Gameday: Phillies (78-79) vs. Marlins (67-90) – Phillies Nation
2012 Gameday

Gameday: Phillies (78-79) vs. Marlins (67-90)

Philadelphia Phillies vs. Miami Marlins

Time: 7:10 PM, Marlins Park
Weather: Partly Cloudy, 80
Media: Twitter and Facebook

Ryan Howard is officially out for the remainder of the regular season due to a broken toe he suffered when he dropped a lead pipe on it in the on-deck circle; the one he swings as he prepares for an at bat. That adds more injury to injury and insult, a terrible way to end a season for a guy who struggled to get it going after being sidelined several months following achillies tendon surgery.

The broken toe will not affect his offseason workouts as he prepares to come back and be the Big Piece of old in 2013. The Phillies will need that as he’ll be in just the second year of a contract paying him $25 million.

As for tonight’s matchup, Roy Halladay makes his final start of the season against Ricky Nolasco.

Darin Ruf makes his first ever start at first base.

Your Gameday BeerWeyebacher Imperial Pumpkin Ale

You wanna get popped? Weyerbacher Pumkin Ale will getcha. It’s 8.0% ABV, but pours a beautiful reddish-orange color, so it’s a deceiving redhead. Lovely, but will punch your face. It’s another pumpkin beer with a heavy allspice presence, which is a bit too much for my liking. However, it’s one of the best . – Pat Gallen


Click to comment


  1. chuck schreiber

    September 29, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    Dropped that pipe on his toe, just like lefthanded pitchers drop that breaking ball about toe high and outside as he swings 2 feet overtop of it. Christ!!!

    • Chuck A.

      September 29, 2012 at 6:35 pm

      And just like he somehow managed….AS HE’S STILL RECOVERING FROM A TORN ACHILLES ….14HR and 56 RBI in 292 Plate appearances. Yeah…Christ.

  2. Ken Bland

    September 29, 2012 at 6:22 pm

    I had occasion to review my pre season baseball sentiments today, which involved Jamie Moyer, amongst other topics. I guess it was by the end of May that he was exited from the Rox, and ariund the al-star break or so, I remember spotting a time I thought he’d actually do well to have a pc, and say so long.

    He didn’t, and amazingly STILL hasn’t.

    And knowing the way he is, he’s probably worked out all this time, and is still in as good a shape as he was during his fraction of a season.

    It’d be a nice way to say goodbye if he was signed to pitch the Tuesday night mystery.

    Won’t happen, but it’s a cheerful thought.

    • Tracey

      September 29, 2012 at 7:30 pm

      Yeah, it would be nice if, like Pat Burrell, he could end his career as a Phillie. He’s a hometown boy and a life-long Phillies fan. And who knows? Maybe he could get another win on Tuesday and break his own oldest-pitcher-to-win record. 🙂

  3. Ken Bland

    September 29, 2012 at 6:54 pm

    What would your guess be from memory as to how many pitchers the Phils used this year compared to a year ago? Considering the wave of pen injuries, instinct would suggest more this year. The Phils have used 23 pitchers this year. Last year, they used 22. Won a lot more games, too, although pitching is at best the most important criteria, not the only one. But it speaks to tyhe greatness of 102 wins in ’11 to go through a pitching roster like that, and win 102.

    Course the past 2 years, there have been a lot of aged pitchers, and chronology = injury liklihood. The 1976 club, more on the way into it’s prime than on the downhill slide only used 11 pitchers, but they had some vets on that club as well, including Jim Kaat. That club won 101.

  4. Tracey

    September 29, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    OK, how badly does Doc have to eff this up before they pull him?

  5. Tracey

    September 29, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    Doc is already at 30 pitches.

  6. brooks

    September 29, 2012 at 7:45 pm

    Doc is toasted, should not be pitching tonight or any other game this season

  7. Tracey

    September 29, 2012 at 7:56 pm

    Ooo… we’re not dead yet!
    (not dead in this game; I know we’re dead for the season)

  8. Tracey

    September 29, 2012 at 7:57 pm

    @Brooks: A friend of mine was saying that this is the stupidest thing they could possibly do. This game means nothing, but Halladay could get injured by pitching in it in an uncertain condition, and it might scratch him for the entire next season.

