Phils Extra-Inning Woes Continue As They Fall To Jays – Phillies Nation
2012 Game Recaps

Phils Extra-Inning Woes Continue As They Fall To Jays

It's June 16, and Cliff Lee is still without a win. (AP)

For the third time in a row, the Phillies were able to get a lead with Cliff Lee on the mound, and for the third time in a row, they’d end up losing the game. This time, it was a painful loss in extra innings, as the Blue Jays prevailed 6-5 in ten innings. Defense was the coup de grace today for a Phillies team that can’t seem to get things going back in the right direction.

It’s June 16th, And Cliff Lee’s Still Winless:

– I understand that wins are a virtually meaningless statistic for pitchers, but it’s June 16th, Lee has thrown very well, and he still doesn’t have a win. It’s getting a little ridiculous. It’s actually a perfect example of why the win statistic needs to be thrown out. Still, you can tell the guy is frustrated by it.

– Lee wasn’t his usual sharp self today. He  allowed five earned runs in 7+ innings, though three of them were probably more on the defense than Lee (more on that later). But it was a battle as he allowed a season-high twelve hits. He worked out of jams in the third, fourth, and sixth innings. In the third he was helped out by some poor baserunning by the Blue Jays and in the fourth a ground rule double prevented a run from scoring. It looked like he may be able to get to Jonathan Papelbon with the lead by himself as he entered the eighth inning, but then…

Rollins Adds Insurance, Squanders It Away:

In the top of the eighth inning, Jimmy Rollins was able to give the Phillies a 5-2 lead when he doubled in a run with two outs. It wouldn’t matter. His throwing error with no outs in the bottom half of the frame would cost the team two runs and allow the Blue Jays to pull within a run. What felt like certain victory with a three-run lead, Lee on the mound and Papelbon in the ‘pen for the ninth quickly dissipated to nervous tension. The drama only heightened when the Blue Jays tied the game at five a few batters later with Chad Qualls pitching, making Rollins’s error even more costly. Lee was charged with all three runs, but Rollins and Qualls didn’t do him any favors.

– That’s not to say Lee should be immune to criticism. Lee played with fire today, and it finally burned him in the eighth. His walk to start the inning should not go unmentioned, as it started the three-run rally that eventually cost the Phils the ballgame when the Blue Jays walked off in the tenth.

Defensive Blunders

– The Phillies have now made fourteen errors in their last ten games. They’ve gone 3-7 in those games, and a lot of them were winnable, if not for the errors. During their five-year stretch of division titles, the Phillies were consistently one of the best defensive teams in baseball. This year, that has changed. They seem to botch a lot of plays they would’ve made in years past, and when you give teams extra outs with errors as much as the Phillies have, it’s going to come back to bite you. Of note: It’s no coincidence the first game of this recent stretch of inept defense came on June 6th–the night Freddy Galvis injured his back. Galvis is one of the best defensive players this game has seen in a long time, and his absence is clearly hurting the team in the field.

Runs Early?! You Guessed It!

– The Phillies were able to take an early 1-0 lead in the first inning when Hunter Pence drove in Placido Polanco with a rare hit with runners in scoring position (Pence is hitting just .213 with RISP). They’d make it 4-1 when John Mayberry hit a three-run homer–his second in three games–in the third inning. They’d score just one run in the final seven innings.

– Scoring runs early has been the Phillies modus operandi over the last couple of weeks. In their last ten games, they’ve averaged three runs through the first three innings (30 runs total). To compare, they’ve scored 2.2 runs per game from the fourth inning on in those same games (22 runs total).

– I’ve never been a big believer in the idea that scoring runs late is more important than scoring them early. After all, if you score ten runs, why does it matter if they all came in the first inning? However, there seems to be something to the idea that the Phillies inability to score late runs is messing with the psyche of the pitching staff and has them pressing in the later innings. Think about it: The team has scored 5.2 runs per game over their last ten, yet they’ve gone 3-7. In their first 57 games, they scored 4.1 runs per game, and went 28-29. Theoretically, if they’re scoring more runs, they should be winning more games. And yet, they’ve played worse, and a lot of it has been because of the pitching. There’s a lot contributing to this skid–injuries, mental errors, lack of ability–but this seems like one more thing to add to the list.

