Phillies Nation

116 Responses to “Hamels Cruises To 10th Victory”

1. Tyler Says:
   August 18th, 2008 at 12:59 am

   Was that sign intended toward this site or just Phillies Nation in general?

2. NEPA Says:
   August 18th, 2008 at 1:02 am

   Even our wins feel like losses recently. I’m so pissed after every game anymore.

3. Ryan Says:
   August 18th, 2008 at 2:46 am

   not sure tyler..

4. Whisky Priest Says:
   August 18th, 2008 at 3:22 am

   Petco is the biggest collection of ineffectual fans that I’ve ever witnessed. Don’t get me wrong, they’re nice folk, but they couldn’t outcheer a St. Louis fan to save their kids’ lives. 2-1 is a bullshit score, and the Phils’ offense deserves a swift kick to their collective nuts.

5. Bear Mike Says:
   August 18th, 2008 at 7:16 am

   OK, because the Phillies are playing so poorly right now and are 2 games back behind the Mets, I reviewed our remaining schedule and estimated the result of the remainder of games (with rose-colored glasses?):

   VS. Games Wins

   Nats 9 7
   Dodgers 4 2 ?
   Mets 5 3 ?
   Cubs 4 2 ?
   Fish 6 4
   Braves 6 5
   Brewers 4 2 ?
   38 25

   I made alot of assumptions here. This big assumption here is that they split three 4 game series against the Dodgers, Cubs, & Brewers. Will really finish the last 38 games with 25 wins – 13 losses? This would mean we would finish the season 91W-71L. The way our team has been playing, that seems to be unrealistic. OK, how about 21W-17L in the remaining 38 games for a final record of of 87W-75L. Where would this leave us in the NL East? I still predict that the Phillies will win the division. In order to accomplish that, the Phillies have to get their offense firing on all cylinders. Any thoughts?

6. Bear Mike Says:
   August 18th, 2008 at 7:30 am

   I did the same thing for the Mets remaining schedule and estimated the results:

   VS – Games – Wins
   Pit 1 – 1
   Braves 9 – 6
   Astros 4 – 2
   Phills 5 – 2
   Fish 6 – 4
   Brewers 4 – 2
   Nats 6 – 5
   Cubs 4 – 2
   38 games: estimate 23 wins for a final record of 91W – 71L.
   I don’t know how realistic my estimates are, but it looks like it will be close down to the wire. Who knows in the end?????

7. Geoff Says:
   August 18th, 2008 at 9:08 am

   They have to do better than 9-7 against the nats. it needs to be more like 12-4.

   anyways, this offense sucks. cha seung baek is total garbage and they could barely muster 2 runs off of him. terrible. they cant even hit garbage pitching anymore! its gotten WORSE as the year progresses here.

8. Paul Says:
   August 18th, 2008 at 9:25 am

   Hopefully the Nats pitching is the tonic that the Phils hitting needs.

9. Josh Says:
   August 18th, 2008 at 9:28 am

   Uh, Geoff, you may want to read that again. He was guessing we’d go 7-2 against the Nats in 9 remaining games. Those estimates look a little high for the Phils to me, and a lot closer for the Mets, so that sucks. We’re only fighting the for division at this point, I don’t see us catching Milwaukee for the wildcard. Hopefully things turn around quickly, and the offense remembers how to hit in September magically.

10. Phil Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 9:29 am

    I just can’t see the Phillies winning this division. It has been a nice season. We got off to a great start…I don’t know what happened to this team, but they deserved to lose playing the way they are.

11. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 9:43 am

    The wild card will come from the central, no east team has a shot at it. The front office so inadequately handled the hittting situation that the only thing left to do is indeed “hope they somehow magically remember how to hit in september.”Unbelievable. just go and address the problem. If you dont have the prospects to get a casey blake type in here, then admit youre not good enough and go a little bit younger. the truth is, most GMs dont like to rebuild all the way anyway, but if they know theyre not good enough theyll sell off a player for some good prospects to help them get to the top next year. This years selloff candidate: Jimmy Rollins. See ya, jackass.

12. Brian Michael Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 9:56 am

    I don’t know where the sign on tv came from, but I sure like its style.

13. Gabriel Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 9:56 am

    deserve to lose? wow. we still have a pretty decent shot at the playoffs. look at the rockies of last year. if we could ride a wave like that (starting now) we could turn some heads. does anyone think any NL team has a shot at the angels anyways?

14. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:00 am

    Dude, what the rockies did doesnt really happen too often. Aside from the cardinals, how often does a bad team like that actuallly get on a roll to THAT extreme?

    theres a reason that rarely happens. you have to be GOOD ENOUGH to win. they just arent. if they cant hit cha seung baek then something magical needs to happen to save them. Because thats how bad it is. It used to be “cant hit good pitching,” then it was “they cant hit decent pitching,” well now its “they cant hit any pitching.”

15. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:01 am

    I can’t see the Muts winning 90 games this year.. they have a TERRIBLE bullpen

16. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:03 am

    and actually, if they do get into the playoffs next year will be worse because theyll all be filled up with false confidence again like they were this year. including the front office. they really dont deserve to be in the playoffs the way they have played up to this point. Who knows, it might actually be a good thing for them. Theyll realize that theyre a lot farther away than they and some of you think. You want to play with the big boys? well you gotta retool your whole organization so that its a precision machine that churns out quality players ready to contribute or valuable enough to be moved as assets. you think theyre ready for that? pffh

17. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:06 am

    all im saying is, if were now reduced to relying on some “magical run.” tahts embarrassing and pathetic. they had their magical run last year and it got them just as far as they deserved to go.

18. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:12 am

    What do you guys all think about the Marlins? Is it worth one World Series if you have to continually trade everyone off and save salary.. This fron FanNation Truth & Rumors:

    Unless Marlins owner Jeffrey Loria doubles the $22 million payroll (which nobody expects), several players likely will be dealt this winter for cheaper talent. ”Payroll will always match revenue,” team president David Samson stressed. One National League general manager said Florida’s predicament is tricky because ”it’s hard to find alternatives if you move some of their best arbitration-eligibles, like Dan Uggla. Mike Jacobs is probably the most expendable.”

19. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:22 am

    Theyre allowed to do that. Theyve won with it twice. When they think theyre ready again theyll boost the payroll to liek 40-something and win another world series. its better than the phillies approach because the phillies have yet to win anything with this approach.

20. That Guy Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:22 am

    The muts were able to benefit from a soft spot in the schedule. They have been able to sweep the shitboxes while we can only take 2 of 3. This is the difference in the standings.

21. Gabriel Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:25 am

    i don’t think a ‘magical run’ is necessary for us to make it into the playoffs. everyone knows our bats are fully capable of coming alive at any point. we are also a very streaky team. i guess i’m sayin that i dont wanna start thinkin about next year already when we are only 2 games out of first in the east… i know that we have been playin like six day old garbage recently but i dont want to give up hope yet

22. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:29 am

    but thats what were saying/ the “bats coming alive” thing is being overly reliant on something we havent seem for months. how about lets try scoring 3 runs per game. lets see them do that before we start “assuming the bats are going to come a live again.” i havent seen anything that leads me to believe this lineup is going to score 5 runs a game, on average, for the rest of the season. i just dont see it given their current pace.

23. TJ Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:30 am

    Hamels pitched well last night and didnt give up a home run again making it 3 consectuive starts. Hamels has allowed two or less runs in seven of his last nine starts and 10 of 14.

    The Phillies will make the playoffs but it wont come easy and we all know that. What we need to do is get J.A. Happ back in the rotation at the expense of Kendrick. It’s only a matter of time before we score more runs right, right? Lets hope so, because our pitching has been good enough to win us close games. Hamels isnt hurt which is a sigh of relief, what happened to all that speculation? Lidge, perfect still. Knock on wood. I’m still optimistic that the Mets will falter, but they are extremely hot right now. . . . against pretty bad teams so we can do nothing but wait and see. Go Phils.

    Some foot notes from ESPN..
    “The Phillies are 55-0 when leading after the eighth inning. Philadelphia is one of five big league teams who are undefeated with a lead heading into the ninth inning. … Padres’ first-round draft pick Allan Dykstra took batting practice. Dykstra, who signed his contract on Friday, was a freshman when Hamels was a senior at the same San Diego area high school, although they were not teammates on the varsity team.”

24. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:31 am

    or how about we keep it really simple? win baseball games.

25. Todd Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:32 am

    cha seung baek isn’t as bad as you think actually… he’s faced the mets twice and shut them down twice.

26. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:35 am

    (outside of the Marlins’ approach, since no other team can copy that for some reason..) Would you take one World Series if it meant the team would suck for the next 5-10 years?

27. bobby Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:37 am

    The lack of offense has become more than just a concern. It’s downright shocking. The only positive spin I can think of is that they can’t possibly be this bad, right? So assuming they break out offensively, they suddenly become a strong team, with the pitching they’ve been getting. (Hey, I’m reaching at straws, I know.)

    Off Topic: I have 2 tickets (Sec. 136) for the Phillies/Mets on Weds, August 27th, 7:05pm. Unfortunately, I have a conflict that night and would love to swap with someone for the night before, Tues, 8/26. Anyone interested e-mail me at robert_tee@yahoo.com. Thx.

28. Rob Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:40 am

    Well considering we’ve taken one world series for a team that has sucked for approximately 100 years… I’d say yes.

29. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:42 am

    But in 15 years the marlins have one twice. the phililes havent won a world series with this “just good enough to sell tickets” approach. the approach of pretenders. so what is there to reassure me that this way of doing things is going to win a championship? theyve been like this for YEARS. always a lot of 30-somethings on the team. hardly ever rebuilding or even “going younger.” always wasting money on veterans, going back to the mid-80s, instead of building around a young core. do they have one now? yeah sorta, the problem is that their young core is pushing 30 and half the rest of the spots are filled by 30 somethings.

    so theres never a trend or a theme here other than having an improperly constructed team. they had their magical run and it FAILED in 1993, they had it again last year and it FAILED. and tahts all youre going to get unless the approach changes here.

    what the hell have the phillies done thats so great? theyre the worst franchise in baseball. they always have been and they still are. yet we still support it, which makes rollins comments all the more disgraceful.

30. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:46 am

    I just mean, as a Phillies fan…. forget about their past… Would you take a Phillies World Series championship this year if it meant that they would be a sub .500 team for the next 10 years?

    Im a fan of watching them and cheering for them to win and holding out that hope that one day they’ll win it and it will be the sweetest thing ever..

    Maybe thats why im not so bitter that they’re 2 games behind the Muts right now

31. TJ Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:48 am

    Geoff I dont know what to tell you but to pick a different team to follow, you obviously not satisfied with the current state of the franchise nor with its past. What do you like about this team? I dont get why you post on here to point out negatives. Are you trying to pry fans away from the Phillies? What are you trying to do? I think we’ve all come to accept that this team is hurting.

32. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 10:58 am

    id take one championship in 10 years yes.

    especially considering theyve had one championship in 100 years. and whoever engineered that title would be good enough to repeat it before another 100 years passed, youd think.

33. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:03 am

    i grew up rooting for this team, going to the games, when they were HORRIBLE. 1993 was a faint memory even though i was at some of the playoff games.

    thats what being a fan is. you root for the team and support them even if they are the worst franchise in baseball over time. its also why its so frustrating because the ownership/management is so duplicitious and/or incompetent that you actually can legitimately wonder whether or not theyre not failing on purpose to keep people coming enough to milk us out of our money.

34. Phil Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:05 am

    The Cubs are a pretty bad franchise too, which is odd because they’re a big market club.

35. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:07 am

    See, I think being a fan is trying to point out the positives.. and continually giving yourself reason to hope.. look at the RedSox (before ‘04) and the Cubs haven’t won in 100 years..

    I brought up the 10-years scenario, cause I’d rather see my team continually play good baseball instead of just be the Champion and then nothing… I enjoy watching the Phillies play, yes its frustrating when they go 2-5 on road trips and stuff… but really, they are getting better, and maybe they won’t win with this current group, but they sure have been exciting the past few seasons, and in my mind they’ll only get better over the next few

36. Rob Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:07 am

    I’m a much younger Phillies fan, but I’m old enough to realize why my dad, who has been a conscious fan for more than 40 years, says “They’re gonna lose” every time the 7th inning stench rolls around.

    I like rooting for them, they’re by far my favorite team of any sport, so I’d definitely choose 1 championship for 10 years of sub .500. Imagine what that world series would feel like! Seriously!

37. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:08 am

    ” brought up the 10-years scenario, cause I’d rather see my team continually play good baseball instead of just be the Champion and then nothing”

    thats the eagles-phillies media spin that youve bought into. thats an absurd statement. what fan doesnt want to see their team win a championship? youre nuts.

38. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:11 am

    also, with a big market team like the phillies, a championship would actually breed more success because the revenue would increase enough that even those crooks would put it back into the team because they wouldnt know what to do with a good chunk of it.

39. Rob Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:12 am

    Ya, what your basically saying is you’d rather take 10 years with no championship than 10 years with one championship. Whats the difference between the other 9? Meaningless in my point of view. 2001-2006 has just faded into a blur for me anyway. 86-76. I couldn’t tell you the difference between any of the seasons. They aren’t memorable. A championship is memorable.

40. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:15 am

    I’m nuts… you’re completely normal…

    Read the rest of what I said…. you keep coming up with these do-or-die comments and stuff… meanwhile, they have the best group of talent they’ve had since 1980.. and they have lots of those players locked up for a few years, meaning that they should be able to contend for the next 3 years or so… maybe more if they sign some players… and maybe less if they trade their starters like you want them to.

    I’d like to be able to keep going to the ballpark and seeing teams play the game on the field instead of on paper… you just never know what is going to happen, and that unknown is what makes sports so great… the optimism that every fan has going into every season… it would be GREAT to win a championship, but it would suck to watch a team win one and then not be competitive..

    I know its an off-topic, unrealistic conversation… but once in a while you should take a deep breath and realize they have a pretty good team.. and the Cubs, Brewers, Cards, Mets, etc aren’t any more of a sure thing to win a World Series this year than we are…

41. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:18 am

    Maybe they won’t go down in the record books as the greatest teams or seasons in history… but the past few years watching Phillies baseball has been AWESOME..

    even the last year at the VET… Thome carrying them and smacking home runs… the late season runs in each of the last 3 years…. its been pretty damn good being a Phillies fan lately (unless you only measure things by the number of Championships)

42. Rob Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:21 am

    Your question was 1 WS, and 9 years sub .500 vs. 10 years of “competitive” baseball. Not 7 years of competitive baseball with hope for the next 3. What if the NL east turns into the NL West and Competitive is 5 games under .500? If you’d rather trade a championship and 9 meaningless seasons for 10 meaningless seasons, I’d like to know what type of antidepressants you are on because I’d love to be that positive about 10,000 losses.

