The Dip: Like It Or Not, We're Still In it – Phillies Nation

The Dip: Like It Or Not, We're Still In it

What a bad place to be. In the thick of a wild card chase, waiting for injured players to return and healthy players to play better, deciding whether to trade one of our best players – while at the same time trying to figure out whether we are good enough (honestly) to make any noise in the post season (if in fact we actually get there). So many unknown variables to deal with. As it stands, the Phillies are not one of the best four teams in the National League. It’s also true that any team in the current wild card cluster is capable of going on a run, improbable or not, that puts them in the playoffs. So, Ruben Amaro has to watch his team for the next couple of weeks and decide whether the Phils are contenders or pretenders, and based on his decision, he will proceed accordingly. Some background:

Some fans are convinced that Cliff Lee’s departure took the heart right out of the team before the season ever began. The Halladay/Lee “thing” showed that the Phils wanted to stay very good yet stopped short of daring to be great. Last I checked, Cliff Lee does not hit home runs, steal bases, or field. He cannot pitch every day of the week and does not have a medical degree. Cliff Lee’s absence is not the problem. Injuries have compromised the Phils’ proficiency in every area: pitching, fielding, and hitting. Old timers say that injuries are not an excuse for losing. Actually, that’s not true. Injuries can be an excuse as to why you’re losing. You’re just not supposed to say it. Any sane person can understand that when you lose a zillion player games – all star player games at that – to injuries, that your team is probably not gonna play well, if not flat out suck. Mets fans learned that the hard way. So, what to do now? I think the Phillies’ fate revolves in large part around what the Phils decide to do with three key players: Jayson Werth, Joe Blanton, and Brad Lidge.

Jayson Werth is not playing well. He looks clueless at the plate. He is also, by his own admission, eagerly awaiting the end of the season so he can sign a big, fat contract…the one he has been “waiting his whole life for.” Is Jayson’s little slump a product of the Free Agent Blues – grinding his bat into sawdust and tightening up at the prospect of one less zero at the end of his next contract? Hey, I don’t know. But I do know that Ruben can replace Jayson’s current production by trading him for another righty bat and probably a lefty reliever. If you don’t believe me, compare Jayson’s stats with that of other outfielders and you’ll find that he’s not so special this year. But of course, he could get hot. Sitting around and waiting for someone to get “get hot” seems like a waste of time to me. If I find the right deal, I trade him.

The Phils have made it known they are looking for starting pitching. Joe Blanton is a good pitcher having a bad year. But Joe has a justified track record where he turns it on in the second half of seasons. Joe is a stone cold 14-10, 3.90, 200 IP guy – and those numbers don’t grow on trees. You gotta trust him to come around and lay off the temptation to trade for an Oswalt or Haren, mainly because the Phils have a bigger problem in…

Brad Lidge. He is not a major league closer anymore. While the in-the-dirt slider is still one of the best out pitches in the game, he cannot get ahead of hitters consistently enough to get in the position to throw it. His fastball is not fast and, unless perfectly placed, is a candidate to leave the park at any time. That little baby slider that he throws is fine but if he gets it up, it gets hit. In short, he does not have enough “stuff” on any of his his pitches not named “slider” to get away with a misplaced pitch. And he gets hit. A true closer must give you more than sporadic periods of effectiveness – and Lidge doesn’t offer that. The Phils will win nothing with him finishing games. If I am Ruben Amaro, I fill this hole before I look for another starter. Some more quick analysis shows why.

We know that Ibanez is an albatross and isn’t going anywhere. Domonic Brown is not getting called up before September. Jamie Moyer and Kyle Kendrick will continue to provide little at the back of the rotation. J.A. Happ probably won’t contribute soon. Utley has to come back faster than forecast. These things, you just have to hope to be surprised and see some good things happen. Hope for a little luck, let’s say.

In conclusion, at some point in the not too distant future, RAJ is gonna have to take a hard look in the mirror and decide who this team really is. Whatever decision he makes he’ll get killed for it and that comes with the job. If he decides to push all in, then I think it’s OK to trade Werth for immediate help to address our need areas. If not (and that would take a mean losing streak), then try and clear the decks: Werth, Moyer, Madson, Lidge, Ibanez can all go, while paying some salary along the way. But before that decision has to be made there is some baseball left to play. Go Phils.



  1. Jeff

    July 18, 2010 at 10:36 am

    I did not watch the game but can someone tell me why Cholly did not have a pinch runner for Brian in that 9th? He should of been thrown out at the plate. Where was a speedy runner

  2. Bart Shart

    July 18, 2010 at 10:41 am

    The Phils will win the East, I believe. They will come into sync in August and eat up the league. Werth will be strong as he realizes if he isn’t, no big contract will await him. Kendrick will be solid. Moyer will run out of gas in September. Utley and Polanco will ignite in mid August and Howard will lead the league in homers and RBI’s. Halladay and Hamels will excel, while Victorino and Ibanez will improve. I feel very optimistic.

    How does this fellow Dipsy get to post a column anyway? He is a middleweight contributor to this blog. Not terrible, not outstanding. I guess he knows people?

  3. Brian Michael

    July 18, 2010 at 10:49 am

    He has a unique opinion on things and generates debate.

