Phillies Nation

121 Responses to “Gameday: Phillies (48-38) At Marlins (46-44)”

1. The Little Guy Says:
   July 16th, 2009 at 6:42 pm

   Now im 20 years old and dominate beer pong, but what the hell is cornhole?

   Heres to hoping Moyer has a decent start and gives the Phils a chance.

2. Morris Buttermaker Says:
   July 16th, 2009 at 7:00 pm

   Ok guys, we got a game with the Marlins tonight. And that only means one thing. Bad news for the Marlins!

3. Morris Buttermaker Says:
   July 16th, 2009 at 7:02 pm

   I have no idea what cornhole is either. And I sure as sugar don’t want to find out.

   Bud light is what I drink when I don’t feel like having a beer.

4. Wilson Says:
   July 16th, 2009 at 7:10 pm

   Guys, I believe Cornhole is a another name for Bean Bags/Baggo/Bag Toss, etc….

   But I could be wrong?!?

5. PhanIN Says:
   July 16th, 2009 at 7:11 pm

   Hey, for you Phans out of the Phillies t.v. viewing area, DIRECTV has a free preview from tonight thru July 22nd on their extra innings package. Tonight, only the Marlins feed is available, but its better than nothing.

6. Griffin Says:
   July 16th, 2009 at 7:11 pm

   I would sign up for 2-2 in this four game set. Let’s go Moyer!

7. Griffin Says:
   July 16th, 2009 at 7:12 pm

   shite at-bat by Rollins there

8. Brian Michael Says:
   July 16th, 2009 at 7:18 pm

   Cornhole – http://images.google.com/images?q=cornhole&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

9. j reed Says:
   July 16th, 2009 at 7:20 pm

   never mind cornhole…i don’t even know what beer pong is

10. Andrew Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:22 pm

    When Moyer wins tonight he will have 9 wins?
    Thats truly amazing and even though I watch every game Id have not guessed it.

11. Havoc Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:26 pm

    Looks like the strike zone is going to be forgiving and consistent. That should mean good things for Jamie.

12. mikeB Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:26 pm

    Well right off the bat the umpire blew the call on Victorino’s attempt to steal second base. Replay shows that he was safe.

13. Keith Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:30 pm

    RAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUL

14. Tracey Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:30 pm

    RAUUUUUUUL~~~~

15. j reed Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:30 pm

    good god

16. NJ Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:30 pm

    If you look at Moyer’s gamelog he has been the beneficiary of run support in a couple of games but he’s lost several with barely any run support so his win total isn’t padded out. He takes a lot of stick here for statistically being ‘the worst pitcher in the league’ but he isn’t, he’s nowhere near the best but he can still win you some games which is all that matters.

    RAAAAAAAUUUUUUUULLLLLL

17. The Little Guy Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:30 pm

    Ibanez leveled that pitch, jesus

18. Tracey Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:31 pm

    Ah… it’s good to have Raul back in the lineup…

19. The Little Guy Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:33 pm

    That called third strike on Werth helps Moyer out a lot.

20. Havoc Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:35 pm

    Ah Raul… man have I missed you.

21. j reed Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:35 pm

    what the hell is beer pong?

22. Manny Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    Rauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuul is the man

23. Tracey Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:38 pm

    Beer pong is quarters with ping pong balls.

24. Jeff Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:38 pm

    Raul is just amazing this year. What a great hitter. He will also help Ryan. Notice Ryan hit the big homer the other night with Raul behind him. Mets are losing as well 2-0. Lets put them away and put Florida 7 games behind us.

25. Tracey Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:39 pm

    Oh, BEAUTIFUL catch!

26. Geoff Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:40 pm

    Im so sick of watching Moyer. He hasnt even done anything bad yet and Im already sick of him.

27. Dave Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:41 pm

    Because I’d like to see Moyer make a fool out of me (and it is the Fish), I’m going to say he’ll go 7 innings and give up 1 run.

    Good to see Raul is back to old habits. It’s scary to think that with all of the problems this team has had, it still has a better record than at this time last year.

28. NJ Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:41 pm

    Remember the Phils have 4 games in hand over the Fish so if we take a series win then that’s a pretty commanding lead in the division.

29. The Little Guy Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:42 pm

    That catch by Werth was routine, does that in his sleep.

30. Tracey Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:46 pm

    oof… maybe they should stop stealing…

31. NJ Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:50 pm

    Geoff man calm down with the Moyer hate, we all agree he’s not going to win a Cy Young, probably isn’t going to finish up the year with great numbers but we could do a lot worse than Old Man Moyer.

