Phillies Nation

64 Responses to “More Holliday Rumors”

1. MP Says:
   November 7th, 2008 at 10:36 am

   Say it isn’t so. Just the thought of Victorino or Werth leaving has crushed my good day so far.

   My personal feelings aside for these two tremendous players – if this were to happen, I think it would be a joke. You trade two great outfielders who can hit for one outfielder who would give us one year? We can potentially keep Vic and Werth for a few years. Just one of them is worth more than Holliday. Look, if we lose Burrell, which is looking more and more likely, I’m all for building a team to help us win that trophy again. But I do NOT think, if we have basically the same core guys, we get there without Victorino and Werth because it would break up part of that core.

2. Chris.I Says:
   November 7th, 2008 at 10:42 am

   Yea I agree. As much as I want Holliday to be a Philli next year, the price tag is just getting to absurd now. From what I gather is….The Rox are testing Amaro because maybe they feel he’s too inexpierienced, and eager to get a deal like this done. Just a note to Amaro…Not Shane or Werth. We will hate you for forever.

3. MP Says:
   November 7th, 2008 at 10:44 am

   I am more than willing to give Amaro the benefit of the doubt, if this happens his relationship with the fans will be off to an awful start.

4. NEPA Says:
   November 7th, 2008 at 10:46 am

   MP – I think that Werth was being added to the list of possible players, not that he AND Vic were both going to be shipped out, because that would never happen. I love both these guys, neither of them should leave.

   I would only want this trade if it involves prospects because like Tim said, we would be getting two top draft picks for him if we weren’t able to sign him at the end of 2009. Golson can absolutely leave for all I care. I love his speed but we have no more room for a guy that strikes out that much. Marson I don’t want going anywhere. I see him as the catcher of the future for many years to come. After that, I’d send out Happ quicker than Carrasco.

5. Dennis Says:
   November 7th, 2008 at 10:51 am

   If they can get Holiday and keep the core players(Victorino, Werth, etc…). I would give them any prospects they want for him, he is a proven player! Unlike anybody in the farm system….

6. NEPA Says:
   November 7th, 2008 at 10:57 am

   Dennis – I would completely agree with you if it was a guarantee that we would sign him after 2009. But giving away any prospects they want for a 1 year rental isn’t smart, especially since we just won a world championship.

7. MP Says:
   November 7th, 2008 at 10:59 am

   Yeah I completely agree – give up any prospects, except Marson I think, but don’t trade our core guys.

8. Sct Says:
   November 7th, 2008 at 11:03 am

   To be honest, I’m okay with Werth going for Holliday if (a) the trade is fair and (b) there’s a plausible solution for the third outfield slot. I don’t really consider Jenkins, Stairs and Dobbs a plausible solution. The idea of watching Stairs try to jump for a fly ball at the wall makes me cringe.

   It seems likely that Werth had a career second-half. If we can trade him above-value now, it wouldn’t be a bad move. I love Werth, but we’ve only been calling him a “core player” for less than half a season.

   Victorino for Holliday is crazy talk. Maybe that’s an emotional response, but it’s an emotional game.

9. NJ Says:
   November 7th, 2008 at 11:04 am

   Although this could all be rumor it seems like were running towards another championship with the likehood of tripping over ourselves than taking one step at a time. The situation with Burrell needs to be addressed and if he leaves then we have to look to how to stablize the situation in left rather than reach and upset the chemistry of the team by adding a guy with attitude or an inability to man the position in most games.

   Keeping a power bat in left isn’t going to win this team another championship, sustaining the level of pitching and getting more production from the core players will put this team in position to maybe add Holliday at the deadline or a suitable impact player but mortgaging our future for a guy who’s walking at the end of the year isn’t the answer. I’m all for giving up certain prospects for rentals and taking the draft compensation but Holliday is too expensive. Victorino, Carrasco and Marson have to be unavailable as their too important to the teams future, Werth is too important now and there’s no way the Rockies take a deal headlined by Happ and Donald and frankly we have a lot to loose right now.

