Analysis

Phillies Send Pence to Giants in 4-Player Deal

Moments after the Phillies finalized a deal sending Shane Victorino to the Dodgers (see story), reports surfaced that the Phils and Giants were close to completing a deal for Hunter Pence.

A few hours and a few issues later, the deal was finalized. Pence is on his way to San Francisco for three players: catching prospect Tommy Joseph, major league outfielder Nate Schierholtz and Single-A pitcher Seth Rosin.

The Phils and Giants had been negotiating all week, but the acquisition of Victorino by their NL West rival likely escalated talks between the parties.

Joseph is 21 years old, was a 2009 second-round pick and entered the season as the Giants’ No. 2 prospect, behind centerfielder Gary Brown. Joseph has a .315 wOBA in Double-A this season and has hit slightly below average relative to his level in each of his first three years in the minors. But then again, he’s only 21, and he’s in Double-A. So growing pains are to be expected. Last season, Joseph hit .270/.317/.471 with 22 home runs and 33 doubles at High-A San Jose.

Scouts consider him a viable catching option, which obviously increases his value to the team, with Carlos Ruiz a potential free agent after the 2013 season. The Phils also have Sebastian Valle waiting in the wings, though his struggles at Double-A have caused some concern. Plus, catcher is one position where depth is welcome. Acquiring Joseph means the Phillies have two solid catching prospects in the system.

Joseph, Rosin and Schierholtz might seem like an underwhelming return, but Joseph is now one of the top prospects in the Phillies’ system, Rosin has some potential, and Schierholtz, if platooned with Mayberry, could be pretty effective. It’s an interesting deal. Here’s why…

Schierholtz is an intriguing piece. He’s a corner outfielder currently in his first year of arbitration, who has seemingly settled into the .325 wOBA area. Given that the league average is .313, he is an above-average hitter. However, relative to outfielders, he is closer to average, as they have a collective .331 wOBA.

He plays solid defense, has an exceptional arm and runs the bases fairly well. Put together, Schierholtz is a perfectly average player who is best utilized in a platoon. This season, the lefty-hitting Schierholtz has a .363 wOBA against righties. Last year, he had a .346 wOBA against righties. He is a decent throw-in but nothing more.

Rosin, 23 years old, is a 6-foot-6 righty pitching in High-A. He looks like a big-time strikeout pitcher, although he may also be considered on the older side for his level. In 56.1 innings this year, he has a 10.9 K/9 and a 2.9 BB/9.

When the Giants Come to Town ranked Rosin No. 18 on their pre-season prospect list, suggesting that he might have the best fastball command of any pitcher the Giants have drafted since Madison Bumgarner. Rosin pounds the strike zone with both a two- and four-seam fastball and works to keep the ball on the ground. He throws around 93-96 mph as a reliever and features a changeup, as well. The Giants tried him as a starter but he seems primed for bullpen duty as his breaking ball is sub-par.

Fangraphs’ minor league expert, Marc Hulet, also summarized Rosin in his pre-season prospect rankings thusly:

SLEEPER ALERT: Seth Rosin, RHP: If you’re a rival executive talking trade with the Giants this winter you’ll want to ask for Rosin as a throw in to any deal. He’s made easy work of pro ball so far. He has a big, strong frame at 6’5” 240 lbs and has shown the ability to both start and relieve, while producing both strong strikeout rates and good ground-ball numbers. Despite spending the entire 2011 season in low-A (for no good reason), the club challenged the right-hander with an assignment to the Arizona Fall League and he’s more than held his own. As a pitcher from a northern state (Minnesota) he could be a late-bloomer.”

In trading Pence, the Phillies will free up approximately $14 million next season because they won’t have to worry about his final year of arbitration. They brought back a solid catching prospect, a big-strikeout relief pitching prospect, and a major leaguer who has utility as the left-handed bat in an outfield platoon. It’s not the sexiest return, but bolstering depth at an important position and freeing up money are both long-term interests of this organization. And the Phillies accomplished both goals today.

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0 Comments

  1. Manny

    July 31, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    I don’t get it… If all we’re gonna get for Pence is a minor league catcher (when he have Chooch and then Valle down the line), why make this deal NOW? Wait till the offseason, someone out (other than the Giants and their crippled farm system) will give you something better for Pence!

    • Bob in Bucks

      August 1, 2012 at 12:10 am

      Manny –

      I don’t think we all have fully appreciated the impact of the new MLB agreement. A common error, done over and over by posters and writers on this site, is to assume that the luxury tax is a salary cap. The luxury tax is based on TOTAL compensation which includes benefits and any perks. And the compensation is based on an average of each specific players contract years. So, that $10 million buyout that Ryan Howard has has to be added into his average year. So, even though he “only” gets $20 million in 2012 and 2013 the average over the contract is $25 PLUS benefits.

