Phillies Nation

180 Responses to “Marlins Finally Beat Moyer, 8-2”

1. Geoff Says:
   August 6th, 2008 at 10:17 am

   Since I believe in hoarding pitching, I am TOTALLY for bringing back freddy garcia and seeing what he can do.

2. Paul Says:
   August 6th, 2008 at 10:20 am

   That was the worst loss they’ve suffered in a while.

   Nothing really went right for them. Especially the back of the bullpen… ouch!

3. Brian Says:
   August 6th, 2008 at 10:26 am

   what would you offer Garcia to come back?

4. Mike T. Says:
   August 6th, 2008 at 10:26 am

   $20 gift card at best buy

5. Geoff Says:
   August 6th, 2008 at 10:30 am

   minor league deal with incentives.

   if that doesnt get it done, you can maybe do a bit better.

6. Phil Says:
   August 6th, 2008 at 10:32 am

   Wasn’t it a no decision against Moyer? Moyer only gave up 2 runs and Victorino got them back.

7. Phil Says:
   August 6th, 2008 at 10:33 am

   Also, the Phillies did get some timely hits, but hte Marlins defense actually brought their gloves last night.

8. Brian Says:
   August 6th, 2008 at 10:41 am

   Not a bad idea, maybe league minimum he’s got to be better than Kris Benson is so far.

9. Tim Malcolm Says:
   August 6th, 2008 at 10:41 am

   Phil: Moyer gets the loss. They were down 4-0 when Vic hit the homer. Doesn’t matter that they got the two runs back – they never led or tied after he left.

10. Phil Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 10:42 am

    That sucks. I hate the way they work wins/losses.

11. Lewisauce Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 10:44 am

    Once again, the offense snoozes.

    Just read that Arizona inked Dan Haren to a contract extension ($45 mil) that locks him up through 2013. Did we even talk to Oakland in the off-season about this guy? Or were we too intent on Kris Benson? (Hate to bring up this water-under-the-bridge, ancient-history stuff, but a lack of testicles when it comes to acquiring top pitching has always been the biggest failure of this front office, and after a pathetic loss, I feel like piling it on. Who’s with me?)

12. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 10:47 am

    Mike.. I think WaWa has $5 gift cards…

13. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 10:50 am

    The Phillies didn’t hit for Moyer… and he got himself out of a lot of the trouble that he got himself into. BUT… because he allowed all those baserunners, he threw so many pitches, and wasn’t able to stay in the game… Gotta praise him when he does well, and give him the blame when he pitches like he did last night. Granted that 2 runs over 5 innings isn’t bad, but when you need to come out early.. that is nobody’s fault but his.

    How many people on here right now can play better defense than Ryan Howard? I’m guessing at least 15 of us

14. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 10:51 am

    I dont recall them even inquiring on dan haren. oakland wouldve asked for twice what we gave them for blanton, but it would have been worth it. outman, cardenas, golson, victorino or carrasco. something like that probably. id probably have done it too, im a huge dan haren supporter, i think wed rule the national league with a hamels haren combo. shane.

    you notice arizona pulled their extension offer with brandon webb?

    im pretty sure the phillies were hell bent on getting kris benson in the fold after they lost out on kyle lohse

15. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 10:53 am

    I can play better defense, Im not 6-4 but I can dive and stuff.

    moyer pitched ok, but he wasted too many pitches to get a QS. i think we needed another inning out of him

16. Eb Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 10:56 am

    Did you see the Haul that Oakland got for HAren, I think it was 5 or six players. No way our crap ownership would do that. I am a big fan of Haren also. They now have Webb and Haren signed for the next 3 years, that is an excellent 1 2 punch.

17. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 10:57 am

    Yeah they knew they had no chance to get him.

18. Mike T. Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 10:58 am

    it’s all howard’s fault. what a bum. completely halted that ralley. how can you not know a low and outside slider is coming? seriously. terrible terrible terrible. couldn’t even draw a walk.

19. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:00 am

    even wheeler was saying, OK, theyre going to throw a low and outside slider to him right here, can he stay off it?

20. Eb Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:00 am

    Anyone here go to phuturephillies.com, they do a top 30 prospects list and if you look at the numbers for our young players (under 20) and recent draft picks. They are all adjusting well to the transition from High School/College to their respective leagues.

    I know these guys are awhile away from being even near the show but hey still it is some good progress in developing a farm system.

21. Mike T. Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:01 am

    make an adjustment (something that appears so hard for him to do) and get a bat on the ball, fight it off. or, take the pitch. you know it’s coming.

22. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:04 am

    I think, in all honesty, that the lower tiers of the farm system have improved, but they havent built up their top two levels yet. they have some good double-a prospects, but the reading phillies as a team still suck i think.

    thats where they need to spend the money, at AA and AAA and its killing them right now. Im ok with the A and below guys, and thats a good start, but so what? what good is it if they get promoted and get lost in AA and AAA for years without improving? i think thats their problem, other teams know it, and thats why we didnt get dan haren.

23. Mike T. Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:04 am

    our front offices, from phila to clearwater, SUCK. get cashman in here. get me fire/hire some people. i think that’s a good move.

24. Mike T. Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:04 am

    our front offices, from phila to clearwater, SUCK. get cashman in here. let him fire/hire some people. i think that’s a good move.

25. Mike T. Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:05 am

    sorry, double post

26. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:05 am

    i think steve susdorf, from fresno st, will be up soon. hell go to AA next year and be up the year after. the sandwich pick, collier, will be longer probably. but youre supposed to use sandwich picks on college players who will go right to AA and be up in 2 years.

27. Phil Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:05 am

    Webb/Haren is the best 1-2 punch in baseball.

28. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:08 am

    compared to amaro, id be all for cashman. i think hes gotten stale in NY

29. Mike T. Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:09 am

    well, you better get used to the 1-2 punch of Blanton/Kendrick, because that’s what it is after moyer retires in the off season, hamels needs tj, myers gets dealt and happ mentally implodes because of games like last night.

    BLANTON/KENDRICK, 1-2 shove

30. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:10 am

    but, the real development DOES take place in AA and below. and thats lacking. anybody can have good single A teams, but the players sitll dont go anywhere frmo there.

31. Phil Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:16 am

    Geoff, watch out saying that AA>AAA because I got jumped all over for that.

32. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:17 am

    oh yeah thats right. if the guy just looked at the AAA rosters hed understand. instead, he looked at a snapshot of top 10s.

33. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:17 am

    As I posted on the previous page…

    This entire organization sucks… I want to know who the F is responsible for putting together a bunch of winning seasons in a row!!! And then I say fire those people immediately, because the don’t know what they are doing !!!

34. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:19 am

    im going to just go ahead and ignore that ridiculous statement.

35. Mike T. Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:21 am

    don, come on man – we all know that getting swept in the nlds during your first playoff appearance since 1993

36. Mike T. Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:21 am

    …SUCKS

37. Phil Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:21 am

    Don M you’re wrong. Stop talking shit on the Phillies ownership. They’re the best in baseball.

38. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:25 am

    No, they’re terrible.. they have no good players at all.. the only reason they are in first place, and the only reason that they they ever win is because of one thing.. LUCK

    The Mets choke, and we snuck in… we’re in first place because Ed Wade drafted guys like Utley, Burrell, Hamels, Rollins, Howard…. Mike Arbuckle, he wasn’t the one in charge of making those decisions at all… Im going to jump off a bridge if they lose another game.

    Brian Cashman is a horrible GM.. they have far and away the higest payroll in any sport, ever… and they don’t win dick.

39. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:26 am

    again, since 1981 (when this group took over from the carpenter family): championships – ZERO, WS appearances – 1. they have utterly and completely failed in a huge media market. they need to be bought out, either by middleton (who cares about winning more than the rest of them) or by a snider-croce-middleton led ownership group that comes in and takes over and changes the culture.

40. Mike T. Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:26 am

    last night was pretty cool in one way though. we got to see the best batting gloves in baseball (so taguchi) and the best glove in baseball (hanley ramirez) on the same field. that was exciting. and then howard struck out.

41. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:28 am

    actually, you seem to have forgotten something about brian cashman: under his watch, starting in 1998, the yankees have won 3 world championships and 5 american league pennants.

    so the phrase, not winning dick, is completely outrageous.

42. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:29 am

    see, instead of going by what they tell you, go by what they actually do. its easier that way. thats the same way politicians ought to be judged as well. but its not how most people judge them.

43. Mike T. Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:30 am

    plus, the yankees are in the AL east. having to compete with the 2nd biggest market, boston. so i mean come on. you gotta first make it out of that division, and then beat teams like red sox and angels to get anywhere. really, i think cashman has done plenty.

44. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:32 am

    cashman would know what to do with a 100mm payroll, even if its actually 90mm because they keep lying and sayinf that its more.

45. Phil Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:32 am

    No way dudes. Cashman is the worst GM ever. Pat Gillick is the best! Don M knows what he’s talking about when it comes to the Phillies FO.

46. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:32 am

    You’re right Mike.. getting swept in the first round SUCKS, BLOWS, etc… BUT the fact that they had to play a team that was hotter than anyone in baseball history… winners of like 21 of 22 down the stretch.. that ain’t our fault.

    They also swept the Diamondback… so they played one of the hottest teams EVER… and lost.. not the end of the world

47. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:34 am

    and the rockies shouldnt have even made th eplayoffs. because they lost to the padres, except there is not instant replay so they made the wrong call. because, you know, matt holliday never touched home before he was tagged out.

48. red Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:40 am

    Don’t give up on Happ so fast. He must be fairly metally tough to deal with how his situation has beeen handled all year. Chalk last night up to only ptching 2-1/3 innings (41 pitches) in the past two weeks. I wish they would give Hamels, Moyer and Kendrick a start off to rest their arms for the year end push and give Happ some innings

49. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:41 am

    They won it in 1996, 1998, 1999 and 2000…. 8 years, and BILLIONS of dollars later.. what do they have besides a bunch of overpaid has-beens.. You guys would bitch and complain about whoever the GM was so it really doesn’t matter who’s in charge.

    I agree 100% that this ownership group SUCKS.. and THEY have the ability to increase payroll, and decide that they would rather make profits instead of win championships.. BUT to steadily blame the GM and the scouts and the hot dog vendors and whoever else isn’t accurate…

    If Ed Wade was the wrost GM ever (probably was).. and Gillick is horrible (his track record proves otherwise).. then who the hell is responsible for this Phillies team? Mike Arbuckle has been in charge of the farm and the draft picks for quite some time.. has done a good job with them, and Gillick has filled in some pieces around those guys for the past two years, and he’s done a great job with his limited payroll… you guys all see it a different way, and go nuts whenever they lose a game..

50. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:44 am

    I think there needs to be a resurgance of the 6-man rotation. i feel that would really protect your staff if you could get them to go along with it. youd have to spend more on pitching in general, but if you restructred your bullpen to carry a few more guys that have excellent stamina you can do it. there are simply too many serious injuries happening now and i think that can be stopped with a 6-man rotation.

51. Mike T. Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:44 am

    i’m going nuts because we’re going to get swept this series. no chance the phils even win one game. look at the pitching match-ups. anibal sanchez, a nasty hard throwing righty, and then volstad, another hard tosser against hamels, who’s hurt. done. say goodbye to the lead.

52. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:45 am

    Matt Holliday was DEAD OUT at home plate.. But you can’t tell me that the Rockies weren’t playing unbelievable baseball at the end of last season and into the playoffs… THEY SWEPT THE NLDS, and the NLCS… thats pretty hard to do.

    I understand people being mad that we lost, and we didn’t win a championship and stuff… But you can’t win a World Series in August…or July…or June… and at some point you guys need to decide who is responsible for this team, love em or hate em…

    If its Gillick, fine… If it was Wade and Arbucke, fine…. But they are playing winning baseball over the past few seasons, and you’re all complaining about it..

53. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:46 am

    glad you agree aboput the ownership group. i understand what youre saying about gillick, and taht hes being restrained greatly, but the marlins have won with nothing. maybe theyre some exception, i dont know, id have to look at the past 20 years’ worth of champions.

54. Phil Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:46 am

    Yeah, Arbuckle is the man. He drafted some toolsy outfielder 3 spots ahead of Roy Halladay. What a great scout…

55. Pete Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:52 am

    Can somebody explain why in the hell Walrond was left in the game to pitch to a RH batter after walking 2 guys to load the bases? Durbin hadn’t pitched in two days. Madson was warmed up at the time. Just a ridiculously terrible move by Charlie. Absolutely no reason to leave a guy just called up from AAA in the game in that spot. Phils were only down 2-0…if Walrond doesn’t give up that hit, Vic’s “homer” ties the game and it’s a totally different story down the stretch.

    Inexcusably bad managing there. And yes, I’m aware the pitcher’s spot was due up 2nd in the bottom of the inning. Still no excuse to let the last guy on your pitching roster stay on the mound in the first game of the biggest series the Phils have played so far this year. Put Madson in to pitch to the RH batter and get Durbin and Romero warm for the 8th inning.

56. red Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:53 am

    I like the 6 man rotation idea especially when you have 6 starters out of your 12 pitchers

57. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 11:57 am

    The Marlins are, for whatever reason, insanely good at judging young talent… You just give them credit..not bash every other team in baseball for not being as good at it..

    Phil, is that the new thing called Sarcasm…

58. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

    theyve got tons of guys on there, young guys, taht other teams threw away as scrap. jorge cantu was unwanted, hes a good example of that.

59. Phil Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:02 pm

    Dan Uggla…he was a rule 5 draft pick.