   The Phillies now have the ability to see October on a regular basis and we can’t drain the well to try and force another championship now. If this season has taught the Phillies anything it’s that wise decisions are what’s needed not knee-jerk reactions and the teams success will be predicated on strong starting pitching, production from the core players already on this roster and an efficient and healthy bullpen.

10. Geoff Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 11:05 am

    Who does colorado think they are? Matt Hollidays value is WAY overblown.

    Even if hes not a total fraud, which i think he will turn out to be, the rockies have NO leverage at all. Hes going to leave after this year and theyre not going to make the playoffs again this year.

    Giving up shane victorino or jayson werth in this trade is retarded. it makes no sense, and it sets the team back 4 or 5 years in terms of their outfield.

    i mean, really? those are the only two solid players they have in the outfield IN THE WHOLE SYSTEM who are under team control who can play in MLB everyday. giving up just one of them is a horrible idea.

    id offer a take it or leave it pacakge of JA Happ (good, but not enough room for him because theyre going to bring in another starter) & greg golson (bust, cant hit, michael bourn 2.0) & id try to force adam eaton on them and make them take on 2 mm of his contract.

    seriuosly though, i have no ineterest at all in matt holliday. its a stupid idea to begin with. just sign rocco baldelli or trade for ryan ludwick (cheaper, but better option for this team) and sign a starting pitcher to round out the rotation. they might have to trade for or sign two if they cant get on teh same page with moyer. You can toss kendrick into the ludwick deal, because dave duncan can probably turn him into a 3rd starter out there.

11. Geoff Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 11:08 am

    i honestly don think they will make this trade. i think its all BS. it doesnt make any sense. now that theyve won a WS they can settle down and hol,d onto their top young players. maybe move a few prospects for a LF thats NOT holliday whos cheaper and under control for two or so years and who can do a nice job oiut there.

    im still more concerned with adding a late reliever and a starting pitcher.

12. Dennis Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 11:18 am

    Geoff,

    I just want some of what your smoking! You clearly have the good shit, where do u get it? 8th and Ontario?

13. Geoff Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 11:24 am

    There are so many examples of this in sports its ridiculous to even debate. Just like anything else, even in politics. Just refer to history instead of wasting your time arguing over whether or not its true or not.

    IN any event, tehre are dozens of examples of people like Holliday, especially in Colorado, who get overhyped and leave to a bigger team, only to totally bust once they get that 100 mm contract. Is he really much different from Mike Hampton or Barry Zito, or someone like that?

    Someomes going to give him an insane contract and theyre going to SORELY regret it.

14. Geoff Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 11:25 am

    This trade would also cripple our team for years for a ONE YEAR RENTAL. get it through your skulls, this team will NOT pay holliday that money to stay beyond one year. its a stupid waste of good young prospects for ONE YEAR of an overrated player.

    we shouldnt even be debating this, this is insane, its a terrible idea.

15. Matt Kwasiborski Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 11:28 am

    Geoff- why would STL trade Ludwick? And what makes you think Baldelli is a good option? Ludwick is a great compliment to Puljos and Baldelli probably cannot play a full season in the show.

    If Holliday is traded here, it gives him a wonderful opportunity to prove he isn’t just a “home field” guy. Plus, why wouldn’t his numbers at the Bank be similar if not better with a better offense around him? He is a tremendous upgrade over Burrell. I love Pat and always defended him but no team is going to pay him 14M to either DH or play 7 innings a game.

    Prospects- we need to keep Vic and Werth and give them some prospects. They will want pitching plus one or two others. That leaves Carrasco, Happ, Kendrick as options. Throw in Donald and you got a deal.

    Remember, our core is not as young as the Rays. The Phillies want to make another serious run next year and that will mean sacrificing part of the future. Hence the interest in Holliday.

    The other option is exploring trading our core like Rollins, etc to see if they want to go younger first.

    We are in a great position right now and we should go for it again next year. I am still in favor to see what CC wants though. He is a flyball pitcher which means he probably won’t consider us much like why Peavy hasn’t taken us off his no-trade list. But still kick the tires with his agent. It isn’t often we have come to the winter meetings as WS champions which means some prospects are probably overrated right now.