    Think you can do better? We always welcome sample posts –

  4. Manny

    July 18, 2010 at 11:01 am

    @Jeff…because he was the catcher off the bench (replacing Ruiz), so had the game gone into extra innings, we wouldn’t have had anyone to catch.

  5. Manny

    July 18, 2010 at 11:06 am

    Dipsy’s second paragraph talks about how “Cliff Lee’s departure took the heart right out of the team before the season ever began.” I never really thought this would be a legit argument but after watching a few players comment on the deal, maybe it did have some effect.

    Months ago, I remember Werth saying that he couldn’t believe that we traded Lee. Yesterday, I watched Bob Costas interviewing Jimmy and Ryno and they seemed to not really understand (and looked somewhat frustrated) about the Lee trade. Clearly, they didn’t like it, especially Jimmy. For those of you who haven’t seen the interview on MLB network, you should definitely check it out.

  6. Kate

    July 18, 2010 at 12:18 pm


    I completely disagree. With all of this.

    Lidge was a tad bit scary yesterday, but he was in no real trouble. You want to see a complete collapse, check out the replay of the top of the ninth.

    Werth was slumping for a bit last year as well, though I will concede and admit that his statements regarding his impending free agency worry me. You’d think he’d tearing it up, trying to sell himself to the highest bidder.

    Get over Cliff Lee. He won’t be back, at least not this year. Moyer and Kendrick have been more solid than not. Hamels has his game face back, in the face of a lot more adversity (lack of offense) than he faced last year.

    As for Ibanez, he’s turning into a solid small-ball player, which is exactly what this team needs when it doesn’t have its usual hitting power. He’s also been a solid factor in the outfield. That’s not an albatross, that’s a guy who’s figured out how to adjust and adapt to his changing circumstances. He’s more valuable than a guy who keeps trying to do the same thing when it simply doesn’t work anymore.

    Madson just got off the DL and has been very good.

    All of these guys Dipsy claims should be dumped have long earned the right to be here through the end of the season.

    Of course, I get the feeling that Dipsy may be of the mindset that a season that doesn’t end with a WS championship is completely worthless anyway. If not, he’s doing a great impersonation of it.

  7. Bart Shart

    July 18, 2010 at 12:30 pm

    Brian Michael — thanks for your prompt response. I appreciate it. He does have an unusual perspective.

  8. Chuck

    July 18, 2010 at 12:32 pm

    “In the thick of a wild card chase”

    Second sentence in to your article, Dipsy, and I take exception. What about the race for the DIVISION???

    I believe that with Polly back and Utley by the end of August (or sooner if you listen to him), that the offense will begin to show more consistency.

    Ryan’s beginning to turn it on and I think Jayson WILL spark and ignite.

    Raul IS playing better and plays real smart, hustle-type ball. He won’t end up with last year’s numbers, but he will win us some ball games.

    Pitching isn’t really bad. Kendrick and Moyer have done ok and actually both have had times of brilliance this season. Hamels is solid and Doc is Doc. The bullpen is healthy again it seems and Lidge, while not the 2008 version, will save some key games.

    The bench is better than last season. Wilson Valdez is a nice little player.

    Have Phaith!!

  9. NickFromGermantown

    July 18, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    One of my favorite things about Lee is that he brought a killer instinct to the team. Not that the Phillies don’t have that, but he is just so cold-blooded that he would have enhanced that element. The team has looked lackadaisical at times. Maybe seeing Lee run off the field after another 1-2-3 inning would help. This is to take nothing from Halladay and his incredibly professional attitude, who I think is great. It’s just that you need different elements on a team to contribute to a greater whole.

    As for the article’s overall point, the season is no over by far. I just feel that if you make a move like to trade Lee to start the season, you can’t go for broke this year because you already made a commitment to not doing that. So management needs to be encouraged to pursue creative trades and less than popular moves in order to try to provide the best chances for future success.

  10. Brooks

    July 18, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    Look at last nights win – this is how they have won a few games lately. Playing bad but the opposing team playing worse. Just imagine if you can, the team O picking up – how many more wins would the Phils have right now. Post season would not be a ‘possibility’ rather we would be determining who the Phils would be facing.

    The Phils are that good, but playing badly. Even with the injuries, what would the season W-L record be like if our regulars were hitting just their averages? Jimmy, Vic (with consistency), Werth, Ibanez – to the statement that the Lee move took the heart out of the Phils – I certainly hope this is not the case. Professionals lick their wounds and do the best they can with what they have and you really should not hear any complaints.

    Last year the Phils won the NL and made the WS despite Brad Lidge. Although the multiple shots scare the heck out of me, he is doing better than last year. The pitching overall is better than last year – this is getting so boring guys, its the Offense.

    I will say there are a few things I do agree with Dipsy on – I would not mind massaging the idea of trading Werth. For some real prospects too if possible, the option to bring Brown up to fill his spot is there. The other point is Raul. Tough one there, his flat line production kind of goes hand in hand with the flat offense this year. His bat is the reason the Phils were leading the East last year in the first half, period (does anyone remember how many games he won for us single handed?).