      There have been various assumptions about the costs of benefits but it is clearly in the millions when you consider that the Medicare tax has no cap. I have seen calculations that range from $7-11 million for “benefits”. So when you add up the Phils payroll you can see that when you add benefits they are probably over the luxury tax in 2012 and heading that way for 2013.

      Seems ownership was willing to pay that tax for the right result but without that result they don’t want to pay. Seems reasonable to me so they have to dump payroll where they can and take what they can get.

  2. Lefty

    July 31, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    Just a guess, Manny, but maybe RA Jr. was under the gun to get rid of salary after signing Hamels, and he doesn’t want to trade Lee, so he accepts less back in terms of prospects to get two months of salaries off the books.

    • Manny

      July 31, 2012 at 1:02 pm

      If that’s the case, it would be the exact same rationale for trading Lee immediately after getting Doc.. a glaring, predictable mistake… not maximizing the player’s value (Lee then, Pence now). Pence is still an above-average player who can play in the middle of any lineup. Get something in return. Salary dump my a$$!

      • David

        July 31, 2012 at 5:10 pm

        I agree, as with Victorino – these are BIG NAMES; Victorino and Pence, and they’re getting players (Nate being the exception from SF, saw him almost win the game for them last night vs the Mets) I’ve barely heard of plus prospects – Pence is at least as valuable as a Cabrera or a Posey. With Victorino, the Dodgers will take it all this year and he’ll have two rings!

  3. Jeff

    July 31, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    I know I kill Ruben but he knows what he is doing. Salary relief. Hunter was getting 14 plus next season. Maybe we will make a move to get someone. Let him to his job. They are making the right moves

  4. Lefty

    July 31, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    MLBTR has pulled the Pence headline. Now it’s just “Giants TO acquire Hunter Pence”

    Seems the deal is not done yet.

    • dan

      July 31, 2012 at 1:12 pm

      it was “Giants Acquire Hunter Pence”, then “Giants Acquire Hunter Pence?”, now “Giants to Acquire Hunter Pence”

      • Eric Seidman

        July 31, 2012 at 1:36 pm

        Yeah — that may have been my favorite thing of today, haha.

  5. Chuck A.

    July 31, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    I can’t keep up with all the info coming in and I’m not getting anything done at work. But this sure is fun, right guys??

    • Dave

      July 31, 2012 at 1:09 pm

      I don’t think it’s much fun. This year has sucked. I would much rather the headline read, “Phils acquire Wright to bolster lineup for stretch run.” I wish I could look at it any other way Chuck, but I can’t. All those years of being the laughingstock in the late 80’s and early 90’s has made me this way!!

  6. natsnatsnats

    July 31, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    You know what the funny thing is? The phillies arent even close to being good enough to be considered a rival of the nats. 16.5 back? #firstplacenats against #firesalephillies #winning #NATITUTDE

    • Ryne Duren

      July 31, 2012 at 1:02 pm

      hey nats blow it out you ass! we’ll be backkkk ! it won’t be long your team will be dumping guys too! if you can’t fill the seats hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! better win this tear.

      • natsnatsnats

        July 31, 2012 at 1:07 pm

        We have the best team in baseball. That’s commonly accepted nationwide, and we have the best young players. The future is so bright, we need shades. We are young and only getting better. You are old and continue to get worse, its embarassing how awful you are. I laugh at the phillies collapse as the nationals will only continue to rise

      • 1st_in_War

        July 31, 2012 at 1:16 pm

        Hmm, let’s see. Best record in baseball, youngest team in baseball, all young position players and pitchers locked up for at least the next 5 years, bottom 1/3rd in payroll, richest owners in MLB. Nope, don’t think we’ll be “dumping guys” anytime soon.

        Thank you for flying Phillies Airways. Please keep your seatbelts fastened as we continue our descent into Irrelevancy.

      • natsnatsnats

        July 31, 2012 at 1:21 pm

        Couldn’t have said it better myself. Hope your scrub lineup enjoys facing Stephen Strasburg tonight. I know I will enjoy the show.

      • Stuart

        July 31, 2012 at 8:28 pm

        Where are you all now?