Game Notes:

– The loss today marks the eighth time this season the Phillies have lost on a walk-off win.

– The Phillies will turn to Kyle Kendrick tomorrow when they try to avoid the sweep north of the border. Brett Cecil will make his 2012 debut for the Blue Jays.

Click to comment


  1. Andrew from Waldorf

    June 16, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    Hope people had that playing in their heads during the 8th inning debacle.
    And of course the ridiculous balk in the 10th.

    The clown show in effect. Coming to a town near you soon.

    This team is worse than even I thought they would be. But it is fun to laugh at the comedy of errors (and balks).

  2. Joe

    June 16, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    Hahahhahahhahahaha the phillies are pathetic, enjoy last place this year and enjoy your old roster you guys are garbage just like your classless fanbase

    • Stuart

      June 16, 2012 at 10:47 pm

      Talk about classless.

    • Ryne Duren

      June 17, 2012 at 7:53 am

      joe blow from windy city! hahahahahahahahahahaha or just plain j-blow oh wait i’m sorry that’s saved for jimmy rollins! so yuo’ll just have to be joe blow!


    June 16, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    One thing Cliff Lee is really good at —- sucking money out of the Phillies organization. I guess we owe him about $100 million. What could we do with that money now?

    • EricL

      June 17, 2012 at 12:39 am

      Cliff Lee has actually been really good this year. But whatever.

    • PhP54

      June 17, 2012 at 6:53 am

      Blaming Cliff Lee is like blaming the bat boy. With about two exceptions, Cliff Lee has been in line for a win and either lost (or no decision) by errors, lack of run support or bullpen woes. I blame the starting pitching for NOTHING actually. With few exceptions, they are NOT the problem. In fact, I am for signing Hamels and blowing up the rest of the team up (whatever is left of it anyway). I look forward to 2013, sadly, but HOPE for a miracle.

    • Ryne Duren

      June 17, 2012 at 8:00 am

      well bart i don’t know about you, but the first thing i’d do if i had the 100 m is take all you guys out for a dinner and drinks of your choice ( except for jow blow) and we can all laugh at our teams play! not that that would be fun but hey life does go on! so we could have a good time. and after that i’d still have about $ 999,932.left. ( i’m frugal).

      anyway, happy fathers day to all you dads out there! have a good day! you too joe blow.

  4. "Big Ed" Delahanty

    June 16, 2012 at 5:14 pm

    Phils are up 5-2. I go out to do some yard work thinking that they will bring the hammer down. I must have been dropping acid because I came in for a beer and it was 5-5. Then I realized the ghost of the bad news bears took over my Phillies. I then watched “I’m not too cool to balk” Joe Savery lose the game. I hope Cholly has some cyanide handy. Holy Mother!

  5. Andrew from Waldorf

    June 16, 2012 at 5:25 pm

    @ Bart
    The Lee contract was only good if they win a title with him.
    It however was a deal you make. You just didnt get your title.

    It becomes Howard like over time.

    There is a 12.5 million buy out for 2016 or hes owed 27,500,000.00$
    Its 25 million in 2013 2014 2015

    so if you include this year hes owed still over 100 million.
    In all fairness to Ruben Minaya Jr. While I didnt pull my pants down like most about his resigning here. I understood it was a win now contract. That was going to have long term issues. Like…
    It was a deal that I can not criticize a ton.

    • Jeff Dowder

      June 16, 2012 at 5:33 pm

      I don’t think they can buyout 2016 if he meets the vesting requirements: 200 IP in 2015 or 400 IP in 2014-15. That would guarantee his $27.5M for 2016.

  6. bacardipr05

    June 16, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    Wtf happen…?? again???


    June 16, 2012 at 8:10 pm

    At one time in my life, I employed logic and empathy when evaluating the Phils. Now, however, in my golden years, I let the emotions spill out like a fresh popped champaign bottle because if I keep them bottled up, then I may flat-out explode from frustration.

    I must say that having won five straight division championships, the thought of finishing last in the NL East leaves me with a huge stinking load in my pants. I need to have emotional bowel movements after games like this.