60. Harry Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:08 pm

    The Phillies need to hire a GM who uses sabermetrics to evaluate players, like the A’s and Red Sox. It amazes me how people don’t like using numbers to evalaute players after the success of the A’s and Red Sox.

61. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:11 pm

    I think Albert Pujols was something like a 15th round draft pick..

    Rollins was a 2nd round pick in 1996, Ryan Howard was a 5th round pick in 2001 ( I think they both won MVPs?) 2001 was also the same year they got Gavin Floyd who looks pretty damn good now)

    Point is.. hard to judge talent… In my opionion they’ve done a damn good job of it overall in the past decade or so if you’re talking about Arbuckle.. and since the GM is mostly in charge of the major league club, Wade sucks cause he never found the pieces to go with his good player, and Gillick has done a nice job in that area since he’s been here

62. Harry Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:11 pm

    “Can somebody explain why in the hell Walrond was left in the game to pitch to a RH batter after walking 2 guys to load the bases?”

    No one one, because it’s unexplainable. Manual really hurt us in this game. So let me get this straight Charlie, you let Walrond face a rightie and after he gives up a hit and THEN put in Madson?

63. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:11 pm

    particularly the red sox. i know, right? statistics represent what the player does on the field, yknow, like how good they are in reality. there are intangibles, yes, and thats why you send scouts to watch people to put the final stamp of approval. and these poeple, phillies included, a lot of them just ignore that!??

    they go by “stuff” and “feel” and all that. les walrond has great stuff, btu he couldnt hit the great wall of china last night.

    brett myers has some of the best stuff in the national league, but he couldnt get anybody out all year until recently.

64. Harry Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:14 pm

    “Gillick has done a nice job in that area since he’s been here.”

    Yeah Don, Freddy Garcia, Adam Eaton, Rod Barajas, Wes Helms, Pedro Feliz, Geoff Jenkins, So Tagchi. Gillick has really added the parts.

    Still waiting for you to reply to my other post…

65. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:15 pm

    The RedSox also use a sky-high payroll to obtain players they want… other teams are limited in that area.. Really, the Marlins are the best example of scouting, drafting, and obtaining top young talent… Like the A’s do, they also need to trade away those players because they can’t afford $15- $20 million per year players..

    I understand people being pissed off when they lose.. but its the constant bickering and blasting Gillick, and calling for MVPs to get traded for prospects and stuff that gets me fired up and pissed off on here… no team is ever going to win 162 games… so we need to start being a little more calm when they lose, cause its going to happen a few more times between now and the end of the season

66. Harry Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:16 pm

    Look at the Red Sox record since hiring Bill James, the “father of sabermetrics.” Two world series speak for itself. The Phillies still employ these old school scouts who value hustle more than pure numbers, which is pretty funny.

    I’m not saying these intangibles do not carry any value, but to think they carry any significant weight is laughable.

67. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:16 pm

    kendrick, on the other hand, has no stuff, but his record and stats are fairly good since coming up…

    that moneyball stuff is all centered around stitistics and performance, and getting good monetary VALUE for the statistics the players produce, particularly those statistical measures that you value in your own organization. they dont go by the market price for people, they play cycles and once players lose the value (make too much money and become FA’s), they move them the year before and get prospects.

    the red sox spend a lot of money and get the big names when they want them. but look at all the home grown talent theyve got in there.

68. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:17 pm

    id rather have a player that produces in real games AND hustles, which these stats-driven GM’s do, instead of some guy that “looks good out there”.

69. Harry Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:19 pm

    “The RedSox also use a sky-high payroll to obtain players they want… other teams are limited in that area..”

    The Red Sox compete in one of the toughest divisions in baseball and still are one of the best teams in the league each year. Also, another team in their division called the Yankees out-spend them every year and it doesn’t seen to hurt their success. And why the hell does everyone think the Phillies don’t spend money? They are five or six in the league in payroll.

    All I said was Gillick is a bad GM. What has he added to this team over the past two years other then bad free agent signings? Don’t let his past reputation cover up his poor performance with the Phillies.

70. bski Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:19 pm

    Harry, how much more successful have the A’s been during the Billy Beane “moneyball” era than the Phils? The A’s have not won or even been to the world series during his tenure. Beane has done a great job using sabermetrics to consistently field a good team with a low payroll, but they haven’t won anything either. The Red Sox are the more appropriate example. They use sabermetrics AND have a high payroll. It’s the combination that makes them successful.

    The Phils wouldn’t be any more successful than the A’s are with the sabermetric approach because they do not spend enough money to make it really work.

71. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:21 pm

    The one about leaving Walrond in? Terrible decision..

    Feliz? a bad move? you sure? Gillick hasn’t improved this team in his short-time here?

72. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:22 pm

    The Red Sox are more appropriate. The phillies ownership has the money to employ sabremetrics and spend when necessary liek the red sox do. they did go nuts to sign dice-k, which is a little insane, but hes been very valuable to them.

    if the phillies really were cheap, theyd follow the marlins route.

73. Harry Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:23 pm

    It all starts with drafting. The Phillies draft players who have good stuff and ignore players who put up the numbers. I don’t think anyone of the Phillies understands how to even implement the statistics for determining how good a player really is. Pat Burrell is having a much better season than Howard, but everyone is going ga ga over Howard becuase of his homerun/rbi total. What’s even funnier is the fact that the Phillies won’t resign him.

74. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:24 pm

    Statistics are like bikini’s.. they show a lot…but they don’t show everything.

    -Lou Pinella

    Im guessing that you are a card-carrying member of RedSox nation, Harry?

75. Harry Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:28 pm

    Feliz is TERRIBLE. He is hitting .256 and has an OBP of .304. You honestly think that is good for a starting 3b? Dobbs should be starting at 3b.

    Don, the Phillies are good because of the core put together by Wade — Utley, Rollins, Burrell, howard, Hamels, Victorino. Gillick has failed in adding parts to make this team better. Any other GM could have done what he has done.

76. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:29 pm

    what it comes down to is the ownership looks at this team, and the fans who support it, as a cash cow scheme to loot the fans for our hard-earned money. they know it will make money with this ball park and all they need are a few exciting players to keep the team in the race and people will keep coming to the ballpark.

    if they really, legitiamtely were interested in winning, theyd change their whole approach and implement stats-based methodology such as sabremetrics, and supplement it with the other things. does the player produce on the field? then you ask, LASTLY, if they have the intangibles. if you target players who produce on the field youll find they all have intangibles anyway!

    that, coupled with spending money on the right players, and yes, keeping your elite players to make a title run, is what they must do. theyll let burrell walk and replace him with a golson (total unknown)/shitty free agent signing liek jenkins platoon. that isnt going to cut it. you have to pony it up and keep people like pat burrell and cole hamels and the like.

77. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:30 pm

    Phillies were listed at 12th in payroll, $98,269,880

    Yankees payroll… $209,081,577

78. Harry Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:30 pm

    I’m a die hard Phillies fan and HATE the Red Sox.

    So let me get this straight, Don. I back up my claim that sabermetrics works by using the Red Soxd and A’s as an example. You back up your claim that stats aren’t that important by giving me a quote from Lou Pinella? Hmmm, okay.

    Lou sure was a bad manager with the Devil Rays, but is now great again with the Cubs. Meaning, coaches don’t even really have a big impact on a teams performance. Players play the game, not coaches.

79. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:32 pm

    I dont know where you came from, but you’re a moron…. Feliz is a gold glove caliber 3b… who has some pop in his bat…. and is signed cheaply for two years.

    Unless you are one of those dudes that compares real rosters to the one that you have on your video games.. where you’re the starting centerfielder with 40 HR at the All-Star break… and A-rod at 3b, Pujols at 1st, etc..

80. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:34 pm

    Geoff… not to get completely off-track… but what homegrown talent do the RedSox have?

    Their outfeild was all traded for.. as were their top 2 pitchers in Beckett and Dice-K… and Schilling and Pedro when they were in there.. and Manny and Ortiz when they were there..

    They have some good young pitchers now.. but I would hardly call the RedSox a homegrown team.

81. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:36 pm

    No I used a quote that applies directly to Sabermetrics….and numerous managers like Tony LaRussa, Pinella, etc feel that its the most overrated thing to ever happen to baseball…

    There are two sides to the arguement… read some other books besides just MONEYBALL and you’ll get both sides of the arguement…

82. Harry Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:37 pm

    “Feliz is a gold glove caliber 3b… who has some pop in his bat.”

    Wow, do you work for the Phillies front office? Nice, the name-calling is already starting up — a sign that you realize how wrong you are. You think Feliz is good offensively becuase he has 12 homeruns this year? Don, their are other stats out their you should take a look at — OBP, Slugging, pitches per at bat, strikeout total. And I keep hearing that Feliz is a great 3b. Could you please show me the defensive stat you are using to determine this?

83. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:38 pm

    If everything revolved around Sabermetrics… we’d still have Bobby Abreu in RF and making $16M this season… and we would have never improved they way we have since the young guys have been forced to carry this team

84. Harry Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:41 pm

    I don’t even think you know what sabermetrics is. Please tell me what you think it is

    Also, what stat are you using that shows Feliz is a gold glove 3b?

85. bski Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:41 pm

    I think the statistics are great evaluation tools, but they are only part of the process. Obviously, development is another important part.

    The thing is this. Even if you continually draft and develop well and have a steady stream of young guys coming up to the big club, you’ve got to be able to keep them. You can’t continually bring a Hamels or a Howard through your system and then let them go when they hit their arbitration or free agency years. If you do that (like the A’s do), all the young guys you bring up will only be replacing the guys you are losing. The team ends up spinning it’s wheels. You need to ADD your steady stream of young guys to the guys you already have in order to truly build a great team.

    This is where the money comes in. In order to really improve, the Phils need to spend to keep guys like Howard and Hamels. They also need eat a mistake contract like Eaton’s or Jenkins’ and then spend more to bring in upgrades for those spots. If the Phils do that and then they add Carrasco, Bastardo, Savery, Golson, Marson, or whoever from the minors….Now we’re talking about building. The Phils do spend, but not enough to do this.

86. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:44 pm

    The fact that Pedro Feliz has a fielding percentage equal to Brooks Robinson.. higher than Mike Schmidt… and Schmidt (notorious for not agreeing with Phillies aquistions) came out and said how much he is impressed by Pedro Feliz.

    That makes me believe Feliz ain’t too shabby at 3b..

87. Ryan Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:47 pm

    no offense Don, but you are really embarassing yourself in this arguement. the fielding percentage stat was icing on the cake for me.

    good post bski

88. Harry Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:49 pm

    Oh, I didn’t know Schmidt said that. I guess he most know everything since he played the game. If that’s the case. we should call up John Kruk and Mitch Williams run our front office.

    You continue to argue that sabermetrics aren’t that important when you don’t even know what it even is.

89. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:51 pm

    No im trying to get this info to post where a panel conducted by Bill James last year said they would have awarded the Gold Glove to Pedro Feliz.. but its not posting.. so hang with me Harry

90. jeff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:52 pm

    if the phillies were running things based on sabermetrics, it wouldnt have stopped them from getting rid of abreu. He wasnt an especially sabermetric dude, and his salary would have made him expendable to any GM, sabermetrics or no.

    What are the odds Happ never recovers from this little turn through the bullpen?

91. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:54 pm

    From Chipper Jones:

    When I find out [Wright won] I was speechless, for quite some time,” Jones said. “Certainly the guys with the least amount of errors and best fielding percentage quite obviously didn’t win it.” The report also quoted Jones as saying, “I wouldn’t have been disappointed had someone like [Pedro] Feliz or [Aramis] Ramirez won it. I’m a little confused by the final tally, that’s a head-scratcher for me.”

92. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:55 pm

    From Bill James:

    http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/the-winners.asp

    Third Base – Pedro Feliz, San Francisco
    After last year’s incredible battle between Adrian Beltre, Scott Rolen and Joe Crede for the third base award (won by Beltre), a new combatant, Pedro Feliz, emerged and won. Rolen once again locked horns but then lost to the winner (Feliz 89 points, Rolen 83). Feliz is especially good at handling bunts and rates an A+ in this area over the last three years.

    * also note that he would have given Gold Glove at SS to Tulo, not J-Roll

93. scot Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:55 pm

    sabermetrics (n) – a contrived school of thought in which juveniles create statistical categorys, (then claim such categories are unassailable, inherently true, and faultless) in an attempt to sound smarter than the really are. sabermaticians are especially prevelant on the internets or in their parents basements next to a half eaten bag of cheetos.

94. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:57 pm

    http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/dialed_in/discussion/the_2007_nl_gold_glove_awards/

    . . .
    Despite Rolen’s prowess, the last two years the best third baseman in the NL has been Pedro Feliz of the San Francisco Giants. Feliz isn’t getting any recognition from the Rawlings voters, but he’s been significantly better than the non-Rolen winners, and better than Rolen the last couple of seasons. Feliz also had a great 24 DRS – the top fielding season. Rolen finished second with 17 DRS and Ryan Zimmerman was third with 14 DRS.

    David Wright won the Gold Glove, and he improved more than anyone else – but much of that is grounded in how poor he was in 2006.

    Dewan’s Plus/Minus had Feliz as the top fielder by a wide margin as well. Ryan Zimmerman and Aramis Ramirez finished second and third with Rolen fourth.

95. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 12:58 pm

    guys, feliz wasnt a bad singing because he doesnt make much money. hes signed really cheaply, so even if he tanks, it wont be hard to move his contract.

