think CUP is soon to be a much sought after stat..

  49. Chuck

    January 28, 2010 at 5:46 pm

    But it doesn’t make him a “dominant” pitcher..

    A “dominant ” pitcher can handle the pressure of the NLCS

  50. Manny

    January 28, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    Kershaw IS dominant… just not against the Phillies. If anyone in the world of baseball has a biased view of that guy, it’s us Phillies fans! He’s a SUPERB pitcher. Still young… but he’s for real.

  51. Chuck

    January 28, 2010 at 6:13 pm

    He is superb…any manager would love to have him on his staff..

    I’m just saying that the guy choked…twice…in the same series.

    I would hold off before I labeled him “dominant”

  52. Jeff of Nova

    January 28, 2010 at 6:18 pm


    I also think the whole ticket price is a bad grype. Cause the Phillies are at their pinnacle of popularity right now and could jack the prices up to an unreasonable pice and someone will pay it cause it is the NL Champs. So I appreciate that the Phils are not running its fans through the gutter

  53. Jeff

    January 28, 2010 at 6:32 pm

    Your telling me you would rather have 3 years of Blanton then 1 year of Lee. Possibly the greatest 1 2 punch in baseball. Halladay and Lee. That would be great. Blanton is a 4th starter on most teams. Then you let Lee go and sign with another team. Stupid contract to Moyer. What a waste. The Yankees would of kept both. It doesnt happen in a lifetime that you get those two guys on your team. They didnt want to give Drabek away last season. They made a great deal for Lee and everyone was happy after he pitched well. Then you go out and give away another three minors for Halladay including Drabek. Should of done it then. Cost less. Lee is a Philly a guy.

  54. George

    January 28, 2010 at 6:45 pm

    MLB scouts don’t evaluate players by a two-game sample. Kicking around Kershaw and Billingsley for their two playoff performances is pretty silly. Even someone as playoff dominant as John Smoltz lost a few games. Hamels pretty much stunk in the playoffs this year, too, even though he made the opposition look sick in 2008. Sometimes losing is not due to “choking,” but to having a bad day. Lets see what the future holds for Kershaw and Billingsley before we start labeling.

    “CUP” is only protection for an important part of a person’s anatomy. It’s not a stat I’d rely on.

  55. George

    January 28, 2010 at 7:01 pm

    On most teams, Blanton is higher than a fourth starter. On some, like Washington or Pittsburg he’d be number two.

    Look back a bit, Jeff. Blanton was the opening day pitcher for Oakland a few years ago.

    Sure, it may have been nice to have kept Lee. But it wasn’t going to happen. GET OVER IT!

    The Phils still have Hamels, too. Have you forgotten he’s won in double figures every complete season he’s pitched?

  56. The Second John

    January 28, 2010 at 8:20 pm

    Do you realize that we are not the Yankees? We don’t have unlimited money. You have to realize that Cliff Lee and Halladay wasn’t going to be on the same team together. That would cost them too much money, and too many prospects. Just be happy we got rid of 1 year of Cliff Lee and some prospects, for 3 years of Roy Halladay, and some prospects.

  57. Chuck

    January 28, 2010 at 8:58 pm

    Nobody is “kicking Kershaw and Billingsley around”. I actually think Kershaw is an very good pitcher with a lot of potential. But he was labeled a “dominant” pitcher… he can be at times, I suppose..

    I just wouldn’t necessarily call him “dominant” though. He didn’t show that in the playoffs. He has a ways to go before that’s a safe term for him.



    Lee is not a “Philly ” guy.

    He didn’t want to stay here bad enough…Three years at 20mil per wasn’t good enough for him…so he moved on.

    That’s his right…he wants CC Sabathia-type money. The Phillies weren’t going to give it to him.

    The best thing was to deal him while they could still get back some decent prospects.

    If you like him so much…and are so disgusted with the Phillies…feel free to root for the Mariners.