  9. brooks

    September 29, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    I dont know why he’s pitching either. There is nothing to prove, nothing to be gained. If he cannot recognize that he is damaged, he should be told.

  10. brooks

    September 29, 2012 at 8:23 pm

    Giancarlo Stanton is a beast at the plate but definitely one of the worst outfielders I have ever seen.

    • chuck schreiber

      September 29, 2012 at 9:52 pm

      Worst than Pence??

  11. brooks

    September 29, 2012 at 8:27 pm

    Isn’t anyone else done with the D Brown experiment?

  12. frank

    September 29, 2012 at 8:29 pm

    Even if doc does not give up another hit tonight this was wrong to let him throw. It doesn’t matter what so called experts say. He is hurt and probably has been hurt all year. If he still had a few years left on his contract there is no way he would pitch. The phillies would want to protect their investment. Instead with one year left on his contract they know that shoulder injuries are a long term problem and I believe they are letting him pitch to hopefully prove to himself and other experts that he is o.k. would they handle Cole like this. I really hope for his sake that he is going to be o.k. hes worked so hard his entire career. A lot of players don’t win rings but he deserves as much as anyone ever has to win.

  13. brooks

    September 29, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    Isn’t anyone else done with the D Brown experiment?
    Man just does not have ML savvy

  14. Tracey

    September 29, 2012 at 8:46 pm


  15. Tracey

    September 29, 2012 at 8:48 pm


  16. brooks

    September 29, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    Would you look at that?
    I really love it when I am wrong

    • Devin

      September 29, 2012 at 9:01 pm

      Dom Brown has made some great adjustments this season. He’s a young player, be patient. Being “done with the experiment” is the kind of thing that makes Philly fans look bad, dude.

      .240 .325 .409

      Those numbers, they aren’t great. But look at the difference between the Average and OBP. That’s a patient hitter who takes a lot of walks and makes pitchers throw a LOT of pitches. Look at that SLG. That SLG gives him a very respectable ISO of .170 (ISO, for very many reasons, is a better indication of power than SLG is).

      Be patient. He’s a young guy, but he’s hitting as well as or better than Mayberry and is younger. He’s also got the best outfield arm that Philly has had in a very long time (much better than Werth, Pence, or Victorino). That average? It’s going to go up when he finally gets to be an every day player for a complete season. That’s unavoidable. If Domonic Brown can hit .260 with the same power he will be one of the better corner OF in the league.

      • Devin

        September 29, 2012 at 9:02 pm

        Also, how often do you see guys hit standing triples that are fielded cleanly? Dude has 30 bag speed if you put him in a situation where he can afford to be aggressive.

      • brooks

        September 29, 2012 at 9:19 pm

        Those numbers, they aren’t great – really?
        How about 3 years combined with 414 ML atbats, a .237 batting average and 12 homeruns in those 3 years.
        Dude, you can speculate all you want and a bone keeps the dogs happy once in a while but seriously – what else do you think we can get from this guy that we haven’t already seen?

      • EricL

        September 29, 2012 at 9:33 pm

        Brooks, 414 AB is less than one full ML season. And those AB were spread between Brown’s age 22, 23 and 24 seasons. He’s a young guy still adjusting to major league pitchers, but he’s always hit at every level he’s played. He’s got speed, he’s got power, he’s got a great arm, and he’s got a good eye. These are things that, if they come together as he matures, can make a very, very good baseball player.

        Stop the hate, yo.

  17. Tracey

    September 29, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    WOW!!! AMAZING play by Ruf!!!

  18. brooks

    September 29, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    Is Doc going to let it fall apart now? Say it aint so

  19. brooks

    September 29, 2012 at 9:47 pm

    Eric – why would you say hate? I have been seeking the gold treasure that was promised in Dom Brown since before he came up. I was sold on a solid 5 tool player – all the way – and have seen opportunity in front of him time and time again –
    It still may happen but, how many chances do you get?

    • Devin

      September 29, 2012 at 9:55 pm

      How about one real chance without getting jerked around for no reason? How about one complete season in the majors?

