Phillies Swap Arbitration Figures – Phillies Nation

Phillies Swap Arbitration Figures

The report has come in from CSN Philly’s Jim Salisbury, and the three remaining arbitration-eligible Phillies have let their demands be known. The team has also submitted its proposed figures for each player.

There is still plenty of time for one-year or even multi-year deals to be worked out before hearings begin in February, something Salisbury says the Phils are looking to accomplish with Victorino above all others.

Here are the reported figures exchanged:

Joe Blanton, SP: $10.25 million. Team offers $7.5 million.

Carlos Ruiz, C: $2.5 million. Team offers $1.7 million.

Shane Victorino, CF: $5.8 million. Team offers $4.75 million.

What do you think? Is Blanton asking too much? Is now the time to work on multi-year deals for Ruiz and Victorino, or even Blanton?

UPDATE (Wednesday, 8:00 PM):’s Todd Zolecki reports that contract talks have begun for all three of the remaining arbitration-eligible players. Both one-year and multi-year deals are reportedly in the works, but details are unclear as to what length each player is discussing.



  1. The Dipsy

    January 19, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    Oh, Joe, Joe, Joe. Your agent is crazy. Shane and Carlos will settle. Now how does that 2y/11m contract look for Shane?

    The Dipsy

  2. Maniac

    January 19, 2010 at 5:17 pm

    Blanton must be crazy asking for 10.25 mil. This makes me wonder why Blanton wasn’t traded if Cliff’s salary this year was just 9 mil. That makes no sense. Ruiz and Vic will work out multi-year deals, and the prices look decent to me. I’d move Blanton and look to sign another starter in the 3-5 mil range.

  3. Touchdown74

    January 19, 2010 at 5:18 pm

    My thoughts are we have to bolt down Ruiz (shipped out 2 C prospects already) and Victorino. I think we can let Blanton walk as I do not think he is worth $10.25M per.

  4. Manny

    January 19, 2010 at 5:19 pm

    WOW.. Blanton… holyyyy crapp.. he wants to make more money than Cliff Lee… HAHAH

    I think the team shouldn’t negotiate this one. Team should win, hands down.

    Thumbs up for Victorino and Chooch: Both sides should be able to work out a deal with each of them.

  5. Amanda Orr

    January 19, 2010 at 5:20 pm

    I don’t know what’s funnier: Blanton asking for $10 million or the Giants only offering Lincecum $8 million. Imagine if Blanton, and the Giants win, and how messed up that would be.

  6. Havoc

    January 19, 2010 at 5:23 pm

    Don’t think we have to worry about that Amanda. I’d imagine given the differences Carlos and Shane should be able to come to an agreement, but I think Joe’s gonna be dissappointed. If he had said 8 million it might have been possible.

  7. joe

    January 19, 2010 at 5:24 pm

    while he isn’t worth 10 mil. i can see why they offered it.

    good clubhouse guy, decent in postseason, was great for pretty much all of the 2nd half of last year.

    lock down shane and chooch though

  8. Bob in Bucks

    January 19, 2010 at 5:29 pm

    Not only is Blanton crazy but I think the Phillies offer is very generous. OR are we all wrong? Lee was underpaid but is a #3 worth 8.5MM? Either way, Blanton certainly appears on the high side.
    As for Victorino and Ruiz they should settle for one year contracts. Ruiz needs to put one solid year together. He is OK but not great. I also need to see one more year out of Victorino. We have a kid to come up. Bigger question is who do you want to keep – Victorino or Werth? In any case, the numbers are reasonable either player or Phillies.

  9. Paul Boye

    January 19, 2010 at 5:40 pm

    I would personally only like to see Vic signed to a two-year deal at about that $5-6M average per year, but I’d prefer just a one-year deal for 2010. If Dom Brown is ready by 2011, Werth can play center while Brown slides in at right. Werth has actually shown to be a pretty good CF defender in 550+ ML innings, so defense probably wouldn’t be an issue. But that’s a big “if.”

  10. joe

    January 19, 2010 at 6:06 pm

    Brown is taking Werth’s spot..

    theres no way the Phils have enough money to keep Werth..
    he’ll be in store for a major pay day

    Ruiz is Ruiz…thats what youre gonna get dude.

    he’s not great with the bat, we know this…

    but what he does for the staff, you can’t teach that..

    I’d take Chooch any day

  11. Keith E

    January 19, 2010 at 6:06 pm

    Blanton is out of his ****ing mind!
    With that said there is nothing wrong with asking. I want to see Chooch get a nice raise. His playoff production alone is worth $1 mil. (see Matt Stairs). When he and Lidge presented Charlie with the WFS game ball it showed a lot of class too.
    GO PHILS!!!

  12. WFC010

    January 19, 2010 at 6:07 pm

    Blanton should be let go, he is asking for too much money for a guy who really isn’t anything that special. He’s a decent pitcher to be sure, but not worth anywhere NEAR $10 million. Ruiz and Victorino are worth decent raises, but Blanton really isn’t worth anywhere close to what he’s asking for.

  13. WFC010

    January 19, 2010 at 6:10 pm

    And hey, maybe Amaro can find some way to convince the Giants to trade Lincecum away for some package including Blanton. Not likely at all, but come on…Lincecum for only $8M is a HUGE steal, and Fat Joe wants over 10 million?


  14. Phylan

    January 19, 2010 at 6:11 pm

    You can’t let Blanton go – the non-tender deadline is passed. I’m beginning to think they should’ve NT’d him on December 12th. The reason they didn’t trade him is because nobody wanted him, given his expected 2010 salary, and it looks like they were right. $7.5 or $10.25, he’s going to be overpaid.

  15. The Second John

    January 19, 2010 at 6:14 pm

    No way Blanton should be paid more than Lincecum. His is definitely out of his mind asking for that much money. Chooch and Vic seems like they’ll work a deal out.

    The huge disadvantage about Domonic Brown taking Werth’s spot is that he is left handed. Then you would have 4 straight left handed guys in the middle of your lineup with Chase, Howard, Raul, and Brown. That’s why I think that they should do whatever they can do to keep Werth, or sign a free agent that’s has his capability. If they have to get rid of Vic to do that, then do it.

  16. shag beta sigma delta

    January 19, 2010 at 6:16 pm

    give Vic 3 years 16 million see if he takes it, I think that would be a good deal for both sides, especilly if you do not think Wreth will give a discount when his time comes. And Chooch 3 years 6 million. If you can tie these guys up for three years would be huge. I think you can extent Wreth before the end of you year to 12-14 million. I do not see that as pushing the budget too much, I may be wrong I am no math whiz.
    I personally do not like year to year for your catcher or CF they are cornerstones of the D. I do not think you will find a catcher that handles this pitching staff any better than Chooch and he has shown some clutchness(is this a word) at the plate so I think 2-2.5 million a year is a steal.

  17. James Kay

    January 19, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    Werth looks great in center. Werth looks great in any outfield position. Now if he could only break .300, he would be the complete unassailable package.

    For anyone who cares, the Phillies former good luck charm and handyman, Eric Brunlett, was signed by the Nationals to a minor league contract. He will have an opportunity to make the Nationals’ roster out of spring training ready to execute triple plays and score decisive World Series runs while hitting less than .200.

  18. WFC010

    January 19, 2010 at 6:22 pm

    I really don’t want the Phillies to sign a longterm deal with Vic, for the simple fact that we have several minor leaguer outfielders who are just as speedy(if not more) than Victorino, and have the potential to be nearly as good in other categories as well. Werth is irreplaceable to our lineup right now, and I would say he’s the MOST IMPORTANT part of our OF. Brown should replace Ibanez, not Werth.