16. Griffin Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 11:47 am

    Ludwick will be 31 next year and has never, ever had a year like 2008 before. Trading for him would be buying high. He could turn into a pumpkin (like Kendrick this year). I would avoid him like the plague. I don’t blame the Cardinals for shopping him.

17. Johnny Snowden Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 11:49 am

    Matt K,

    So basically what you’re saying is … you want to turn this team into the mets? by signing the biggest name overrated loosers? I mean why not though … we could sign peavy and cc and trade half of our mlb potential farm system for halliday. Im not trying to sound like a total jerk man … im just saying that gilick has proved that those moves that you’re talking about won’t win you a world championship and i would seriosuly eat ALL my phillies hats if halliday was anything other than a contingency plan if the phillies can’t resign burrell.

18. Geoff Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 11:52 am

    Im sorry but i really dont belive in overpriced one year rentals. i cant recall too many big blockbuster deals in MLB for one year that have really worked out AND RESULTED IN A CHAMPIONSHIP.

    you think this team is going to chagne a philosphy that won them a championship? if anything, id rather seea trade for a strong starting pitcher to bolster that rotation.

    st louis has been trying to trade ludwick for holliday. st louis needs a shortstop and some more pitching and a backup catcher. (donald, happ, darnaud), and you sweeten it up a bit to pry ludwick loose. st louis can then go out and sign some LF power with the money they saved by making this trade instead of getting holliday.

    i just have a very very bad feeling about this guy when he leaves colorado. colorado has had so many players totally bust out when they go somewhere else, pitchers included.

19. Phil Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 11:57 am

    People need to learn how to spell players names. Holliday or Halladay. Which do you mean. I’m confused.

20. mike Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 11:58 am

    I would not make this trade. Why ruin the future of the team for one year of Matt Holliday? He can’t hit like Manny, who i also would not want just based on the fact he’s crazy. he is a minor defensive upgrade over Pat and who knows how well he can hit outside of Coors Field. Is it me or didn’t we just win the world series? Why ruin what works.

21. Rob Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 11:59 am

    I’m saying it’s gonna be a three way deal with the Phils-Cards-Rockies with Ludwick coming to the Phillies somehow and all I see the Phillies giving up is like JA Happ and Kendrick idk some low risk type player or something like that (going to the Rockies) while the Cards send Ludwick to the Phils and like two young pitchers or position players to the rockies. This way the Rockies get a 4 for 1, the philsgive up very little for an everyday player and the cards get matt holliday (and they can have him).

22. Manny Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

    Ditto, Geoff. This is utter nonsense.

23. Rob Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:02 pm

    And considering what the Rockies were looking for and how all those reports said they would consider taking less perhaps… this seems like the only likely scenario where (if I were the Rockies) I would take “less” for Matt Holliday if I was getting a rotation starter + 3 other players (considering at least 1 or 2 of them will probably be on the cusp of MLB.

24. dan da man Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:04 pm

    Geoff- Dude you don’t know crap. Holliday is a proven player with a lot of potential and his stats say it all. You have a bad feeling? That he wont be as good when he leaves colorado? I agree with dennis. I think your smoking. But i dont care how good he is, victorino and werth should NOT be mentioned in the deal.

25. Johnny Snowden Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

    haha sorry phil … HOLLIDAY … i misspell a lot when i get excited. and is anyone else listening to this? 25 mil a year not enough for manny according to scott boras. dont get me wrong … i dont care what happens to manny so long as he stays out of the NL east, but … thats just crazy … 25 mil a year “way off from our minimum.”

26. Geoff Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

    I mentioned ludwick because i think hed be cheaper and has RH power…tehre are plenty of guys out there to trade for.

    i admit, i wass wrong about gillick. amaro learned from gillick so i dont think hell do this. matt holliday is the most overrated player in recent memory. stop it already. ALSO…colroado is asking for werth or shane. THATS AN AUTOMATIC CASE OF IMMEDITATELY HANGING UP THE PHONE.

    no chance in hell. you dont give up either of those two. players JUST NOW hitting the prime of their careers. under team control for two or more years. for one year of holliday.

    that would be the dumbest trade in years. seriously.

27. Red Barons Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:13 pm

    Prospects for Holliday would be perfect. In that case, if we can’t re-sign him then we get top draft picks. But I don’t like the idea of messing with this core of players.