      • Devin

        September 29, 2012 at 9:56 pm

        “Let’s crush talented young players with unrealistic expectations and then abandon them when they don’t immediately meet those expectations!” – Brooks.

        Guys like you are the loudest Philly fans and you make the rest of us want to hide our faces when you start yelling your BS.

      • brooks

        September 29, 2012 at 10:04 pm

        Devlin, I don’t know who you’re quoting and don’t really give a rats ass – I go to the games and see what I see. I’m not loud and obnoxious, I just know as much as we want to love Dom Brown, so far nothing has come of it.

        I do not have a say if he is going to be given a full season to play, I’ll watch but certainly will not have false expectations.

      • Chuck A.

        September 29, 2012 at 10:09 pm

        Hey Devin.. How long have you been posting on here?? Ehhh… never mind. Doesn’t really matter. But Brooks has a point.. …Look… Brown certainly didn’t make a great case for himself last year when he couldn’t field worth a sh!t both at the MLB level and at LV. However…. I agree that we need to see him for a full season…. without being “jerked around”. I’m not convinced either. But I’m willing to be patient for one more year.

      • Devin

        September 29, 2012 at 10:10 pm

        I was quoting your thoughts, basically. Oh, here’s another great stat:

        .239 .322 .373

        .240 .328 .409

        One of those sets of numbers is Chase Utley, age 25. The other one is Dom Brown, this year. Age 25. So according to your brilliant logic we should have given up on the Chase Utley experiment. Nice thinking.

      • Tracey

        September 29, 2012 at 10:11 pm

        Devin and Eric: Brooks is certainly not a blind hater. There are plenty of those around here, but Brooks is not one of them. If you think Brooks is like that, tnen you are either a troll or not paying attention. And if you’re the former, just a word of warning: I try to avoid feeding the trolls.

      • Chuck A.

        September 29, 2012 at 10:19 pm

        That’s ok, Tracey… I’m pretty sure this is the same Devin who accused me of not knowing anything a week and a half ago when I said that the Eagles had a better chance of beating the Ravens than the Phillies did making the postseason…..

      • Devin

        September 29, 2012 at 10:20 pm

        Tracey, it’s entirely possible I’m reacting too strongly. But you’re wrong about being a blind hater. It is impossible to have an opinion on Brown, in EITHER direction, and have it not be a blind opinion. You love him you do so blindly, you hate him you do so blindly. We haven’t seen what he can do yet. All opinions on Dom Brown right now are blind except “He’s a great minor league hitter” “He takes walks VERY well at every level” and “He has a cannon for an arm and good speed.” Calling the experiment over is ridiculous and ignorant. The experiment hasn’t begun yet.

      • Devin

        September 29, 2012 at 10:22 pm

        Chuck – I accused you of not knowing anything about football for drawing conclusions about teams based on only one game. Then the Eagles beat the Ravens, proving that you had been wrong. Totally willing to believe you know your baseball, until the day you start drawing conclusions about the whole season from game one.

      • Chuck A.

        September 29, 2012 at 10:28 pm

        No. It proves I’m right. The Eagles WON the game. And the Phillies aren’t in the playoffs. Not sure where you’re getting your logic but, at this point, I really don’t care. I’m done arguing with someone who makes no sense.

      • Devin

        September 29, 2012 at 10:30 pm

        I think you must have misunderstood me, because I wasn’t trying to say the Phils were going to make the playoffs. I was trying to say that saying “the Phils have less chance of making the playoffs than the Eagles have of beating the Ravens” was a completely meaningless statement. It’s like if I said “My dad has a better chance of jumping over a car than Dennis Rodman has of getting a haircut today”. You took two totally unrelated events and made a meaningless statement out of them.

      • Chuck A.

        September 29, 2012 at 10:40 pm

        It’s not a meaningless statement if it’s based on logic and, ultimately, fact. What I said was true …. IT HAPPENED…. and HAD A VERY GOOD CHANCE OF TURNING OUT THAT WAY. I’m not sure what your definition of meaningless is but you may want to look into that.

      • Devin

        September 29, 2012 at 10:41 pm

        Rather than continuing to argue, I’ll just point to further down the thread where I apologized for the way in which I went about making my point and simply agree to disagree.