96. Rob Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 1:00 pm

    Gillick improved the bullpen (who weren’t even supposed to be good this year)… what else? Frankly, his blunders outweigh his success.

97. Harry Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 1:01 pm

    Thank you Jeff! At least someone knows something. People think sabermetrics is getting players with high OBP when it’s not. It’s simply signing the most valuable player for the least amount of money — getting the most bang for your buck. It just happened to be when Moneyball came out that players with high on base percentages were significantly undervalued. Now, mostly every team realizes how important this stat is, so these players don’t come cheap. Defense seems to be the next stat that teams undervalue. And I agree that if the Phillies were going strictly n the sabermetrics approach, they would have never resigned Abreu due to his declining stats and the money he was owed.

    I don’t think Haap was brought up to replace an injured Hamels, but was getting ready to replace Myers. The Phillies are kind of stuck now after Myers has had two good starts. Would anyone be opposed to replacing Kendrick with Haap?

98. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 1:01 pm

    Sorry.. just thought I’d follow through on your asking for where I got my stats.

    If you want to see where I got that original thing I was talking about from Bill James… GOOGLE, pedro feliz gold glove.

    The first thing that comes up is from the Washington Post.. for some reason it doesn’t submit when I try to enter it.. but its a short article that says how Feliz had the highest fielding %, 3rd most total chances.. etc.. its a pretty good read, and the fact that Bill James and his buddies said that he should have won the Gold Glove based on his stats, that must make it good enough for you right?

99. Geoff Says:
    August 6th, 2008 at 1:01 pm

    jenkins’ contract is worse. he makes twice as muhc money as he should make, and theyll have to eat all of his contract to get rid of him next year. terrible signing.

100. Rob Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:03 pm

     And I speak out of ignorance on this topic, but Gillick was able to succeed in other cities with seemingly much smaller markets (Toronto, Seattle, Baltimore) so what is all this I’m hearing about him being restrained by ownership. Could it be he has just made more bad decisions than good?

101. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:03 pm

     i never had a problem with feliz. thats in line with what weve been saying here. he gives you good value for what youre paying him based on his performance/stats. if he tanks out, then you can move his contract because he doesnt make a lot of money.

102. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:04 pm

     Abreu’s career OBP% of .405 makes him the best player in history according to the Oakland A’s approach..

     Obviously i’m being as ass to help me prove my point.. but there are WAY more things that go into baseball than just looking at numbers, otherwise the Oakland A’s would play the RedSox for the AL crown every year, and it would end it a tie in game 7 of ALCS…

103. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:04 pm

     that comes into play too, rob, the whole, hes making bad decisions thing. i only thinkg hes restrained becuase, yknow, i fhe wanted to make a series of good moves that would add payroll and improve the teams chances of winning a world series, i completely guarantee that the ownership would torpedo all but like one of them

104. scot Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:06 pm

     was it gillick or wade who signed rollins and utley to very reasonable contracts (well below market value) thus locking them up for years?

     that lidge trade sure was awful as well.

     dobbs. horrible signing. werth, useless. pedro feliz, just awful. durbin, a weak armed sissy. pulling romero off the heap last year, brainless. getting moyer, and then convincing him to stay in philly, idiotic.

     there are some bad signings, some bad trades. but overall, gillick has done a very good job here.

     put it this way, they didn’t make the playiffs last year, nor are they in first this year in spite of gillick. it’s more likely because of gillick.

105. mg52 Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:06 pm

     Perhaps the Phillies’ front office dwellers should do what Pat Croce did years ago: summon fans from all around and consider their suggestions. It is so obvious to viewers that the organization needs to use sabermetrics, to emphasize fundamentals, to nurture athleticism and to resurrect common sense. Doesn’t a parade for the fans mean more than a paycheck for the brass?

106. Rob Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:06 pm

     Uh Don… Red Sox $ > A’s $. Give them equal amount of money to spend and would you still stick to that point?

107. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:07 pm

     I never said Feliz wasn’t a good third baseman. I just wanted to know where you got your stats from. I’m sure you think that errors are important in evaluating how good a player is defensively. It’s nice that you found a Bill James article argreeing with you after the fact.

     I just done understand how you can defend Gillick for signing Garcia, Helms, Barajas, Eaton, Jenkins, Taguchi.

108. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:08 pm

     why did ryan zimmerman finish so highly on that list? he had 11+ throwing errors ALONE last year.

109. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:09 pm

     Probably Oakland, because I think Beane is a smarter GM and talent evaluator than Theo Epstein…

110. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:09 pm

     “Abreu’s career OBP% of .405 makes him the best player in history according to the Oakland A’s approach…”

     You seem to have trouble comprehending what sabermetrics is and what stats are used to determine a player’s value. Why don’t you go read Bill James Baseball Abstracts and then try having an argument after you actually inform yourself on the subject.

111. Rob Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:09 pm

     dude Zimmerman sucks. I go to school down in Washington and people idolize this guy. Just goes to show how little the nats have to hold on to and be proud of.

112. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:11 pm

     23 errors total

113. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:12 pm

     Also, Abreu was one of the best Phillies of all time. Are you saying he wasn’t a great player?

114. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:12 pm

     Cause you also need to look at the good players he signed… and the fact that he improved the team in both of the years he’s been here.. getting us over the hump and into the playoffs last year.

     You’re right, you never said Feliz was a bad thirdbaseman..

     you said, “Feliz is TERRIBLE. He is hitting .256 and has an OBP of .304. You honestly think that is good for a starting 3b? Dobbs should be starting at 3b.”

115. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:12 pm

     zimmerman would be great in a strong lineup, hitting 6th or 7th, with great hitters around him, but you could say that for a lot of people.

116. Rob Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:13 pm

     Abreu, another example of the Phillies getting dicked in return.

117. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:13 pm

     dobbs is not a starter at any postition, so you must be talking to someone else

118. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:14 pm

     Gillick signed Eaton to a 3years/$24.51M deal.

119. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:15 pm

     i also cant keep giving dobbs a free pass as “the best pinch hitter in baseball” when he keeps seinging at the first pitch and getting himself out in key spots. i cant believe someone that gets, what, like 20 pinch hits is considered great. hes used as a pinch hitter almost every game, and he fails all but 20 or so times and hes considered great? what the hell is that trash? hes a decent pinch hitter, btu dont get carried away.

120. Rob Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:16 pm

     All in all, Gillick did get us over the hump and into the playoffs. That is very true, but it just seems like he isn’t committed to improving this team this season. He says if we perform the way we’re capable of then we should be fine. I don’t know what fine means, but even if the Phillies play the way they are capable of… they still aren’t winning the world series. Might they get there? Doubt it. If you aren’t committed to winning the world series… then what are you?

121. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:16 pm

     the eaton thing is a prime example of why you need to employ a stats-grounded evaluation approach.

122. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:19 pm

     If you could read you would realize I was talking about his defensive abilty.