28. Geoff Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:14 pm

    noone who knows anything about baseball would make the rumored trade of vic or werth plus 3 other prospects for this guy. noone. shane victorino is worth two matt hollidays with how important he was to the WS championship. jayson werth is a solid everyday player who played well int eh playoffs. matt holliday is a younger version of pat burrell. he hasnt played a full season IN HIS WHOLE CAREER. ALWAYS missing at least 20 games with an injury. he has a good batting average but he only had two monster years. and then got hurt again. hes not the best defensive player either so charlie would pull him for eric bruntlett again anyway.

    this is a joke. theres no way you make this trade. i like robs idea of swinging the trade for ludwick and having holliday go to stl.

29. Memphis Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:18 pm

    Yeah, Geoff is on fire. Love it. But let’s step away from the ledge. We’re just talking trade. Even for the Holliday doubters, there has to be some offer you’d be happy with to have him for one (contract) year — because someone will likely get him for one year. (Cardinals are rumored to be offering Ludwick, so they may prefer Holliday too.) He’s better than Burrell, he’s better than any tandem currently on the roster, so he’d be an improvement in some way (could be minor, could be huge). No one is saying pay him $100M. I just like the fact that he hits for average and pop, and he can steal bases. I could argue that Vic and Werth (recently a part-timer), coming off career years, are replaceable and likely over-valued because we know them well and they were key parts of a championship team. But blind loyalty to average/above-average players can also be crippling. If we had any confidence that we’d lock up Holliday beyond one year, you’d have to prefer him over Vic or Werth, c’mon. But we have no confidence we can do that. So hopefully we offer something decent, not too much (not Vic, Werth, Carrasco), and we have a sick lineup next year. Colorado is in a really bad position, and smart teams take advantage of that. We have that chance, and we’re talking. I like it. Would you do it for Madson (likely gone after 2009) and Golson? Madson is awesome, but his value could not be higher right now.

30. timb Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:20 pm

    Geoff, what is overrated about Holliday? I remember him tagging us in CBP last playoff pretty good and his career stats speak for themselves. I agree with most posters here that we shouldn’t trade Vic and I’d be hesitant to trade Werth, but Holliday would give us the sickest lineup in the majors. He would improve the stats of everyone else. Just imagine what Utley and Howard could do batting before and after this guy.

    But, if you’d rather have Jenkins in left…. I guess I could understand your logic.

31. Geoff Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:29 pm

    For One year, yes, if you offer happ and like golson or donald and some filler. thats not bad if he stays healthy. to offer shane or werth is totally insane and counterproductive though. i cant believe some people are considering that idea at all. ok, if holliday stays healthy he can have a good year for us, just dont get carried away. jhes a more modern version of burrell. but hes no ryan howard and HE NEVER WILL BE.

32. Geoff Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:34 pm

    no…id rather them trade for someome else. if you have to platoon some cheap FA with jenkins then id rather look elsewhere for a trade. st louis wants to trade ludwick for holliday, so look into that. what about eric byrnes? josh willingham? question marks for each of those guys too. the rays wont trade crawford to us, no way. nady and bay just got traded and arent going anywhere this year. manny – hell no. milton bradley? hell no. juan rivera? eh, platoon with jenkins…pass. hairston? pass. mench? pass. baldelli would have to platoon with jenkins if hes not really healthy. that could be ok and cheap if you cant get someome better. holliday….thats what the mets and yankees would do and it would backfire on them so, no. dont want franceour.

    the best, most reasonable cheap option to trade for would actually eb ludwick if theyll listen.

33. Griffin Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:38 pm

    Matt Holliday is a better player than Victorino, Werth or even Howard. The problem with trading for him is that you’re only getting one year of him. Boras is his agent and he’s not going to do a trade and sign (like Johan Santana last year) so you’re only getting 162 games of Holliday.

    That being said, he’s a heck of a player. For those who think he’s only a slight upgrade of Burrell in the field or on the bases, Holliday stole 28 bases last year. That’s only 8 less than Victorino.