    • Devin

      September 29, 2012 at 10:14 pm

      Hey Chuck, I’ve been posting on here for a few weeks, lurking for most of this season. Didn’t really start coming to this place until Crossing Broad turned into TMZ.

      I just get really fired up about Dom Brown. Look at the Utley comparison I posted earlier. At 25 years old Dom Brown is a better player than Chase Utley at the same age, yet people who love Chase are willing to throw him under the bus for exactly no reason. He is the Future of some team. I hope that he’s the Future of the Phillies, but if people continue to hate on him like they are they’re gonna run him out of town and he’s going to kick our ass for years to come.

      • brooks

        September 29, 2012 at 10:45 pm

        Comparing Brown to Utley makes sense. Sure.
        Lets see at 25 years old, Utley had 134 ML atbats in his first ML season. His next year he was up to .266 and the rest is history. Chase certainly did not come to the ML with the same credentials as Dom Brown but also did not play for 3 years before displaying some improvement at the plate.
        Not a good comparison, dude.

      • Devin

        September 29, 2012 at 10:50 pm

        Well first let me say that I made a mistake and those numbers were Chase’s age 24 season. Second, let me add that Dom Browns OBP this year is higher than Chase’s the year he hit .266.

        Finally let me add that I’m not trying to say that Brown will be as good as Chase. I’m trying to say that if, the season Chase hit .239 people had decided they were done with him, we never would have seen Chase Utley how he is now. Baseball is the sport of patience. You can’t be in a hurry to write off young players.

  20. Tracey

    September 29, 2012 at 10:04 pm

    (tuning back in to the game….)
    Are we still winning? … YES!!! WE’RE STILL WINNING!!!!


  21. Tracey

    September 29, 2012 at 10:08 pm

    Woo hoo! Still scoring!!!

    (sheesh, where was this offense back in the Houston series?)

  22. brooks

    September 29, 2012 at 10:09 pm

    Houston, Atlanta…
    Hey, Chase is taking it to them!

  23. brooks

    September 29, 2012 at 10:12 pm

    Check out the double steal – sweet day. Jimmy is over .250 – it may not last for the remainder of the season but its good to see.

  24. brooks

    September 29, 2012 at 10:20 pm

    You’re kidding right?

  25. Tracey

    September 29, 2012 at 10:33 pm

    Ruh roh…

    • Devin

      September 29, 2012 at 10:35 pm

      Is Bastardo having a bad year, or was last year the fluke? It drives me crazy not knowing what we have in this guy. 2 full seasons in the majors with nothing in common.

  26. Tracey

    September 29, 2012 at 10:35 pm

    HAHAHA! It ain’t pretty, but it works.

  27. Devin

    September 29, 2012 at 10:40 pm

    In any case, Chuck, while I still think that I made a correct point, I do want to apologize for the manner in which I made it. Much like Dom Brown, pessimism is something that fires me up, and I made an ass of myself in the way that I pointed it out.

    • Chuck A.

      September 29, 2012 at 10:43 pm

      Whatever… let’s let it go. Apology accepted. I’m all for supporting Brown and giving him the proper chance. One full year at the MLB level. Then we can debate it better. Go Phils!

      • Chuck A.

        September 29, 2012 at 10:47 pm

        Been awhile since I’ve had a “spirited” discussion with someone on here. It’s been kinda dead lately. I enjoyed it. Thanks for that. The one thing about PN and a few other sites….we’re all Phillies fans. We have that in common and it’s a place where we can come to vent, argue, commiserate, cheer, whatever. It’s a great thing.

    • Chuck A.

      September 29, 2012 at 10:48 pm

      Oops. Meant to reply to you…not myself.

      • Devin

        September 29, 2012 at 10:52 pm

        Well I’ll try not to bring too much spirit, but I agree: whether or not I’m agreeing with them, it’s always nice to be having a conversation with people who care enough about the Phils to even bother arguing.

      • Chuck A.

        September 29, 2012 at 10:57 pm

        Exactly. It’s amazing how so many people have just checked out. Why?? What for?? After Wednesday at about 4PM there won’t be any Phillies baseball for 5 months. Yeah, we’ll all continue to talk about the future of the team during the off-season but it’s just not the same.

