Phillies Nation

43 Responses to “Moyer Not Fooling Anybody In 2009”

1. Geoff Says:
   May 14th, 2009 at 10:16 am

   Well said, I think we can all agree that wed like to see him get his 250th win, but after that he should really just reitre because hes one of the worst starting pitchers in all of baseball this season.

2. William Says:
   May 14th, 2009 at 10:17 am

   Nice piece of writing…hit the nail on the head. Its is very tough in anything to rely on so much and he has done that for so long its finally catching up to him.

   and your right…players are smarter, coaches are smart, the technology is better…you can now go down the club house and review your last at bat on a monitor or computer…

   Pitching is getting tougher and tougher…

3. Kevin Says:
   May 14th, 2009 at 10:30 am

   Ahh, the return of the Steve Jeltz award. I am hoping Moyer turns things around and give the team a couple solid outings. I expect Moyer to go six innings, allow three or four runs, and keep the team in it. It hasn’t quite been like that this year as the offense is usually given a deep hole to crawl out of when Moyer hits the mound.

4. Justin Says:
   May 14th, 2009 at 10:54 am

   Today’s Lineup for the Phightins’:

   Jimmy Rollins, SS
   Shane Victorino, CF
   Chase Utley, 2B
   Ryan Howard, 1B
   Jayson Werth, RF
   Raul Ibanez, LF
   Pedro Feliz, 3B
   Chris Coste, C
   Cole Hamels, P

5. Manny Says:
   May 14th, 2009 at 11:08 am

   He did fool Ruben Amaro Jr though!
   (Sorry, couldn’t help it)

6. Georgie Says:
   May 14th, 2009 at 11:13 am

   haha, funny one Manny!

   It’s been raining all morning here in northern Lanc Co, I’m going to check the radar to see if it’s heading towards Philly.

7. Don M Says:
   May 14th, 2009 at 11:16 am

   a lot of his contract had to do with rewarding him for a GREAT season last year (for which he was underpaid)..

   The money isn’t the issue with Moyer its the fact that its a 2 year deal.. and right now its not looking like he’ll still be in the rotation at the All-Star break..

   My point all along to the people bashing Moyer for his age, or his slow pitches.. was that we didn’t think there was any chance in hell that he’d be better at age 45 then he was at age X .. so why just because he’s “46″ would he forget how to pitch.. he’s on the brink of 250 career wins.. he’s been on good teams and bad teams.. without him we don’t make the playoffs last year .. without that, we don’t win the World Series..

   So his contract was as much a reward for what he’s done as it was a “smart move” did anyone honestly think that all of a sudden he’d struggle THIS MUCH? I doubt it..

   The thing is, he’s had strong innings, and terrible innings.. lets find out what’s causing the problems.. maybe skip a start or two.. and then see where we go from there. ..but the people just bashing him and calling for him to retire need to calm the hell down!

8. Don M Says:
   May 14th, 2009 at 11:18 am

   it was raining in the NE on the way into Center City this morning… the ground looks like its starting to clear up a little..

   I’m under cover for today’s game.. section 122 fa sho!

9. Geoff Says:
   May 14th, 2009 at 11:20 am

   But thats whats wrong with it..two years. now theyve gotta eat ALL that money…if he was a rookie hed be in the minors already. this is all about how much theyre on the hook for with him and trying to get him one more win.

   i honestly think the classy thing to do is to get that one more win that we all want to see him get (even me) and then go ahead and step aside. Otherwise its just asinine.

10. ryan Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 11:21 am

    i think Jamie just simply isn’t hitting his spots. I still think he will come back and eventually pitch as well as he did last season. He just needs to find himself.

    Hey, It’s not like he lost a few MPH on his fastball or anything. Whatever he had last year, he still has. He just needs to find it

11. Geoff Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 11:22 am

    it better be clear..they need a win against billingsley whos been nasty this season…also im looking forward to putting it on the radio here at work this afternoon.

12. William Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    Don,

    Your right in the fact that everyone counted him out time and time again…

    But Geoff is right that the “reward” shouldn’t have been two years… and he is right that any other player would be in the minors pretty soon…Myers was.

    His age has to be factored in everything he does because age factors in everyone else evaluation…Oh Carrasco is only 23 he will get better…oh Floyd is 24 he has to get better…

    Age matters in the evaluations of salary and play.

    Got to work…more later.

13. Don M Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    Fair enough..

    I just see what Moyer did last year.. and how he can still pitch.. against the Marlins who are a very good offensive team..

    I think the point that “aggressive” teams have more trouble with him than patient teams..

    Like if Moyer pitched against our lineup, he’d do pretty well.. like he did the Marlins..

    The Mets, Dodgers, etc.. can give him some trouble becuase they have guys that aren’t quite as free-swinging..