32. Geoff Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:51 pm

    hes like an old japanese videogame boss from nintendo that CHEATS all the time

33. NJ Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:53 pm

    …? He gets the same strike zone the other pitcher gets

34. j reed Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:54 pm

    wasn’t Paulino ours, i mean we must have scouted the guy and we didn’t notice his arm? maybe he is having an uncharacteristically good night.

35. Geoff Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:56 pm

    No he doesnt…how can you say he gets the same strike zone? do you watch the games?

36. The Little Guy Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:57 pm

    We could of had Paulino back up for Ruiz instead of Bako, but we need Taschner haha.

37. Dave Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:58 pm

    Geoff, would you rather that the ump was squeezing Moyer and that he’d already given up 3 runs? Just be glad that we’re winning.

38. NJ Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:58 pm

    The first steal the ump missed badly, he called Vic out with Hanley tagging Vic in the arm-pit with his hand already on the bag. Even not great throwing catchers have something like a 25% throw-out rate.

39. Keith Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:59 pm

    RAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUL again

40. Tracey Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 7:59 pm

    RAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!! Oh, how we’ve missed you!!!

41. Geoff Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:01 pm

    I would rather we didnt have Moyer and didnt have to worry about it…not talking about last year, talking about this year.

    RAUL! Is The Man

42. Jeff Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:01 pm

    HOLLLYY SH T RAULLLLLLLL IS ON FIRE

43. j reed Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:01 pm

    oh why with 1 out did they pitch to Raul. Dumb Fish

44. Dave Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:03 pm

    Guess Raul is having one of those days. So glad he’s back.

45. Griffin Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:04 pm

    j reed, beer pong is the Raul Ibanez of drinking games

46. j reed Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:05 pm

    that’s “with one out and no one on…”

47. Jeff Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:09 pm

    Its amazing that the Marlins swing at everything Moyer throws. 9 balls so far.

48. Tracey Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:12 pm

    Moyer has 44 pitches in 4 innings. At this rate, he could play a CG! :O

49. Jeff of NoVa. Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:12 pm

    at this pace Raul will hit 200 home runs in the second half LOL

50. NJ Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:16 pm

    This year Moyer’s numbers are deceiving. Over two thirds of his starts have been either pretty OK or good, that ERA’s high because he doesn’t go deep but he’s winning games and he’s on course for 15 wins and somewhere between 180-190 innings. Not as bad as you’d think for a middle of the rotation guy.

51. Pat Gallen Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:25 pm

    Moyer owns these guys. It’s sick.

52. joshua Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:30 pm

    200 for ryan

53. The Dipsy Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:35 pm

    Who wants to talk about Vernon Wells?

    The Dipsy

54. Dave Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:42 pm

    It’d be interesting to compare the games Moyer and Werth have when Moyer is starting. Werth takes a lot of pitches, so it’s my bet that when Moyer has a good day, usually Werth will have a bad one and vice versa.

55. Tracey Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:48 pm

    Hee hee! Jamie gets a hit!

56. Geoff Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:50 pm

    its sickening that a team can be this bad against a guy whos done against most other teams

57. NJ Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:55 pm

    Geoff if Moyer keeps pace and does win 15 games is there a hat you have ready to eat?

58. Tracey Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:56 pm

    NICE catch!

59. Geoff Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 8:58 pm

    this is the worst offensive performance ive ever seen against a mediocre pitcher like this. this is so disgraceful

60. NJ Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:01 pm

    Geoff you can put your Moyer voo doo doll away now…

61. Geoff Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:02 pm

    no no hat…just proof of point…IF his ERA is below 4 at seasons end I will admit that I am wrong.

    last year wins..so what 16 wins on this team. kendrick won 11 games last year and he blows….BUT Jamies ERA last year was 3.47 or something like that…THATS what was impressive

62. The Big Dipper Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:04 pm

    I am pretty sure that the person posting as Geoff is in fact not the real Geoff. While he would say things like that it does not seem to be the same kind of writing. Along with that fact that Moyer has also had great games vs the Mets and Dodgers and Geoff usually doesn’t post when someone he hates so much is proving once again he is worth his spot in the rotation.

    The Big Dipper

63. Geoff Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:07 pm

    Jamie MOyer sucks

64. Dave Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:08 pm

    Oh, good job, put two men on base for the guy who already hit two homers today. Law of averages says he probably won’t hit another, after all.