      • Devin

        September 29, 2012 at 11:00 pm

        The guys who have checked out now are the same guys who didn’t check in until October ’08, mostly.

  28. Cs

    September 29, 2012 at 10:40 pm

    Bastardo needs to start next year at AAA, regardless of what he does in Spring Training. I’m over him.

    • EricL

      September 29, 2012 at 11:17 pm


      Since August 1st Bastardo has pitched 14 2/3 innings. He’s given up 10 hits, 5 walks, and struck out 30(!!) batters.

      Going back to June 1st, he’s pitched 34 1/3 innings, giving up 30 hits, 16 walks and 60(!!) strikeouts.

      The guy is a little more wild than would be ideal, but he’s averaging 14.3 strikeouts per nine innings this season. His strikeout to walk ratio is better this year than it was last. Opponents are batting .207 off of him, have a .300 OBP, and have a .689 OPS, which is about 20% better than league average, and he’s especially nasty against lefties who have put up a slash line of .173/.244/.321. Simply put, Bastardo is an excellent relief pitcher, and probably the second best option out of the pen behind Papelbon.

      Sending him to the minors would be absolutely insane.

      • Chuck A.

        September 29, 2012 at 11:25 pm

        Look at the very first comment on the thread and you’ll see something else that’s insane. cs. chuck schreiber. Pretty sure it’s the same dude making dumb statements.

  29. brooks

    September 29, 2012 at 11:04 pm

    Papelbum in a non-save situation. Always a trip?
    Chuck, looks like the O’s and Yanks are tied again. Buck for AL MOY?

    • Chuck A.

      September 29, 2012 at 11:09 pm

      Definitely MOY material.

      This game blows…c’mon Papsmear…. get this bum out already.

    • schmenkman

      September 30, 2012 at 3:59 am

      “Always a trip?”. This year he’s had some problems. For his career, he’s pitched equally well in save and non-save situations.

      • Brooks

        September 30, 2012 at 7:04 am

        Yes, for some reason (as has been stated on this blog by others more specific some of the authors of this site), THIS YEAR when Papelbon has come into a game in a non-save situation, the results have been uncanny.

      • schmenkman

        September 30, 2012 at 9:21 am

        1.52 ERA in save situations, 3.29 in non-save sits. Not great but not terrible.

  30. Tracey

    September 29, 2012 at 11:07 pm

    Ruh Roh Part Deux…

  31. Brooks

    September 29, 2012 at 11:08 pm

    Crap, its the Beast…

  32. Tracey

    September 29, 2012 at 11:11 pm


  33. Tracey

    September 29, 2012 at 11:12 pm

    Harry started singing High Hopes early… is it a bug or a prophecy? Hmn…

  34. Tracey

    September 29, 2012 at 11:14 pm

    WHEW!!! PHILS WIN!!!!

    But not really any reason to sing High Hopes at this point in the season anyway…

    • Tracey

      September 29, 2012 at 11:14 pm

      High hopes for an over .500 season, maybe? That’s still far from certain…

  35. Ken Bland

    September 29, 2012 at 11:22 pm

    The proper way to end this season would be for Cliff Lee to start the final game, pitch well, get his ERA under 3, and get pulled. Roy Halladay decides he STILL needs to pitch ONE MORE TIME comes in, and gets a win. Doc would finish 12-8, Cliff 6-8. That would just say it all for 2012.

  36. Ken Bland

    September 30, 2012 at 8:43 am

    Quote of the Week…

    “Ryan Howard’s best years are ahead of him.”

    – Charlie Manuel, September 29, 2012

    Specifically, Charlie mentioned .275-.300, AT LEAST 40 and 130. The funny thing about that is Charlie mentioned some needed “tweaking” including not trying to hit homers. Funny thing about Howard is that 2 or 3 winters ago, he worked with Barry Bonds, maybe the game’s most textbook hitter since Ted Williams. If RyHo’s pitch selectivity has improved since then, it’s news to the naked eye. Peope keep marvelling at his lofty performance with men on, leading to more than respectable RBI and batting average digits. That situation, which reduces defensive shifts in effectiveness still seems to have him stuck in singular approach when he DOESN’T hit with RISP, and the combination of poor pitch selection, trying to kill the ball, and effective defensive allignment leads to overall pretty average offensive performance on the whole.