    Sorry to offend my fellow fans. I try to keep a sense of humor while I chew my toe nails over my favorite baseball team, which really stinks this year.


    June 16, 2012 at 8:12 pm

    ….. after all, they didn’t name me Bart “SHART” for nothing.

  9. Greg

    June 16, 2012 at 8:54 pm

    No one should feel sorry for Cliff. He has had some tough luck but he has blown at least three games when he had ample run support. All too reminiscent of game 2 NLDS last year. You don’t pay a guy that much money to cough up leads like this. Hope we trade him and some sucker takes this overrated POS.

    • EricL

      June 17, 2012 at 12:40 am

      hahaha. good one.

      Yes, he could have pitched better in the later stages of the last two outings. It would have helped, however, if he had a halfway competent defense behind him. Again, he’s been one of the best pitchers in the league this season, so don’t get caught up in this results-oriented thinking.

  10. George

    June 16, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    I’m pretty disgusted with all the negativity regarding Cliff Lee. He hasn’t blown all that many games when he had run support; no more than Hamels or Halladay have, and certainly far fewer than Blanton or Kendrick have.

    People gripe about his playoff loss, but take away Lee’s 16 regular season wins and the Phils never even would have made those playoffs.

    I think Sabathia has blown a few leads in his career, too. I guess he’s even more overrated, because he’s got an even bigger contract.

    • Ryne Duren

      June 17, 2012 at 8:07 am

      hey i’m on the same page with you george. it’s a shame though that baseball doesn’t have a rule simular to football where you pay up front money and then the years. then if a player sucks they dump his contract and don’t have to pay. if that was the case we would have a much different team this year.

    • PhP54

      June 17, 2012 at 11:28 am

      I am a lifelong phan – and I have had plenty to gripe about over the years – Lee is NOT something to gripe about. These complainers are looking for a scapegoat. Here is a fact: Blame the ones on the field making errors. Blame the ones not driving in runs. When you have an ERA of 3 and are winless (and I think one of those losses was a 1-0 game) you CANNOT blame the pitcher. Wins and losses are overrated stats. Look at his ERA and WHIP and if you want to complain (WHIP is 1.1 and ERA is 3.48). I still argue that two of those 5 runs should unearned, but who am I?

  11. Andrew from Waldorf

    June 16, 2012 at 11:29 pm

    Not so much an over rated POS lol

    But yea at this point dealing any of the big contracts will become more and more apparant and needed. At some point though people have to understand that these old guys with the contracts become valueless. If you traded Howard now. Which is impossible. You get nothing back. You hope a team like the Yankees or Red sox pays 7-10 million of that 25 million he is owed the next 5 years. So youd be paying 18 million for him to play on another team. I only say this because some fans think you can trade him for Hamilton and Kinsler.
    Lee is getting close to being in the Howard range.

    @ George
    I dont like when people say stuff like take away his 16 wins etc etc.
    Someoen else would have started those games. And yes hed be major league level and yes he would have won some of those games. Its like people think if they didnt re sign J Roll there woould only be 8 defenders on the field and there would be a hole at SS.
    Last year the phillies could have lost any one player. And made the playoffs with say 90 wins. And one could argue that would have been better than 102 wins and a first round loss.

    • George

      June 17, 2012 at 8:13 am

      Who would have pitched? Blanton? Oswalt? Kendrick? Any other doofus filling in for Lee would have won maybe ten games, and that would not have gotten them to the first round.

      Rollins has absolutely nothing to do with it. You’re making an argument with a point stretched beyond stupidity.

  12. "Big Ed" Delahanty

    June 17, 2012 at 12:03 am

    Fin fact: On July 13, 1896, Delahanty hit four home runs in a game, being only the second player to do so at the time, (Bobby Lowe was the first in 1894, and Hamilton is the most recent), the only player ever to do so with four inside-the-park homers, and the first one to do so in a losing effort. (The Phillies lost the game, 9–8.) Bob Horner, in 1986, is the only other MLB player to have hit four home runs in a losing effort. Later, in 1899, Delahanty hit four doubles in the same game. He remains the only man with a four-homer game to his credit to also have a game in which he hit four doubles. Ironically, all was for naught. Even our hall of fame hitters had a rough go.