    Not a big fan of Ben, I think at best he is a .260 hitter with moderate power and OK defense – which is what Ibanez is now. So, I am not sure what to do about LF –

    But in summary, the problem has not been only the injuries, the O (lack of) has been the #1 problem of the Phils this year.

  11. Bruce

    July 18, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    Hey, it’s July 18th and “Dipsy” acts as if the team is at a crossroad with the necessity of GM Ruben Amaro (using RAJ is laziness) making a decision to trade for needed parts or to salary “dump”. C’mon..the team is still very much in contention (4.5 behind Braves) and will be by the end of July. Giving up on the team’s chances this season is the FURTHEST thought in Amaro’s mind. With the exception of Utley’s injury, the team has the same offensive weapons as last year that won them another NL Championship. So take heart Phillies fans, the team is in the race to stay.

  12. Brooks

    July 18, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    Chuck, sorry to disagree with you on this one – your last statement that the bench is better this year. Are bench players substitute players? Valdez for Utley, Castro for Rollins, Dobbs for Poly? I tend to think of bench players as being pinch hitters, coming off the bench to hit for the pitcher or whomever in late innings when the game is on the line. Being I lean more toward my definition, this bench is the worst in the National League.

    A few weeks ago, Sarge mentioned on air that the Phils bench (and I assume he was using the definition I like) was hitting a league worst .111. The next better team average was at .194.

    As far as I’m concerned, one of the biggest disappointments this year has been the Phils bench. Upon clearing nearly everyone like RAJ did, I was under the favorable impression that the bench was going to be greatly improved from last year.

  13. Evan

    July 18, 2010 at 1:04 pm

    Werth was on fire in the beginning of the year but all the sudden he has the free agent blues? You can replace his production by trading for any random right handed bat? The Dipsy is the worst armchair gm ever. You could give Ruben a run for his money.

  14. Duffy Dyer

    July 18, 2010 at 1:07 pm

    Are the Phillies going to spend Werth’s asking salary if they don’t re-sign him? If so, take Jason Bay for Werth now.

  15. Pingback: Phils Ninth Inning Rally Sponsored by Cubs’ Defense | That Balls Outta Here | A Philadelphia Phillies Blog

  16. The Dipsy

    July 18, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    My perspective is, and I’m glad the rest of the article got posted, is that Amaro might to have to decide what to do with his team on July 31 if his team is sitting back in the division and the WC and is still without Utley and Happ, Moyer and Kendrick are still ineffective, and Werth still slumping. What do you do if the Phils are 5 games out of the WC at the point? Should Amaro just hold onto Werth and hopes he plays better and get nothing for him? Trade him for help? Let me make this clear: As of right now, I like the Braves, Cards, Dodgers, Giants, Rockies and Padres better than the Phils. I think they are better teams.

    And c’mon, Lidge is terrible. Hey, I’m rooting for the Phillies. I want them to rip off an 11 of 13 and put all this to rest but the way the team is playing I don’t see them making the playoffs. How can you just expect a team to “throw the switch on” ? when its not even the same team as the last two years? Moyer and Kendrick are sure to stop any hot streak right in its tracks. We had Happ and Pedro last year. Papa had Jake and looka what I got.

    If Amaro doesn’t see the team making it he should do some selling at the deadline. Thats doesn’t have to mean “packing it in”.

    The Dipsy

  17. NickFromGermantown

    July 18, 2010 at 1:12 pm

    Brooks, I don’t like your call on Francisco. He has historically been an above average player, but when he came here his playing time went down so much. It’s really affected him. For what its worth, he’s cheaper than Ibanez, but that only matters if you can move Ibanez in any capacity.

  18. Bruce

    July 18, 2010 at 1:23 pm

    @Brooks; the bench is more than just “pinchhitting”. It serves as an all-purpose need for every conceivable situation, emergency or otherwise. The team can thank their lucky stars that Valdez was available to back up ss and 2b positions when Rollins and then Utley were injured. No one can replace Utley’s bat but Valdez has done a commendable job of playing both positions flawlessly and additionally showing a strong arm. You’re right that there has been some disappointment with the offensive output of certain bench players..Dobbs comes to mind since more is expected from him..however, bench players are what they are. They will never be thought of as providing instant offense.

  19. SirAlden

    July 18, 2010 at 1:25 pm

    Werth for Papelbon. Bring up Brown and put Francisco in against difficult lefties.

    Werth is a great guy, but not an 80 Million Dollar man. Because of injuries
    he is just getting it together at the age 32 when in the post steroid era, when reflexes decline for many.

  20. Psujoe

    July 18, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    Ibanez is hitting .298 in July so he’s not the problem. Great to have Polly back but it’ll be tough to make a run with 2 utility guys, valdez and Castro on the 25 man roster. One of the assumptions of trading Lee so the phils could have $$$ in case of injuries. The other assumption was to strengthen the minors. Raj seems paralized. Phils have needed infield help all season with all the injuries. Yet, with the money and the “strengthened farm” he’s done nothing. Slumps like Werths get magnified when the rest of the team isn’t as strong.