43. Richie Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:22 am

    The one thing I really want them to do is have management before the year say we are “going for it” this year. Whatever it takes, like the cubs have done recently, the yankees and sox do every year. Go an extra 10 million on top of the cap and bring in a stud rental for a year and go for it. Instead of (jenkins, taguchi) signings that simply keep the fan base at bay.

44. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:22 am

    I didn’t do a good job of explaining that.. but if it meant the Phillies would be “unwatchable” for the next 10 years if gauranteed a Championship this year.. would you take it? …why? just to say that you were the Champ?

    Or would you rather take your chances over the next 10 years, not having anything for certain, but going with the flow and enjoying the excitement and the disappointment?

    I’d rather go with the later, because although it would be great to win a World Series… its even better to just enjoy the fact that the Phillies have a good, young team that wins a good amount of games every year.. and maybe some time soon has a chance to steal a World Series from the AL

45. NJ Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:23 am

    This team hasn’t commited to a time-frame for being a legitmate contendor, they’ve half heartedly made a window through 2011 but not with any authority.

    Those teams are better this year because they have a direction and that’s what makes them desperate, their hungry to win and the Phils aren’t

46. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:25 am

    but it would be nice to have something to show for all that. it was enjoyable, yes, but it all ended with nothing to show for it. you need to win ultimately because as you saw with the 1993 team. after they failed to win the next year the ballpark was barren for almost a decade because the organization was horrible. now with a money-maker ballpark thye have a chance to invest in a deep, well-scouted, well-thought out farm system that will continually produce. they havent poured NEARLY enough money into that. then you need to keep fans coming back by signing a few players with big names and big media attention until your all new farm system is reayd to produce prospects for you.

    you start by drafting college players who will be reayd soon and then you go for reaches later on in the draft with big upside. eventually it will all cycle around and within a few years youll be reayd to take a run at the world series. if you can keep that group together for a few years then you take take two or three runs at it until you have to rebuild and cycle around again.

    its really not that complex, but the phillies arent trying to win with that proven method. theyre either not trying to win at all or theyre retards.

47. NJ Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:26 am

    Forget the stud rental the Phils need to get active in international recruitment and the draft. Our needs need to be addressed internally with prospects capable of making the major leagues, hit or miss is not how you draft in the high rounds.

48. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:29 am

    agreed. in the high rounds, college players are the safest bet. college pitching has developed past the phase where they have arm trouble, usually, and you can rely on them to be up in 2 years tops.

49. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:30 am

    I was born in 1983.. so the fact that they have 10,000 losses doesn’t bother me that much because I didn’t see 90% of them..

    in 2006.. the Chicago Cubs has the 7th highest payroll in baseball.. they finished 6th in the NL CENTRAL with a 66-96 record… so there are always exceptions to the rule… and the Yankees have been 1st or 2nd in payroll in each of the last 7 season or so since they last won a World Series..

50. Rob Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:30 am

    I mean but still, Don, those seasons were exciting but they didn’t even make the playoffs. I would say if competitive means playoff team for a bunch of those years vs. unwatchable + 1 WS, I might take the competitive scenario… but again, we’ve all watched the Phils when they’ve been unwatchable… I know what that’s like and i lived to tell about it.

51. Mike Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:31 am

    Atleast Football is starting soon! BTW..anyone catch the E.A.G.L..E..S. Eagles Chant last night during the phillies game?

    A group of philly fans got picked up on the audio!..

52. NJ Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:32 am

    Let’s be real the front office is wining it with an outdated model, the league has really changed in the last three years or so and the Phils need to catch up. The off-seaon JD Drew/Rowand type deals are not how you win and teams are handcuffing themselves with medicore FA pitcing like Eaton/Marquis and yes Kyle Lohse who will be well advised to re-sign with the Cards. The Sox are realising this with Lugo who’s being shopped yet we haven’t even shown signs the FA is willing to find a more efective way of getting impact players onto the roster.

53. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:33 am

    if youre concerned about free agency, then you go ahead and invest LOTS of money into revamping your farm system. for about 20mm payroll you can gut it and revamp it to where it produces you quality players. 10mm in to the draft, 10mm into foreign players. another 10mm into scouting and development. ithats actually smarter than a 20mm free agent pitcher with arm troubles. its a good long-term investment, but they wont even do that.

54. NJ Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:35 am

    You can’t play the all in now game it doesn’t work, you have to impliment a scalable model for being competitive enough to win like the Angels have, granted they have a bigger payroll but they have a model.

    The Phils are failing to control the payroll and are very poor in the FA market because they won’t shop above market value and are trying to find great players in the good section which is just wishful thinking.

55. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:41 am

    see.. but they look at Hamels, Blanton, Myers, Moyer in their last few starts and they KNOW that they have pitching that can contend… if Carrasco is a stud its even better… if Savery or Drabek or Bastardo are good pitchers, then we’ve got good young arms in waiting..

    the problem is that all the fans want everything RIGHT NOW… if you trade for that pitcher that might help, or you spend huge on that one Free Agent.. you might not be able to have all those little pieces that help complete the puzzle

    ..think Dave Roberts of the RedSox.. they don’t win without him stealing bags and getting himself into scoring position… so they didn’t win it BECAUSE OF HIM.. but they couldn’t have won it without him..