     Oh really, Gillick got us over the hump? Did he pay the Mets player to throw games becuase I’m pretty sure we luckboxed our way into the playoffs last year. ANY GM in baseball, well except for maybe Steve Phillips, could have done what Gillick has done with the core he was given.

123. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:20 pm

     Abreu is a good player.. he was my favorite player when he was on the Phillies…

     Is he a great player? No… Did his home run totals go down the tubes after they
     started checking players for steriods? Yes…

     Obviously I don’t know as much about Sabermetrics as Harry.. but what I do know is that you can’t judge players by stats alone (they don’t show everything)… Harry, can you fill me in what I can’t comprehend about Sabermetrics…

     I understand the runs-created and all that stuff..and you need baserunners to score…so you need guys on base… so you need players with high OBP%…. we were talking about GMs that use it.. Billy Beane was the first to start targeting players with high OBP% because he could sign them cheaply..and he would let other teams overpay for his overvalued players..

124. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:20 pm

     if youre not committed to winning the world series then youre a lapdog for cheap ownership. THAT is why i get upset at gillick. he has a reputation and clout. if he wanted to, he could leverage the owners into chipping in at least a little bit more. if private discussion didnt work, where hes saying “hey ive won before and i know we need this this and this or else were not going anywhere,” then you go out IN PUBLIC and out the owners to the media and say a PC-but obvious version of “we tried to get this guy or that guy but THE OWNERSHIP did not want to spend the money.”

     if he gets fired for saying that, then it will even further reinforce his statement that the ownership doesnt want to win, fan revolt, team sold, problem solved.

125. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:20 pm

     Does a great pinch hitter even exist? If there were such a thing, I’m pretty sure that player would be starting.

     The Eaton signing is an explaine of why you should employ a no-retards running the front office approach.

126. Rob Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:21 pm

     Did you even read the rest of what I wrote

127. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:21 pm

     My posts are directed to Don, not you.

128. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:23 pm

     “Harry, can you fill me in what I can’t comprehend about Sabermetrics…

     I understand the runs-created and all that stuff..and you need baserunners to score…so you need guys on base… so you need players with high OBP%…. we were talking about GMs that use it.. Billy Beane was the first to start targeting players with high OBP% because he could sign them cheaply..and he would let other teams overpay for his overvalued players..”

     What question are you asking?

129. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:23 pm

     Look at all of us arguing. This sould be directed to the Phillies front ownership.

130. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:24 pm

     So you’re giving all the credit to Ed Wade for this team’s success?

     The Mets may have collapsed last year, but we still needed to go out an win our games, and we did… Luck, I guess.. no skill involved in winning down the stretch.

     “If you could read you would realize I was talking about his defensive abilty.”

     If I could read…. so you mean he’s TERRIBLE on defense… even though all those players and talent evaluators think he deserved the gold glove?

131. Rob Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:24 pm

     I like your thinking Geoff. It would take a homegrown Philly boy to do something like that though. Some out-of-towner is gonna risk his reputation and career to appease fans and get a team he probably really doesn’t care about in the end to completely gut their management for the better. I agree though. Nothing is going to change unless they sell. Get used to second place for at least 3 or 4 more years until they break up this squad.

132. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:25 pm

     “Abreu is a good player.. he was my favorite player when he was on the Phillies…

     Is he a great player? No… ”

     You are out of your mind if you don’t think Abreu was a good player when playing for the Phillies… completely out your mind.

133. Rob Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:27 pm

     I’m pretty sure he said he was a good player.

134. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:28 pm

     Wade managed to assemble a core consisting of Burrell, Utley, Howard, Victorino, Hamels and Rollins while ownership did not allow him to make any big signings. So umm yeah, that’s what I’m saying.

     Seriously Don, are you just messing with me? You can’at be this dumb. What I said was I NEVER SAID FELIZ WASN’T GOOD DEFENSIVELY. My whole point is that it’s absurd to think Gillick signing Feliz was an unbelievable steal.

135. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:29 pm

     lol i meant great player…abreu was so underrated…. to say that he wasnt great is insane

136. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:31 pm

     I just called Abreu a good player…. and then followed that up by saying that he’s not a GREAT player..

     And you just told me that If I don’t think Abreu was a good player when playing for the Phillies… im out of my mind…

     Obviously, you didn’t read what I said, you just copied it..

     Seriously though..
     My question is.. Since you keep telling me that I don’t understand sabermetrics, could you tell me what I don’t know? I’ve said what I understand about it, so what parts don’t I get? I

137. Rob Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:32 pm

     Ya man, I kind of agree with Harry. Defensive players don’t hang around on teams for the long run. It’s a convenient excuse to plug them into the lineup. .256 just isn’t going to cut it if it keeps up.

138. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:34 pm

     Geoff, I agree 100% with your thought process behind what Gillick could have said in public… but who the hell is going to lash out against ownership… He’d lose his job and never get hired again… granted he’s old… but he wants to keep working, and would enver be able to find another job again.

     I don’t agree with everything at my job, but I’m not about to revolt and get fired over it… can’t really fault the man there.

139. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

     But niether of us have been around in our fields for as long as gillick has. what he says to the owners in private or to the fans in public carries serious weight because of his track record. if the owners dont respect his opinion in private, and its obvious what their intentions are, then i feel its his obligation to let a little something “accidentally” slip out in an interview.

140. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

     The league average in the AL is .269, in the NL its .265…..

     When a guy is hitting .256 with some Home Runs… from the 6th or 7th spot in your lineup… but he’s playing Gold Glove caliber defense (still disagree, Harry?) he’s an asset to your team.

141. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:39 pm

     It doesn’t seem like you know much of anything about it. You seem to think that fielding percentage is a good indication of how good a player is defensively.

     Player A has a fielding percentage of 100% because he stands in one spot and only catches balls hit right to him. Player B has unbelievable range but has a fielding percentage of 98%. According to your logic, player A is better.

     I got the impression that you think/thought sabermetics was going after players with high on base percentages, when it isn’t. As I’ve said before, it’s signing players who provide the most value — and the stats determining how valuable a player is are not homeruns and RBI’s (and lol at the people who thought Howard deserved to be an all-star because he led the league in those two categories)

142. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:40 pm

     From everything that has come out… including public comments from Gillick and Amaro that the ownership understands, and is on-board with the fact that they need to being in a top-of-the-rotation starting pitcher this offseason, in order to contend…

     that leads me to believe that they have had those conversations with ownership..and have made their views known

143. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

     i certaintly hope the ownership understands that. i really do. i hope they actually do it this time.

144. bski Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

     Ryan, thanks…..Fellas, I hate to rain on this sunshine parade, but Getting back to the money…..According to published reports, the Phils are around 12th or 13th both in revenue and in payroll spending, so it appears that they do just like everyone else does. We can continue calling them cheap forever if we want, but we know it won’t change. Our payroll did jump noticeably when we moved into CBP.