    • goldynboy

      July 31, 2012 at 6:54 pm

      Its funny how all of a sudden Nats fans come out of the wood work…….yeah i give them a nod for being in first right now, but seriously c’mon!!!!!!! You guys have been garbage and were always sweeping the bottom of the NL east floors……win something then lets talk , and i’m not speaking about 1 division title, i’m talking numerous division titles and MLB Titles… until then hush and enjoy the ride, every new car is sweet and looks pretty and smells nice, but trust and believe things happen and eventually your motor will blow and you’ll get flats!!!! By the way the Braves and Mets are better then the Nats as well, just not by the standings….which mean its a fluke season for ya’ll!!!! #GOPHILS

      • 1st_in_War

        July 31, 2012 at 7:27 pm

        Your claim that the Mets are better than the Nats pretty much illegitimizes everything in your post. And if by getting “flats” you’re referring to injuries, well the Nats have endured some horrible injuries to the lineup this year. Arguably worse than what the Phillies have endured. Yet we thrived. Why? Depth provided by an outstanding farm system. It’s why our backups helped carry us to a division lead, while our healthy starters carried us to the best record in the Majors. The Phillies? That’s a very different story.

    • goldynboy

      July 31, 2012 at 11:04 pm

      What Show did you watch tonight Nats..8-0…Stephen Strasburg….yep he was great, FOR US…lol. See dont talk before hand, it will bite u in the A$$…I love when people talk sh*t and then they eat it…lol.#GOPHILS

    • Ben

      August 1, 2012 at 10:35 am

      two words for all you nationals bandwagon suckers, JAYSON WERTH. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

  7. Jeff Dowder

    July 31, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    These are pure salary dumps. Nothing too complicated going on.

  8. Chuck A.

    July 31, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    Ruben needs to hold the line on this Pence deal. He can always trade him in the offseason.

    • Jeff Dowder

      July 31, 2012 at 1:08 pm

      He’s been traded already.

  9. Alex

    July 31, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    So they trade another outfielder for a player we already have in our minors (except the guy we have is hitting better). Maybe I can play outfield for them? You didnt have to trade pence so you should’ve gotten one top prospect for him since he isn’t a rental. Our GM got ripped. Hopefully he is packaging this guy and blanton for someone else…

    • Manny

      July 31, 2012 at 1:10 pm

      Seriously. Ridiculous.

    • Jeff Dowder

      July 31, 2012 at 1:22 pm

      David_Schoenfield:
      “Nothing wrong with too many catching prospects. And Valle has a .281 OBP in Double-A. Big doubts about his bat. He is young (21), however. Very few players with an 83/11 SO/BB ratio ever develop into productive major league hitters.”

  10. TheDipsy

    July 31, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    If Ruben has to trade Pence for this guy he should be effin fired! This guy is a boirderline prospect for gods sake. I know there has to be more comin with him.

    The Dipsy

    • Manny

      July 31, 2012 at 1:11 pm

      I certainly hope so. Otherwise, wow.. just thinking about all the prospects/potential prospects we lost/will lose on Hunter Pence alone is making me sick.

  11. Udfan4000

    July 31, 2012 at 1:13 pm

    Jon Heyman: “rival gm says catching prospect tommy joseph who goes to #phillies from SF in pence deal is ‘GREAT'”

  12. Manny

    July 31, 2012 at 1:18 pm

    They might send Nate Schierholtz to Philly. Excuse me while I go puke.

    • Eric Seidman

      July 31, 2012 at 1:39 pm

      The league average wOBA the last two years is .314. Schierholtz was at .327 last year and is at .321 this year. In his 2nd yr of arb in 2013, decent defender, average baserunner. He’s a perfectly average player. Nothing wrong with him as a throw-in. But he can’t be the centerpiece.

  13. TheDipsy

    July 31, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    Is that right. Does he hit like crap because he’s trying to sandbag people?

    The Dipsy

  14. Alex

    July 31, 2012 at 1:22 pm

    I love all the Nats fans who come on this site because their team doesn’t have enough fans for their on site.

    • 1st_in_War

      July 31, 2012 at 2:40 pm

      160+ comments about the same topic at washingtonpost.com, and we’re not even moving anybody, let alone the core of our team for the last five years. Try again.

  15. Tracey

    July 31, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    As Howard Eskin said, “Now that Pence is traded to SF what will #phillies do w 45,000 bobbleheads for Aug 21 giveaway. Any bidders out there..CHEAP “

    • Boto

      July 31, 2012 at 2:35 pm

      Maybe Frisco gets them as part of the trade. They have their own Hunter Pence day and hand them out with a new set of Giants decals to cover up the Phillies ones.

    • Jeff Dowder

      July 31, 2012 at 3:31 pm

      Todd Zolecki ‏@ToddZolecki:

      “For those wondering … Pence bobble head giveaway is still on as scheduled Aug. 21.”

    • Ryne Duren

      July 31, 2012 at 3:56 pm

      send the bobleheads to washington they can make a few alterations and make them jason werthless bobbleheads.

  16. Chuck A.

    July 31, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    Not a done deal yet. Got to get as much as possible from SF.