  13. Andrew from Waldorf

    June 17, 2012 at 12:12 am

    Fun fact.
    This is my favorite part of big Eds obit.

    Delehanty’s body was mangled. One leg was torn off, presumably by the propeller of the Maid of the Mist, near whose landing the body was found. The body will be shipped to Washington to-night. Delehanty’s effects have been sent to his wife by the Pullman people.

    Reminds me a bit of the 2012 Phillies season.
    Mangled and missing a leg.

  14. Andrew from Waldorf

    June 17, 2012 at 12:20 am

    After the train had disappeared across the bridge, Delehanty started to walk across, which is against the rules. The night watchman attempted to stop him, but Delehanty pushed the man to one side. The draw of the bridge had been opened for a boat, and the player plunged into the dark waters of the Niagara.

    My number 2 fun fact.

  15. EricL

    June 17, 2012 at 12:44 am

    BTW, if they bring in Papelbon with 1 out in the 8th they probably win this game.

    Much like if they bring in Papelbon in the 8th inning on April 8th against Pittsburgh, May 2nd against Atlanta, etc. But hey, let’s make sure that he pitches when he can get a SAVE, not when you’re in a high-pressure, high-leverage situation.

  16. Andrew from Waldorf

    June 17, 2012 at 12:51 am

    Yea bring in Pap in the 8th and you dont have a crappy team with 31 wins. Only 5 teams in baseball have less. Basicly you suck and brining in a pitcher in the 8th isnt really a solution. And he traditionaly doesnt do well in non save situations. But I digress.

    I am waiting for Donny or someone else to tell me Cliff is the best 0 win pitcher in the histor of baseball y on June 21st.

    Really cant wait. And whoever does it make it sincere please. Because I probably agree.

    • EricL

      June 17, 2012 at 1:03 am

      Papelbon actually has better numbers throughout his career in non-save situations.

      They had leads in the 8th inning in each of those games. And lost the games. With their best bullpen arm sitting on the bench. That’s absolutely horrible.

      I know I’ve said this before, but if you trust a pitcher like Qualls to pitch when there are two guys on, one out, in the bottom of the 8th with a one run lead, then why wouldn’t you trust him to start a fresh inning, when the chances for blowing the lead are MUCH lower? If you don’t want to use Papelbon (who has pitched a mere 4 times this month, mind you) for 5 outs, that’s fine, use one of the other guys to start the ninth. But using Qualls with the game on the line there is a mistake when there’s a guy who is MUCH MUCH BETTER sitting in the bullpen. Hell, Charlie said he would have used Papelbon for 4 outs today. So why not 5? It’s just poor managing, and on a team that is struggling to keep afloat like they are you cannot have poor managerial decisions like that. It was a managerial mistake that was every bit as responsible for the loss as Rollins’ throwing error, Lee’s lack of his best stuff or Qualls’ general suckyness.

      And, hypothetically , if they win those three games I mentioned their record is 34-32 and they’re right in the thick of things.

    • Don M

      June 18, 2012 at 12:23 pm

      not sure about “in history” but yea, I’d say Cliff Lee is the best active pitcher with 0 wins this year …. you’re right on the money, Andrew from Waldorf

  17. Andrew from Waldorf

    June 17, 2012 at 2:14 am

    Isnt he 17 for 17 in save chances?
    So that puts all the bad outing in non save situations.

    Realy talking about the the big bucks closer pitching in the 8th is what?
    A crappy team grasping for straws.

    But grasp.
    Were Howard or Utley actually running to first base on Sat night?
    Or are we still in the stages of them swinging and not running to first?

    • EricL

      June 17, 2012 at 2:55 am

      that’s a clown analysis, bro.

      Papelbon’s thrown 25.2 innings this season. That’s not enough to gauge anything. Would you take 3 random starts from any pitcher and use that as a basis for evaluating his season? Of course not! You need larger samples, to assess true talent levels.