  58. WFC010

    January 28, 2010 at 11:52 pm

    And the Mariners are fairly unlikely to sign Lee for a long-term contract as well, although I suppose anything is possible. Of course if all he cares about is getting the most money, he’ll join his buddy CC in New York anyway.

  59. mikemike

    January 29, 2010 at 7:31 am

    Jeff forget it people here work for the phillies. Anyone who wants to win would love to have lee and halliday for a year. what a 1-2 punch. but Don worries he cant afford to go and others just kiss the phillies ass nomatter what they do. Two stinking championships in onehundred and 30 someyears. I want a another world series and lee is a better option than contreas or blanton or moyer or happ to get us there. After this year you take the two first round choices and use the 9 million to get good choices, hard to sign highschool kids or a good international player. now don will tell you only 30 percent make it and others will tell you how great we scout, a million different excuses. But to me you go all out to win or get out of the business. If you own a team and are committed to win you do whatever it takes. This city will pay to see a winner , we proved that by the attendance the last two years. In this day and age you can really get some good kids out of the draft who wont take long to make a impact if you spend the money. Porcello is the prime example. already in the majors and starting, but it took money to buy him out of his college committment, the phillies have failed to do that as I have pointed out before, joe saunders of the angles wanted 75,000 to more to sign they wouldnt do it. he is a nice starter, 4 pick in last draft gibson same thing, workman this years draft out of texas, wanted more to sign they wouldnt he will be a top ten pick.This years starters are scary if hamels doesnt come back we wont win plain and simple but if we had lee we would have the insurance if hamels fails.

  60. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 8:09 am

    Here we go…”People here work for the Phillies”..”just kiss the Phillies ass no matter what they do”

    Just because I and a few others can see the value in the Lee trade…it’s once again assumed that we work for the Phillies…and that we are kissing their asses..

    I think all of us would loved to have had Lee and Halladay for a year.. The excitement of that would have been great for any fan.

    I really don’t want to re-hash all of what happened and the reasoning behind it…

    mikemike, Jeff…you guys are smart enough to know all that by just disagree…and that’s cool. No problem.

    But it’s time to MOVE ON, fellas.. seriously…

    If you can’t just be happy that the Phillies are a better team today than they were the day the WS ended….then I really don’t know what else to say.

    Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Happ, Moyer/Contreras/Kendrick….I’ll take my chances with that rotation any day.

    And as far as ticket prices…”This city will pay to see a winner, we proved that by the attendance the last two years.” ….

    …Thats’s true. But do you really want the people that having been buying a lot of those tickets…the average “Joe Schmoe fan”….to not be able to go because prices are too high??

    Do you want Citizens Bank Park filled to the brim with “Yankee-type” fans…the ones that have no heart…and are just at the game becasue it’s “hip” or “cool”…and couldn’t care less about the Phillies??

    If ticket prices…and everything else…go up so much…because of skyrocketing payroll…then that’s what will happen.

  61. The Dipsy

    January 29, 2010 at 8:34 am

    Alright look. Are we better today than we were the day the season ended? Yes. Would we have EVEN better with Cliff? Yes. So….look at it this way. Its like a Chinese restaurant. Pick one:

    1) Keep Cliff for one year ONLY and keep your stud prospects ( don’t believe that bull that he was gonna sign the extension);

    2) Have Halladayfor 4 years and Lee for one year and decimate your farm system;

    3) Have Halladay for 4 years and replace stud prospects with “high middling” prospects?

    Now, when you look at it in black and white like that, and reading the recent stuff about the prospects we got, which is encouraging, if you made me choose I would have to choose (3). Which is what Ruben chose.

    Maybe the disconnect here, if there is one, is that Ruben felt, and could be right, that Seattle’s prospects that we traded for are actually better than we initially thought they were. Phillipe Aumont, if he did not have that arm trouble last year, which is not supposed to be reccurring, would have been regarded as a flat out top 20 stud this year. Gillies stats speak for themselves. Ramirez is one of those “space cadet” (hi Wheels) young guys with great stuff that doesn’t know, and may never know, how to pitch. But at least he’s got the stuff.