     My main concern about this money situation is that the Mets are moving into their new ballpark next year. Their payroll is significantly higher than ours now, and we have trouble beating them. Next year I would expect them to enter into the Yankees/Red Sox neighborhood of payroll expenditure which means if we stay as is, it’s going to be much more difficult to stay with them.

145. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:45 pm

     I’m wrong… me, Mike Schmidt, Chipper Jones, Bill James… and anyone else that thinks that Pedro Feliz is a good defensive 3b..

146. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:45 pm

     “The league average in the AL is .269, in the NL its .265…..

     When a guy is hitting .256 with some Home Runs… from the 6th or 7th spot in your lineup… but he’s playing Gold Glove caliber defense (still disagree, Harry?) he’s an asset to your team.”

     Sigh… Don, lets compare stats amount NL 3b.

     Average – 8 out of 12
     OBP – 11 out of 12
     Slugging – 10 out of 12
     Extra base hits – 12 out of 12

     You know you’re argument is weak when you’re trying to say that Feliz is almost an average hitter.

147. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:47 pm

     I think the Mets are already 2nd or 4th or something in Payroll?? But that is definitely going to bring them in TONS of money

148. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:49 pm

     I’m pretty sure your entire arguement was that FELIZ IS TERRIBLE… and i’ve proved that he’s not… if you would really rather have Greg Dobbs starting at 3b.. then you are smart because obviously Dobbs is a much better 3b than Feliz..

149. Bruce Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:52 pm

     Harry~ Allow me to interject here on your interesting debate with Don M regarding the subject of sabermetrics. Obviously, it has value with today’s generation of statisticians and those who choose to use it in their profession (sports). Also I notice it’s become a popular addition to fantasy sports such as sabermetric-based video games which I suspect you’re a owner of one. However, I’m sure you would agree that one can’t refute the value of intangibles such as all scouts used in evaluating a player’s worth. Stats only tell a part of what makes a player outstanding. How do you measure personality and attitude? His rapport with the teammates? And team leadership? How he conducts himself on and off the field? His citizenship? The town he represents when he puts on that uniform?

     Let me pose a question to you: would you choose “Manny being Manny” Ramirez or Chase Utley to be the “face” of your team?

150. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:54 pm

     “I got the impression that you think/thought sabermetics was going after players with high on base percentages, when it isn’t. As I’ve said before, it’s signing players who provide the most value — and the stats determining how valuable a player is are not homeruns and RBI’s (and lol at the people who thought Howard deserved to be an all-star because he led the league in those two categories)”

     What are the stats that teams use to see which players provide the most value? If its not OBP, Home Runs, or RBIs… is it Sac-Flys?

     I was pretty sure that A’s were into “runs created” and targeted players with high OBP.. Of course the only book I’ve read directly related to that was MONEYBALL…which talks directly about how the A’s targeted players with high OBP.

     If your arguement is the RedSox than you also need to ackonwledge the fact that they had one of the highest payrolls in baseball.. and obtained whatever players they needed (much better job of spending by Epstein than Cashman..) But not everyteam uses the same stats as to what is important..and some teams think the whole stats-explosion is overrated.

151. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:56 pm

     you can GUARANTEE the mets will be in yankee-land in terms of payroll next year or two. guaranteed. the phillies have had 35 sellouts this year alone, highest attendance ever, and they have not boosted payroll this year. they had BETTER do it next year, because thats what you do. you reward fan support with an investment in the team because you have extra money now. the phils could field a 130-140 mm payroll next year easily, and im not even saying you need all that if you make good decisions.

     last years reported numbers: 192mm in revenue, 113mm spent in total systemwide payroll. they spent 59% of reported revenue on payroll. that was 10th in mlb. they cleared 79mm, money not spent on payroll, which ranked 14th in mlb.

     then you go and look at the inside numbers, after people have broken it down and cleared out the false reporting, and you get 98mm spent in 2007, so they lied about a good 15mm. (fox sports) out of 192mm in REPORTED revenue, that 98mm is 51%, PUTTING THEM IN A TIE WITH THE BRAVES, BREWERS, AND RANGERS FOR 21st in MLB!

     so they lie about their payroll, and when foxsports reports their real payroll, taken as a percentage of REPORTED revenue, which we all know is always less than real revenue, that puts them in the bottom third of MLB in terms of what portion of their earnings they are spending on payroll and putting back into the team.

     thats CRIMINAL!

152. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:58 pm

     they are beyond skimming here, they are LOOTING.

153. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

     Most 3b (including Ryan Braun… the NL MVP this year) hit much higher than 6th or 7th in their lineups too… nobody said Feliz was a powerhouse, and the Phillies obviously did not bring him in for his bat… but he has a couple game-winners this year, and comes through with some timely hits..

     Calling him a bad signing by Gillick makes you sound like a fool

154. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

     Bruce,

     I am not saying that those intangibles do not carry any weight. In fact, I think they are pretty important when evaluating a player’s performance. All I am saying is that the Phillies continue to ignore sabermetrics and instead go on gut feelings.

155. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:03 pm

     Also, oI would choose Chase because he excels at a position where a lot of good palyers don’t exist. So although Manny is a great corner outfielder, I would get a replacement who could but up somewhat close numbers, while it would be hard to find another 2b to place Utley. Also, Manny is a liability on defense

     Now, ignoring defense and assumming they both play the same position for the same amount of years, I go with Manny. No one had a problem with Manny when the Red Sox won two world series. This is the problem with the Phillies. They place to high of a value on being a good guy.

156. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:04 pm

     “and some teams think the whole stats-explosion is overrated.”

     Yeah, the losing teams. The A’s managed to be one of the best teams in baseball for a span of 5-6 years while being in the bottom 3 in payroll. Another coincidence.

157. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:05 pm

     Geoff, those numbers are all over the place.. they also need to pay for things like utilities for the stadium, and non-player payroll, and all the charities they give money too, and stuff too…

     The Phillies spend a good amount of their money…less than some teams, and much more than others.. They could increase payroll, but it would come directly from the owners wallets.. and they are finally starting to come around to the fact that if they want to keep butts in the seats, they need to do that…. cause nobody is going just to see the ballpark anymore

158. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:06 pm

     Don,

     I like how you keep talking about Pedro Feliz being our savior, while ignoring the Garcia, Eaton, Barajas, Helms and Jenkins signings.

159. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

     right don, but those other expendatures are not as widely reported and are harder to find. so i dotn have anything to go on and you can assume theres is a chunk there that went to that.

     i hope they realize that, because if they do not make big strides next year and in 2010, i guarantee you will start to see noticeable drops in revenue and attendance.

160. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:10 pm

     Didn’t the Cardinals just win a World Series? and LaRussa and Walk Jocketty are probably the guys that go against sabermetrics the most.

     All things considered… you need to look at more than just hustle.. you need to look at more than just stats..