34. Geoff Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

    shane victorino is one of the most valuable players on teh team. hes untouchable. there isnt a CF is rather have at his age AND price in teh game of baseball right now. he brings so much to the table its ridiculous. when hes on the top of his game he shows flashes of pete rose. noones that good all the time, but ever since charlie straightened him out in june hes been their best player all around i think.

35. From Section 113 Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:48 pm

    Griffin- I totally agree. People love Vic and Werth here, but Holliday is better. He’s just not worth the price for 1 yr. He’s better than anyone in our OF right now and I would say is even with Howard.

    Just note that 1/3 of ALL Holliday’s SBs were off the Padres last yr. THey are horrible at keeping runners on. I think Young was 44/44 when base stealers attempted to steal off him.

    Still he would give us at least 15 SBs just not a huge fan of the cost.

36. Griffin Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:50 pm

    Geoff, I like Victorino too and I wouldn’t trade him for one year of Holliday. But, I would trade some prospects for one year of Holliday. The Phillies are built to win now and adding Holliday would improve the team and would save us from a Milton Bradley/Jenkins platoon.

    But my top priority would be another SP. I don’t know who we could get in a trade, but I’d rather use the prospects in a deal for a starter.

37. Mazinman Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:56 pm

    A deal like that does not make much sense to me. In essence you are losing Burrell and Victorino/Werth for Holliday. Not much of an upgrade in my book.

    My hunch is that the Phillies getting so aggressive on getting Holliday is a negotiation strategy to get Burrell to sign with them now.

38. Griffin Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:58 pm

    I agree Section 113, he’s never going to steal that many bases again. But he is a very good player and it’s worth it to see which prospects it would take to bring him here, if only for one year.

    I think the Yankees are going to overpay for Sabathia and either Lowe or Burnett. That means that Sheets is probably the top FA starter on the market, but he’s never healthy. Does anyone know of any starters that are on the trading block, besides Peavy who won’t agree to come to Philly.

39. From Section 113 Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 1:14 pm

    Rob-

    I do believe you mentioned somewhere about a 3 team trade with the Rockies and Cards. That would be the best.

    Cards get—–Holliday, Coste
    Phills get——Ludwick, low prospect reliever type
    Rockies get—Happ/Golson/ Herron/Chris Duncan

    THoughts?????

40. Jerm Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 1:14 pm

    Look, all this talk of Vic and Werth having career years is bunk. this was their first years as full time starters. who knows what their careers years could be like? Matt Holliday is a lot better than Pat the Bat. I will take his avg over Pats sporadic bursts of power anyday. Lets think of the ridiculous offensive power that would be in the Phils lineup, bookended by high avg guys like Rollins and Holliday. Rollins had an off year, Utley cooled off, throw Holliday in there, line drives in the bank and you’ve got a truyly ridiculous lineup, 1 through 6, with the potential of marson coming up and making it 1 through 7. Pull the trigger and get Holliday for 1 year for a collection of roster ready players and proven contibutors like JA Happ or Kendrick. If he proves hes not a home field hitter then deal with it next year.

41. Memphis Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 1:46 pm

    Let’s not get crazy over Ludwick, he had a tremendous bust-out year, but he has a history of injuries, he’s 30, and he’s played a lot here in Memphis for the Redbirds. Great story, but Cards are looking to flip him at his utterly highest value, which is smart. Ludwick is arbitration-eligible and will likely get in the area of $5M, maybe more.
    http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/B7C6D1B5032D47D4862574FA00184F9C?OpenDocument

    I realize the Phils need to keep finding high-production, low-salary players, but at some point, that’s very hard to sustain. I would not trade any top prospects for Ludwick. The guy was a decent, over-the-hill prospect himself just 12 months ago.

    As for Vic and Werth, the career year argument is just that the chances of Vic and Werth having better years than they had in 2008 is not high, based on their history. Not impossible, obviously (look at Ludwick). Would love to see them improve, but to count on it is risky. In Victorino’s case, where we have more history to go on, 2008 doesn’t look that much different than ‘06 or ‘07 but he had a lot more at-bats this year and we add on the playoff glory. For Werth, he could see better overall numbers with more at-bats, but that’s not a guarantee. But as we sit here today, they both had their best years in 2008, exceeding expectations. In both cases, their trade value has never been higher, just something to consider, not that we should trade them. There are many good arguments not to trade them, including their intangibles, versatility, and low cost. But we’re not talking about all-stars here. Very nice role players at the height of their historic value.