  21. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 18, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    Happ? From what ive read hes lost it. He was a real stunner with one good season. ALA Bob Walk. Are we really expecting him to be a savior? To be honest if he ever contributes again in a significant way I will be suprised. But I do know that everyone here thought it would be the worst thing ever to deal him last year. The next time I complain about injuries will be the first time. Its part of the game and it is 100% not an excuse. At this point the Phils are basicly healthy with one injury anyway.
    I still cant believe people think SP is as important as picking up not 1 but 2 RP. RP as so much easier to get also.
    I give the Dip credit for contributing. Even if I dont agree with most of it (as usual).

  22. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 18, 2010 at 1:42 pm

    Werth for Papplebam? Id rather move him for Pujos and Wainwright phils get 2 players there.

  23. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 18, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    You dont pick up Halladay in the off season and play in 2 straight WS and then “sell” at the deadline. They would have to literally be 10 out of the WC with 7 teams ahead of them to even consider that. But I will say that with how the offense has been any trade I support. unless Ruiz or Halladay are in it. In the eyes of most outside this blog the Phillies are still the team to beat in the NL. Thats a fact.

  24. The Dipsy

    July 18, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    Joe – Ibanez is hitting .298 in the 18 days of July? My good friend, is that stat intended to hearten us as to Raul’s performance to come in the last few months or is it a “see, he’s not so bad” stat? I ask for just one more hot streak out of Raul his Phillie career its over. Gimme just one more 24-61 with plenty of hrs and rbis. We need it.

    The Dipsy

  25. The Dipsy

    July 18, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    I think that Werth would look great as a Boston Red Sock.

    The Dipsy

  26. Ted Bell

    July 18, 2010 at 1:55 pm

    Ibanez has hit .298 in 47 July ABs, so he’s suddenly “not the problem”??? What sort of logic is that? He just flipped a switched and reversed the aging process? I’ll take the large sample size over some 47 AB micro sample – since June 1 of 2009 he’s a .243 batter with very little power. That’s the reality. That’s what the team has in LF right now – a .240 hitter with very little left in the tank.

    I’m Ted Bell.

  27. bostonkate

    July 18, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    Yay for the Dipsy writing!!

    I work for the Red Sox and had the pleasure of meeting Cliff Lee after last night’s game. He said that Philly had some of the best heart of any team he’s been on.

    The Lee argument needs to die. I’m a huge fan, but he won’t be back-this season at least. So instead of dwelling on the past we need to focus on what’s happening NOW. There are plenty of positives.

    So many people act as if each individual game equals a world series loss. It doesn’t, we have half a season left. We may not have the record we did last year, but there’s still a chance.

  28. knowsall

    July 18, 2010 at 2:12 pm

    Is there any market for Werth right now? Who would trade anything of value for a guy for a half year? I don’t see him as an impact player for any contending team.

  29. David

    July 18, 2010 at 3:10 pm

    I think Charlie Manuel has done a great job handling the players but I am not sure his strategy has always been the best.

    Right now, Charlie doesn’t have great choices to fill in for Utley. He could play Polanco at 2nd and then play a Dobbs/Ransom platoon at 3rd base. Or he can play Valdez at 2nd base and play Polanco at 3rd base. Admittedly, Valdez is probably a better defensive player than the other two. But you have a situation with the bases loaded and Valdez on deck, you have to pinch hit for Wilson Valdez. If Charlie pinch hits Dobbs for Valdez, maybe the Phils score in the 6th inning and force the Cubs to go to the bullpen earlier.

  30. Chuck

    July 18, 2010 at 3:24 pm

    Brooks says…. “Look at last night’s win- this is how they have won a few games lately. Playing bad but the opposing team playing worse.”

    How did the Phillies play “bad” yesterday.??

    Cole Hamels was on his game. He pitched well and kept the Phillies in the game. And the team scored runs when they had to.

    Give Charlie credit for effectively using his bench in the 9th. And give the Phils offense props for being patient at the plate and working those walks.

    Give Polanco credit for getting that hit and Raul for busting it down the line for his hit.

    The Phils took advantage of Marmol’s weakness….which is what GOOD teams do in the late innings.

  31. Chuck

    July 18, 2010 at 3:27 pm

    Also, you have to credit Durbin for keeping it a 1 run game and Lidge for nailing down the save. As we all know, even a 4-1 lead in Wrigley isn’t a foregone conclusion.

    I said a few days ago that the Phillies would have to “steal” a few games along the way. That’s exactly what the did yesterday.

  32. bigbobster

    July 18, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    Thanks for a good read, and I agree with you Dipsy on all points except maybe for Lidge. A team this close to the playoffs needs to be tweaked. As I’ve stated here, the Werth “slump” is now on eight weeks. Eight weeks! I just see a guy so totally distracted at the plate. It will show up in his career stats as an “off-year.” Normally, that would be ok, and he’ll have great years, but there is a very short window of opportunity for the Phils with this current roster. I don’t expect Werth to return to his earlier form this year. Charlie won’t sit him down, so now I believe Amaro needs to get aggressive. I think a shake-up is needed. Youth is needed. It’s hard to watch the other teams in the NL East and see that the Phils have no youthful offensive spark. And I remember clearly what Lonnie Smith did for the entire line-up in 1980. It’s time for Brown. Trade Werth for a bench player and a prospect. They’ll lose him anyway. Forget the Harens out there for now. Let Dominic play in August. As for Lidge, I think his stuff is not bad. Yes, like Madson, he finds too much of the plate, but I think he can close 12 of 15 games for the rest of the year. I’ll take that. It’s the offense that needs the most help.