  19. Paul Boye

    January 19, 2010 at 6:23 pm

    I forgot to qualify this in my comment but it basically goes without saying that my hypothetical of Werth in CF requires that he be locked up past this year.

    And if you had to ask me right now, I don’t think he will be.

  20. shag beta sigma delta

    January 19, 2010 at 6:26 pm

    7.5 million is not too much for Big Joe, I think that is fare. I have a question about arbitration, they have to pick one of the 2 numbers right? So Joe will either get 10.5 or 7.5 there is not in between right? What was Lincecum number he gave to the Giants, or did he sign for 8 million?

  21. shag beta sigma delta

    January 19, 2010 at 6:30 pm

    If you can sign Vic for even 2010 and ’11 without it tying their hands on Wreth I think you do that. IMO most of these prospects in the outfield could be brought up as Platoon guys in ’11 and start in ’12

  22. GARY

    January 19, 2010 at 6:30 pm

    Carlos Ruiz is entitled to a raise but he only made $400,000 last year so his price his too high. Victorino`s asking price is more than fair. As for Blanton he is out of his 265 pound fat mind. The Phillies offer is more than fair. Either way he will be making alot for a #3 starter.

  23. Griffin

    January 19, 2010 at 6:41 pm

    I hope the Phils don’t sign Blanton long-term. He was an asset when he wasn’t making a ton of money but he’s losing value now that he’ll be making upwards of $7mil. Let him leave after ’10 and use the money elsewhere.

    Unfortunately, I don’t see how the Phils are going to be able to re-sign Werth. Werth will get at least $12mil per year on the free agent market.

  24. Havoc

    January 19, 2010 at 6:42 pm

    Blanton deserves a raise, but I’d tend to agree with the fils that 7.5 to 8mil is the correct range. He’s as good as other free agents that got those numbers this year.

  25. Pat Gallen

    January 19, 2010 at 6:45 pm

    Surprised Vic went so low. VERY surprised Joe went that high. No way he’s winning that. The Phillies have to feel like they will win that one.

  26. John

    January 19, 2010 at 6:49 pm

    Take Blanton to Arbitration good god…that man is crazy. If Ruben pays him that amount he should be fired on the spot.

  27. WFC010

    January 19, 2010 at 6:54 pm

    Blanton should have been non-tendered after the season ended. For a guy who’s really just an above average(but little more) pitcher, he sure asks for a lot more money than he is worth.

  28. The Dipsy

    January 19, 2010 at 7:01 pm

    Joe Blanton is an above average pitcher. Someday he will make 10m a season. Just not this season. How many guys can you find that can pitch 200 innings with an ERA under 4.00? In CBP no less. If he were pitching in Petco he would be 15-8, 3.38. But he’s not. Lets give the guy some credit.

    The Dipsy

  29. PhxPhilly

    January 19, 2010 at 7:09 pm

    Blanton must be hoping he can settle “in-between’ with the Phillies. At this point the Phillies know they are going to lose him after this season and should not even try to negotiate. Who cares if we hurt his feelings, he is pitching for a new contract not for the team.

    Ruiz should probably never earn more than $3M per year. He is an average starting catcher. For cost certainty (and lack of depth) I think they should try to get a 3 year $8M (1.75, 2.5, 3.25) contract with an option year at (.5 buyout) 5M.

    Victorino could probably earn about $10M as a unrestricted free agent. Since he is still in arbitration he will not make that much but he is likely to win his case. The Phillies may be able to get 3yr at $19M (5, 7, 9) if he is willing to sacrifice potential earnings for security. Without power or high OPB he is replaceable. Speed guys do not get big $. {I really wish they would have tried to sign him to a 5yr ~$25M contract last year (3,4,5,6,7) because at worst he would be an outstanding 4th OF.} He may also be a guy who makes more revenue for the team than expected due to his hustle and Hawaiian background.

  30. PhxPhilly

    January 19, 2010 at 7:17 pm

    Blanton is definitely better than Jason Marquis, John Garland, Jeff Suppan and the like. Agreed that he could earn $10M per year but this is a bad year to try to get it.
    Given these numbers it does seem to make more sense that Ruben was shopping Blanton, just in case the Phillies lost. Regardless, Blanton could have been traded for SOMETHING rather than be non-tendered. It’s just that SOMETHING was probably a lot less than Phillies wanted. (I am guessing teams offered something like a Vance Worley type prospect. Considering what the Phillies gave up (the #2 prospect in their system at the time) for Blanton I’m guessing they will see what he brings this season.) Is it possible Blanton would be a Type A free agent after this season, when would could get a draft pick for him?

  31. George

    January 19, 2010 at 7:28 pm

    Vic must really want to play for Philadelphia, because his asking price is low, and doesn’t allow for much negotiation. I think he’ll get a two year contract, because the Phils’ center field prospects won’t be ready for that long.

    Ruiz is perhaps asking a little too much, and Blanton definitely is. But these are not figures set in stone, they are positions to negotiate from. Neither side really wants to go before the arbitrator. I expect Ruiz to sign about halfway between his and the Phils’ numbers, maybe for two years, but Blanton will have to come down a lot or Amaro will just let him lose out in arbitration. They’d have been fools, though, to non-tender Blanton, because someone would gladly trade for him– just not with the kind of prospects given up for Lee.

    The Giants are lowballing Lincecum, but will undoubtedly come up, again, to avoid the arbitrator. This is Lincecum’s first year of eligibility, and that makes a difference in what he’d be awarded, and therefore, what he should ask for. They’ll most likely work something out before the hearing date.

  32. mikemike

    January 19, 2010 at 7:38 pm

    Let someone try to defend this abortion amaro did, He is offering 8 million to blanton, could have had lee for 9 , anyone think for a million more lee isnt better one year option. Don want to defend this move, anyone.

  33. The Dipsy

    January 19, 2010 at 7:45 pm

    I’m sure that if Amaro could have traded Blanton for Gillies, Ramirez, and Aumond, he would have.

    The Dipsy

  34. Paul Boye

    January 19, 2010 at 7:47 pm


    I wouldn’t expect anything above Type B for Blanton, but anything can happen. We’ve seen career years in contract seasons before.

    But even beyond that, I’m not so sure the Phils even offer him arbitration if he achieves one of those statuses. He’d be too expensive at that point.

  35. George

    January 19, 2010 at 7:56 pm

    I will defend this move, mikemike. Blanton was not going to gain the prospects Lee did. And get your information right! The Phils offered $7.5 million, not $8.

    I don’t care if they have to pay him $8 million. I’ll agree here with The Dipsy. Joe Blanton is above average and will probably make $10 million sometime in the future. Considering the money being thrown around this year for second rate arms, he might even get it now. Randy Wolf has similar win totals, but isn’t the horse Blanton is: $9.5 million. Brad Penny of the questionable arm and bad last two years: $7.5 million. The injury risk Ben Sheets: asking $10-12 million. I don’t feel like looking up what some of the other “talent” (like Marquis) are being paid, but it’s substantial. Most of these arms can’t touch Blanton for doggedness and ability.

  36. mikemike

    January 19, 2010 at 7:58 pm

    Dipsy you must be kidding. amaro lock himself into arb for blanton and lost lee. prospect are just that prospect. lee should never have been move , you want to defend this stupid move by amaro, then you are nuts, he blew it

  37. mikemike

    January 19, 2010 at 8:06 pm

    excuse me defend a stupid move if he doesnt offer arb,he has lee you must be kidding or work for the phillies nut. we are going for a pennant who would you rather have for 9 million lee or blanton. no matter what they do, a nut will try to defend there moves. George I have heard about die hard fans before, but they must have some brains you dont ,prospect a sore arm pitcher a fast outfilder who might not hit and a young not highly regard pitcher who got lit up and i read it 8 or if you somehow are right big deal 7.5 for blantron or 9 for lee . I am in shock how stupid you are to try to make a argument that they are right/

  38. Phylan

    January 19, 2010 at 8:15 pm

    Well if you believe Ruben, even if he had non-tendered Blanton, he still would’ve traded Lee in the wake of the Halladay deal to restock the farm. I don’t particularly buy that, given how he approached Zdurencik and the return they got.