    I am starting to feel better and better about this deal every day.

    The Dipsy

  62. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 8:47 am

    Cliff Lee WASN’T gonna sign the extension….because it was only for 3 years..

    As far as the prospects…I think Ruben and his people did enough homework on these three guys to feel pretty comfortable in making the deal

    Like I said yesterday…whether you like “this list” or “that list”…”this ranking” or “that ranking”…. the point is that they are good enough to be on SOME list(s)…

    It’s not as if Ruben just threw three darts (blind-folded) and the three darts just happened to fall on Aumont, Gillies and Ramirez.

  63. bfo_33

    January 29, 2010 at 9:10 am

    Mikemike, I don’t know you, but you are obviously a longtime, very passionate Phils fan. Right now, you are starting to sound like the guy who won the lottery, but is bitching about the taxes. All in gets a quick buzz from casual fans, but proof is in the Marlins, Diamondbacks that it is not a way to run an org long term. Ruben hasn’t been perfect, but appears to be doing a nice job balancing the short and long term.
    I love going to different stadiums, try to take at least one road trip per year. Go to a Red Sox game – the biggest crowd response is to Sweet Caroline. Yankee & Dodger stadiums are even worse. They’ve priced the average fan out. On the other hand is Baltimore, which in my mind is the nicest stadium of all (plus they have Guinness on tap). There are more opposing fans that Orioles fans (even for the LAA – couldn’t figure that one out). Philly and Stl are the models – great stadiums, competitive teams, comparatively reasonable prices. I’d like it to stay that way, even if it means we only have a very good pitching staff vs a great one.
    This post has NOT been sponsored by the Phillies or an associated organization.

  64. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 9:35 am

    Sad case with Baltimore…Camden Yards is a GREAT park…it used to be packed full of O’s fans…but now they are so pitiful that the opposing fans just take over..

  65. Don M

    January 29, 2010 at 9:48 am

    “but Don worries he cant afford to go”

    True.. lets take an average ticket, sections I like are:
    210 = $33
    315 = $34

    so If I take the wife to a game… its $66-68 just for tickets… before that nice little service charge, etc .. so we’ll say $75 .. parking will be up again, probably $15, but for this arugment, we’ll call it $10

    $85 so far… $7 beers, $5 sodas.. we’ll say we each have one of each.. that’s another $24 …. Chicken Fingers & Fries $7.50 … a Hot Dog and Pretzel $7.50 …

    $85 + 24 + 15 = $125 ish …. for a baseball game

    Yea.. I worry about not being able to go to a lot of games if the prices keep going up

    People act like the Phillies pulled a Rolen-trade here… They didn’t abandon a star, and kill any chance of a winning team in the process. They had to empty their farm system to get Roy Halladay… and they tried to get some prospects back BECAUSE they want to keep winning

    a 2010 World Series title doesn’t mean jacksh!t if we would be a sub.500 team for the next 5-10 years after that … they are trying to make sure that doesn’t happen

  66. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 9:57 am

    Exactly…but there are some on here that would gladly accept 5 or even 10 years of lousy sub .500 baseball for another WS title.

    Fortunately…with what Ruben has done…we won’t have those 5 or 10 years…AND we have a legitimate shot at that title.

  67. The Original Chuck P

    January 29, 2010 at 10:16 am

    I’m happy with the end result… if Rube could have kept Lee here for 2010 that would have been euphoric but I’m convinced that an extension wasn’t going to happen. So we had two options: 1. kill the 2010 budget, neglect the farm and collect two draft picks when Lee walks or 2. trade Lee to get back some prospects and free up some cash in the budget to account for unexpected needs in 2010. I would have probably went with option 1 and maybe we could have gotten better prospects but that’s the riskier of the two options, for sure… the fact of the matter is that we have enough with Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Happ and Moyer/Kendrick so extending the budget and neglecting the farm would have been problematic… and Rube was able to lock up this rotation for the next three years at least.