      For his career:

      Save situations – K/BB Ratio: 4.46 Opponent slash line:198/.258/.297
      Non-save situations – K/BB Ratio: 5.51 .209/.257/.329

      That is, for all intents and purposes, the same (because again, these are small sample sizes so one or two hits can sway the lines significantly either way), except he strikes out more batters per walk in non-save situations. A team spending big bucks for a “closer” pitching in THE HIGHEST LEVERAGE SITUATIONS is OPTIMAL USAGE OF YOUR BEST PLAYERS.

      Maybe the “leverage” thing is difficult for people who aren’t used to it, so I should explain it a bit more granularly. Bear with me here, because it’s instructive as to why I keep saying Papelbon should be used differently. Basically, “leverage” in basebal a measure of how important a situation is to the outcome of the game. Statistically, a leverage value of 1.0 is equal to the importance of a play at the beginning of the game, which is to say not all that important (because you have lots of time to change the outcome of the game). When situations arise that present a large probability of changing the outcome of the game (for example, bases loaded, late in the game with a 1-run lead), the leverage of that situation rises, because that situation has a higher impact on the outcome of the game.

      The point of all that is to say some situations are much more important to the outcome of the game than other situations are. So, when you are faced with a situation in which the outcome of the game lies in the balance — the highest leverage situations of the game — you should use your best pitchers (or, if you’re the offensive team, your best batters) because that one particular point in time carries more weight and importance with respect to the outcome of the game than most other situations. Often these “high leverage” situations come toward the end of the game, and so generally it makes sense to use your best bullpen arm–your closer–in these situations. And this is, in a way, what the “Save” statistic tries to represent. But sometimes the highest leverage situation occurs in the 8th inning, and at that point it’s often correct to use your best pitcher–again, your closer–because you’re at the most important point in the game when it comes to winning or losing, even if this means that he doesn’t get a save.

      What I’m saying here is that late in a one run game, if you have less than two outs and a runner on third base, the leverage index for that play is VERY HIGH. Much higher, in fact, than at the start of an inning when nobody is on base. So, if that runner-on situation occurs in the 8th inning, THAT is the most important situation in that game, NOT the start of the 9th inning, and as such, you should use your absolute best pitcher when he can most affect the outcome of the game, and allow the lesser pitcher to pitch in the lower-leverage situation at the start of the next inning.

      I really hope you guys get this. I’m not grasping at straws here, it’s me advocating using Papelbon when he’s most needed, even if it won’t get him a “save.” I’d rather the Phils win the game with Qualls getting the save than lose the game because they didn’t use their best pitcher in the most important situation in the game…which has happened at least three times this season.

      • EricL

        June 17, 2012 at 3:01 am

        If you want to read a little more about leverage situations and indices, look here: (Skip down to the sub-heading “Win Expectancy 101” and start from there.

      • George

        June 17, 2012 at 8:29 am

        “Would you take 3 random starts from any pitcher and use that as a basis for evaluating his season?”

        Unfortunately, a lot of people do just that.

        Your arguments for using a closer differently are compelling. There is one factor, though, which may prevent it from happening. That’s the closer himself, who may desire all those “save” and “games finished” stats to get a bigger contract. Really, the entire concept of rewarding a guy so hugely for getting three whole outs in a non-critical situation (like no one on, up by three) is pretty ridiculous. A lot of times, it’s the setup men taking the real stress. (Speaking of which, if the Phils had a reliable guy besides Papelbon, they might have won last night.)

  18. Bob

    June 17, 2012 at 3:59 am

    Cliff Lee and Cole Hamels deserve some flak for this….they have been flat awful lately.

    The rest of this, IMO, is having too many AAA/bench players starting in games, and most of all, throwing in your pen in critical spots.

    You dont win with the likes of Joe Savery and BJ Rosenberg consistently throwing in huge innings in a game. Yes, I think Charlie needs to use Papelbon on the road, in tie games at this point, but you can only have him go over an inning so many times.

    This deck has 46/52 cards in it. It adds up to 31-36….gotta hope they can get a streak to stay in striking distance before the trade deadline. Think they have a good 4 weeks of baseball to get it right.

    There is no juggernaut in this division….time to go now. If not, gotta sell. Lets go health

  19. "Big Ed" Delahanty

    June 17, 2012 at 7:01 am

    @Andrew: you totally got what I was going at. Right now now matter what we do great it is still going to go against us, just some bad breaks. Thought your fun facts were hysterical an gave me a much needed laugh.