  39. Dan S

    January 19, 2010 at 8:23 pm

    sign ruiz, the phils dont have a catcher of the future
    sign shane to long term but who goes in the philllies current outfield when domonic brown comes knocking?
    don’t sign blanton, there are some good prospects that are close to the bigs, and in the future when his contract runs up, that will free up money for other areas.

  40. Phylan

    January 19, 2010 at 8:23 pm

    To be clear, I do not work for the Phillies nut

  41. The Dipsy

    January 19, 2010 at 8:30 pm

    To be clear, my comment was sarcasm. Of course we would rather have Lee and non tender Blanton. But, you could have gotten SOMETHING for Blanton, just not what Amaro wanted, so that wouldn’t have been necessary.

    The Dipsy

  42. Keystone

    January 19, 2010 at 8:34 pm

    Not trying to say I’d pay Blanton 10.5 million, but I’m sure him and his agent look at Oliver Perez making 12 million for a career line of: in 188 starts posting a 58-64 record and a 4.54 ERA to Blanton’s line of: in 162 starts posting a 63-54 record and a 4.21 ERA.

  43. mikaels19

    January 19, 2010 at 8:44 pm

    cliff lee was not a salary dump it was a move meant to restock the depleted farm system which was left with one top prospect after the original lee deal and the halladay deal. the phillies were well aware that cliff lee’s salary was a bargain and i’m sure if they could have gotten the same return in a trade for blanton the would have done that deal instead. blanton is no slouch. he’s asking for too much and will lose in arbitration. I think he may have lost his negotiating leverage too by asking for so much. I imagine the phillies must feel pretty confident that they will win in arbitration so there isn’t much incentive for them to sweeten the deal and work something out any higher than they have offered unless they want to sign him for multiple years.

  44. The Second John

    January 19, 2010 at 8:46 pm

    “prospect are just that prospect.” Really mikemike? I understand that every prospect doesen’t pan out, but Chase Utley, Ryan Howard, Hamels, and even Cliff Lee was a prospect too. Yes, not all of them work out, but still, you have to have a good farm system to succeed.

    I think that if Durbin got more than 2 million, then Chooch definitely deserves that 2.5 million.

  45. The Dipsy

    January 19, 2010 at 8:49 pm

    Lets not open up that old wound.

    The Dipsy

  46. The Second John

    January 19, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    “prospect a sore arm pitcher a fast outfilder who might not hit and a young not highly regard pitcher who got lit up”

    mikemike, I think the organization that scouted guys like Chase Utley, Cole Hamels, Ryan Howard, and Carlos Ruiz knows a little bit more about scouting players, and predicting their future than you do.

  47. WFC010

    January 19, 2010 at 8:54 pm

    Anyone else finding mikemike as annoying as those Yankees trolls?

    And I am tired of the unfair criticism that keeps getting heaped on Amaro. Sure I don’t like some of the moves he made, or how he made them, but the fact of the matter is the guy does the best he can, with the hand of cards he gets dealt. Would I have loved to keep Lee? Of course, but I also understand the importance of trying to restock the farm system. Amaro tried to shop Blanton, but didn’t like the offers he was given, so he moved Lee instead. Deal with it, and quit whining!

  48. shag beta sigma delta

    January 19, 2010 at 9:05 pm

    I am glad to see the people in here seeing MikeMike’s comments for what they are ignorant. Of course if they could have gotten some decent prospects for Blanton he would have been traded instead of Lee. We all know Lee was cheap at 9 million, unless of course he pitched like he did in with Cleveland. But no one was giving anything for Blanton, if you do not think they tried then you are not very bright.
    My question is can you sign Vic for 2 or 3 years at an average of 5 or 6 million and sign Wreth for 12 or 13 and pay Ryan 20 million and still have a pitching staff?

  49. Malcolm

    January 19, 2010 at 9:17 pm

    Joe Blanton is an underrated pitcher. He is one of the most complete mid-rotation starters in the senior circuit. But damn, 10 million is way too much. He might have doomed himself by asking for that amount. I would have previously expected him to look to sign slightly above or under 8 million, but 10 million will be met with a take or leave it arbitration with the Phillies generous offer. A two-year deal for 17 million would look great.

    Carlos Ruiz deserves a lot more credit and a bit more money. This season he needs to be making more than our middle relievers.

    I think Jayson Werth will walk from Philadelphia in the future.

    Thereafter, signing Shane Victorino to a longer-term contract seems more likely and I like more for the team. Nothing against Werth, he’s one of my favorite Phillies of all-time, but he deserves a massive pay raise when he hits free agency.

    I would love to have Chan Ho Park back, but I know Ruben is looking towards a lefty. At this point, we’re going to work with what we have and hope for the best.

  50. Jeff of Nova

    January 19, 2010 at 10:15 pm

    Blanton was very good last year, his wins do not show cause he had a lot of no decisions cause the bulpen was blowing his games all the time

    Not saying he deserves 10mil but he is underrated. If he had the wins he should have had, he would be asking for 15mil

  51. JeffR

    January 19, 2010 at 10:26 pm

    Yeah, Blanton was so good we had no confidence to even use him in the post-season rotation. He was only an option of last resort because they wouldn’t pitch Lee on 3 days’ rest and thought Happ was better in the bullpen.

  52. Sgt.Schmidt

    January 20, 2010 at 3:23 am

    Shag Beta Sigma:

    You asked a question reguarding whether Blanton or the Phils have to accept either one of the deals of $10.25 or the $7.5

    The way it works is like this….Blanton requested $10.25 this season, and the Phillies countered back with ”We’ll come to an agreement right now if you accept this $7.5”. Now if Blanton doesn’t accept the $7.5, or if they dont come to an agreement then he will have to take the Phillies to an arbitration hearing. In the Arbitrartion hearing a panel of arbitrartion officers or judges (whatever you like to call them) will evaluate and appraise Blantons value. What the Arbitrators say his value is, is set in stone, and either the Phils or Blanton have to bend a little to come to an agreement.

    Blanton is trying to break the bank here, but I have to be honest…When its all said and done I can see Blanton getting around 8.5. If he wins the arbitrartion hearing, and he sticks to his number, the Phils let him walk.

  53. Brian Sr. of CO

    January 20, 2010 at 4:46 am

    Blanton has lost his mind. He will definately not win his arbitration case. They have to choose one of the two, unless they agree before it gets to the hearing. Ryan Howard won his case for 10 Mil in 08 prior to signing a deal, and Lincecum is asking for 13 Mil from the Giants. If you think Blanton will earn mroe money through arbitration that Ryan Howard, you are insane, just as Blanton is. Lincecum on the other hand has the best shot of anyone to win their case.

  54. The Dipsy

    January 20, 2010 at 8:04 am

    Sgt Schmidt – WRONG!

    ONE arbitrator hears the case and MUST pick Blanton’s figure or the teams figure. End of story. In the meantime, the parties are welcome to work on an agreement.

    The Dipsy

  55. Ed R.

    January 20, 2010 at 9:23 am

    The Freak can walk into his arbitration hearing in which he requested 13 mil and plant two Cy Young’s on the table to state his case for him.

    Joe Blanton is going to walk into his arbitration hearing in which he asked for 10.25 mil, and plant nothing on the table because he individually has won nothing…and he expects to win?

    I can understand shooting high in hopes of catching a break, but I think he screwed himself. No arbitrator in their right mind is going to award Blanton 10.25 when guys like Howard get 10 mil, and i don’t know, win a ROY and MVP in consecutive seasons.