    Happy to see Aumont and Gillies on this somewhat “ho-hum” list. A few players I’m excited about: Jon Singleton, Trevor May and Freddy Galvis… gonna miss Taylor/Drabek but I’m sure the Doc will have the right prescription for my heartache.

  68. Pingback: Odds and Ends: Taylor, Lowry, Wang | Phillies Nation

  69. The Dipsy

    January 29, 2010 at 10:19 am

    Don – Here’s an idea. Get the cheaper tickets, the $15 jobs.

    2 x 15 = 30.

    If you live around the city take public transportation, but if you have to take the car, park far away and walk it. Parking = 0

    A game lasts three hours. With the commute, call it 4 1/2. Maybe you could have a big meal before the game? Or if you have to eat, bring a napsack with some chips, or better yet, energy bars. I think they let you in with bottled water. Thats $5 at the Wawa.

    So right now we are at $35.

    Lets leave $15 for miscellaneous stuff that I can’t think of right now. Now that’s $50. Some would consider that a great value. I think that the problem here may lie in the fact that, not only do you wanna see a baseball game, but you also wanna do it in the lap of luxury. My advice: Downsize it a bit. I sense that there is an unwillingness on your part to move from one of the sections that “you like” to one that is more cost efficient. Have a few beers before the game.

    I think you will find that that if you follow my suggestions and do the numbers, that you will able to got to almost 3 games for your cost of going to 1. Think about it and don’t be so selfish

    The Dipsy

  70. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 10:33 am

    Yeah, damn….210 and 315??? Quit being SUCH a ticket snob.

  71. Don M

    January 29, 2010 at 10:38 am

    trains back to my house at night only run every hour.. so if I miss the one at 10:20 .. im standing around in Suburban Station until 11:20… not home until midnight

    makes it worth the parking..

    Im just giving the realistics of it … of course there are times when I go down and don’t buy concessions, dont bring the wifey, etc..

    But those $15 seats suck.. and its a better view to stay at home and watch on TV

  72. Don M

    January 29, 2010 at 10:44 am

    But that’s part of it… who wants to go to a game, sit in the cheapest possible seats, not have a beer or a hot dog if you want one.. etc..

    People in NY can afford to do that an Yankee stadium.. but “real fans” are being priced out.

    I usually get to 10-15 games a year.. without a ticket plan

    So conservatively, I would say I spend $1,000 on the Phillies every year …. not counting years I’ve traveled to Boston, Chicago, etc. to go see them on the road

    For $1,000 I could also go on an All-Inclusive vacation somewhere… or get in a shore house, etc .. . . If the Phillies became more expensive than they currently are.. Im pretty sure I would have a better tan from doing those other things instead of trying to see the Phillies in person a bunch of times every year

  73. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 10:53 am

    Yeah…I like sitting down on the first level sometimes…early in the year you can get tickets in 115 or 116….for face value… from the Phillies ticket office.

    That’s nice to do once in awhile…spend $60 on a really good seat..

    And the $30 and $40 seats are fine too…

    But those really cheap seats suck….and it’s not all that fun being there if you can’t see sh!t.

  74. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 11:00 am

    The equivalent seat to Sect. 116… Yankee Stadium….is $375.

  75. Don M

    January 29, 2010 at 11:00 am

    Yea im not even talking about anything crazy… 1st base side, 2nd deck.. “GOOD SEATS” in my opinion .. . and they’re expensive

    Phillies were able to rebuild this fan base because unlike the Eagles/Flyers, etc … baseball games are “affordable”

    its also nice that they play 81 home games.. but payroll in baseball is a lot higher than the other sports too