     And the Phillies improved both years with Gillick at the helm, adding pieces to the puzzle, (some TERRIBLE… some very good and fit just right, just the tip)… but for people to bash these guys for bad signing and not give them credit for good ones (calling it LUCK)… makes you sound bitter, and like I said.. people would complain no matter who the GM was.. people would complain if they would have signed Lowell…or A-rod…or whoever… because people like to complain

161. Rob Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:12 pm

     It’s our duty to complain as long as we don’t win a world series.

162. bski Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:13 pm

     Geoff, I’m glad to see that I am not the only conspiracy theorist out there regarding MLB teams and their revenue reporting.

     I don’t know if you’ve ever read anything by Andrew Zimbalist. He is an economist, a professor at Smith College, and he has written a few books about baseball economics. Very interesting stuff.

     A couple quick things about it….You got it right, the revenue numbers are what was REPORTED, not the actual numbers. Just like any major corporation, MLB teams have accountants that finagle the numbers and hide money. There are many reasons for this of course, like revenue sharing, for example.

     The bottom line is that MLB teams are very good at obfuscating (lying is such a nasty word) about their financial picture. Although we will never know how much, it is beyond question that they are hiding money.

163. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

     Are you serious? All i did was point out the fact that Feliz wasn’t a TERRIBLE player and bad signing… that he was, in fact, a VERY GOOD signing..

     He may not be GREAT like Bobby Abreu… but he’s not bad..

     I don’t think you read anything that anone else writes…

     I’ve said all along that he’s made some bad moves (but all GMs do)…but that his good moves have outweighed the bad, and improved this team since he’s been here… its either that or LUCK…

164. Matt Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

     I would put money on Don working in the Phillies front office. It would explain a lot of things, including the idiocy.

165. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:16 pm

     good call matt

166. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:17 pm

     im not sure about don. i dont think he does. but EVERYONE on this board knows the one guy here that DEFINITELY works for the phililes….Bruuuuuuuuuce, which guys assistant are you Bruce? gillick or amaro????

167. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:19 pm

     Geoff, you’re right …. if in 2-3 years, this team hasn’t gotten any closer to a World Series, and the team hasn’t increased payroll enough to prove that they are indeed trying to win a championship… they will have a tough time getting 20,000 people to the games..

     in the meantime.. why not enjoy the team as they are and hope they make a run in the postseason

168. bski Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:21 pm

     Don & Harry….Please excuse me for entering into your Feliz discussion, but let’s take the glass half-full approach, shall we. We could still have Wes Helms or Abraham Nunez there.

169. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:21 pm

     everyone knows that EVERYONE: sports teams, corporations, citizens, and ESPECIALLY the government ALL misreport their financial operations. you think the govt is being honest when they say that the jobless rate is 5.9%? HAHAHAHA, try like 17%

     weve been in a downturn since 2006, and have been in a flat out recession almost long enough for it to be technically considered a “textbook,” not great, depression. (recession = 2 quarters of negative growth, depression = 4 quarters negative growth).

     so if all this stuff goes on, and we all know it goes on. (this is all really obvious, right? it should be), then OF COURSE mlb teams lie about their payroll and revenue figures.

170. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:22 pm

     bruuuuuuuuuuuce. where are you bruce?

171. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:25 pm

     haha.. me and Bruce tend to agree on a lot of stuff… Phil too. not sure where he’s at today.. but he usually has a more level-headed view of things.

     I just try to point out the facts, and make everyone stop and think, and not just repeat whatever the morons on 610wip are yelling about..

     There are some real issues.. I was the one calling for Rollins and Victorino’s heads when the team was losing and they weren’t doing anything (instead of going after 8-hole hitter Carlos Ruiz, and So Taguchi and stuff)… And as much as people want to say Ed Wade sucks, Gillick sucks, Amaro sucks, and Arbuckle sucks… SOMEBODY has to be credited with putting this team together… right?

172. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:26 pm

     “everyone knows that EVERYONE: sports teams, corporations, citizens, and ESPECIALLY the government ALL misreport their financial operations.”

     True, but it just feels so wrong when a sports team does it.

173. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:28 pm

     OH, ITS DEFINITELY WRONG. im with you 100 percent there.

     bruce is worse, to bruce, pat gillick is some sort of demigod.

174. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

     What feels so wrong is that WE are all watching this team at home everynight, or going to the park, spending $10+ to park, $7 for a beer, $3.50 for a bottle of water, etc.. .

     And that the fans all want to win more than the owners do…

     Honestly, Mark Cuban or Ed Snider would be AWESOME to have as the owners of this club.. but the guys currently in place are making $$$millions.. so they aren’t going away anytime soon… it all comes down to it being a business.. and the fans get screwed because of it

175. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

     I just started posting on this site. I am really eager to meet this Bruce you speak of.

     I love Victorino and think he is one of the most overrated players in the league. He is so good defensively… Mi thoughts on Rollins is that his heart (omg intangible!!!!) just isn’t in it this year. I understand that he had a career year last season, but he is still under performing. I would definitely not resign him after his current contract is up.

     What are your feelings on Burrell. Would you want to resign him?

176. Don M Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:37 pm

     it was said that the Phillies offered Burrell $20 M over 2years… and his agent said that it wasn’t even close to what they were looking for..

     If he stays healthy for the remainder of the year.. you need to resign him for 3-4 or something… he’s arguably the most consistent guy on the entire team this year, Chase included…

     But if the Yankees or someone is going to overpay, you can’t go matching crazy dollars just to keep him, cause they need starting pitching more than anything.

     Rollins has been disappointing this year, but when he’s going he can still spark this team… same with Victorino.. I’m a big fan of both of those guys, and it would be a big blow to this team if either of them wasn’t in the lineup.

177. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:40 pm

     Im on board with you about burrell. hes been the most reliable this year, especially in clutch situations. he is a MUST keep. if he doesnt stay, theyd BETTER replace that production with something just as good. which isnt really out there in terms of free agency, which makes asigning him all the more important.

178. Harry Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:40 pm

     I think the majority of people are realizing how valuable Pat is to a team. I love him, it’s going to be sad if they don’t re-sign him.

179. Geoff Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 2:45 pm

     hes all settled in in philly too. if they cause him to have to leave ill bet hell be pissed.

180. Darren Daulton Says:
     August 6th, 2008 at 3:14 pm

     I was driving down the New Gersey turnpike and I had to make a left. Since I was in Gersey, I had to make a gughandle turn, which is gust stupid. Anyone, while waiting it traffic, I got to thinking, all this gabbering about Gamie Moyer and the Phillies recent loss is getting old. The Phillies are gust not good enough. So go shots of gaeger or go hang out in the Vet’s old gail and stop wasting your time worrying about the Phillies’ chances. They are going nowhere. I know- I’m psychic.

     Anyone care to buy a J? Geoff?

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