    Is it possible that Piece’s best years ahead wish is doable at a starting point of his age 33 season? Well, David Ortiz rebuilt his fear factor late in baseball life. But best years ahead?
    Not to quibble with greatness being greatness, but Ryan Howard set a barometer of ridiculously high with his early years. Most people would take three quarters of that. Any right thinking stock analyst would at best have a hold on Howard. Let Charlie do the buying.

  37. Ken Bland

    September 30, 2012 at 8:50 am

    More from the quote of the week pool of material…long time baseball scribe, Bill Madden

    “I certainly get that Trout’s speed is an important component in this debate. But this growing infatuation with WAR (wins above replacement) is, in my opinion, turning baseball into an inhuman board game. This is a stat that even its inventors can’t agree on an established formula, other than when all of these various factors of offense and defense are put into a blender and shaken well, out comes the player’s value to a team in wins above and beyond the “replacement” value of a player taken off the waiver wire for nothing. In other words, one big hypothetical.”

    • Lefty

      September 30, 2012 at 9:19 am

      I’m not saying the guy is right or wrong. I look at it like this. If the same formula is used for every player, whether you consider it legit or not, if the same process is used, then for comparison purposes, it’s a great tool.

      Yes BBRef, fangraphs, and Baseball Prospectus with their “WARP” all do it differently, but even if you use all three on the same player, you come to basically the same conclusions about them.

      The thing to remember is that WAR is not a stat. Let me repeat that because I think that’s where it fails people, it is a number, but not a statistic. I think if people can wrap their head around that (not picking on you Ken, you just quoted the other guy) If people can understand that it’s not a stat, but a comparative tool, they might just find it a very useful one.

      For the record I’m not sold on non winning teams having MVP’s and so I don’t want Dickey to win, but if the Tigers hold on, and the Angels don’t make it, Cabrera is a no doubter, probably is anyway. And I love Trout, but he has his own award this year anyway.

      • Ken Bland

        September 30, 2012 at 9:42 am

        “For the record I’m not sold on non winning teams having MVP’s and so I don’t want Dickey to win, but if the Tigers hold on, and the Angels don’t make it, Cabrera is a no doubter”

        Did you misread something? He’s talking Dickey for CY, Cabrera for MVP. I get the losing team MVP disapproval (I’m much the same), but I separate losing for the CY. Maybe you see it differently?

        I haven’t really thought much about the CY, and I only know this about the AL MVP choice. It is a brutal decision. Especially since those 2 have Pujols and Prince alongside, and essentially, both contenders have dwarfed the reasonably strong years that their teamates have put up.

      • Lefty

        September 30, 2012 at 10:04 am

        I meant not sold on non winning teams for “awards”

      • Ken Bland

        September 30, 2012 at 11:27 am

        Well, that’s fine, your perrogative. Had they called it a Most Valuble Pitcher in 1972, I might not have been quite as inin favor of Carlton winning the CY. But I usually take that Valuble part of the award literally, so more often than not, I would support a winning team player, although I see creedence in where would the Crew be without Braun, the Bucs without McCutcheon, and the Phils without Mini Mart.

        Can we get that boy over .200, or what?

      • Lefty

        September 30, 2012 at 11:46 am

        If I had no dog in the fight, I could make a case for Blass, Seaver, Sutton or Jenkins in 72, all of whom pitched on teams with winning records. But my avatar would never forgive me, so I won’t.

        Mini Mart should be given an MVP, by his family, for making so much money with so little talent. We can put him down all we want, but speaking for myself, I know I’ll never 480,000 a year. It’s almost criminal you know.

      • Ken Bland

        September 30, 2012 at 12:19 pm

        I’ve made 480k, and believe me, it’s no big deal. The tax bite is horrific. They try to gauge you at any checkout counter ranging from the grocery store (LaChoy chow mein noodles were 1.09 a pack a couple years ago, now, that delightful treat…relative that it might be since the HoSai Gai is now too many miles to travel to) is 1.58 per. By the way, the 480K I’ve made is over the course of a lifetime, not Mini Mart’s 6 month collection sum. But someday…..