  76. Don M

    January 29, 2010 at 11:06 am

    and the Section 315 seat that I like…

    in Yankee Stadium costs you $80 in advance, $85 on game day

    their sections 310 (our equivalent to 210) is $48 advance, $50 game day

  77. beta sigma shag

    January 29, 2010 at 1:55 pm

    I know he will not read this but I needed to put it out there. Jeff says for what they charge for a game, they could have keep Lee and pay players more, but they don’t want to spend the money,
    I can tell you from experience, Phillies tickets are a lot less expensive then ohter places, epecially the big payroll teams, A ticket to Fenway where you can actually see the game and sit down, cheapest ticket 40-50 dollars, Mets and Yankees, at least 35-40 dollars. I have Sunday package seats in sect 418 and they are pretty good, $23 per game. I also travel and go to baseball games, Washington DC was just slightly less expensive then the phillies, and they are the Nationals.
    I like that I can live in Vermont and afford to take time off work and drive down to Philly and see 10-15 games a year. I live closer to Boston and NY but can not afford the day trips to either one of those stadiums because of the tickets prices

  78. beta sigma shag

    January 29, 2010 at 1:57 pm

    Chuck I have to disagree, sect. 418 3rd row I can see the whole game, better then some second level seats at fenway.

  79. Chuck

    January 29, 2010 at 4:07 pm

    Yeah…those 400 seats between the bases are pretty good..

  80. Philsgirl

    January 29, 2010 at 11:45 pm

    Spoiler: Ranting. Lee. Length. Potential negativity. And, not to pick out anyone in particular, love ya all, just using some of your quotes as examples of differing opinion, and your posts are memorable (not a bad thing, that’s the whole point of this site).

    It’s funny how practically everyone who posts, no matter what their opinion, qualifies their statements with “of course we’d rather have Lee, too.” Chuck., you say “I think all of us would loved to have had Lee and Halladay for a year.. The excitement of that would have been great for any fan.”,” and in a previous thread, Don M. says “like everyone, (italics mine) I would have LOVED (capitalization yours) to see how that starting rotation would have looked..” But hey, guys, that starting rotation wasn’t just some hypothetical fantasy baseball “Halladay Lincecum Greinke” rotation, it was in our franchise hands, we know that now. It could have been. And according even to many impartial analysts outside the Phillies system, as previously discussed, should have been.

    Now, in this thread, again we’re mixing apples and oranges. If the trade wasn’t a salary issue, most would agree an ace like Lee was a bargain at 9M for a year, especially *this* year. If the Lee trade was even partially a salary issue, I’m pretty sure that money-wise the 1 mil Phils saved having 3rd-4th starter Blanton over Lee this year won’t yield $$ for a fix for a bullpen that is pretty much in shambles. We still have essentially only one pitcher (Halladay vs. Lee) that can go full or close-to-full games which doesn’t much help matters there, or necessarily even equal more wins at all. And if Lee was a farm-replenishment deal (which usually seems to be concensus on this forum), it still seems less than ideal given the prospects we got back.

    See, I’m still a firm believer in the old adage a proven bird in the pre- and post-season is worth two (or three) in the bush league. No one’s going to convince me that 1) our vastly improving the chance to win the division for the 4th straight year, possibly go to the World Series for three straight years, and maybe even win the World Series for the second time in 3 years could be defined as the Phils “blowing their load,” (Don M.’s words in a diff. thread, definitely not mine) unless I’m somehow missing the point of the game of baseball, 2) losing this chance was worth the magic (sarcasm implied) “bullets” of Gillies, Ramirez, and Aumond right now, this year, on the farm, or 3) that we still won’t be watching Utley, Halladay, – now Victorino (which BTW I sincerely hope doesn’t equal losing Werth) – and a “bunch of scrubs” (from same post from Don M.) even with those magic bullets, after 2011. I know, I know, I need to trust our scouts…