65. j reed Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:09 pm

    Dipsy-what’s up with Vernon Wells…I know the Jays would like to free up some payroll and have heard that he’s on the block…

66. Ed R. Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:11 pm

    When will people get it, wins don’t mean anything. Proof of my point. Last year Matt Cain had an era of 3.76, the year before that 3.65. His record in those two years? 8-14 and 7-16. 15-30 combined. Even with those numbers you can not be a fan of baseball and say with any sense of seriousness that Matt Cain is not a good pitcher. Because it simply isn’t true. A pitcher’s job is not to win games. A team win’s games, not one guy. A pitcher’s job is to give his team a chance to win by pitching well. That has what Cain has always done and what Moyer, his starts against Florida aside, has not done is give his chance a win. His record is a product of the Phillies bats, nothing more.

67. NJ Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:23 pm

    Wins mean something. 90 wins means you should see October, 70 wins means your managers on the hot seat. Wins can be an overrated stat when judging how good or bad a pitchers been compared to the pack but it’s not meaningless, there are other stats that either validate the wins or show how the pitcher hasn’t deserved that many wins.

    If Moyer wins 15 games no-ones saying he should be in the running for the Cy Young, it just backs up the belief a lot of us have that Moyer hasn’t been the terrible, no redeeming quality pen killer some believe he is. He’s been a stable back of the rotation guy and I’ll take his 8 (soon to be 9 wins) over Jonathan Sanchez’s 3 with his no hitter this year.

    If wins had no validity what are you playing for?

68. Keith Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:23 pm

    congrats Ryan Howard on HR # 200!

69. j reed Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:29 pm

    Ed R. – Well said. In the most statisically accurate sport its amazing this stat hasn’t been phased out…it puts undue pressure on SP when you consider the effect of a players stats on contract negotations. I think when complete games were the norm, W-L had more relevance but even then, how is a pitcher responsible for an anemic offense? I’d also throw ERA, at least how its calculated, into the dust bin.

70. mikeB Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:29 pm

    Why is not Florida’s Dan Uggla playing tonight?

71. Manny Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:30 pm

    Wow. Our team is winning and all I hear is some d-bags chanting E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES! Morons

72. The Big Dipper Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:37 pm

    Did they just claim that the Win and Loss should be phased out of baseball?

    How will we know which team is better than another or who should be in the playoffs? Should it be team ERA and BA?

    Wins are what they play the games for. When it comes to looking at a pitchers stats wins are less important that other stats like ERA, QS, WHIP, IP but it is still something to look at. Cain has had a hell of a time winning games up until this year, you can call it a bad team but they put Ws up for Lincecum.

    They made the QS stat as a way to identify if a pitcher puts his team in a position to win. They believed if a pitcher could pitch 6 innings and only give up 3 runs he has given his team a chance to win. Moyer will give his team a chance to win better than most other 4th or 5th starters in the league. He is not our ace and should not be considered in the top 3 in the rotation he is here to give the team a chance to win and it seems since since he leads the team in wins he has been doing his job.

    The Big Dipper

73. Brian of CO Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:38 pm

    Keith, dont forget that Howard is now the FASTEST player to hit 200 HR’s in history (according to MLB.com)

74. Manny Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:39 pm

    ONE HIT SHUTOUT!

75. NJ Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:40 pm

    We’re a generation of stat heads! We disregard a guy like Moyer’s ability to affect the outcome of a game because he doesn’t give pretty stats, we mock him for hurting the pen when he’s been consistent all year and it’s other members of the staff that have been responsible.

    Matt Cain or Jamie Moyer, Cain every time and the time after that. Moyer against guys like Looper or Oliver Perez or Todd Wellemeyer, well I’ll take Moyer’s ability to ’somehow’ come up with those wins. Rich Harden has an ERA over 5 for pete sake! Matt Cain’s having a great year and he hasn’t completed 7 innings in half his stars.

    Your not asking for a sub 3ERA, 200K, 220 inning, 1.10WHIP out of your rotation fillers… Just someone who can keep you in a game and get you some wins. Worry about the stats of Hamels, Blanton, Happ… Moyer’s going to be Moyer and that’s fine for his role.

76. The Big Dipper Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:40 pm

    I hear ya Manny I was disgusted when I saw that. I was at the 22-1 game versus the Reds up in the top deck in RF. In the late innings some jerks starting doing Eagles chants and the real Phillies fans in the section started giving them shit. The Phillies are the team who brought a championship back to this city and are first in their division.