    I love the Phillies, but they should ban Kendrick from speaking:
    After turning in six straight starts of allowing two or fewer earned runs, Kendrick has struggled in his last two outings, conceding 11 tallies over just 9 2/3 innings. In his last trip to the mound, Kendrick quickly spotted the American League-worst Twins a 5-0 lead and never recovered.

    “Everything was fine,” Kendrick said after that outing, in which he ultimately allowed six runs on eight hits in just four innings of work. “I was getting ahead. I just wanted to be aggressive, and they swung the bats well. There was nothing I could do.”
    Really,Kyle? Not the game I and PN watched.

  20. "Big Ed" Delahanty

    June 17, 2012 at 7:11 am

    @Eric L: On one hand I don’t want to overuse Pap, but I agree with your analysis, and really think Cholly misuses him sometimes, especially in a leverage situation. I also highly doubt Cholly understands “a leverage situation.” For example:

    “We had some inconsistency in our starting pitching, in our offense, and even in our defense. We needed to play better. We needed to win some more games.” -Charlie Manuel
    ‘Nuff said. Lmao.

    • Ryne Duren

      June 17, 2012 at 8:15 am

      big ed it’s a shame charlie didn’t finish that with ” we also coulda managed gooder much more gooder! ya know that’s what i think ya know”

    • George

      June 18, 2012 at 1:56 pm

      Inconsistency in all those places named by Manuel has nothing to do with any leverage situation. If your entire team is playing like garbage, as Manuel stated, you’re rarely even going to get close to a leverage situation. The team DOES need to play better.

  21. Chuck A.

    June 17, 2012 at 8:11 am

    @Big Ed…. The Delahanty stories by you and AFW was a great way for me to begin my day. We all need to keep it light around here or we’ll go crazy. Beyond that I really don’t know what else to say right now. I am not surprised they lost the game yesterday nor am I upset by it. The only thing that I WILL say with conviction is that Cliff Lee DOES deserve SOME…not all… of the blame for yesterday’s loss. He gave up 5 runs, pure and simple. Yes, the defense let him down and yes, the bullpen sh!t the bed. But he still gave up 5 earned runs.

    • George

      June 17, 2012 at 8:37 am

      The bullpen actually allowed one of those “earned runs” to score, and the defense was pretty much responsible for another. No telling, really, what would have happened had Rollins not tossed the ball into right field.

      That brings Lee’s total down to three, which is a pretty decent effort.

  22. Ryne Duren

    June 17, 2012 at 8:47 am

    the way i look at lee’s situation, winless that is. he only has 3 losses! to me that means he’s kept us in games for the most part with an opportunity to win. yes he’s ginen up a few leads and yes he gave up 5 runs yesterday but to me that reflects on the managers ability to get the starters out of there befor they implode. i know the pens been iffy but you do what you have to do! i would bring the pen into play even more at this point! by not doing so you show a lack of confidence which to me effects the way they pitch. now then if a guy repeatedly doesn’t do the job then he goes back to the minors or gets released! it’s the only way for them to get experience. if as it seems it’s not our year. then as a manager you have to recognize this and start getting these younger pitchers ready for next year! i understand that we have time to get back into it but realistically they’re not gonna do it. i hear a lot that they overcame slow starts before blah blah. but look at the roster, how many guys on it were on the teams that came back? the starting 8 ? just rollins, vic and chooch . that’s 3. and two of them are having subpar years. and in 07 and 08 we slugged our way back. our pitching wasn’t very good. (starters) the pen was! and now our pen isn’t, and the starters have to be feeling the heat from an inconsistant offense, shaky defense, and an inexperienced pen. times yours!

    • Ryne Duren

      June 17, 2012 at 8:50 am

      and i forgot to add that how many other pitchers in baseball at this point in the season with as many starts as lee have only 3 losses. i mean a cy young was won in the AL with what 13-14 wins? ( that was a joke in my eyes) but still having only 3 losses says something.