      • Chuck A.

        September 30, 2012 at 12:24 pm

        So then….how much did MiniMart make last night for that piss-poor bunt attempt??

      • Ken Bland

        September 30, 2012 at 12:51 pm

        I think his pay based on time played, and at bats and all equates to him getting 4,000 dollars per at bat. Maybe its more like 3.985.00, if you really care.

        Funny thing is Mini got paid that about 4k per the time when he was intentionally walked. That at bat is ESPN Classic material. You just won’t see that play too often in baseball. And he got paid about 4 grand for that!

        It pays to answer rhetorical questions. Even uf I didn’t make 4 grand.

      • George

        September 30, 2012 at 4:20 pm

        I have nothing against awards going to players on non-contenders. For instance, 1972, when Carlton took the Cy Young, he was positively the best pitcher, if only because he was pitching for an absolutely abominable team. He also led in all kinds of categories besides wins. How could anyone possibly win 27 games when the team only won 31 others when he wasn’t pitching? One could argue that he was even the MVP that year, because without him the team might have set new records for futility.

        There are, indeed cases where a player is so valuable to his team that they should win MVP even if they’re out of the playoff picture. If a player’s performance brings a third rate team close, is that any less valuable than a player who merely makes a great team somewhat better?

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  39. Ken Bland

    September 30, 2012 at 12:45 pm

    Time now for some thinking out loud action.

    The old what the hell is he wasting his time for mode, if you will.

    Even in Peking, Bolivia, and downtown Lisbon, they know the Phils have a 2013 3rd baseman dilemma. Worst still, they are equally knowledgable that the problem isn’t as solvable as when Don Hoak was still on this side of the planet’s surface, and the headline screamed Mauch:Hoak was the One I Always Wanted.

    So what, preytell, is an Amaro to do for 2013?

    I don’t know who the most provincial baseball fans across this land are, but it’s amazing how each market’s fans so often come across like their club is the only one in the problems they face. Reading the NY papers in recent times might shock Phillie fans to know that even the big bad Yankees have RISP at bat problems. And naturally, the target is 1 individual, much the same as Jayson Werth was blamed a couple years ago, even though he had company.
    Say hello to Alex Rodriguez.

    Your first reaction to the name Alex Rodriguez is a definitive negative. Steroid cheat, generally thought of as a jerk, and most certainly past his prime. Exactly what the Yankees were thinking when he tried to upstage the World Series one year by announcing he was free agency bound right in the middle of a pitch, who knows. Ruben Amaro has often stated, “We’re not the New York Yankees.” Maybe the Yankees were out to prove they ARE the New York Yankees with one single payday. Who knows.

    It’s possible the Yanks win it all this year, giving Joe Girardi the chance to change uniform numbers again, recognizing the franchise’s world championship total through that numerical increase. But it’s not unthinkable that they actually might not make the playoffs. Even a playoff berth and fast exit is gonna quite likely fall on Alex Rodriguez. And they have 5 more years left of high pay, even if the homer clauses that celebrate his catching the all time toppers are omitted.

    Perhaps Alex is actually thought of as an okay guy inside the Yankee chubhouse, despite his public image that turns negative quickly and vociferously every time he says or does something stupid. But it’s also possible the Yanks are that much closer to wanting to rid theselves of this guy.

    He’s not the player he was, let alone definite good guy that you’d want on your roster. How much would the Yanks be willing to absorb is a major question, but it wouldn’t be shocking to see the uncovered part almost represnt value. Is he not a better investment at 8-10 mil a year than many and any of the names bandied about for third base coverage next year? When is the last time a Phillie third baseman hit 20 homers? You aren’t solving an age problem in sticking a righty sometimes power bat between Utley and Howard, but there are no youthful solutions out there anyway. You pay him the 40 mil of your share of the contract, and hope for 2 good years by normal MLB standards, and take your chances on what to do about the other 3 years, and you have only modestly overpaid for the 2 years.