  33. Psujoe

    July 18, 2010 at 4:03 pm

    Is Werth in danger of losing his type A status or is that a lock?

  34. Manny

    July 18, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    If they trade Werth for “a bench player and a prospect”… I’ll be at CBP the next day protesting and throwing eggs.

  35. Manny

    July 18, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    Psujoe: it’s almost a lock that he’s Type A.

  36. The Dipsy

    July 18, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    Bobster – Seeing as the Phillies don’t have much to trade, I would like to see the Phils concentrate on a middling type righty outfielder that can give us 10 40 .280 down the stretch and a lefty late inning guy a la Kelly Downs. Come to think of it, lets make it Kelly Downs. Jayson is not going to get hot and carry this team. He’s not stealing bases. He is not having a good year. I guess 24 90 .270 is OK (not).

    The Dipsy

  37. The Dipsy

    July 18, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    Manny, you sure?

    The Dipsy

  38. Chuck

    July 18, 2010 at 4:25 pm

    Manny… I agree with you about “protesting”

    Throwing dogsh*t would be my choice!!

    Seriously, trading Jayson Werth makes zero…..ZERO…..sense for a team that’s right in the thick of a pennant race.

    And….I’m gonna laugh my a$$ off at all you bandwagoners when Werth goes on a tear and becomes a major reason why this team makes the playoffs for the 4th straight year.

  39. psujoe

    July 18, 2010 at 4:27 pm

    Thanks Manny,

    I just looked it up and Werth does appear to be a lock.

    Pettite left the Yankees game int he 3rd inning with a groin injury. Yankees will go after a starter if it’s serious. That will make the other starters more expensive.

  40. Chuck

    July 18, 2010 at 4:33 pm


    You don’t think Jayson can give us 10 / 40/ .280 the rest of the way???

  41. The Dipsy

    July 18, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    Chuck, do you think some people are rooting against Jayson Werth?

    The Dipsy

  42. The Dipsy

    July 18, 2010 at 4:38 pm

    Yes I do, Chuck. But so can a lot of other guys who aren’t going to walk away leaving us with nothing after the season. That is my point. Jayson offers all this speed, which he has (5 SBs) and a great arm, which he has…..and he will give you those offensive numbers. But he’s not playing well AND he’s leaving. So gimme a guy who can put up the same numbers who’s not as sexy and let the team that deals for Jayson worry about whether he’s going to get hot down the stretch or whether they can sign him.

    The Dipsy

  43. Chuck

    July 18, 2010 at 4:51 pm

    Who do you suggest??…..and PLEASE don’t say Jermaine Dye.

    rooting against him?? ….. I don’t know. Why would they?? Just to justify getting rid of him??…. as if to say, “See, I told you that it wasn’t a good idea to extend him back in April.”

  44. The Dipsy

    July 18, 2010 at 5:12 pm

    Off the top of my head, uh, Josh Willingham, someone like that. Perhaps I just misread your post. I don’t think bandwagoners root against Jayson Werth or want to see him fail. I just don’t think the Phils have what it takes and I’m just trying to be a clear eyed realist. If they hit a losing streak and are not playing well at the end of the month you, do what ya gotta do, I say. Meanwhile, if you’re making your run in August, if we can fill two needs by getting good value for Jayson, I would like to see the Phils do that. If its looking bad at the end of the month, and it probably won’t, then you can trade him for anything the Phils think is best, be it prospects/players.

    The Dipsy

  45. shag beta sigma delta

    July 18, 2010 at 5:15 pm

    Dipsy, your hatred for Lidge is moving into Moyer territory now. Moyer is going to win at least 14 games if not more. Lidge’s fastball is 93 which is fast enough, you do not have to throw 97-98. And the idea that his stuff is not good enough to miss his spots is just stupid. It is good enough, you expect him to go in and strike three guys out every time. No pitcher stuff is good enough if he does not throw it where he wants it. Lidge is far better then last year, And really when Chooch is calling the game he has been great this year. Raul has been hitting .295 for the last 5-6 weeks, granted his power is not there, but you do not need everyone to hit 30 HR to win games. He actually is hitting the ball more up the middle and more solid since the middle of June, so he is not an albatrose. You keep saying you are rooting for the Phils, but they need to do something. You know what they don’t, if Wreth continues in a season long slump, do you think there are teams going to offer him 15 million for 5 years, no there will not be, so the Phillies can sign him for 12-13 for 5 years and once that is done, he will be better. I know you hate Moyer also, and he did not pitch well against the Cubs, but he will pitch better his next start and he is a solid #4/5 guy along with KK, and Blanton has 2 really good games out of his last three starts and his real bad game they came back and won it for him. What this teams needs in the second half is for Vic, JRoll, PP, and Jayson to become more consistant at the plate and if the “O” can pick it up there is no reason how this team is rotation wise and pen wise play .600 ball for the second half. Is 93-94 wins enough for the division or wild card, if not you, than you go into the winter trying to figure out what you need, you do not do that in the Middle of July

  46. Chuck

    July 18, 2010 at 5:24 pm

    I have a different approach to Jayson’s situation.