    Come on now Joe, you must have hung out with Brett Myers too much because this is just plain dumb.

  56. psujoe

    January 20, 2010 at 9:30 am

    Blanton’s agent is nuts. How about Gagne getting a try out. you never know.

  57. Ed R.

    January 20, 2010 at 9:33 am

    I just read that. I’d give him a shot. Pretty sure he blows now since he isn’t on the juice but you never know. He had a bit of a revival in Texas a few years ago, then he was traded to the Red Sox and it all blew up. He seems like one of those guys who can only be a closer.

  58. Ed R.

    January 20, 2010 at 9:44 am

    So was reading Lookout Landing which is an SBNation blog for the Mariners, in that they had a link to a rather hilarious picture that was put together at the Met’s SBNation blog Amazin Avenue. At this point, even Met’s fan’s are making fun of their team.


  59. Manny

    January 20, 2010 at 10:11 am

    Phillies should try and settle with Blanton before arbitration as long as the figure is below 8MM, in my opinion (way below the midpoint). Anything above that, and they should be better off going into the hearing.

  60. Ed R.

    January 20, 2010 at 10:17 am

    See I wouldn’t even try and settle. No way Blanton will win his case. And since there is no in between in arbitration then the Phillies will win and Blanton will get something much closer to what he deserves in the 7.5 mil the team offered.

  61. George

    January 20, 2010 at 10:17 am

    mikemike is more annoying than the Yankees trolls, because at least those trolls make no claims of being Phils fans. mikemike does. Still, though, he has absolutely nothing good to say about the team and is very ill-informed. When he’s debated, he calls those people debating him stupid, crazy, and any other names he can think of, instead of offering legitimate arguments.

    I will still argue that the front office made the right decision to trade Lee and keep Blanton. Blanton wouldn’t have brought any decent prospects and the team needed those. If mikemike had his way, the Phils would maybe be better this year, but would have nothing after that, and no real way except spending like drunken sailors to get anybody.

    Sure, I’d rather have Lee than Blanton. But Blanton HAS been underrated; he’s not worth $10.25 million, but he’s worth more than most #3 starters, and worth more than some of the money people like Wolf, Penny, and Marquis have already gotten.

    Also, if anyone thinks a first round prospect and a sandwich pick for Lee would be better, as high as the Phils have been placing, any picks would be way down in the order anyway. And if Lee were signed by a low finisher, they wouldn’t even get a first rounder.

    And think about this: Blanton was tied for the team lead in wins in 2009, and came in second in starter’s ERA. He could therefore be considered our #2.

    Lee’s contract was signed when starters weren’t being paid as much, so he was a bargain. As a bargain, the front office was able to get more for him. That’s no longer true. If the Phils chose to replace Blanton’s wins, ERA, and particularly his innings pitched, they’d be hard pressed to do it for anything less than they’ve offered Blanton.

  62. George

    January 20, 2010 at 10:25 am

    I think the Phils should at least make an effort to sign Big Joe. Otherwise, when he loses in arbitration, he might turn into a surly sourpuss and clubhouse pariah. I don’t think they should try very hard, though.

    Concerning Gagne, you LOOK at everybody with stats like his. That doesn’t mean you sign them. He’s probably a dud, but still, you look, in case he has something left.

  63. Ed R.

    January 20, 2010 at 10:37 am

    Well Gagne did say he was willing to accept a non guaranteed minor league contract, if that’s the case I would sign him in a heart beat. If he sucks then cut him.

    As for Blanton, even if he lost his arbitration hearing, and he will if it gets there, I can’t see him developing a bad attitude. He seems like too much of a club house guy for that.

  64. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 10:46 am

    Let’s not open up this whole “Lee” thing again…he was traded…we got some decent prospects…MORE than Blanton would have attracted….so that’s it..

    I do think Blanton …if he continues to pitch like he has…with his age (under 30)…he will get $10 mil at some point….but not this time…

    I don’t think he’s the kind of guy that will “turn into a surly sourpuss and clubhouse pariah.”…he’ll lose…but still will get a raise….who knows maybe the Phillies can work out a reasonable deal for him…which would be fine..


    To comment about what someone earlier said about Brown taking over for Werth….I think it’s more likely that he takes over for Ibanez….hopefully the Phillies work out something with Werth..

    if it comes down to whether they have to choose to keep Werth or Vic…I still think it should be Werth…he’s more versatile.

    But who knows …maybe Vic’s numbers are lower than we all thought originally…and maybe Werth can be convinced of that 4/45 contract that was mentioned the other day..

    That way we keep both…

  65. Don M

    January 20, 2010 at 11:26 am

    They made Blanton available at the Winter Meetings.. and nobody wanted him because they knew he would make about $7.5M this year.. and then as a Free Agent, he’ll commaned somewhere around $10 M per season

    the other guy that we traded was to save some money …AND… to bring in some prospects

    MIKEMIKE… to answer your question, the difference between $7.5 or 8 Million,
    and Lee’s $9 M …. is $1.0 to $1.5 M

    the kind of extra cash that makes a difference when trying to add extra arms to your pitching staff

  66. The Original Chuck P

    January 20, 2010 at 11:26 am

    Ahh the business of baseball… that 2/$11 contact looks pretty good but I still doubt Vic would take it. Next year seems to be the year that Vic-type players get their biggest raises… the year before entering free agency. So he’ll likely settle for something in the $5.5 million range but I would expect him to clear $7 million next year.

    Chooch should settle as well…

    I was worried about Blanton… that one’s probably going to arbitration. Knee jerk is that he’s not worth it but you have to look at comparable situations… it’s tough to find an exact comparison but if you look at guys like Pineiro, Bedard and Jon Garland, none of those guys made over $7.75 million prior to free agency. Blanton is different because he has proven to be one of the most dependable pitchers in baseball. His numbers don’t blow you away but he eats innings and stays healthy… I think he compares well with Vicente Padilla but I don’t know which year he aligns with. At age 29, Padilla was making $9 million but he had been in the big leagues since he was 21… Joe debuted at age 23.

  67. Don M

    January 20, 2010 at 11:32 am

    Blanton was right to ask for $10 M ….. that’s what Free Agent pitchers with his experience and skill set would get

    no he’s not a Free Agent.. but he’s god a decent shot at settling for more than the projected $7.5 M … and even if he goes to arbitration, and losses… he still wins

  68. The Original Chuck P

    January 20, 2010 at 11:53 am

    I think that $7.5 million is reasonable for Joe… that number seems really high. The Phillies probably could have went to the table with $6.75 million and won… the arbitrator has to figure out which number is more reflective of the services provided and go with that one. Joe has not put in enough years of service to make $10 million. In the end, maybe Joe’s just trying to get the Phils to budge from that $7.5 million number. Maybe he thinks that anything above $7.5 million is gravy… Joe should be prepared to take $7.5 million (a $2 million raise) and be happy.

  69. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    Someone on the other thread referred to Joe as a “greedy pig”….for asking for that much.

    I look at it as just shooting high…and expecting to get shot down…but still getting a nice raise…

    It’s called “negotiating”….and anybody would be stupid not to do it..whether it’s with baseball negotiations, selling a house, whatever..