    It’s not a great solution, but in the unimpressive list of 3B choices, it’s not totally off the wall.
    Well, maybe it’s fast approaching the warning track enroute to off the wall, but I wouldn’t mind Amaro and company at least giving it some thought. Roger Maris exited NYC to find a happy, winning end to his career with the Cardinals, just maybe Alex could pursue a similar course here.

    • Lefty

      September 30, 2012 at 1:03 pm

      Thinking out loud gets me in trouble, but I encourage it from everyone else!

      I had a long answer prepared about declining health and age without the aid of the juice, but I still have some things to do before the game, so I’ll just politely weigh in and say, I wouldn’t advise they go that direction. ( as if anyone in the FO would actually listen to my advice right?)

      • Ken Bland

        September 30, 2012 at 2:15 pm

        Wanna make clear I’m encouraging due dilligence on the impossibility, not just automatically pursuing it. Guys have late stage Indian summers, maybe a couple Phillie scouts think he’s a candidate. Prolly not, but not my place to say. I’d advise, or at least suggest is more like it, that they consider that step. I’m assuming Asche is at least a year away. Not well versed on his growth..

  40. schmenkman

    September 30, 2012 at 1:29 pm

    On that Trout-Cabrera discussion, what Bill Madden doesn’t seem to realize is that you don’t need WAR to see that Trout has been better than Cabrera this year. WAR adds contributions from all facets of the game into a single handy number, but that’s not really necessary in this case.

    Offensively, they are nearly the same player, although they provide value in different ways.

    OBP: essentially the same (Trout .393, Cabrera .391)
    SLG: Cabrera is higher (Trout .555, Cabrera .604)
    So Cabrera has the somewhat higher OPS, .995 to .948.

    However OPS doesn’t include basestealing, and in that of course there is no comparison (Trout 47 steals in 51 attempts, Cabrera 4 for 5), and Trout is the much better base runner in general

    Their wOBA, which does include steals, is essentially the same: Trout .417, Cabrera .415

    We won’t get into the fact that Cabrera plays in a more hitter-friendly park, which we can also adjust for.

    So just stopping right there, if you’re given a choice of two identical offensive players, and one plays the outfield like Mike Trout, and the other plays third base like Miguel Cabrera, which would you choose?

    • Ken Bland

      September 30, 2012 at 2:11 pm

      You have to go with Trout. But even if the Triple Crown is niot really what it’s historically considered, it’s kind of amazing that a guy could have a year like Cabrera and not win the award, and also comes up nominally short if we forget Valuble, and are just selecting a Player of the Year. But, I guess every year has a second place finisher that could win that, or any award, for that matter, and not that the guy’s getting screwed, but in a position to be amazed that his year was 2nd best.

      And on top of that, I respect Cabrera a lot for what would seem to be effectively playing past a drinking problem that peaked 2 spring trainings ago when he was ticketed for some crazy driving speed. You can’t say his performance shows he’s licked it, but it would seem that way.
      And of course, that’s not a factor at all, just a reason to root for him, as Trout also brings forth with his youthful exuberance.

      Great years for both, and while the Halos are hanging by a hair on post season hopes, Trout’s the one. Can’t hardly overlook the baserunning and defensive factors. Huuuuge separators.

    • Lefty

      September 30, 2012 at 2:58 pm

      I love Mike Trout. I drafted him and he nearly won my league for me single handedly- okay that’s an exaggeration, but he changed my whole season around for sure. Absolutely great season.

      The voting members will give it to Miggy, I guarantee it.
      A) Because they don’t know/care about advanced stats
      B) Because there hasn’t been a triple crown winner, or even a legit threat in 45 years.
      C) They don’t value SB’s and defense enough.
      D) They’ll say Trout’s getting AL ROY, and say he doesn’t need both awards.

      Turn on Sportcenter any night in the summer. In game rundowns, they show great defensive plays, but do they show the stolen bases? Nope, the viewers love the long ball. Is it right? No and it’s why I almost exclusively watch MLB Network instead. Ironclad guarantee, Miggy.

      BTW- I think Beltre should be highly considered, I don’t know how you drive in 100 runs batting behind Josh Hamilton with the year he had, but Beltre did it.

      • schmenkman

        September 30, 2012 at 3:23 pm

        Lefty, exactly right — Cabrera will win.

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