    He’s clearly struggling and probably won’t put up the same numbers as last year with HRs and RBIs. Average is UP, however, along with his doubles (26 all of last year, 28 so far this year to lead the league).

    But he’s gonna get hot at some point and probably end up with 25 HR and 85 RBI. All in all, it’s an ok year….especially if his average remains up and he keeps hitting doubles like he is. He needs to steal some more too….because he can.

    Is that worth 15 -16M per year? No. But the Phillies COULD sign him for 4/50-55. He’s worth that for sure.

  47. Brooks

    July 18, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    Chuck, in yesterdays game the pitching was great, the offense was not. The game was given to the Phils. That is why I said the Phils played bad.

    The last 2 wins over the Reds were almost the same. No one seemed to want to take the games as there was no hitting until the Phils ended the misery for both teams. Imagine how the Reds felt, limping out of Philadelphia knowing that after the 4 game series, they scored an average of under 2 earned runs per game vs. a team that has been having troubles knocking runners in let alone getting more than 1 hit per inning.

    A win is a win Chuck, I’m good with that but looking ahead to tonights game we need to squeeze the offense to push out at least 3, maybe 4 runs to keep Roy on the winning track.

    Next on the docket is St Louis and thank God for that. Ryan loves to show off in front of his family and he does his best peacock impression with runners on base. Look for at least 2 or 3 more HR’s from Ryan before he comes home. Maybe Jayson will like the taste of redbird in the pan too? Honestly, that is the combination that will put the rest of the league on alert. Ryan and Jayson hitting stride at the same time. Because if they are going to do that, either Vic or Jimmy has to be getting on base in front of them and if you toss in some vitamin Ibby and Poly-O – all is good.

    Bring it on, the end of July is not that far off – before you know it we’ll be back in the heart of this race and deep into the deciding month of September. Remember, the last 25 games of the year are vs our own division. Going into Sept 6 games out may mean nothing when exiting the last of the games in October.

  48. The Second John

    July 18, 2010 at 5:28 pm

    Shag, I agree with Dipsy on Lidge because he has no fastball command whatsoever. It’s only a matter of time before he blows another save, and then another, and then another.

  49. psujoe

    July 18, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    Question? Who is a better #5 Kendrick @ $.48 million or Moyer at $8 million?

  50. The Dipsy

    July 18, 2010 at 5:31 pm

    Shag – My friend, respected poster. Moyer sucks. KK sucks. When I evaluate whether a player is good or not, I watch a whole season within a whole career. I do not watch 3 good starts in a row and then believe I’m seeing the real Moyer and then spend all his other shitty starts wondering when he’s gonna “click back in”. The three good starts are the aberration, the tease that keep all the Philly fans going. If you wanna say that he’s a rabbit’s foot and that the offense just responds when he pitches, well ok. But he and KK at 4 and 5 are going to kill us. I think Kyle can be good one day but he’s not there yet. Ibanez succeeding as a singles hitter the last month? Thats not why he’s here. And I think that a 12m dollar poor fielding, slow running, singles hitter IS an albatross.

    I agree with you that the O has to pick it up. No one is hitting but for Ryan and JRoll is just flat out horrible right now. I don’t know what we need to get the O going. Maybe just time…which is running out. Well, and Lidge. Lidge is done. Look at his stats the last year and a half. He’s older. He can’t throw the ball past anyone anymore and he needs his fastball. I don’t hate Lidge. I don’t hate anybody. I just hate what some players do on the baseball field. I’m sure they are all quite nice as people (smile emoticon)

    The Dipsy

  51. Chuck

    July 18, 2010 at 5:35 pm

    I agree that the offense wasn’t there….until the 9th.

    But they didn’t play bad. They scored when it counted.

    Let’s win tonight for the split…..and to stay at 4.5 back of the Braves who already won. Hopefully, 3 of 4 in StL….although I will take a split (it’s real hard to win 4 game series on the road).

    If we just take a game off the standings each week or 10 days….we’re even by Sept 1.

  52. Chuck

    July 18, 2010 at 5:38 pm


  53. Bob

    July 18, 2010 at 5:38 pm

    How are Moyer and Kendrick continuing to be ineffective? They are your number 4 and 5 starters, respectfully. They are giving you exactly what you ask for. In most of their starts, the Phils have a chance to win the game-nothing more that I will personally ask of those 2 but to continue to give this team a chance.

    We are stuck with Lidge, seems as he is good one day and abysmal the next. No one is taking that contract, so they need to ride this storm out. Need a bullpen arm to stabilze the rest of the bullpen, that is more important to me then landing a starter.

    Cliff Lee is not or would not be the reason the Phils fall short of the playoffs. Seriously the issue needs to be put to rest. He will not be pitching against this team in World Series, Texas is not good enough. The starting pitching minus Blanton has done the job.

    The bench is much much improved from last season. Imagine if Eric Bruntlett had to play 60 games for Rollins/Utley/Polanco

  54. The Dipsy

    July 18, 2010 at 5:44 pm

    I didn’t ask for a 4.88 ERA out of my 4th starter. Or fourth starter last year was JA Happ. Now its Moyer. Thats quite a contrast.