  17. George

    July 31, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    Wait until all the details come out before judging this “might be” deal. No one is so stupid they’d trade Pence for only one prospect; it’s just that Joseph is the only name that’s surfaced yet. Plus, the whole thing could still fall through.

  18. Chuck A.

    July 31, 2012 at 1:34 pm

    Eff the Nats fans. All these supposed “fanbases” in this division make me sick. ATL has been relevant for years and they can’t fill that place up.

  19. phil

    July 31, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    They’ll send them to sf in the trade and pay for the bobble heads to be painted since amaro is that bad of a gm.

    • Ryan H

      July 31, 2012 at 1:52 pm

      what would be the point of keeping him? i’d trade him for a bag of balls. no reason not to.

  20. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 31, 2012 at 1:38 pm

    Its a start.
    Victorino was along with Ruiz the heart and soul of the championship team run.
    More important than any other player.
    But you could see him wearing down. The gutlessness of some of the others rubbing off on the entire roster.
    And dont say I am out of line. Charlie himself said this week that his team used to win on heart and thats gone down.

    Pence and Vic would not be on the top of my list to deal. But since the others are untradable because of thier ridiculous contracts they had to go. Because they have legitimate MLB contracts.
    Interesting that the key to the Giants trade is a Catcher.

    Can they trade Ruben to some other team to wreck thier roster and farm system?
    Ill throw in some money myself to sweeten that deal.

  21. Tom G

    July 31, 2012 at 1:38 pm

    Damn RUBE!

    that Pense trade is one of the worst in PHILLY history now…giving away the FARM, so to speak, for a year and a half rental that netted us nothing.
    Singleton is a stud…Cosart is good.. and Santana…damn it…we get back a AA catcher

    • Manny

      July 31, 2012 at 1:40 pm

      and we already have a AA catcher in Valle… just the icing on the cake.

  22. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 31, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    @ Chuck
    Dc fans are the most clueless in sports.

    Every year they think the Redskins are going to be great.

    And Nats fans are just the same.

    But it doesnt mean they didnt do it right.
    Reminds me alot of the Rays.

    And they over come injuries.
    But it wont be this year. Your first time in the playoffs is never the year.
    But they will get a ring or two.

    • 1st_in_War

      July 31, 2012 at 2:13 pm

      Trust me. Very few of us ever think the ‘skins are going to be great. Whatever lingering notions of that happening died hard with the Jim Zorn years.

      The Nats, on the other hand…

  23. Manny

    July 31, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    So if it’s really 3 players… Nate Schierholtz, Tommy Joseph, and ? That third one better be someone valuable.

  24. Jeff Dowder

    July 31, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    Andrew Baggarly @CSNBaggs:

    “Giants expect to announce Pence deal shortly. Physical passed.”

  25. TheDipsy

    July 31, 2012 at 1:47 pm

    Nate Scheirholtz? Can we give them something back so they DON’T include that guy in the deal? Are we just gonna turn a flip for a warm six pack of Peals (real draft). Or Genny Cream Ale). This is what you get when you wait till the last minute and have 0 bargaining power. Could the other player be Melky Carbrera?

    The Dipsy

  26. Ryan H

    July 31, 2012 at 1:50 pm

    victorino and pence had to go. its a no brainer. absolutely no reason to keep either of them. you weren’t gonna resign vic (nor should they) and pence is clearly not going to be worth the investment of 14 or 15 mill next year. the only question is did they get anything in return? we’ll see. nobody knows. but nothing wrong with replenishing the farm system. it needs it

  27. The Original Chuck P

    July 31, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    We got something for Vic, which is good but trading Pence for sole purpose of freeing up cap space is disheartening. The return is iffy… Tommy Joseph is fine and Schierholtz is serviceable, I suppose, but you traded a top 25 prospect to get Pence and you’re not even getting a top 50 in return. You’re getting a young catching prospect who lacks contact skills and a 28 year-old major league back-up. Further, neither of these trades (Vic/Pence) will address the question, “Who will play third base next season?” We are going to have a huge hole at third base that cannot be fixed so losing Pence will hurt even more. I would rather see them throw a stop gap in the center field (JMJ or Jiwan James or Jason Pridie) and keep Pence. Looking at next year, you’re talking about a starting outfield of Dom Brown, Nate Schierholtz and a $7-9 million free-agent… a guy like Cody Ross. Now, tell me how that’s better than Brown, JMJ/Pridie/James and Pence?

    • Manny

      July 31, 2012 at 1:58 pm

      I agree with you Original…I’m ok with the Vic deal, we got something out of it at least (especially if there’s a PTBNL included)… but Pence’s deal looks like a legit salary dump.. There might be a 3rd player besides Schierholtz and Joseph.. but I’m not holding my breath. Centerpiece will be Joseph.. which is completely ridiculous.