    • George

      June 18, 2012 at 2:03 pm

      I’d like to point out that Manuel has run the same arms out of the bullpen repeatedly, and almost every time they blow it. There’s not a fan on this site who has any confidence in Qualls, Savery, or some of the others, so why in the world should Manuel have any?

      Half the pen are replacements, due to arms on the DL. There’s no one else to replace those replacements. Manuel is nearly forced to use the starters until they implode, or take a huge chance that Qualls won’t give up hits, which is precisely what happened in this game. A decent job by the pen and the Phils would have won.

  23. TheDipsy

    June 17, 2012 at 8:49 am

    Start using Papelbon for two innings. For a good team with a bullpen, I would prefer to save my closer for save situations. But that’s not us. I think the “leverage” school of thought has merit. But so do lots of things in baseball that baseball people will never do. This may be old school and over simplistic and not sensitive to 2012’s finely tuned athlete but here goes: I could honestly care less if Papelbon doesn’t want to go two innings. You played baseball all your life. You CAN throw 40 pitches in one day and not have you are fall off. We have no bullpen. You’re our bullpen now. You make a lot of money. Just pitch and don’t ask questions.

    The Dipsy

    • chuck schreiber

      June 17, 2012 at 2:59 pm

      Thank you Dipsy you’ll right on…..

  24. TheDipsy

    June 17, 2012 at 8:52 am

    We lose for a different reason every day. This is the hallmark of a bad team. The Phillies are not good in any area. The Phillies don’t, and probably will not, have enough players to compete this year.

    PN is just talking therapy for all of us right now. But I need it.

    The Dipsy

  25. Chuck A.

    June 17, 2012 at 9:07 am

    George – Like I said, Cliff deserves SOME – not all – of the blame. Bullpen and defense certainly were to blame as well. The man needs a W though.

    • George

      June 18, 2012 at 2:10 pm

      Sure, he needs a “W.” But he’s not going to get one when people are throwing the ball into right field and his relief allows everyone to score. He could have, and should have gotten that “W,” even if his pitching wasn’t up to his usual quality (it still wasn’t bad; those five earned would have been three without the crappy play around him). And there have been other games he should have won, too, which could be blamed on others.

  26. Lefty

    June 17, 2012 at 9:17 am

    Lee’s peripheral stats (fielding independent) and “normal” stats show that he and Hamels are nearly identical in every category at this point in the season. Only the BABIP ( mostly a measure of bad luck), and hence the BA against are worse.
    Yet these two stats differ greatly-
    Hamels 9-3
    Lee 0-3
    My comment today is not about why this is so, I’ll leave that for greater minds.

    What I want to know is why most want to blame Lee and moan about his contract, and at the same time jump to give Hamels a long expensive contract.

    They are virtually the same pitcher. IMO- this thinking is totally irrational, and I’ll never understand it.

    • EricL

      June 17, 2012 at 11:23 am

      If this was facebook I would “like” this post.

      • George

        June 18, 2012 at 2:11 pm

        Me too, except I hate facebook.

  27. Lefty

    June 17, 2012 at 9:25 am

    @The Dipsy, I agree that losing for a different reason everyday is a hallmark of a bad team. But respectfully, can we at least wait until Summer- to declare the boys of Summer incapable of competing?

    • Chuck A.

      June 17, 2012 at 9:37 am

      That gives us 3 days since Summer begins on Wednesday.

      • Lefty

        June 17, 2012 at 11:36 am

        Okay , how about a month into summer? 🙂

        Honestly, I know that neither of us will give in until they are either mathematically eliminated, or torn apart by the F.O.

      • Chuck A.

        June 17, 2012 at 11:48 am

        Ok. That sounds about right. I was just being facetious anyway….but you knew that..

  28. Lefty

    June 17, 2012 at 9:34 am

    The walk-offs are mind numbing. And pitching is partly to blame, but before blaming just the BP, what about the fact that the BP has to come in so early in most games? And before blaming the starters, what about the fact that the little leaguers in the field can’t catch a pop fly in sun, or have gloves of stone, or can’t read a fly ball to know when to let it drop and keep it in front of them? Or OF’s that can’t hit a cut off man, or IF’s that can’t make a throw to first?