  70. mikemike

    January 20, 2010 at 12:03 pm

    Don this is the point I have tried to make. The phillies had two pitchers, Blanton at 5.5 who would get a raise, and lee at 9 million. If they dont offer arb to blanton let him walk for less or a little more you have lee, maybe even cheaper if blanton wins his case he gets 10 million, the phillies didnt have to offer arb, amaro screw up. Two when we talk about prospects the kids they got for lee arent top flight prospects, aumont was but he has a hip condition, you know I follow the minors, gillies has speed, hit in a hitter league a 26 round choice has some upside but we have four kids like him now in the minors, the other kid is raw, point to be made here let blanton walk no big deal, keep lee, he walks next year take the 9 million and put it into the draft, there are a lot of kids who want money to skip college and will sign and be fast track, Case in point porcello got 7 million out of high school. Detroit has him starting at 20 years old. to george I know how the phillies scouts, you mention utley, hamels, ruiz, utley had no choice but to sign, hamels was pass by teams because of medical condition and attitude, he panned out so far ,but other like him havent case in point Salvery same type cant hit 90 on gun but the kid taken after him porcello who got 7 million is starting alllready, ruiz is one of there cheap signs who is pretty good do y know how many kids they take cheap everyear out of dominian republic, so they hit on one in the last ten years and he isnt a allstar. if you want to debate the minors anytime its my passion, howard was a good chance to take. had big hole in his swing ,just like mayberry who cant play, but remember each year they take 35 kids and if you dont hit on some that is horrible. remember hamels , utley rollins all high choices, victorino they tried to give back and dodgers said no. So you want to call me names thats fine but I follow all aspect of the team and hate this lee move, reminds me of when giles tried to be a gm and trade bowa because of fight between them for Sanberg and shortstop cant remeber his name they got taken, or the schilling trade, schilling had one and half years left on contract, was a number one starter and they took lee a first one bust, a 39 year old 19 game loser, a 35 year old reliever and a drunk padilla for a stud starter a guy who could win you a pennant. As a fan I dont have to kiss there ass when they do stupid moves, like this after all the extra revenue they have taken in the last three years.

  71. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 12:11 pm


    So you think that with “all the extra revenue they have taken in the last three years” that they should just “blow off” the budget??

    Cause that’s sort of what you are insinuating..

  72. Don M

    January 20, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    Cardinals are said to be looking into Chien Ming Wang … he’ll be FILTHY after working with Dave Duncan (of Duncan is still their pitching coach???)

  73. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    According to the Cardinals’ website…Dave Duncan is still the pitching coach…the guy’s a magician.

  74. mikemike

    January 20, 2010 at 12:57 pm

    chuck what are y talking about. I said its either 1.5 million more or less lee versu blanton. in Fact blanton can wind up getting more than lee this year. how is that blowing bugject, just like don said 1.5 could do more , this is a two time pennant and one time world series champ. to go over budject to keep lee , of 1.5 isnt it worth it??

  75. psujoe

    January 20, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    The good news is the Phils have to be thinking they’ll pay Blanton less than previously thought since they’ll get thier number.

  76. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 1:06 pm

    Blanton won’t get more than Lee this year….

    And Lee was traded for prospects…three of them….Blanton would not have fetched that…if he could have…Lee would be here and Joe would be gone..

    But you made the comment about “all the extra revenue” …as if the Phillies are just rolling in the dough…and can afford to do anything..

    We bettered our team…and now have that approximate 1.5 mil to spend on relievers…those “oh by the way type of players” ….the Scott Eyres of the world…guys you can get for cheap….and that can make a big difference.

  77. Don M

    January 20, 2010 at 1:23 pm

    I fully understand the frustration of Blanton at $7.5 M

    vs. thefishthatgotaway for $9 M

    But I don’t understand how people still fail to see their reasoning behind the move.. After the 2010 season, both of those pitchers were going to walk

    So instead of 4 Draft Picks.. we get 3 propsects (two of them pretty highly regarded) plus 2 Draft Picks.

    The Phillies were looking to their future, and realized that they needed some bullets still in the 2012-and beyond Chamber … instead of blowing their load in 2010, and then having a team with Highly Priced Utley, Halladay… with a field of scrubs all around them

    There is no perfect scenario . . .like everyone, I would have LOVED to see how that Starting Rotation would have looked … but unlike most, I stopped dreaming about that the moment Lee got traded

    We’re still the best team in the National League . . .we would’ve had a better chance to win the World Series with Lee, but now we still have very good chance.. AND a better chance at watching winning baseball for the next 5 years

    the teams of the late 90’s were HORRIBLE.. yet we still watched, because we’re Phillies fans. I will watch no matter what.. but I’d rather see us be competitive, than to see us SELL OUT.. out-price the true fans with a sky high payroll, and ticket prices, etc. . .

    so I understand people’s frustrations.. but the good outweighs the bad with the Phillies decisions.. and its really not even close

  78. The Dipsy

    January 20, 2010 at 1:39 pm

    Dear Fellow Fans:

    I think this site is fully of very passionate and informed Phillie fans (with the occasional boner). I appreciate the fact that two reasonably minded people can have two differing points of view. The thing I can’t quite comprehend is why everyone DOESN’T UNDERSTAND THAT THE PHILLIES ARE FILHTY RICH! Stop it. If they wanna keep to a budget, that’s they’re prerogative. What insults me is when they tell us that if they don’t keep to the budget they lose money. Thats laughable. The same holds true for 3/4 of the teams in the league. The Phillies budget could be $200m and they would still rake in a sweet profit. How do I know? Because I have two eyes and a rudimentary understanding of basic math. No more is required.

    The Dipsy

  79. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 1:44 pm

    If the budget was $200 million….most of us wouldn’t be able to afford to go to games..

    Because tickets, beer, hot dogs …and everything else would be something that only the “filthy rich” could pay for.

  80. The Dipsy

    January 20, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    WRONG. You assume that they profits you guys THINK they are missing out on by having a high payroll will so PROFOUNDLY affect the bottom, that the team would have to price the little guy out by jacking up ticket prices, parking, etc. Not the case. Thats how much money I believe they make.

    The Dipsy

  81. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 1:54 pm

    How can you raise the payroll by $60 million ….and NOT have it profoundly affect the bottom??

  82. Don M

    January 20, 2010 at 1:57 pm

    If they raise the payroll.. they’ll raise ticket prices and concession prices, etc..

    no business owners will intentionally LOSE money.. that would be idiotic

    Im very happy with the way things are working with the Phillies now.. I guess some people still want more

  83. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    Every other team has done it….

    Raising payroll…goes hand-in-hand with raising ticket prices..

  84. shag beta sigma delta

    January 20, 2010 at 2:06 pm

    I too like to be able to get my Sunday Package at a real reasonable price. I have to drive down from VT take a day or two off work and drive back. So if I had to pay $50 a ticket to sit in sect. 417 I would not be able to do that and it would suck. So I like the idea of staying inside some budget constraints, yes the front office has to be better to do that, how hard is it to be Yankee or Red Sox GM and be able to buy anyone you want.

  85. Don M

    January 20, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    thats why when Brian Cashman or Theo Epstein gets praised.. I go crazy

    and how Omar Minaya still has a job is beyond me

  86. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 2:30 pm

    If Minaya’s not canned by the end of this year…I’ll be shocked!!

  87. JeffS

    January 20, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    Everyone assuming that the 7.5 number will win is missing two points, I think. First, mediocre FA pitchers are getting crazy big numbers this year so far. Although that’s not determinative in arb, it could influence the mindset of arbitrators with regard to pitching. Second, I think Joe has the same agent who (a) set the record for an arb number with Ryan Howard (and a lot of us thought that number was a stretch, also, based on service time, notwithstanding Ryan’s accomplishments), and (b) in doing so won an arb case against the Phils, which no other agent had been doing.

    I’m not saying Joe’s # is a good one, but I would put his odds of winning (if it gets that far) well above 0%. Nowhere close to 50%, but not impossible. Enough of a chance that I wouldn’t be as cocky about it as many are sounding. If Blanton’s agent somehow pulls this one off, mikemike’s argument looks a little different.