42. Alphonse Dattolo Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 1:48 pm

    SHANE AND JASON SHOULD NBEVER BE TRADED. WITHOUT THEM WE WOULD NOT HAVE WON THE 2008 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP! I HAVE BEEN A PHILLIES FAN FOR 49 YEARS.

43. Mike S. Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 1:57 pm

    this is just getting stupid now.

    You’re going to give away either Vic or Werth and probably 2 of our top prospects for a one year rental? Who doesn’t hit as well away from Coors field?

    I would take Holliday ONLY if he gave proof he would sign after ‘09
    What’s the point of getting a one year rental…WE ARE CHAMPS
    we don’t need a missing piece…
    and this would only cause a short solution, we’d have to go get another left fielder in a year anyway…

    this is stupid, so stupid.
    we should be looking to lock up Cole, Ryan, Madson, Vic, Werth and anyone else we can….stock up the farm system..THEN GO OUTSIDE..

    Come on Ruben….don’t be a dumb ass…..DON’T BE ED WADE

44. Jim Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 2:12 pm

    Mike S. – i think your forgetting that if we sign holliday its because we have already lost a piece, pat burrell.

45. Megary Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 2:17 pm

    What a horrible year for FA outfielders…
    Best FA OF’s / possibility of becoming a Phillie:
    1. Manny / Forget about it.
    2. Dunn / Heh, heh…can you imagine the strikeout records we could set?
    3. Burrell / 50-50 chance he comes back. I personally feel he will want more years than the Phillies will be willing to commit. He *really* should be a DH. Wouldn’t it be ironic if he becomes a TB Ray?
    4. Abreu / Ugh…LH hitter makes no sense.
    5. Casey Blake / Would be a worthwhile one year stopgap…can play numerous positions.
    6. Bradley / Can’t see the Phillies doing anything to mess with clubhouse ju-ju.
    7. Baldelli / Can’t go more than one year, but I’d take a team option just in case he turns out to be healthy. Fits the MO of the OF…skilled players with a history of underwhelming their original teams.

    That’s about all that’s worthwhile unless Amaro gets creative and can make a deal (no I’m not considering Holliday). Cleveland has some OF depth and can use some bullpen pieces…

46. Evrybuddy Hits woohoo Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 2:35 pm

    Victorino is a 5 tool guy. No way would he be considered. Marson is untouchable. If it takes Donald and either Carasco or Happ, I’d do it in a heartbeat. Holliday hitting between Utley and Howard or between Howard and Victorino would be scary to opposing pitchers. He is a perfect fit for this lineup.

47. From Section 113 Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 2:52 pm

    But my arguement is buying low on Ludwick, let’s say he regresses a tad he’s still only being paid marginal as compared to Burrell/Holliday/Magglio AND it wouldn’t have cost us a top prospect.

    Ludwick would also becomign to a smaller park here in CBP, and i think if coupled with a reliever or some type of pitching prospect would really not be a bad deal at all.

    Ludwick may well indeed be a 1 yr wonder, but if he slips to a .270 hitter I expect him to still hit 37 HRs and he’s capable of slugging at the same rate.
    So even a slip in production wouldn’t hurt us since we’d still get awesome power and would not have given up so much.

    I think giving up too much for Holliday wpuld be the wrong choice.

48. Mike S. Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 3:02 pm

    Jim
    I know we are losing Pat…
    but if these rumors are true, we could lose our Right fielder or center fielder…
    and If Holliday bolted in FA after ‘09…we’d have to fill left field AGAIN

    The only way I would take Holliday is if Werth and Vic stay..
    we hold onto Carassco and Donald…
    I could deal with losing Haap, Kendrick, Marson, Golson….

    AND….

    If Holliday stays and signs with the Phils after ‘09

    I gotta think if the Phils are even thinking about this is because they think Holliday will sign after ‘09 and they’ll be able to do it for a reasonable price….reasonable for a Boras client.