      • The Original Chuck P

        July 31, 2012 at 2:09 pm

        They didn’t get enough, in my opinion but Pence’s $14 million next year was a deterrent for some so the suitors were limited. Not sure how many teams out there needed (or wanted) a $14 million RF next season. He’s a great fit for the Giants (the Giants were a good trading partner) and Joseph is the best prospect they’ve got… it’s a shame but the Giants just don’t have a great farm system right now.

        At first, I was pretty pissed about Tommy Joseph, the catcher, but I’m sort of warming up to Joseph, the player. He has power potential and he has the athleticism to play first or third. Maybe they convert him to third… I don’t know. He probably has more value as a catcher but I don’t think anyone would be ok with the Phillies letting Chooch go anytime soon.

        Still not a fan of Schierholtz.

  28. Tracey

    July 31, 2012 at 1:56 pm

    More trade rumors are surfacing. Phanatic to Colorado for a mascot to be named later. Ball girls to McDonalds for a Big Mac with extra sauce.

  29. Jeff Dowder

    July 31, 2012 at 1:57 pm

    Jerry Crasnick @jcrasnick:

    “Nate Schierholtz has been told by #SFGiants that he has been traded to #phillies in Pence package. “

  30. Chuck A.

    July 31, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    @Tom G – Pence deal is the worst in Phillies history?? You forgetting the Sandberg for Ivan DeJesus debacle??

    • loupossehl

      July 31, 2012 at 2:29 pm

      Another Phillies – Giants debacle: Jack Sanford to the Giants for Ruben Gomez and some other guy.

      “Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

  31. Pat Gallen

    July 31, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    Nationals fans storming the steed? Man, it must be 2012.

    • Lefty

      July 31, 2012 at 2:09 pm

      I noticed that something stunk in here, didn’t know if anyone else smelled it.

      • natsnatsnats

        July 31, 2012 at 3:29 pm

        Yeah, it’ the last place phillies! HAHA!

    • 1st_in_War

      July 31, 2012 at 3:25 pm

      Welcome to Nationals Nation North

    • Alex

      July 31, 2012 at 4:02 pm

      Leave it to the only two nationals fans in the world to land on here and post something… maybe they can start their own website

      • 1st_in_War

        July 31, 2012 at 4:13 pm

        Yeah, and let’s see what that phan base looks like after a last place finish. Probably not much different than how it looked when the Phillies use to occupy the cellar. 20,400 a game, 25th overall. Don’t worry though, you’ll get a boost when the perennial-contender Nats show up 9 times a year.

  32. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 31, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    When you are having a fire sale you dont get value at all for your stock.

    How did Ruben take a WS champion and the best farm system in baseball from Gillick and turn it into a team 17 games behind the Nationals in July?

    He has bungled this like he has bungled everything he has touched for years.
    How long is his leash?

    And didnt Shierholtz hit 2 bombs vs the Phillies not too long ago.
    superstar.

  33. Don M

    July 31, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    What would Carlos Beltran have cost last year instead of Pence?

    • The Original Chuck P

      July 31, 2012 at 2:19 pm

      Beltran cost the Giants their best pitching prospect, Zack Wheeler.

      Pence cost us our second best hitting prospect in Singleton (BA midseason #23 prospect) and one of our best pitching prospects in Cosart and a high ceiling 18 year old outfield prospect in Domingo Santana who is hitting .295 with 17 HR in high A ball (he hit .382 last season after being traded to the Astros).

      So, in hindsight, the Phillies traded wayyy too much to get Hunter Pence and then let him go for far too little…

      • Don M

        July 31, 2012 at 2:28 pm

        There was no chance they’d get the same return for 1.5 years of Pence as they gave up for 2.5 years of Pence

        I was on the record last year as wanting Beltran because I felt like he fit the offense better… but I don’t know that Singleton is an NL-player ….or that Cosart will be anything great.. we’ll see

  34. Lefty

    July 31, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Seth Rosin makes it a little better.

    • The Original Chuck P

      July 31, 2012 at 2:21 pm

      You’re joking, right? He’s a high A reliever… you’re telling me that’s the best we could do. Schierholtz (a back up OF who will start for us), Joseph (a catcher who is blocked) and a high A reliever who couldn’t cut it as a starter.

      • Don M

        July 31, 2012 at 2:29 pm

        Joseph is now the #1 position player in the organization according to someone on Twitter . . . so there’s that

      • Lefty

        July 31, 2012 at 2:29 pm

        No I’m quite serious. The third player makes it a little better, than just 2 players.

        I didn’t say it was a great deal, I said the third player makes it a little better.