  88. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 2:56 pm

    If Joe Blanton wins…and gets $10 MM THIS year….the God help us all..

  89. Don M

    January 20, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    I fully expect them to settle.. because Blanton has to know that his odds of “winning” at $10 + Million aren’t that great..

    so he should try to settle at $7.75 – $8 M

    Then he’s still no losing $250,000 – $500,000 … anything over the $7.5 is just extra, on top of an already nice salary

    I really can’t see this case going to arbitration.. but its just him giving it a shot at more money

  90. The Original Chuck P

    January 20, 2010 at 3:23 pm

    “The Phillies budget could be $200m and they would still rake in a sweet profit. How do I know? Because I have two eyes and a rudimentary understanding of basic math. No more is required.”

    No offense… but I would think that computing and comprehending the P&L of a major league franchise that shares revenues requires more than a rudimentary understanding of basic math.

    Forbes did a report in 2009 detailing francise values… the Phillies were the 7th ranked franchise in terms of value. Their net operating income (essentially, profit before interest, taxes, depreciation amortization) was 18th at $16 million. So before the accountants push their pencils around and Uncle Sam takes his cut, it looks like they’re in the black about $16 million… but taxes have a huge impact so… Franchise value doesn’t mean a thing unless the team sells… the Marlins reported the highest net operating income ($43.7 million) followed by the Natinals; both beneficiaries of revenue sharing.

    Interestingly, the Yankees were one of two teams that reported a net loss (Detroit being the other) and their overall debt/value ratio is 95% (meaning they have total debts of 95% of their enterprise value)… not sure how healthy that is but I guess the folks in New York are happy.

  91. Ed R.

    January 20, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    I have to take exception to the notion that the Phillies are filthy rich or whatever term was used earlier.

    There is a reason that 99% of the owners or owner of pro sports teams also own other businesses besides their pro team. It’s not because they enjoy working, maybe some of them do. Or because they want to own as much as possible. Maybe some of them do.

    It’s because they need the money generated from those other business ventures to fund their pro sports teams. It’s almost impossible to own a pro franchise and expect that franchise alone to make you enough money so that you can sustain owning it. Even guys like Jerry Jones own other businesses.

    Take Drayton McClane, he is trying to sell the Astros because he can not afford to keep them. His other businesses are losing money and thus he does not have the money to invest in the Astros that he needs, so consequently, they are losing money. And he has to sell.

    Or look at Fred Wilpon, he was scammed out of millions of dollars by Bernie Madoff. The Met’s weren’t scammed. Wilpon and his other legit business holdings were scammed and so consequently he does not have the money he needs to fund his baseball team and team and thus may have to sell.

    Yes pro sports team’s make a ton of money, no doubt about it. Between ticket sales, parking, concessions, merchandise etc. They make money hand over fist. But making money does not mean you make all kinds of profit. When you subtract out the taxes that are taken out on that team for what they make, as well as salaries for the players, for the employees of the team including the stadium workers, the O.T that is paid to the cops and security guards. Whatever money they are paying back to the bank for the stadium that was built since they didn’t pay for it all on their own. You are not left with much money.

    Teams that make huge bank, teams like the Yankees do so because of their huge TV deal.

    If pro owners made all kinds of money then why would they sell their teams? If owning a sports team is some great cash cow then why turn that kind of money away? Owners don’t really make money on their team until they sell it. A teams value will appreciate as time goes on. If you run the organization well, and you are fortunate enough to have a successful franchise on the field/court/rink whatever, then your team will be worth more money when you go to sell it. Even the Pirates who have not been good in 20 years will sell for more today then whatever their previous owner/owners paid to buy them when they did.

    I am not saying that owners don’t make some money out of this on a year to year basis. They do. But it isn’t much. Not in the grand scheme of things. But to act like the owners have some vault where they keep their millions because they don’t want to put it back in the team is inaccurate.

  92. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 3:37 pm

    It’s great to be sitting here….saying the Phillies should do this…should spend that….acting like the money is just flowing all over the place….

    …Just because the perception is that they must be “filthy rich”…because of all the sellouts, etc, etc…

    But we all really don’t know what it takes to operate a big league franchise…evrything that’s involved..

    All I know is that the Phillies have given me something of value…a competitive team…a winning team….and a team that’s most likely going to be both of those…competitive AND winning….for probably the next five years or so…at a REASONABLE price.

    For my entertainment dollar…I can’t really ask more of them.

  93. WFC010

    January 20, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    Theo Epstein deserves praise because he’s a smart guy, who does have a lot of money available to spend, but he tends to spend it wisely, and is willing to let some jackass walk if they are asking for too much. You can have a huge budget all you want, but it won’t mean jack if you aren’t putting it towards the right players. Even the Red Sox have a budget, even if it’s larger than ours. Also the Phillies aren’t exactly poor or small budgeted anymore either, but I do agree that Amaro does have to be more creative and resourceful, when he doesn’t have Yankees money. Personally, I feel he’s doing a fine job for us so far.

  94. The Original Chuck P

    January 20, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    Nice post Ed…

    There were plenty of years when the Phillies reported a net loss… can’t blame ownership for setting a budget.

    If you look at 2008 revenues as a baseline for 2010 (2009 revenues were down across MLB but ours probably remained the same), the Phillies total revenues were $216 million… if you subtract out 2008 payroll and the $16 million in net income, that tells me that the non-payroll costs were $72 million.

    So for 2010, let’s be generous and assume a 2% increase in revenue ($220 million). We know that payroll is right around $141 million right now… if those “fixed” non-payroll costs remain at $72 million, that would bring net income to 8 million less any excess revenue sharing, less any roster additions… that’s not hand-over-foot money.

    Thought this was funny and interesting… starting this year, the Mets will pay Bobby Bonilla $1.19 million in deferred money every July 1st until 2035.

  95. Ed R.

    January 20, 2010 at 4:14 pm

    Thanks Chuck P.

    It’s funny because when I hit submit and the page refreshed I saw that you posted and so I read it and was like, well isn’t this just nice. He pretty much said exactly what I did but with numbers, even better. Well done.

    As for your factoid about Bonilla…this is awful and hilarious at the same time. The guy will get 1.19 mil for the next 25 years and not have to do a darn thing for it. I almost, feel like feeling bad for the Mets. But alas, I don’t feel bad. Suckers.

  96. JeffS

    January 20, 2010 at 4:17 pm

    Don M,

    The only reason I can picture Joe going to arb (also a small chance) is because of who his agent is. Crazy like a fox, though. He made the difference big enough that no matter how small the chance of winning is, the difference is an actual budget issue for the Phils. Therefore, he’ll be able to pull his settlement # up because the Phils probably don’t want to handle that big of an arb risk in dollar amount this year, no matter how small their chance of losing.

  97. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    I did not know that about Bonilla…fascinating!!

  98. The Original Chuck P

    January 20, 2010 at 4:59 pm

    Numbers aren’t everything, Ed… you said a lot of the things that I wanted to say. Revenues don’t mean anything… owning a franchise is not a slam dunk by any means.

    I don’t think that buying a franchise, especially a successful one, is a good investment (simple premise: don’t buy high)… on paper, the Phillies are valued at $496 million… but that’s only the value if someone is willing to pay that much. I doubt that there would be much of a market right now… it’s not all that profitable ($16 million in profit per year is the equivalent of a 3% return), it’s illiquid and it comes with a lot of pressure. But for that guy that dreams of owning his own team (think Mark Cuban), it’s worth it no matter what the financials say.