56. Rob Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:44 am

    Rollins for Dave Roberts… straight up.

57. Michael Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:47 am

    Reading back over NJ’s comments, I believe that he has nailed the problem. They draft and sign the same kind of player. The long ball looks great on highlight films and Baseball tonight, but if you watch a team for an entire season you can see the missed opportunites to win games is not the inablility to hit homers but the number of times the Phils fail to put the ball in play. In addition to the strikeouts, their lack of bat control to advance runners or to score men from third with less than two outs.
    We are witnessing the consequences of a personel policy that tried to match the player to the ball park. (Notice that the Phillies offensive numbers are better away from Citizens. Could it be that everyone is trying to hit it out?) As a result, we have clones of the same type of player. Howard, Burrell, Jenkins, Feliz, Werth, Ruiz? and Rollins when he is bad (and he is really bad this year). Look at the Angels for a model of how a team with a mixed offense and good pitching can thrive. We have the good pitching but unfortunately our mix is very, very bad.

58. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:52 am

    the angels have people that continually are ready to come up. oh, lets get rid of casey kotchman for texiera because we can absorb the loss even if we dont resign him.

    you have to have a deep enough farm system where you afford to do that to get you over the hump. the angels alreayd won their division and they still went out and made a move to get over the hump in the playoffs. the phillies dont even have the farm system to achieve that, let alone absorb it. theyre not good enough as it is to win anything tangible, so why keep prolonging and prolonging it? add some depth to your roster by moving one of your valuable pieces. thats how you KNOW the phillies are lying when they talk about not being able to afford pitching and so forth. they talk liek that, and then go wate 5-7mm on a bad contract for jenkins and waste 24mm on eatons contract. YOU. CANT. DO. THAT! tahts retarded. now in order to ACTUALLY rebuild and reset your payroll you HAVE to sell in the offseason if they fail to make the playoffs. go young, rebuild your team and your farm system and then take another run at it.

    id be willing to watch them suck for a few years if it meant reorienting the focus and doign the right things and get in the right mindset here. because i KNOW that the internal development approach is what wins championships. trading is a short-term solution with the scope of 2-3 years TOPS, it plugs gaps to get you over the hump. free agency can cripple your payroll for years if you screw it up. you dont use those things to BUILD. you build from within.

    if theyre not prepared to do taht, to DEVELOP players liek carrasco and happ and others, then take youre core and move it for young talent and start over.

    with this management, who knows what theyre going to do. they could unload the farm in the offseason fro some trash pitching thats already done and ruins out team even more.

59. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 11:53 am

    yeah their whole lineup has become the same type of hitter, you have to either fix it or move them all out and start over.

60. NJ Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 12:10 pm

    Thanks Michael… Have to say though it’s hard to include Werth on that list as he’s a patient hitter who’s come through other teams systems but he’s a stop-gap with upside and he looks as if he’ll be more effective with more relief.

    Is it any surpise though we have the same kind of prospects the Rays are routing out of their system when we have their old head scout… Cantu/Baldelli/Gomes/Gathright seem an aweful lot like guys like Costanzo/Bourn/Robertson/Sandoval and now guys like Golson and Donald. I’m not saying these guys won’t be major league contributors but you have to look at the track record.

    Doesn’t matter the amounts your spending on payroll and development. What you have to do is look at that money, look at the rest of the field, the production were having and then answer the question of how well is this going. That’s the real reason the Phils system doesn’t get much respect, prospects values drop because we have no plan for where they fit in on the 25 man roster and we handcuf ourselves to mediocre acqusitions expecting them to take the next step when their best is behind them whilst preeching getting young guys in the mix.

61. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 12:22 pm

    yeah they dont really draft with an eye towards PROJECTED major league needs. thye just draft to draft.

62. NJ Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 12:43 pm

    they draft to stockpile with plays with impact potential but they aren’t positioning themselves to land impact player and there’s a massive difference, you can’t fill the farm with solid middle of the rotation pitchers if you’ve filled the rotation with those guys already, Happ doesn’t fit in because his minor league pedigree doesn’t translate into anything more than a back-end role and we’re stocked there.

    We have to draft and develop with more purpose because we have incredible talent in the system with no idea how to utilise them so we’re left with very little frontline pitching talent, virtually nothing in the middle infield or corner outfield spots and nothing that translates into major league pedigree relief pitching (which is the greatest need). So we’re stocked with servicable starters and 20/20 potential outfielders but without the pedigree of guys who’ll fill projected needs. It’s not like the Yanks where prospects are under-performing but could fill the projected role, we’re reaching with guys we hope can fill a role and have missed.

    Gillick pulled off a heist with the Lidge deal, OK his value was down but we traded a below average bat with speed in Bourn, a middle reliever with average stuff and a prospect who likely won’t see the majors with success. When you look at a distance a lot of prospects in the system really do resemble those guys in a lot of ways.

63. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:01 pm

    yeah i like happ but hes been lost in the mix, maybe they could move him fora young outfielder similar to a lesser degree of a hamelton-volquez deal.

64. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:05 pm

    and the phillies have WAY too many guys who are undeveloped in their system. too many raw players. why draft anthony hewitt at all? you alreayd have liek 10 guys just liek him. is he an infielder or an outfielder? thats ok to do in like the 20th round. but in the first round? why not just draft a college reliever who can fill a role in your bullpen in 2 years or a collge 3b who can be reayd in less than 2 years

65. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:16 pm

    Because if you “just draft a college reliever who can fill a role in your bullpen in years” you might miss out on that next SuperStar… thats all the baseball draft is in the 1st round.. you look at who has the most upside, and then you take him..

    They had Costanzo but had to give up Lidge to get him.. when they drafted Costanzo they took him out of Coastal Carolina University, where he was a All-Conference and stuff.. and STILL was way more than 2 years away from ready in the big leagues…

    Geoff, everything you’re saying, is SO MUCH EASIER SAID THAN DONE..

66. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:18 pm

    really? why should i listen to someone who would rather see them be good for 10 yeras than win a championship?

67. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:19 pm

    really? then you wouldve passed on ryan braun then? he was a college player.

68. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:20 pm

    you might want to look for the “next” superstar buried in the rough when elite hitters and top notch mlb-reayd pitching is STARING YOU RIGHT IN TEH FACE.

69. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:25 pm

    really? really?? real….. if Ryan Braun was the player with “the most upside” then thats who you take.. Early in the draft, they look for THE NEXT SUPERSTAR.. sometimes you guess right.. sometimes you don’t.

    And that’s every team not just the Phillies.. you don’t waste a #1 pick on a college reliever because its not a good risk-reward pick.

    Since when is a “college reliever who can fill a bullpen role”… a “top notch mlb ready pitcher”….. they are two different pitchers..

70. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:26 pm

    but thats the hwole point: the phillies have sucked at doing that.

71. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:29 pm

    And if you’d calm down for a second.. you could re-read this instead of trying to compare me to the Eagles ownership or whatever you said earlier..

    “I didn’t do a good job of explaining that.. but if it meant the Phillies would be “unwatchable” for the next 10 years if gauranteed a Championship this year.. would you take it? …why? just to say that you were the Champ?

    Or would you rather take your chances over the next 10 years, not having anything for certain, but going with the flow and enjoying the excitement and the disappointment?

    I’d rather go with the later, because although it would be great to win a World Series… its even better to just enjoy the fact that the Phillies have a good, young team that wins a good amount of games every year.. and maybe some time soon has a chance to steal a World Series from the AL”

    If either one was gauranteed.. obviously i’d take the Championship.. A World Series and then 10 bad years, beats no World Series but 10 good years… But since nothing is gauranteed, I’d rather see them stay on this path that has them improving steadily over the past few seasons

72. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:33 pm

    Burrell, Gavin Floyd, Utley, Hamels, Myers… all recent 1st round picks drafted because of their high upside.. all are very good MLB players.

73. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

    how many of those were college?

74. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

    and how many championships have those players helped win?

75. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:41 pm

    2 from College… Burrell and Utley??

    5 Championships.. where have you been…??

    Cause if the only reason that you cheer for the Phillies is to see them win a World Series.. then you are going to be a bitter person for most of your life. BUT.. hopefully, we aren’t like the Cubs or RedSox fans pre-2004 and we don’t have to wait the better part of 100 years to see our team bring a World Series home again..

    Whenever it happens.. 2009, 2019.. 2049.. Hopefully I’m there for the parade and it will be awesome. I obviously don’t cheer for the Phillies because they win the World Series.. I cheer for them to hopefully win the World Series.. but baseball is my favorite sport, and the Phillies are my hometown team… so for the rest of my life I will cheer for this team, maybe i’ll never see them win anything, but why be negative about life?? There are plenty things more important than baseball, and I HIGHLY suggest that you take a week off from the Phillies Geoff.. find out why you like this team instead of the raising your blood pressure everyday telling everyone why this team sucks so bad

76. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:43 pm

    im 99% sure the other 3 were taken right from High School….. Drabek was a high school kid.. but Savery was a college guy.

    It makes so much sense to draft the player with the highest upside instead of limiting yourself to only college players.. look who they would have missed out on

77. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:49 pm

    But the Cubs and Red Sox fans were worse than we are. the red sox created a whole elgion of fake fans that never have even been to boston based on the losing thing. and all of a sudden theyre all on board when they win. tehsame with teh cubs. all fake fans.

    i believe the point of rooting on a team is to see them win. if they arent winning, then you want them to do the things needed to win.

78. TJ Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:49 pm

    Geoff, get the MLB package and watch the Devil Rays if your so dismayed. They are the perfect organization for you.

79. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:51 pm

    They are winning… they just aren’t winning the “WORLD SERIES” like we all would like them to.

80. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:52 pm

    i dont even know why im wasting my time. youre a fake ass fan. youre a phony, bogus fan who doesnt want to see a championship every year and would rather see them be “competetive.” go root for the eagles with that piss poor attitude. around here, were looking for winning baseball.

81. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:53 pm

    thats what winning is! winning championships! any half-assed city of fans can go down to the ballpark and enjoy the weather, but the real fans want their team to win. go root for the cubs.

82. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:55 pm

    actually tj, im more of a fan than you or don are. you probably dont even go to the games, let alone watch them. if you did, and you arent retards, you would understand waht winning baseball is. the organizations to look at are the red sox and the angels. both teams have elite farm systems and plug gaps with trades and signings. they can afford to spend more but the principles are still the same.

83. TJ Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:56 pm

    ^ Jimmy Rollins?

84. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 1:56 pm

    baseball has changed over the past decade. you have to be able and willing to spend when you have to, but msot of this comes from within. thats how it works now

85. TJ Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 2:05 pm

    I’ve been to 26 games this year. Watched all I could. Therefore you’re wrong.

    I’m not disagreeing with the fact that you build from within these days. I’m just wondering why you like the Phillies in the first place if you have a problem with everything about the organization.

    I agree that we should value our system more but none of this is going to change with the owners now. THEY want to see competitive teams and bathe in the income. THEY want to field the team that will bring crowds to CBP. WE want, and the key word is want, to see a world series team. Like it or not we have improved the last couple of years and are a relatively good baseball team. If it was up to the fans all the time then we would sign every big name free agent that goes on the market, pull the trigger on any blockbuster that puts us over the top for that year. But its about the owners man and what we have are some greedy assholes in the front office and a history of poor signings so do you think our owners are gonna empty their pockets for more David Bells and Adam Eatons. Absolutely not. Wade has put this franchise where it is right now by bringing in terrible contracts and thus making the owners hesitant to dish out some more cash for free agents

86. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 2:05 pm

    Geoff, seriously.. you have problems.. all kidding aside you should look into getting help for Anger Management and Rage..

    I point out things like drafting a player with the most upside instead of a college reliever.. and how winning a championship isn’t the only thing in the world, and I still enjoy the Phillies eventhough they haven’t won in my lifetime… and I said that whenever they finally win one I’ll still be there cheering…

    and that makes me “a fake ass fan”…

    Keep DEMANDING all kinds of crazy shit like trading Rollins for prospects and see how fast that team has a shot at winning a world series.. you’re the best kind of fan, the guy who complains no matter which moves they do or don’t make.

87. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 2:10 pm

    Fans of every team in every sport are going to go see them in person more when that team is winning… Even when the Phillies were horrible, i’d still watch them all the time and hope that they’d win every game.. THAT is what being a fan is all about..

    I could get all worked up, bitch and moan about how bad the trainers and shit are too.. but that doesn’t make me a better fan..

88. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

    im glad i could bring it out of you TJ, sorry if i got you upset there…TJ i like the phillies despite all their problems because real fans want the best for their team and i beleive the team wold be best served by overhauling a lot of habits leftover from wade and a lot of gillick’s mistakes as well.

    don.. my anger is actuallly compeltely under control. this website is the perfect place to vent all baseball-related anger. also, don..real fans should demand things. thats the only way the owners will know that what theyre doing isnt enough. im still not convinced of don’s legitimacy here though.

89. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 2:16 pm

    “Fans of every team in every sport are going to go see them in person more when that team is winning… Even when the Phillies were horrible, i’d still watch them all the time and hope that they’d win every game.. THAT is what being a fan is all about.. ”

    right, thats my piont. thats what im talking about. thats what we all do.

90. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 2:18 pm

    Trust me.. the Phillies owners aren’t reading your rants here on PhilliesNation….

    Keep demanding though, so far its working…

    Because I’m one of the few optimistic people on here makes you think that I’m not a fan of the Phillies… and you’re saying that makes it sound like all fans should constantly complaing and DEMAND things.. (to nobody in particular) .. everything you say sounds like it comes directly from Angelo Cataldi and those clowns that complain all day on sports talk radio

91. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 2:20 pm

    Because I don’t DEMAND things everday, you think that my optimism about the Phillies makes you more of fan that I am…

    And I think that your constant complaining about the Phillies makes me a better fan than you..

92. Rally Monkey Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 2:22 pm

    Be an Angels fan then.

93. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 2:23 pm

    but i hate those clowns. they dont know what theyre actually complaining about. angelo cataldi is the second worst host in the city. i complain about things that actually make sense. including the trainers, and the guys that paint the baselines, etc.

    actually, the owners know what their doing isnt right, thats why montgomery goes on tv and will boldly and openly lie about what theyre going to do. sometimes theyll even just come out and say “no we have no interest in getting a starting pitcher.” they did that in the offseason. just came right out and said it.

    dude, i know they dont even know what this website is, thats not the point and its shame your missing it.

94. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 2:24 pm

    no, im not leaving, id rather see my team through to victory.

95. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 2:26 pm

    of course you would think that don..you said you dont want to see them win a championship. you just openly came out and said it. so, since theyre not winning a championship, yorue happy.

96. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 2:29 pm

    Last year, when they said they had no interest in getting a starting pitcher… nobody complained, because Livan Hernandez and Kyle Lohse were looking for $10 M per year for 4-5 years…

    That was smart by them and lots of other teams to openly say they aren’ interested because it brings the overall market values back down.. Hopefully the Carlos Silva’s and Gil Meche and Adam Eaton’s of the world won’t cost $8 -10 Million per year anymore… and teams openly saying they wont be paying that will help to get things back to normal.