      • psujoe

        July 31, 2012 at 2:38 pm

        I’m not crazy about the deal but Joseph instantly becomes a Phillies to 5 prospect. He just turned 21 2 weeks ago and is a top 10 cacthing propect in all of baseball so he’s not chopped liver. Jury still out on the reliever though.

  35. Chuck A.

    July 31, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    Schierholtz could be the next Jayson Werth. Late bloomer maybe? Who knows. And with Valle in the system Joseph COULD be flipped for a 3B…either Olt or in some package involving Headley? Still about an hour and a half left to keep dealing…

    • Jeff Dowder

      July 31, 2012 at 2:31 pm

      That “late bloomer” theory has worked out so well for the Phillies. Ben Francisco, JMJ, and now Schierholtz…

    • The Original Chuck P

      July 31, 2012 at 2:41 pm

      Funny… I didn’t know that Nate Schierholtz was related to two MLB veterans like Werth or that he was an injury bounce-back like Werth or that he had any talent like Werth.

      Let’s be honest… Schierholtz started 37 games with the Giants this year. At best, he’s going to hit 15-20 HR and steal 10 bases while hitting .275. He’s not a center fielder (at least he hasn’t been up to this point in his career). He doesn’t draw walks. He hits a lot of doubles in SF. He’s not a very effective base stealer. In my opinion, he’s a major league back-up and yet people here are suggesting that he is capable of starting every day for us. That is not acceptable, to me.

    • chuck schreiber

      July 31, 2012 at 9:35 pm

      And I’m the next Mike Schmidt.

  36. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 31, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    Interesting that the key aquisition is a catcher?

    Kratz for 2012 then the kid in 2013?

    Ruizs contract and status mean dealing him would bring back something. Although his age and history of head injuries probably devalue that.

    Hate to see him go. He is my all time favorite Phillie.
    But this is a sport. The players are your poker chips or stock.
    RAJ is learning the hard way.
    No emotional attachment. No favorites.
    You cant over pay for fan favorites or guys you like.

    OK who is next?
    Id love to see Lee go if that was possible.

  37. Jeff

    July 31, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    This just in..

    Dipsy was traded to Alaska for a polar bear.

  38. Jeff Dowder

    July 31, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    Mark Mulder @markmulder20:

    “I’m still surprised Hamels resigned with Philly. Where does his run support and defense come from over the rest of his contract?”

  39. TheDipsy

    July 31, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    Isn’t Seth Rosin that actor who was in “Knocked Up” and “Superbad”? The “Green Hornet”, too. The fat funny guy. I didn’t even know he played baseball. I’ll be damned. Well that makes the trade a little better. Is he gonna do skits with the Phanatic between innings?

    The Dipsy

  40. Jeff

    July 31, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    right on the money Chuck. I think we will get Headley. Do it Ruby

  41. George

    July 31, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    If you buy a Chevy at a Ferrari price, which is essentially what Amaro did in acquiring Pence, you’re just not going to be able to sell it for that same price. Given the market for overpaid outfielders that can’t judge fly balls, Amaro was damned lucky to get even what he did.

    And yes, Pence had to go. That likely $14+ million he’d be getting will go a long way toward filling other positions of need, like 3rd base.

    • The Original Chuck P

      July 31, 2012 at 3:30 pm

      Besides David Wright who will make a ton of money somewhere else (not here), there are no free agent third baseman on the market. $14 million is not going to plug that hole – there’s nothing to plug it with.

      • George

        July 31, 2012 at 4:21 pm

        It’s true that there are no spectacular free agent third basemen out there. But there are trade candidates. You can’t make a deal if a ton of your money is tied up in right field, unless you’re talking “prospect,” which wouldn’t be any help immediately. There will also be center fielders aplenty, which was going to be a need even if Victorino had been kept. Note that I did say “other POSITIONS of need,” not “other position of need.” Third base was just an example of one of those needs.

  42. Chuck A.

    July 31, 2012 at 2:41 pm

    @Jeff Dowder – Yeah, I realize that the “late bloomer” thing is flawed. Just trying to be positive about all of this.

  43. TheDipsy

    July 31, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    Throwing a bunch of those prospects over to San Diego would be sweet. Pence and Vic for Headley + a couple of good minor leaguers? Now? I’d a done it.

    The Dipsy

    • The Original Chuck P

      July 31, 2012 at 3:34 pm

      I like Headley… he’s a heady baseball player. He’s versatile and he is underrated but are you going to end up overpaying for Headley like you did for Pence? He’s a decent player with great peripheral numbers but is he worth his asking price (which is a lot of high level prospects)? The Yankees walked away for a reason…

  44. Jeff Dowder

    July 31, 2012 at 3:26 pm

    How does having two “catchers of the future” assigned to Reading impact their development? It seems that you’d want each of them to get as many PAs as possible.