    Im ready for him to skip a start to work on things.. im not ready for him to call it a career

14. Tim Malcolm Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 11:44 am

    I’m sorry, but I don’t believe in “rewards” for everyone after a championship. In sports, you have to consider so much more.

    That’s why it was smart that Burrell wasn’t re-signed. I think Moyer had to do more with the fact that he was cheap enough post-Ibanez, and performance wise, the Phils thought they could get a certain amount from him.

15. mikemike Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 11:50 am

    The two years Moyer wanted would have bother me , One year with a club option is fair, to say he was reward for being underpaid it ridicious. When they fail do they give it back Remember danny one bat 5 million never play for us again tarabull. But the phillies were riding high and were caught in the middle, if they didn’t resign him the fans would have went nuts, but moyer took advantage holding them up for two years at his age. but that’s baseball. and to my amazement this team has shown they will eat contracts. so at this stage we keep him pitching as a mop up guy in blowups and eat next year. or make him if he wants a minor league pitching coach. If people think the hitters haven’t caught up with him they are only fooling themselfs. If people think he should still start .I can’t see the logic in that, if he goes to the bullpen and spot starts and shows something maybe get another chance.

16. TwoTonsOfIrony Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    I kind of posted this elsewhere, but doesn’t this well-written post by Tim point out that Moyer may be a very good bullpen piece? I understand that it is hard to ask a man making upwards of $7 mil to go to the bullpen and especially someone of Jamie’s ’stature’. But at this point he is able to completely befuddle you the first time you see him. Could you imagine him coming in after Happ throwing 92-93 and then have Moyer for an inning of 75-83 pitches, it would seem that he would crush in the swing-man role against teams who had just timed themselves up and figured out a guy who throws 90 then they have to adjust to a 8-10 MPH shift on each pitch. I think it would be a great way to elongate his career and first and foremost the best way for him to help this team?

17. Manny Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 11:55 am

    Exactly, Tim. I don’t believe in that whole idea of “rewarding” someone for something they did in the past… You give a contract to someone to pitch in the present and the future. Just like you can’t “deduct” money from someone who sucked. Just gotta take it as it is when it comes to contract. When a contract expires, refresh, reload, and see what that person can bring to your team TOMORROW.

    We expected (still expect?) Moyer to perform better and pitch well in 2009 and 2010. Unfortunately, it looks like it won’t work for us. I agree with Don in that he should skip a start or two and try again… and I’m still not 100% ready for him to retire… but I’m getting there. Besides the fact that “he can bounce back,” I don’t see a single positive sign showing that Moyer will improve considerably to stay in this rotation by July.

18. Don M Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    yea a lot more went into Moyer’s contract than it being a “reward” .. i meant that more in the fact that … here’s a solid pitcher, helped us win an NL East crown twice.. a World Series.. a local guy.. fans love him, teammates love him, coaches love him, media loves him.. we still want him on the team..

    Lets not blow this up over 1 year with an option vs. two years under contract..

    Im not saying that they are throwing around money as a reward.. but weigh all the things and realize why they do what they do.. it makes sense.. and contracts, as we know, don’t always work out.. this may or may not be the case here.. but 6 or 7 starts into the season is a little early to write-off a guy that’s shown year-in and year-out that he can produce for you!

    I’m down for everyone else to give their opinion on the subject.. I just really hate when people rip players.. its obvious that Moyer isn’t just coasting through and collecting paychecks.. he wants to win, but he’s struggling right now

19. William Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    Tim, I agree with you. Pat Burrell was a smart move. Moyer was a hometown boy with a left arm with a price lower than Raul.

    Did anyone else watch opening day and wonder what the Moyer $ would have look like in a deal for Derek Lowe?

    mikemike I said that same thing about making him a coach or something.

    Don – I agree that more aggressive teams do worse against Moyer but the two teams you named that he would do bad against…the Phillies will probably face in the playoffs…thats my point.

    I don’t want to force anyone into retirement that doesn’t want to be…I just think the Phillies need to re-think how they use him like you said.

20. Manny Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 11:59 am

    Sounds like a good idea to me, TwoTonsofIrony… especially for the 2nd half of this season (if he continues to struggle) and for 2010.

21. William Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    I like the thought twotonsofirony…

    I’m not on the Happ bandwagon because I think he is the second coming…

    I just think he gives us a better chance to win and he is going to do that with gaining the experience now for years to come.

22. mikemike Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    The bottom line is the phillies were caught in a catch22 with moyer, if this was the eagles he would have been gone if he didn’t take the one year with a option. 7 million dollars is a lot of money to throw away by guanteed a second year verus a small buyout if he doern’t perform, With that kind of money you could put more into the draft in spending. being that we don’t have a first pick and need to overpay slot to try to get a unsignable player to change his mind and forgo college and play now. Take seven million and put it toward hamels or howard contracts. to say it doesn’t matter one year with a option verus two I don’t see it. unless you are the red sox or yankees or mets with a ton of money.