    The Dipsy

  55. Psujoe

    July 18, 2010 at 5:46 pm


    I agree. Moyers been ok for a #5, but at that price no thanks. I don’t think he’ll be back. Very disappointed that Happ is struggling to return. If I’m RAJ I try for a 3b/inf with power at the right price. Otherwise it’s wait and see.

  56. Don M

    July 18, 2010 at 6:04 pm

    Reading this post.. I see, once again, that The Dipsy always phrases things in the most dramatic of ways

  57. TT

    July 18, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    I don’t see the Phillies selling. After all the poor pla, we are 4.5 games out in mid-July. We win tonight and we have won 6 of the last 8. Once we get Chase back, I see a run. Polanco was a huge piece to return to the lineup. The Braves are a beatable team, very beatable. Have some faith in the best Phillies team we have seen.

  58. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 18, 2010 at 6:08 pm

    Moyer sucks.
    Laughable at best. Who says these things? I don’t like Hamels but hes been great so it is what it is. some of these people develop personal feelings and then the player can lead the team in wins and he “sucks”.
    I guess that’s what goes on at these blogs.

    Now since 2006 Hamels has made 135 starts for the phillies with 55 wins.
    Since 2006 Moyer has started 122 games for the phillies with 56 wins.

    That’s Coles entire career that makes you guys so excited. 13 less starts 1 more win for a 47 year old soft tosser.
    That’s 5 years it isn’t all just luck.
    Luckily the powers that be understand the sport more than the fans on a blog. You guys are dazzled by peripheral stats and stuff. I am dazzled when the Phillie’s win a game. By any means necessary.
    No I don’t think Moyer is better. I am just pointing out how out there some of the opinions on blogs are.

  59. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 18, 2010 at 6:12 pm

    Really 5 years isnt all luck so if Moyer sucks Hamels must really suck I guess. I tend to think both have pulled thier weight this year and the last 5. The Moyer contract has been validated. If it hasnt then whats Hamels worth? Is he over paid?

  60. Dooseldorf

    July 18, 2010 at 6:17 pm

    How many playoff wins does Moyer have?

  61. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 18, 2010 at 6:27 pm

    I have been hearing Moyer sucks for so long I just get tired of it. Sorry he doesnt have the dazzling arm that you guys can identify with. He just leads the team in wins the last 5 years and is only 1 behnd Roy this year. Not bad for a suck is all I am saying.

  62. Bart Shart

    July 18, 2010 at 6:50 pm

    Everyone will be surprised when Moyer is elected to the Hall of Fame, representing mediocrity for the longest period of time than anyone in the history of baseball. For spreading out average to below-average talent for longer than anyone else in baseball history. For earning the most money of any ballplayer with plain-jane skills. Moyer will be the first to represent a brand new category —– RUN OF THE MILL.

  63. The Dipsy

    July 18, 2010 at 7:05 pm

    Mamas raise your babies to grow up to be lefties.

    The Dipsy

  64. bacardipr05

    July 18, 2010 at 7:07 pm

    I didnt read all the comments read some however read the article. I agree with most of it. I say keep Madson and maybe look to trade JC. The guy just walks to many batters. I say start grooming Mathieson now and see what happens. I wouldnt put him in tie or 1 run lead situations. Thats if the Phils can ever get a 2 or 3 run lead team. Did the article mention Baez? Raj said he was going to improve the pen last year. He then brings in Baez and Contreras. While Contreras has been a surprise I dont see improving anything. We need a closer than can also perhaps double as a set up man. Even if we can just sign him to a one year deal while hopefully grooming Mathieson and see what he is capable off. Same time we have an insurance policy. Some people I have talk to have been saying this back in late May theres a problem at the Club house. More than one of course what that is its hard to say.

  65. ChuckS

    July 18, 2010 at 7:37 pm

    I don’t think that Ruben should do anything. Other then signing Doc for 4 years, everything else was either a wash or a complete and udder failure. He can’t be trusted.

  66. Kate

    July 18, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    Anyone who says Moyer sucks just does not know a good baseball player when they see him.

    We’re not talking talent here, which Moyer does have plenty of. We’re talking twenty years’ worth of experience that Moyer brings with him every time he takes the mound. Yes, he’s had his implosions this year, but every one of our starters have had some truly putrid (by each’s standards) starts this year.

    Moyer has been schooling left and right this season.

    As for Lidge, I’d like to see JC and Baez go before him. Now, in all fairness to JC, that’s one guy who’s been picking it up substantially more recently. But I spend more time biting my nails when he and Baez take the mound than I do with Contreras, Madson, or Lidge.

    Lidge’s problem is consistent confidence. Like Ricky Bo once said, this is a guy who should be saying to himself, “I’m Brad Lidge. I got this.” As much as I hate Phillies fans (or any fans) booing one of their own in their own ballpark, that might be what Lidge needs to really be Brad Lidge. It certainly worked against the Reds.

    Credibility is going way down when I see “Moyer sucks.” Because it’s just not true. Statistically, factually, actually, metaphorically, literally; any way you cut it, it’s not true.