  45. BART SHART

    July 31, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    Sh!tty moves by the Phils. We, as a team, are standing on the precipice of a deep second-division team for at least three years. We need to get accustomed to sub-500 years with little or nothing to get excited about. Damn shame. Our only hope is that our pitching gets better despite Halladay and Lee getting long of tooth, and Hamels stays healthy. Amaro crapped out and this was no more than a salary dump for Philly.

    Maybe we get an excellent prospect for Blanton…..Maybe.

    God in Heaven help us Phils fans !!!!!

    • Ryan H

      July 31, 2012 at 3:42 pm

      gimme a break. if everybody is healthy for a whole season next year: they could win the series. Halladay, Lee, and Hamels = always in contention. plus, a healthy howard for a full season could still produce 40 homers (easily, people forget this).

    • Andrew from Waldorf

      July 31, 2012 at 3:58 pm

      You nailed it Bart.
      Ive been talking till blue in the face about the Phillies decline for years now.
      The regression continues and next year looks bleaker than this.
      And thats if some miracle happens and all the geriatrics dont get hurt.

      The kool aid drinkers have to make you laugh though.

      The bottom line truth is until Ruben Amaro (and Charlie unfortunately) is gone this team is treading water.
      The guy who steered the Titanic into the ice burg is not the guy to steer you away from it in the future.

  46. Jeff Dowder

    July 31, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    Today makes having Papelbon even more of a luxury than when they signed him. There’s no way to move that contract though.

  47. cherry phil

    July 31, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    The Pence deal is absolutely shocking. He gets a 4/5th left handed hitting outfielder (worthless) an A ball reliever (worthless) and the Giants #2 prospect, a AA catcher (who is statistically almost the same as our top position prospect, a AA catcher). We are in serious trouble. Amaro should seriously be fired.

    • Jeff Dowder

      July 31, 2012 at 4:19 pm

      Most scouts like Joseph a lot more than Valle. A lot more.

    • chuck schreiber

      July 31, 2012 at 9:41 pm

      Joseph can also play first and third base. That could be his position on Philly in a couple of years (3b), Just saying. ????

  48. Manny

    July 31, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    Both Pence trades are hard to stomach. Ugh.

  49. Manny

    July 31, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    Pirates, Yankees Swap McGehee, Qualls

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/07/pirates-yankees-swap-mcgehee-qualls.html

    Our misery just keeps getting worse. Could’ve, would’ve, should’ve. Very upset with RAJ and the way he is managing this team.

    • The Original Chuck P

      July 31, 2012 at 4:55 pm

      A tremendous slap in the face to RAJ, there… the reliever you gave away for a bucket of balls is traded for a right handed third baseman.

    • George

      July 31, 2012 at 7:23 pm

      So what? A relief pitcher given up on by two teams in the same season brings in a third baseman who can barely play defense. I can’t get upset when teams swap crap.

      • chuck schreiber

        July 31, 2012 at 9:43 pm

        Aw but it puts Qualls back in NL. Do we play Pittsburgh anymore this year?? Batting practice.

  50. Jeff Dowder

    July 31, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    Hunter Pence @HunterPence3:

    “Thank you Philadelphia for all your support and passion. Excited to see what awaits me in San Francisco!”

  51. Alex

    July 31, 2012 at 4:27 pm

    Haha you realize you haven’t won shit yet right Nats fans?

  52. TheDipsy

    July 31, 2012 at 4:33 pm

    Where are Joe Blanton and Juan Pierre still on this team? Can someone please tell me?

    The Dipsy

    • Jeff Dowder

      July 31, 2012 at 5:50 pm

      Pierre is probably still here because of his clubhouse presence and the fact that Nix and Brown have had a lot of recent injury issues. From all accounts, the Phillies were just asking for too much in return for Blanton. It wouldn’t be surprising to see either one of them go before the waiver deadline (August 31) though.

      • George

        July 31, 2012 at 7:29 pm

        I’m not so sure the Phils asked too much for Blanton. From the names of the other pitchers Baltimore was targeting, I got the impression they only wanted someone if that someone only cost a bag of peanuts. They struck out on all of those guys, too.

  53. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 31, 2012 at 4:39 pm

    Fat Joe is inside the phanatic uniform on days he doesnt pitch.
    Saves money.

    And with all the outfielders gone I am guessing they need Pierre or they would have to go with only 2 outfielders some nights.

    I actually expect a little bit of a spark from this. Would not be suprised if they didnt play well the rest of the way.

    On the flip side they may continue to suck and finish 30 games out.

  54. Chuck A.

    July 31, 2012 at 4:45 pm

    AFW – Watch them make the freaking playoffs..