23. Chuck P Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    With the exception of the Mets and St. Louis… that’s 4 out of the 10 games listed. There were some good points; he relies on the umps giving him calls and his defense but last year we had arguably the best defense in the NL so that was ok. Rollins, Vic, Werth, Utley, Feliz and Ruiz were all among the best defensively at their positions. This year, Victorino is the only one who has been playing as well as he did in 2008, defensively. Howard has been AWESOME (where are those Howard nay sayers… 0 errors in 285 chances is pretty remarkable) and Ibanez has done great but the rest of the team has looked merely ok. Not blaming Moyer’s floundering on that but I think that we all need to relax because the guy was 3-1 in April… that was 2 weeks ago. The trend hasn’t been good but I would bet that somewhere between 1986 and 2008, Jamie Moyer has went through a stretch like this and turned it around.

24. Griffin Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    Not to pile on Moyer here, but his K/BB ratio is the worst it’s been since 1991. His strikeouts are down and his walks are up. He is giving up fly balls 44.4% of the time, which is 4% greater than his career average and 6% more than his previous 3 year average.

    He has a very thin margin of error and once these numbers dip a bit, he gets shelled.

25. Chuck P Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    At his age, 2 years was not optimal. HOWEVER, the deal wasn’t bad at the time… he was coming off of a 16 win season and the deal appeared to be incentive laden. He made $6 million in 2008… if you perform, you get paid more, right? I don’t think you owe anyone ANYTHING after a championship but someone was going to pay him his asking price. Amaro/Gillick misread the market because, at that time, Burnett and Sabathia were the only free agent pitchers signed to contracts… that was what was out there to judge the FA market. Those two guys are making mega millions and they only won a couple more games than Moyer.

    I’m a homer… I’ll admit that… I’m from Souderton so I’m not a great judge of this but it’s May and he’s 3-3 and everyone is ready to run the guy out of town. Let’s try to be rational… he’s not going anywhere and he can turn it around.

26. Frank Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    Surplus starting pitching never lasts.

    So don’t be profligate in throwing away a credible story in Moyer- particularly a story you are on the hook for eight digits.

    I would hold open that option on Happ as long as I could. I can almost guarantee the Phillies will face a bigger rotation crisis between now and Labor Day than a pair of very shaky starts from a guy coming off sixteen wins.

    Fact: Moyer has kept them in enough games for the club to be over .500 in his starts. So let’s let him stay there until he is a real problem- rather than an inconvenient one.

27. Tim Malcolm Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    I wrote before that it would’ve been a perfect end to his career to be on that float on Broad Street. I know he loves pitching, but I have no idea why he wanted to continue.

    His family lives in Florida. He has the charity. His kids are moving to their formative years. He’ll never make the Hall, but he would’ve been remembered on the best terms possible. If he really wanted to, he could’ve stayed on as a coach (probably starting as a pitching coach in Clearwater).

    Instead he’s tarnishing his legacy. I love the guy, and I think he’s a great man and overall, one of the great pitchers of our time. But it makes no sense to me why he wanted to continue.

28. William Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    Great point Tim…

    I couldn’t have said it better myself…

29. Bruce Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    Tim, I’m not sure why you chose those 2008 dates of Moyer’s starts. Perhaps selective memory on your part? I counted 21 starts of 33 that he pitched six innings or more. EIGHTEEN were quality starts (at least 6 innings of 3 runs or less).

    You say…”..hitters are wiser to the game – they know if they’re patient with Moyer, let him work and lose his control, they’ll have a field day. And more teams are hipper to this knowledge..” Moyer been around for 23 years (and 249 wins), and now you think they are “hipper” about him? (chuckles) Like any MLB pitcher, there are certain teams over the years that will be troublesome for him. The Dodgers are such a team loaded with talent for contact type hitting (the “Dodger Way” as they say). They don’t easily get themselves out. I’ve already posted in another thread that Manual confirmed in a postgame conference that Moyer will continue to have his starts and allow him to work out his problems. And as Moyer stated after the game, he made mistakes and mistakes are correctible. It has nothing to do with his age. Consistent command and location are the key issues that needs to be resolved in his case; getting ahead in counts, allowing him to expand the strike zone and never showing the same pattern of pitches during the game.

    By the way, Happ is a temporary fill in as starter for the doubleheader. He will go back to bullpen regardless of performance (unless he pitches a no-hitter..chuckles). Of course, Happ’s status can change if problems persist with the starters this month.

30. Griffin Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    Tim, I felt the same way this off-season. Now we’ll remember Moyer for the ‘08 Championship as well as the two sub-par years afterwards.

    I can’t blame him for grabbing the extra $16 million, but who exactly were the Phillies bidding against for Moyer’s services?