  67. ChuckS

    July 18, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    and for the record Jayson Werth is projected to get two draft supplemental draft picks if he leaves the phils via free agency

  68. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 18, 2010 at 7:51 pm

    You tell em Kate.

    Moyer needs to pitch 3 more years and get about 30 more wins then he is a hall of famer ( thats possible). And you can make it because of longevity. You can also make it for playing on a winning team. Like Phil Rizzuto.

    To me Hamels is the most crucial part of the Phillies. If he is as good as he can be then this team is in the series again with him starting game 2. I am not worried about Roy. I am not worried about the bats. I worry about if Cole will be a legit front line starter and I worry about the Pen.

  69. BostonKate

    July 18, 2010 at 7:51 pm

    @ Kate

    spot on with everything you said.

  70. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 18, 2010 at 7:53 pm

    By legit front line starter I mean as good as he was playoffs 08. It would be tough for the Phillies lose a playoff series with a A+ Hamels and Halladay starting 5 games.

  71. The Dipsy

    July 18, 2010 at 7:54 pm

    Kate. Moyer doesn’t suck. I should have selected my words more carefully. He (and Ibanez) was a poor investment by Ruben and he pitches well below the manner in which he is being paid. If he were making 2m a year to be our #5, you would not hear a peep out of me. I know Moyer is trying his best and it is actually Ruben who deserves the blame for signing a 47 year old guy for 8m to serve up an 4.88 ERA and just about 5.00 last year. I am serious when I say that I am probably projecting this hostility onto Moyer. If I were he I would have taken the money, too.

    The Dipsy

  72. ChuckS

    July 18, 2010 at 7:55 pm

    as far as Jamie Moyer is considered, he was supposed to be the phils number 5 starter, not the number 3. That would change a lot of people’s view, in perspective

  73. The Dipsy

    July 18, 2010 at 7:58 pm

    But, he will never, ever, EVER, make the HOF. Thats a laugher. His election would discredit many of the players that are in there for dominating their eras at their positions. See Bart post @ 6:50.

    The Dipsy

  74. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 18, 2010 at 8:05 pm

    Dipsy. Many times 50 years after we are all gone the old timers committee puts people in. Moyer is a prime candidate for this. Especially if he keeps pitching. If he gets to 300 which is probably 25-1 chance he gets in well before that. Odds are that he will make it. Maybe not till after we are all gone though.
    He is also worth his contract.
    For next year 1 year at 5 million is probably more in line. Id have no problem is the Phils did that.

  75. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 18, 2010 at 8:09 pm

    Check out this guys numbers. He retired in 1926 and got elected to the HOF in 1971. Moyer compares very favorably.

  76. The Dipsy

    July 18, 2010 at 8:22 pm

    Hahaha. In what way?

    The Dipsy

  77. psujoe

    July 18, 2010 at 8:30 pm

    Here’s one for you. If Jayson has a down year any chance he accepts arbitration? hmmm.

  78. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 18, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    Moyer has 67 more wins and only 30 more loses. Winning percentage is a true gauge of a player. Marquand pitched in the dead ball era so his ERA compared to the league compares to Moyers vs the rest of the league. It took marquand 46 years to be elected. You can argue that if it takes that long are you a hall of famer?
    Youll notice marquand never led the league in anything only won 20 games 3 times in an era when 50 starts was the norm. He is very much an above average (not great) player who played a long time. Kinda like?
    Moyer will go to the hall. But we may not witness it.

  79. The Dipsy

    July 18, 2010 at 9:11 pm

    You saw a lot of guys go in the Hall by the Veteran’s Commitee early but not so much anymore. I figure that since you couldn’t have 37 guys go in each year during the first 15 years or so of the Hall’s existence, they created the VC to let in overlooked guys and umps and owners and stuff. Those players, for the most part, have been taken care of. In fact, they should start subtracting. The players nowadays have, I think, 15 years and then they are taken off the ballot. I don’t see guys retiring nowadays being candidates for the VC because the VC (not VietCong) have caught up on most of the guys that maybe got rooked early on. One day I think you’ll see the VC taking the position, “well, they had 15 years to get in when they were eligible, so why should we let him in?” Jaime is just not a Hall of Famer. Never won a Cy Young, or a WS game, how many times an all star…twice maybe? Just don’t see it.

    The Dipsy

  80. The Dipsy

    July 18, 2010 at 9:18 pm

    Have you checked Nolan Ryan’s winning % lately?

    The Dipsy

  81. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 18, 2010 at 9:20 pm

    Marquand got in in 71 the hall opened n 1939.
    Look at what Marquand did. Its less than Moyer. Just saying is all.
    I suspect Moyer goes and hes pitching next year at least. As the numbers grow it becomes more likely.

  82. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 18, 2010 at 9:23 pm

    Ryan has 7 no hitters. and 5,714 Ks
    You make it in with those 2 stats even with a .523 wining pct.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Phillies Nation has been bringing Phillies fans together since 2004 with non-stop news, analysis, trade rumors, trips, t-shirts, and other fun stuff!

Browse the Archives

Browse by Category

Copyright Phillies Nation, LLC 2004-2016
Not Affiliated with Major League Baseball or the Philadelphia Phillies

To Top