    IMO- Starters go longer when they don’t have to get 4 outs per inning, keeping the middle BP in the BP, causing less walk-offs.

    • George

      June 18, 2012 at 2:13 pm

      Very good points.

  29. betasigmadeltashag

    June 17, 2012 at 9:41 am

    I am frustrated with this team, but I also realize there are just some bad years. This team is not as bad defensivly as they have been playing. Not sure if it is trying to do too much in certin situations or just simple lack of focus. I put some this game on Charlie, I know he has limited options, but in then the tenth I do not think you start that inning with Savory, and even though he did pitch a scorless inning I have not faith in Schwimmer either.
    As for Cliff maybe it is just me, but his pace during the game is way off this year, I do not know if he does not trust Schnider or Chooch br does not trust his stuff, or just does not care. But in the past he would just get the ball and throw it, now it seems after every pitch or two he takes his glove off walks around. He just does not seem to just catch the ball and throw it. I seemed to see it last night a lot the seemingly lack of confidence in his pitches, not necesarilly shaking Schnider off, but just taking a lot more time on the mound. Maybe it does not have anythig to do with it, but just an observation.
    I still think this season is not over, but this teams needs something to remind them that they can win and should win games

    • Chuck A.

      June 17, 2012 at 9:49 am

      beta – respectfully…. they ARE bad defensively right now.

  30. Jeff

    June 17, 2012 at 11:05 am

    What did you expect from a old and crippling team. They are done.

    The run is over. Go Nats and Werth. They are the new team
    And add the mets in there. Dickey is better then doc

  31. PhP54

    June 17, 2012 at 11:22 am

    That 8th inning should have been different and I don’t blame Lee one bit. If Michael Martinez had taken a step back (he saw Escobar not running too late and TRIED to drop it); if Rollins makes the throw, if Ruben had not signed Qualls (I called that horrible move – He was part of that horrendous D-Backs pen of 2009 or 2010 I believe). Any way you look at it, Cliff Lee is not to blame. I am sick of hearing that. He took a discount to come to us, and I for one won’t forget it. His ERA is around 3, what more can you ask for?

    Blaming the starting pitching is like blaming the bat boys. The starting pitching and Papplebon are the only ones on the team I actually have phaith in. Sign Hamels and blow up the rest of the ones over 32 (where possible). I think Charlie said it best – they just play bad. Worley has an ERA under 3 and should also have two more wins. I know it is easier said than done. I hate it for us, but it is what it is; but it is NOT the starting pitching.

    I mean – what do we expect with all the players on the DL? The brght side – remember the Cards last year though – 10.5 games back – so we have time; but every game counts… Remember the Braves and Red Sox – anything is still possible, but time is ticking. They have got to get it together.

    • dglass

      June 17, 2012 at 11:31 am

      “What do we expect with all the players on the DL?” We expect the GM to anticipate that a returning starting lineup over age 30 will be on the DL quite a bit and attempt to acquire or bring up younger talent.

      • PhP54

        June 17, 2012 at 11:35 am

        Then blame Ruben, not Cliff Lee; that is my exact point. I DO blame RUben for a lot of this mess – Howard extension, Qualls, etc. He has made some great moves, but some terrible ones too.

      • chuck schreiber

        June 17, 2012 at 3:11 pm

        RAj definately should have known the extend of Utley & Howard’s injurys. He had all of the off season to properly replace them. Wiggy, Nix, Luna, Fontenot, Martinez are NOT proper replacements. As far as the BP goes that is an unforunate injury problem Stutes, Contrasas, etc all. The signing Qualls was a huge mistake and believe me he might have been better to hang on to Lidge instead of him. Couldn”t have been any worst.

    • George

      June 18, 2012 at 2:24 pm

      Lidge this year had been pitching worse than Qualls and was just released by the Nats.

      And to those who claim Amaro hasn’t brought in any younger players, I’ll point out these: Mayberry, Galvis, Martinez, Stutes, Bastardo, and Worley. He also traded for Pence, who is 28. Brown, too, has been given a try. He didn’t re-sign the aging Oswalt, the aging Lidge, or the aging Ibanez.

      Every GM makes some bad moves. Not many win five straight division championships.

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