  55. grismundo

    July 31, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    It’s going to be nice not having to see Pence strike out swinging at balls over his head and missing routine fly balls on a daily basis, or Victorino’s ADHD nonsense in the dugout. No more of their annoying radio commercials either. Goodbye and good riddance. Two less cancers in the clubhouse. I was hoping they’d trade Lee too. Oh well, I just hope this is a wakeup call to the rest of the roster to get their s%#t together.

  56. Jeff

    July 31, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    Great post grismundo. Pence was horrible in the field. Also swinging at every pitch. Not clutch. Then watching Vic on the basepaths. What a nightmare. They needed to make these two moves. Clean it up.

  57. Chuck A.

    July 31, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    OCP – McGehee is nothing special. Really not worth being upset about that.

  58. Bruce

    July 31, 2012 at 5:17 pm

    It’s sad to see Victorino and Pence go. I’m sure his teammates are feeling the same. I would think the team also felt as if they were slapped in the face in regards to two months of baseball left in the season. The implication being to forget about this season and just play out the string.

    No matter how our writers sugarcoats these two trades, it’s still basically a salary dump as some posters commented here. My first impression is that we received just one valid player that would be of immediate help in the bullpen , righthanded reliever, Josh Lindblom who comes from LA Dodgers in the Victorino trade. That’s basically it for this season.

    The Phillies have lost two thirds of their regulars in the outfeld. Who fills in and what position they play remains to be seen. Domonic Brown is an unproven player who last year disappointed the manager with his hitting and defensive fielding in the OF and was DEMOTED to the minors and Amaro to make a trade for Pence. Is Mayberry Jr now the regular centerfielder? Oh my goodness!

    What a revoltin’ development this is…. 😉

    • schmenkman

      July 31, 2012 at 6:03 pm

      I don’t remember anyone with the Phillies being disappointed with Brown’s hitting. He hit at the league average, and as well as the average NL leftfielder. Perfectly fine for a 23 yo rookie.

  59. Chuck A.

    July 31, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    No, Bruce…this was a NECESSARY development. And the re-tooling of the team is far from over. Let’s wait and give it all some time before we rush to judgement.

    • George

      July 31, 2012 at 6:47 pm

      Absolutely agree, Chuck. Finances would have been a disaster had they kept Pence. Now there’s room to add, and/or prospects to flip. The retooling is definitely not over.

  60. Andrew from Waldorf

    July 31, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    @ Chuck A

    Its too far to make the playoffs. But can spoil. Starting with winning 2 of these 3 with the Nats. Or maybe sweeping them.

    For me my biggest worry is Doc.
    Lots of innings on that arm.

    Really a shame they didnt get a WS for him in 2010 or 2011. But wasnt his fault.
    Just one year ago he was easily the best pitcher in the sport.
    Not close at this point.
    Definately would not push him alot the rest of the way.
    The overuse in 2011 is catching up with him and Lee. That and thier age and career IP. .

  61. Chuck A.

    July 31, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    Uhhh… AFW – my comment was a joke, dude.

  62. psujoe

    July 31, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    I like the deals. Joseph was the Giants #2 prospect and probably ranked higher than Cosart and Sanatana. Just bothered they let money get in the way of dealing Blanton. he my not clear waivers.

  63. "Big Ed" Delahanty

    July 31, 2012 at 9:39 pm

    To the Nats fans who invaded our blog: Look at the scoreboard, 6-0 in favor of the Phils, as I write this. Go away.

    I do not think we can judge the trades as of yet, and I agree with others that the team is not done retooling either, but at least we are under the luxury tax and now have money to acquire free agents to try to fill our holes.

    Thanks for your efforts Sane and Hunter! Best of luck with your new teams. Time to see what Dom Brown and Mayberry really have.

    Glad we kept Juan Pierre, as his performance tonight confirms that. Lee pitching well, and Frandsen looking good defensively and offensively at third tonight.

    And stay away from my inside the park home run record, Jimmy.
    -Ed Delahanty

  64. chuck schreiber

    July 31, 2012 at 9:49 pm

    Can’t wait to see Hunter in that huge outfield in SF. That should give us some real laughs.

  65. Lisa

    July 31, 2012 at 10:09 pm

    Phillie once, Phillies’ forever.

  66. "Big Ed" Delahanty

    August 1, 2012 at 9:25 am

    @AFW: I still cannot stop laughing at your comment about Blanton in the Phanatic suit – hysterical!!

  67. The Sarge

    August 1, 2012 at 1:58 pm

    I know you can’t get enough of the Sarge!

    Follow him on Twitter @the_sarge36

    Oh My!! It’s cadillac time!!

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