    I get backed up on reading these threads at times, so to Don M., I had been meaning to ask you earlier, by your term “watching winning baseball for the next 5 years”, did you mean getting to the post-season? Or having a winning record? Or not being the late-90’s Phils? By which definition do you think these three prospects equals “winning baseball” vs. “losing baseball” going forward? But later you said “I would rather have the middle of the road team, with the chance to make the playoffs and the World Series that I could go to see 10-15 times a year.. instead of a WS winner that I couldn’t afford to ever watch in person.” If you’d rather have a “middle of the road” team (which in my mind by definition implies a very small chance to make the playoffs and the WS) vs. a WS title, we’re in basic philosophical disagreement. Then above Chuck says “there are some on here that would gladly accept 5 or even 10 years of lousy sub .500 baseball for another WS title, ” implying that anything above a losing record for the next 5-10 years is worth a title. You say “fortunately…with what Ruben has done…we won’t have those 5 or 10 years..of lousy sub .500 baseball” AND we have a legitimate shot at that title,” Again, I’m not convinced that Aumont, Gilles, or Ramirez equals not having those 5-10 years, or even that any of them ever makes a decent major league showing let alone makes or breaks a shot at the title. As farm-system prospects, I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t think they’re the next Rollins, Utley, Howard.. But again, I know, I know, I need to trust our scouts…

    Now in this thread it seems like the entire issue is coming down to ticket prices. Oh please. First of all, I fail to see how the Lee “for prospects not salary” trade affects ticket prices this year. What about the increased ticket sales from sold-out games both when Halladay and when Lee start, or the increase in merchandising from yet another WS winning season. Second, I’d rather sit home a few extra times and watch us win it all again and join in a parade for close to free than sit in the stands with the oh-so-satisfying knowledge that we’ve already restocked the farm in exchange for maybe the one extra player who could have been most instrumental in taking us all the way in the next 5-10 years, and watch us blow the last chance of making it to October in person. And yes, I’m a true fan. My family just never had the money to go to many games, and some of my favorite Phillies games were heard over the transistor radio with Ashburn and the great HK at the mike. Memories of what your team accomplished at those times it was at its best (see “blowing their load”) do (and usually have to) carry you through lots of years of relative mediocrity and rebuilding. I’d say the opportunity to look back at a real dynasty period and possibly a 3rd ring in the process would have made a pretty darn good memory.

    But don’t worry, folks, looks like we can look forward to watching us try to be “contenders” again – unfortunately apparently sooner rather than later – all you want in the next 5-10 years and get to tell your kids/grandkids all about the year that actually could have been. If losing a starting rotation like we did to add these particular prospects means the difference between “watching winning baseball in the next 5-10 years” and was truly accomplished by this trade – I just don’t see it. But I must have missed Crystal Ball Promotion Day at CBP, ‘cause I couldn’t afford the tickets.

  81. ZJH

    January 31, 2010 at 8:39 pm

    I am as big a Phils fan as anybody and I live in NYC. I went to all three inter-league games at “the Stadium” and 3 World Series games (gms 1 and 2 in the Bronx). I can tell you without a doubt, there were very, very few true Yankees fans that were in attendance. I was embarrassed for them. So much so that I could have seen us taking game 2 after schooling them in game 1 and taking them out in 5. They had no heart absolutely whatsoever and barely got involved in the most pivotal moments.

    FYI: RAJ is doing a phenomenal job and our Front Office and scouting dept knows more about the Blue Jays and Mariners farm systems than they do bc Gillick has a sustained trust and popularity with those two franchises. They both have new GM’s that are wet behind the ears looking to make moves for appearances.

    Another thing nobody talks about: Cliff Lee just pitched 50 more innings this season than any other year in his career. He is prone to “off years” that make Cole Hamels 2009 like downright stellar. Who by the way pitched over 50 innings more than any other year in his career in the 2008 run. See the scary pattern

    Also, if we are in the same position in 2010 as in the last 3 yrs come August, those prospects in the Lee deal will come in handy in getting us another starter or some sorely needed bullpen help (which will be a weakness this year). Amaro is really thinking 2 or 3 moves ahead at all times.

  82. Vern Badal

    July 9, 2010 at 1:47 am

    What the hell? Le Bron in Miami? This sucks.

  83. Celena Clonch

    July 9, 2010 at 5:06 am

    This nigga bout to be exposed to a different breed of hoes.. po’ Savannah.. (and CB’s ole’ lady from that alternative post). I bet the groupies are making plans to relocate to Miami as we speak!

  84. Santa Clara Doctors

    July 27, 2010 at 11:09 pm

    interesting Lebro is a very talented athlete.

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