49. Matt Kwasiborski Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 3:19 pm

    Johnny Snowden,
    No way I want to turn in a World Series Champions into the 2nd place always choking debacle in Queens. My main point is that we are finally in a place where players want to play for us (or the theory goes if you win a championship) so why not kick the tires on CC and Holliday?

    Everyone here says Holliday is a one year rental- but why? What if he comes in here and has a spectacular year and decides he wants to stay? I think we should explore all options because now things are in our favor for once. And I believe in not giving up the farm but those none of those guys are guaranteed All-Stars either.

    And CC- why the hell not kick the tires. I wouldn’t outbid anyone for him but we could offer him the Philly Max like we did with Brand. IE: A chance to play for a championship contender every year.

50. Andrew Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    We better not make this deal. We won our championship with our homegrown guys. It makes no sense to give up two or three of our best prospects for only a year. J-roll, Utley, and Howard are productive during the season. What we need is a consistent hitter, even if he doesn’t have the power of a Holliday.

51. NJ Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 3:31 pm

    I really do think were barking up the wrong tree as a knee-jerk reaction to the possibility of loosing the protection behind Howard, I love Holliday but I don’t love the price considering the draft compensation will be far below what we’ll pay.

    Maybe Carrasco or Marson does move but I’d rather see it down the line when we’re looking at landing a cornerstone of the franchise.

52. Johnny Snowden Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 3:35 pm

    Mike K, Holliday wont sign with whoever he plays for in 09 period. Boras wont let him.

53. Mike S. Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 4:41 pm

    doesnt matter how well he likes Philly if they trade for him..
    he could hit 50 bombs and have 150 rbi’s in the bank..

    won’t matter.
    Boras will make him test the market, and even if they want to sign him, Boras will demand 130 million for the guy…
    the Phils payroll is going up already…
    no need to push Yankee limits for Matt Holliday

54. From Section 113 Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 4:56 pm

    Now people want CC AND Holliday….too much.

    People we are NOT the Yankees.

    My guess CC= 7-8 yrs $160-$170
    Holliday next yr= 6-7 yrs $140ish

    Yeah, the Phills have $300 Million lying somewhere around here. I think they left it by Schmidt’s statue outside the Bank. let me go check.

55. mikemike Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 5:41 pm

    We all know the phillies, this Holiday trade is a front. They will try to use Jenkins and Stairs against right handed pitching and either a Jason Michaels or mench or whoever is outthere under 5 million. and hope it works it not who cares they don’t they won and have 28 years . till they have to really do something to win.

56. mikemike Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 5:43 pm

    Sorry meant to say they don’t have to win for at least 28 years .they have time on there side.

57. Memphis Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 6:11 pm

    Sec 113, my point on Ludwick is that we would not be buying low, we’d be buying at his highest historical value. He’s a solid player that had a season that no one could have predicted, not even the Cardinals, and they are looking to unload him before he gets hurts or regresses or tests positive. I would not include any of our top prospects for him. If you mean “buy low” in that we could get him for a mid-level prospect, then sure, but I doubt the Cards do that. They think they can turn Ludwick (plus other stuff maybe) into Holliday which wasn’t possible a year ago. Imagine Dobbs exploding for 37/113/.299; we might think, no way he’ll duplicate that, let’s turn him into a 28-year-old all-star, not some prospects. Would you trade your SuperDobbs into another team’s Happ and Golson? Probably not, but you would think about flipping him for a Holliday, and that’s what StL is thinking.