97. Don M Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

    you’re worse than an 8 year old girl..

    you don’t read or remember anything anyone says, and then you try to tell people that they aren’t real fans and shit …

98. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 2:33 pm

    right, im ok with that. last year wasnt a good year for pitching in the offseason. we all know that

99. Geoff Says:
    August 18th, 2008 at 2:34 pm

    sure i do. you just are the single biggest dickhead on this website. you pick apart everything everyone says like youre a goddamned lawyer or some moral authority. and since you said you dont want the phillies to win a championship then its really not worth arguing with you.

100. Don M Says:
     August 18th, 2008 at 2:35 pm

     Instead of paying any attention to the part when I said how Im routing for them to win a championship but that I’ve been enjoying their recent success, and will continue to cheer for this team even if they don’t win a World Series..

     you try to be cool and recruit friends on here by saying I said I “don’t want to see them win a Championship”…

101. Geoff Says:
     August 18th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

     and no, im not going to let you get away with saying that.

102. Geoff Says:
     August 18th, 2008 at 2:37 pm

     im going to keep bringing it up every tim eyou get out of line, not as determined by me, but as determined by the rest of the people on here

103. Geoff Says:
     August 18th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

     you sound liek my aunt. except substitute the phillies with global warming.

104. Don M Says:
     August 18th, 2008 at 2:40 pm

     Really.. I don’t pick apart too much of what other people say.. except you since every other day, you find a new thing to complain about.. and since you go such crazy rants.. I try to provide other fans on here a sense that not everyone on this website hates everything about the team.

     Like I will keep saying.. this is a pretty good team, and they have young players who should keep getting better over the next few season.. I don’t think they are that far away from being serious World Series contenders.. but you do.. so Im sure we’ll keep arguing about this stuff…

     As long as you stop telling people on here that they aren’t actually fans and stuff there shouldn’t be any problems.

105. Eb Says:
     August 18th, 2008 at 2:42 pm

     Christ give Don and Geoff there own post to watch them hate each other.

106. Don M Says:
     August 18th, 2008 at 2:45 pm

     Amen

107. Geoff Says:
     August 18th, 2008 at 2:47 pm

     i just think they should still make the playoffs despire their inadequacies. if they dont, well im not going to go there now. but i think they have no chance at all of winning a world series.

108. Don M Says:
     August 18th, 2008 at 2:48 pm

     Just so everyone knows.. me and Geoff are Boyz (with a “z” so you know its legit)

109. Don M Says:
     August 18th, 2008 at 2:52 pm

     I don’t think they’re winning a World Series this year either.. and who knows who will win it next year.. thats what makes being a fan great, that every season you think you’re team made moves that might get your team to the playoffs finally..or the NLCS…. or the World Series..

     Im going to Chicago next Thursday, and im pissed that we’re playing so bad, and I really hope they don’t get embarassed by the Cubs out there.. BUT.. I don’t think they will because they’re a good team that has been underperforming for the past two months.. at any time they can get on a streak and win 8, or 9 of 10 games.. Im just hoping it happens soon..

110. TJ Says:
     August 18th, 2008 at 2:54 pm

     So……………..Go Phillies!

111. TJ Says:
     August 18th, 2008 at 3:00 pm

     You never know what you’re gonna get out of the Phillies on any given day. We’re grossly inconsistent, and I’m over the fact that we’re underachieving. We are nothing more than an ego led club at this point. Hopefully everyone rides their egos into the playoffs but right now I will bet they’re making excuses and pointing fingers everywhere but themselves.

112. Rob Says:
     August 18th, 2008 at 4:18 pm

     An ego led club with an ego led blog. Both of you guys are fucking girls.

113. Tyler Says:
     August 18th, 2008 at 4:26 pm

     Rob are you a Mets fan? We need more internet bad asses on our side.

114. OZ Says:
     August 18th, 2008 at 5:43 pm

     Don M.

     what color is the sky in your world? you’re excited watching this team? is Bill Giles your godfather? are you on NYCPimpDaddy’s payroll?

     say hi to Dutch Daulton for me.

115. Michael Says:
     August 18th, 2008 at 9:48 pm

     You guys are amazing. If you don’t follow your team with this kind of passion how can you be called a fan? Geoff its hard to disagree with your view of our farm system. They don’t seem to develop talent the way that other teams do (look at the old Montreal and the Marlins if you feel that its just a matter of money.) Since identifying young talent is such a crapshoot, you can’t blow the opportunity to get some of your good guesses better. I would love to see someone make it to the big club that can play the game of BASEBALL! You know, someone who knows how to work the pitcher rather than the other way around. Someone who hits the cutoff man and knows how to run the bases. We used to learn this in high school ball and American Legion ball. Now everyone wants to get on Baseball Tonight.
     Put me on the list of those that would like to get some real baseball studs for Howard, Rollins and Burrell. The Marlins have won 2 world series with that philosophy.

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