31. Geoff Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    Well said Tim, completely agreed.

    You dont give someone a 2 year contract to “reward them” if you don tthink theyre going to be effective for that contract duration – yes, which is why Burrell isnt here..

32. PtheBLovesTheBallGirls Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    Tim great point I mean 23 years and 249 wins later and finally someone figured out Moyer.

    That’s the beauty of Moyer he knows what he is going to do and the opponent knows what he is going to do and it still works. Granted he has been in a slump the last few starts but he will work out of it. As someone said earlier he had a slump like this in the middle of last year and he worked out of it and carried this team to the postseason with a strong September.

    But somewhere between September and April everyone found out his secret I guess.

    Moyer will break outta this slump and provide the same thing he did last year 6 innings 3-4 ERs and its the pens job to get them to the 9th and the offenses job to get more than 3-4 ERs.

33. Phil Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    Put him in the pen to face some lefties and young aggressive hitters and to be a mop up man. Have him spot start against young and aggressive teams like the Marlins. He owns them and they are a division rival.

34. mikemike Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    If anyone is trying to argue using last year numbers. see lee’s number last to this it’s a poor example to state last year for 46 year old pitcher, if this was a santana, hamel. haladay you wait to see them come out because they are that good, but this is jamie moyer yes he has 249 wins, how long has he been pitching to get those wins. If you don’t want to win again then you do nothing, and fall behind not only the mets but the braves, we won by three don’t tell me the mets aren’t three games better. how many are we. raul has been unbelievable but he can’t pitch, This team needs a shot in the arm . I don’t know if happ is the answer, but we know that moyer Isn’t . It’s great to be a homer I guess, but in this case this team needs help. Hopefully its happ. if not then it has to be a trade for some one to put in that rotation to help stablize it. The one thing among many that made me like harry k. was he gave praise to other teams, he wasn’t a homer announcer. like skip for atlanta and others. you know you can still like a team and admit they make mistakes, My god some people just think whatever the phillies do its always right. Amaro misjudge the market for jamie he got. more than he should .Amaro let the emotion of winning the series affect his decision.

35. PtheBLovesTheBallGirls Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    I can and do praise other teams, I am not saying there is no problem with our team. The offense is inconsistent and streaky, the bullpen gets misused and needs to improve, the rotation needs to find their groove.

    Moyer isn’t the only problem and he isn’t going anywhere any time soon. Myers didn’t go down to the minors until the All Star break, the same will go for Moyer if he is still ineffective at that point he will be in the minors.

    Stop being a frontrunner, when Moyer does great everyone is his biggest fan and when he struggles everyone wants him to retire. I can’t wait until he breaks out of his slump and makes you all eat your words.

36. mikemike Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    wow you don’t know me , never was a frontrunner. But you are entitled to you opinion, just if they continue until allstart break, the only parade will be the mummers on new years day.

37. Geoff Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    I concur…none of us are frontrunners. 99% of us have been fans our entire lives so dont dare make such accusations.

    amaro shouldnt have brought jamie back, period.

38. PtheBLovesTheBallGirls Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    And according to you Geoff Ruiz and Coste should be gone, along with Rollins Moyer, Park and Blanton.

    We need Marson and Donald starting with Happ and Carrasco in the rotation.

    I am really glad Amaro is the GM and not you. I know we all are entitled to our opinons but I really think you should keep yours to yourself,

39. mikemike Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    Geoff.. me and you can’t post anymore the brain surgeon said we are not entitled to say anything out loud, I wonder if he is a egg head who never play sports or a guy who played who thinks he knows everything, seems the latter to me, Oh I am sorry not suppose to say anything. yeah . you post your stupid remarks and everyone has to keep quiet, I didn’t get personal until you did. have a nice day

40. NJ Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    Can you really be down on the Phils right now? Sure Jimmy’s stinking the place up and only handful of games stop us calling the starting pitching awesome but over .500 after a Championship hangover… I’ll take that any day.

    Old man Moyers getting blasted this year for sure but was thinking yesterday about his hall of fame credentials, this guys a victim of his own success. Going for win 250 his numbers are pretty amazing and I can’t believe each start isn’t looked at with the same anticipation a Pedro start was or even when Pettite’s up.

    Give Jamie his props, this guys not done.

41. PtheBLovesTheBallGirls Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    mikemike, I never said you shouldn’t post here, I have no problem with your opinions or debating you.

    The previous comment was directed at Geoff but if that is the way you feel be my guest. I really don’t care what you think about me personally

42. mikemike Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    I don’t want to get personal this is just people’s opinion, sorry if I misread your remarks

43. dan lamb Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 10:12 pm

    Seriously, It’s approaching the end of May and we are going to leave Moyer in the rotation with his ERA. Amaro sucks so bad. Get Moyer, Coste and Cairo off the team.

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