58. Baseball Observer Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 10:55 pm

    Any trade for Holliday is a mistake. I have been watching Holliday from his first game here in Denver and I can tell you unequivocably that Pat Burrell is a better all around player than Holliday, hands down. Holliday is a very poor defensive outfielder that doesn’t get credit for nearly enough errors because he misjudges balls that become hits, often fails to hit relays, loses focus, and gets the benefit of the most home-biased official scorers in baseball. Think it is a coincidence that Colorado has led the league in fielding percentage that last two years, and won no gold gloves? Holliday’s errors alone should have blown that. He also has a mediocre, inaccurate arm, and a complete lack of baseball instincts. Remember one of the games won by the Phillies over Colorado when he stood and looked at ball hit in the corner while the winning run scored from first base? Believe me, he would be booed every day in Philly.
    There are also more bad things about Holliday, including a very important one that is seldom noted – even though his statistics are amazing, he is practically invisible in the clutch. Most of his RBI and extra base hits come when the team is either too far ahead or behind for them to matter. I think Ruiz had more big hits this year.
    Then there is the fact that he is with Boras and only has a year left on his current deal. Let the Yankees or Cardinals or whoever have him. Whoever gets him will be sorry.
    Burrell, on the other hand, has made himself into a disciplined hitter, and a competent outfielder who occasionally carries the team. There is also another big advantage with “The Bat”, he is part of the club house synergy that brought a World Championship. Holliday is a head case, who will ruin the teams great chemistry.

59. Baseball Observer Says:
    November 7th, 2008 at 10:59 pm

    Remember the Von Hayes trade? This Holliday deal reminds me of that. Scary.

60. Winning is everything Says:
    November 8th, 2008 at 1:52 am

    Adding Holliday would almost guarantee the Phillies return to the Post Season in 2009. I believe the Phillies will make this deal and not give up Werth or Victorino. Our lineup will put fear in every pitching staff across the league. We will not resign Pat the bat and we will bring back Moyer (possible within the next 7-14 days). The Phillies will also add another left handed relief pitcher. These will be our offseason moves via trade and free agency. The Phillies will then turn their focus onto the list of arbitration eligible players. Look for Cole Hamels to be signed to a long term deal (5-7 years) and for Ryan Howard to go year to year with Arbitration probably being awarded 16-18 million for 2009. Enjoy this run Phillies fans! We must do everything possible to ensure we have the best chance to defend our title. The above moves will make Philly the favorites to return to the annual fall classic. Remember- Winning is everything!

61. Are you kiiding me? Says:
    November 8th, 2008 at 10:25 am

    Seriously? Trade Donald? This guy was the headliner of the U.S. Olympic team coming home. If Colorado wants to make a move it should be at the price of the teams negotiating with them. Not saying Colorado should settle, but they have got to be reasonable. Werth, Vic, Donald, Marson, Carasco…none should be involved in a Holliday trade. Anybody remember what Philly got in the Schilling deal? How about the Abreu deal? How about the Royals and Beltran? That’s cause teams jerk you when you’re in the situtation the Rox are in now. Can anyone say an outfield of Holliday/Vic and a platton of Stairs, Dobbs, Bruntlett, Jenkins is that much better than what they have now without giving up all the prospect people are projecting? Get real.

62. Phil Says:
    November 8th, 2008 at 11:50 am

    I don’t know what you’re talking about baseball observer. I just went and looked up his stats in close and late games for the past 3 years and they’re unreal. I watched him carry his team to the playoffs last year and then to inevitably the World Series. With all of that said I still don’t want to give up the farm for a 1 year rent a guy. I also refuse to let this team let Werth or Victorino go in a trade for him. His numbers are definitely inflated because of Coors Field, and that’s what worries me the most. Coors Field is huge but the ball flys out of it, and if it doesn’t fly out it ends up being more doubles. In CBP outfielders would get to the ball more often and that would hurt him.

63. Chris L Says:
    November 8th, 2008 at 12:24 pm

    If this happens then three should be true:

    1) Werth and Vic stay. Otherwise, like others have said we’re creating another hole in the OF. Dobbs (preferably not) or Jenkins though might make sense.

    2) The team is going to have to give up one of the guys that fans don’t want to part with. Either Donald or Rollins makes the most sense. Marson is the guy least likely to be given up with Carrasco right behind him. Unless they are packaging 2 lower level guys (Happ and Kendrick?) but I don’t see the Rockies going for that.

    3) To make it truly economically viable, Amaro needs to get them to take Eaton (without the Phillies paying more than $1/2 million) and/or Jenkins — with both of them having only one more year, the Rockies would consider it as long as they get the oung player they want (probably Donald)

    To me, Jenkins, Donald and Eaton and 1 millions for Holliday and a AA player would make sense for both teams.

64. invest guru Says:
    March 2nd, 2009 at 9:11 pm

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