  99. The Dipsy

    January 20, 2010 at 5:04 pm

    Where does Forbes get the figures to report in their magazine? The teams….thats who. Look, its very simple. If the teams were barely getting by they would open their books and show everyone what they actually make. But they don’t. Why? Because if everyone knew how much the teams made and HOW they make it, the fans and players would go absolutely apeshit. Net income? Don’t make me laugh. The money that these teams make goes right back into asset, i.e. the team. Thats is why the Phillies are now worth $500,000,000 and the owners can collateralize their share of the team to the hilt. I am sure the Mets, Yankees, Braves, and every other team that owns their own network does not disclose THAT profit. The Phillies gorge themselves on concessions and merchandising. How much money do you think the Phils make on a sellout crowd on a hot Sunday in food and hats and shirts and ribs and cheesesteaks and ice cream and BEER, and the list goes on. It boggles the mind. Yes, I do believe that baseball teams make a shitload more in “shadow” revenue, using the parlance of our times, that is reported as something other than what it is. These fellows are nothing if not creative. And I would be doing the EXACT same thing if I were them. While we’re at it, someone please show me a baseball team that actually went bankrupt.

    The Dipsy

  100. Geoff

    January 20, 2010 at 5:05 pm

    I am back after my hiatus from thinking about baseball….to review…


    Manchester United is hundreds of millions of dollars in the red and they make bank…The Philles will NOT go into the red that much…

    I want to be able to go to the games…you cant feel like youre a part of something if all you do is watch on TV…thats why I CARE LESS about the Eagles. Thats why I casually follow the Flyers (3 games a year in person is all I can afford)..

    With this team, its about 12 games a year…if it gets any worse then Ill just cut down how much I go, and thus be less enthusiastic about the team…

    They WILL stay within their limits and they will be fine…

    Theyre trying to sign a deal with Victorino for a few more years I heard….Blanton wants too much…but he IS valuable…Werth is gone after this year…..Ruiz is an easier deal to make…

  101. Don M

    January 20, 2010 at 5:22 pm

    The Dipsy was the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll

    can we all relax with the conspiracy theories about hidden revenues, etc..

    Phillies make a lot of money, and spend a lot of money… the actually spend more on their teams, than other teams that make higher Revenue

    they give us a great product, and we should all be happy about that, instead of being crying little b!tches.. If you don’t like what the Phillies are doing, then don’t watch them, don’t support them

    and if you do like what they’re doing, then stop b!tching about every move they did or didn’t make

  102. The Dipsy

    January 20, 2010 at 5:33 pm

    Don – I love the Phillies. I don’t want them to spend all their money. All teams need a budget and thats fine. The thing that gets me are the Montgomery apologists that say “oh, running a ball team is so hard and its tough just to get by and the Phillies need this 140m budget in order for it to be fiscally sane and they’re doing such a great job with what they have.” Just stop with that. They spend what they choose, not what they can. To all those who thinks the Phils are “up against it” financially, and bravely navigating these “challenging economic times” then I got some swamp land for ya.

    The Dipsy

  103. mikemike

    January 20, 2010 at 5:46 pm

    Bottom line is owners usually dont care about profit in owning teams.Breaking even is usually good. if you want to make a fortune you dont buy sports teams. But dont cry you are in the red, like montgomery did, how about the 430 million profit you are sitting on does that count. I now realize some people here just dont get it amaro screw up offering arb to Blanton. You can talk about prospect but that is bull, gillies is not a top prospect , aumont was not now with a dengerative hip condition, still rather have lee for the little more it would cost, and when you talk revenue just wondering are you counting the money from seats, concession, majorlegaue appareal majestic , the bank, for adveritisng and all the ad revenue, or just making up those numbers. And I realize nomatter what you will agree the phillies dont make mistakes thats great, this team chances were better with lee than Blanton that is the point, if you are going for greatness which this team has a chance for you keep lee, and look toward the draft and spend the money to restock the system, remember last year lowest money spent on draft and international market. look it up,

  104. Paul Boye

    January 20, 2010 at 5:47 pm

    Baseball-Reference lists Blanton’s top two comparables as Jake Westbrook and Aaron Cook. Comparing the stats shows that Blanton stacks up favorably to both of them, and they both make an average of about $10M a year. Whether we think those Westbrook and Cook contracts are good is irrelevant, because they do exist and are now the base for comparison.

    His logic is starting to make sense, and his chances may be better than many of us initially thought.

  105. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 5:47 pm

    And Dipsy…

    I’ll go back to my earlier argument…if the Phillies raise the payroll to $200 million (your figure)…then ticket prices…and everything else goes up

    …to the point where a lot of people simply won’t be able to afford it…only the VERY WELL OFF…will be able to go to a lot of games…the true fans..the Joe Schmoes of the world ….WILL be relegated to just watching on TV.

    …just like Geoff said above….people will be” less enthusiastic”..

    Is that what you want?…a fanbase like that?

    When the Yankees won the WS…did you see how LAME the fans were in celebrating??…That’s because the stadium was filled with “bandwagon fans”…fans that really couldn’t care less whether the Yankees won or not….They were there because they though it would be “cool” to be there…not because they really cared.

    That’s the kind of fanbase the Phillies would have…if ticket prices, etc. were so high that most of us couldn’t go.

  106. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 5:56 pm

    And I don’t think that Montgomery and Co. ever said they were “bravely navigating these challenging economic times.”

    However…I’m sure that they are aware of the fact that if payroll rises…then so do prices….and while prices do go up…just like everything else … due to cost of living, inflation, whatever….they don’t want to price the little guy out of the picture..

    I’m glad they practice a little fiscal restraint in running their businss…because in the end…it benefits all of us.

  107. The Dipsy

    January 20, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    Paul Boye –

    Aaron Cook and Jake Westbrook are NOT in arbitration. They negotiated for their contracts. Players in arb are in a alternative reality. While Blanton’s performance may be the same as those guys, he doesn’t get paid that way. The way the system is set up, arb keeps salaries in check until the player has been in the league long enough and also so teams can keep their younger players. If you wanna compare him to an “arbitration eligible” player with the same stats, thats reasonable. Applying your premise, Lincecum should be paid on par with the best pitcher in baseball and be awarded $25. But he asked for $13m. That is because he knows how the arbitration works. Borrowing a title from a Smiths’ song, this is the collective bargaining’s way of telling the player, “You just haven’t earned it yet, baby”.

    The Dipsy

  108. The Dipsy

    January 20, 2010 at 6:14 pm

    Benifits all of us? How does dumping Cliff Lee benefit all of us?

    The Dipsy

  109. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 6:22 pm

    So you automatically use Cliff Lee as an example?? I thought you put it past you…guess not..

    I’m talking about fiscal restraint in general…whether it’s Cliff Lee or maybe not wanting to pay $125 million to Ryan Howard for 5 years (just a hypothetical)or just whatever the situation is..

  110. The Dipsy

    January 20, 2010 at 6:29 pm

    Chuck, if you’re gonna lob a pitch right down the middle of the plate, I’m gonna hit it. Cliff Lee is an obvious answer. Do you want to me to give you another, less illustrative, example just for the sake of staying away from Cliff Lee? The dust has settled on that trade. I just refuted your “benefits all of us” assertion” with the best example that what you said is not always the case. Damn, I’m starting to feel like Cliff Lee is that family member that everyone is ashamed and never talks about.

    The Dipsy

  111. Paul Boye

    January 20, 2010 at 6:29 pm

    Yes, I know that’s how the system works, Dipsy. Just speculating on Blanton’s thought process.

  112. The Dipsy

    January 20, 2010 at 6:30 pm

    Ok. Sorry Paul.

    The Dipsy

  113. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 7:15 pm

    Dipsy…look…Cliff Lee was traded…from a fan’s perspective…that sucks..I would have LOVED to have seen him in this rotation this year…

    BUT…he was traded…for financial reasons…AND because he had VALUE…which is also financial…in the LON-TERM

    That’s why I mentioned it.. AND….YOU’RE the one who brough the guy up..

    By practicing SOME fiscal restraint…whether it’s Cliff Lee, Ryan Howard or Bozo the Clown…THAT….in the end…”benefits all of us”..

    Because the Phillies have at least taken some steps in keeping payroll low enough…so that the majority of the fans can afford to go..

    If you can’t see that…then I don’t know what else to say.

  114. The Dipsy

    January 20, 2010 at 7:18 pm

    I would rather have a World Series winning team and only be able to afford to go to one game a year than have a middle of the road team and go whenever I want. And you?

    The Dipsy

  115. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 7:34 pm

    Is that a RHETORICAL question??

    C’mon…Dipsy…you know better…you know VERY well that this year’s team is not “middle of the road.”

    It’s BETTER…at least on paper…than last year’s..and I’m not gonna go into all the reasons why…they’re obvious and you know them.

    But to answer your question…IF the Phillies were “middle of the road”….3rd or 4th place…no better than .500…and out contention…then yeah, sure…I would gladly sacrifice my being able to go to games whenever I wanted order to have a WS winning team.

    But…fortunately…that’s not the case…we have a winning team…a great team… for a bunch more years….and it’s still affordable..

    …Because of financial restraint and responsibility.

  116. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 7:40 pm

    And let me just add that I would probably be less interested in the team…if prices were so high that I couldn’t afford to go to games…World Series or not.

    I wouold feel less connected to the team…

    And I’m sure others would feel the same way…

    Again…is THAT a healthy fanbase?? Is that what you want??

  117. The Dipsy

    January 20, 2010 at 7:47 pm

    It wasn’t rhetorical. I’m glad you agree with me about “middle of road” v. “WS” scenario. I also agree with pretty much everything you said. Now lets find something else to fight about.

    The Dipsy

  118. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 7:50 pm

    Sounds good, man.

  119. psujoe

    January 20, 2010 at 8:10 pm

    Phils exploring multi year deals with Blantan and Victorino. That would add another reason to trade Lee and Keep these two instead. Also looking in to multi year deal with Chooch. If they plan on having them around for a fews it’s understandable. Should be interesting to see if they can make a deal

  120. j reed

    January 20, 2010 at 8:19 pm

    man someone mentioned Wang …I was thinking of him earlier, be great, here so long as his sinker is back…doesn’t matter we are over budget anyway. I guess that means we have look in the scarp bin for the Gagne’s and Duckworth’s of the world. It’s like doing a high-end remodel but with tools from Harbor Freight

  121. Ed R.

    January 20, 2010 at 8:19 pm

    Well if you are going to involve the Lee trade then the question should not be, would you rather have a middle of the road team or years over world series for a year. The issue is would you rather have an Ace for one year, or an Ace for several years? Contend this year or contend for the next several years.

    Dipsy – I stick to my original argument that sports franchises are not the cash cows you claim them to be. But I will agree with you that there is probably a decent amount of revenue that each team has that goes unreported. Considering how much people buy from the various beer men, program guys, cotton candy guys etc. That’s all cash. No receipts so it’s almost like it didn’t happen. I am sure not all of that goes reported. Why would it? If I owned the team I wouldn’t either. But you have to figure that if regular people like you and I can come to that conclusion then so to can the IRS. And I am sure they can easily show up to CBP one day and say you ordered X amount of programs to be printed, at the end of the year you had Y left over. Show me the revenue from those programs. If X-Y does not equal Z then they will know you are hoarding profits and then the IRS is all over you. So I would think teams have to be guarded with how much unreported income they have, to the point that we aren’t talking millions of dollars.

  122. Chuck

    January 20, 2010 at 9:42 pm

    If you can work out a multi-year deal with Joe Blanton…after trading Cliff Lee….and it was your thought all along that you could achieve that…and that’s why you traded Lee ..

    …then trading Lee makes a WHOLE lot of sense…

    Because… along with Roy Halladay…having Joe Blanton for multi years is a BETTER value than having Cliff Lee for multi years…

    It goes back to the argument of keeping payroll in line…and STILL fielding a competitive team

  123. Don M

    January 21, 2010 at 9:40 am

    ESPECIALLY Because 2008 happened… I would rather have the middle of the road team, with the chance to make the playoffs and the World Series

    that I could go to see 10-15 times a year.. instead of a WS winner that I couldn’t afford to ever watch in person

    I became a Phillies fan because my dad used to take me to games at the Vet, not because I used to watch them on TV

  124. psujoe

    January 21, 2010 at 10:53 am

    Chuck, I agree completely. That had to be a part of the equation.

  125. mikemike

    January 21, 2010 at 12:53 pm

    That is the stupiest, most ass answer to a question , I now know that I was right about you Don you work for the phillies, you want a loser so it cheap for you to go, what a loser attitude that is, 50 years of this francise , two championship , that is a disgrace and i dont care about other teams bull shit to that stupid argument, this is the first team that i ever remember that had a chance to be champs more than one in a decade. And when people want to defend there bugject attitude, bullshit they have the resourse to sign players, and if blanton gets 10 million he wil have more than lee in one year deal, Don you dont have to ever answer any of my comments and I wont answer yours, I AM A WINNER NOT A loser who works for the phillies,That the same attitude laurie with the eagles has be good enough and hope y get lucky in the playoff dont spend the money its takes to win championship, peyton manning redid his contract three times to allow his team to keep the star players, to win a superbowl, laurie keeps ten percent of the cap which is another 12,3 million, thats why he wouldnt pay a loyal player like dawkins he wanted the money like the phillies owner, damm if we lose money we will die , those damm owners combine have a ton, middleton is a billionaire. so go watch you team Don while you are loyal the owners arent what a loser you really are, dipsy i salute you , you tell the truth, anyone who says for one year this team wouldnt be better with lee than blanton is nuts, a cy young pitchers versus a fat pig who gets hit around a lot.

  126. psujoe

    January 21, 2010 at 2:49 pm

    Blanton 3 years 24 million. That’s not a bad deal for both sides.

  127. DKBroiler

    January 21, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    8 Million a year for a starter who wins 60% of his games with a 4.00 ERA is actually a fair deal for all sides involved like it or not.

    Forget about Lee everyone. It wasn’t about his 10 million this year. It was about the 20 milllion a year for the 5 years after it.

    Would we have been a better team with both of them? Sure, clearly we would. However are we still clearly the class of the National League as we stand now? Yes we are.

    The other thing that bugs me is the people who think we got robbed when we dealt Lee, when Aumont is almost guarenteed to be in the majors (and contributing) much sooner then Drabek. Oh yeah, we also got a guy with speed and a .321 minor league average.

    What I don’t get is how low the Victorino figures are. The guy is a legit all star and a very good two way player with elite speed. Last time I checked those guys usually make way more then 5 and change. And Ruiz’s figure is almost laughable for a solid defensive catcher who has appeared in 2 consecutive World Series. Lock them both up quickly before thier agents regain thier brains.

    Lastly, I am in full support of Ruben Amaro. His top priority is the same as all of ours at every job that any of us do… it is to keep his job. Keeping the Phillies good for a long time through solid financial planning is the first step to that. While I want another parade as much as the next guy, keeping Lee doesn’t guarentee anything. However watching the Phils become a second division team in about 2012 when everyone’s contract comes up does guarentee something. It would guarentee that we would want Amaro fired for the reprocussions of him pushing all of his chips into the middle of the table in 2010 when he didn’t need to. Ladies and gentleman, we have a championship already. We followed it up with one of the best half dozen seasons in team history. Think long and hard about what some of you want, because eventually the future will catch up with us.

    So from one life long Phillies fan to Phillies management…

    Thank you all for having the foresight to take a half step back this season so we are not spending the years of 2012 to 2015 rooting for the Philadelphia Pirates.

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