    The Big Dipper

77. Dave Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:40 pm

    RAUUUUUUUUUUUULL!!!!

    check out – http://www.superlogoz.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Raul%5FTee

    get your official Rauuuuuul T-Shirt

78. Jeff of NoVa. Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:40 pm

    Yeah Wins mean something! I think what should be said is that wins are deceiving. Moyer has been on the last several starts he was a in a funk before that. He won games where we scored boat loads and lost games where we scored little.

    In Matt Cains situation he had no run support if he was on the Phillies he would have won 20 each year.

79. Brian of CO Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:41 pm

    wow I guess the Moyer haters out there were correct. How dare him only pitching 7 innings 4 SO’s 1 walk and a run. wow he does suck. LOL. He still has some left in the tank guys, he is very inconsisntent though, just like the rest of the staff.

80. Ed R. Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:42 pm

    NJ you exemplified my point for me. I said that a team wins games. You are right that there is a huge difference between 90 wins and 70 wins, but a pitcher doesn’t win 90 or 70 games, a team does. It is very possible and it may happen this year that Moyer may in fact win 15 games in spite of his own efforts. If Moyer finishes the year with an era around 4.50 then I will be happy with that because as a 4th or 5th starter that is about what you can expect from any 4th or 5th starter.

    To answer your question, wins have validity from a team stand point but from a pitcher’s stand point they mean nothing. How many games have pitchers gotta a no decision on because their bull pen failed them? How many games has a guy like Zach Duke lost because his team could not hit? I hate to even use this example because I despise the guy but look at Roger Clemens record in 2005. He was 13-8…which, 13 wins from your ace is not very good. But if you look further, his era that year was a RIDICULOUS 1.87…in 32 starts. Think about that for a second. You might never see an era like that at the end of a full season ever again. It just doesn’t happen. His team’s bullpen failed him time and time again, his teams offense was even worse and because of those two factors his record was not near what it should be.

    It amazes me how much people use statistics in a sport that absolutely should not utalize them as a measure of a players worth. In football it makes sense, in basketball it makes sense, even hockey. The fields/rinks/courts are all the same dimensions. In baseball it is different from sport to sport. You look at a guy like Ibanez. Before coming to Philly he was nothing more than a solid contributor, a guy who was dependable at the plate for a 280 average, 100 rbi or so and solid play in the field. Imagine what he would have done if he played at CBP his whole career? His numbers would possibly be out of this world. The ball park can make or break a player just as easily as their own performance. Can’t say that in football, Heinze Field is no different than the Linc. The Wachovia Center is no different than Staples Center. Everything is equal in respect to the two sports that are played there.

81. Brian of CO Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:44 pm

    sorry I meant 1 HIT, NO runs.

82. Paul Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:45 pm

    Well done Moyer! Man, the Phils should keep him around just to pitch against the Marlins…

83. Brian of CO Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:47 pm

    I hate having to route for the braves though. LOL

84. Ed R. Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:48 pm

    I’ll route for the Braves over the Mets any night of the week. I want the Mets buried before they can get healthy.

85. Keith Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:49 pm

    great game Moyer

86. Brian of CO Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:53 pm

    5-3 Atlanta. lets hope for 7.5 games back tonight.

87. Brian of CO Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:55 pm

    nice to see howard set a record, and of course RRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAUUUUULLLLLLLLL! 2 homers is nice.

88. j reed Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 9:59 pm

    NJ- a statistic that doesn’t correspond to it’s data isn’t really that good. If you have to explain its relevance then it lacks clarity and elegance.

89. Grrrumpy Miner Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 10:00 pm

    Where are the cynics who was crying thay Moyer is “Washed Up”.Things are starting to look bleak in Amazinville USA.Mets claim the Bernie Madoff scandal isn’t effecting them…I say BULLSH8!No trades,no spending,no nothing.Even if/when the injured players come back…I hope they can play with heart and if they are out of it,play the Spoiler card and knock somebody out of the playoffs.

90. Matt Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 10:01 pm

    I’m so tired of listening to the Moyer haters. It’s like Geoff just hopes and prays for Moyer to get rocked so he can be right and he can say told ya so. He had a fantastic start tonight and you just complain.

    I can forgive Moyer for some of his rough outings, because you can’t argue that Hamels wouldn’t be the pitcher he is without Moyer there, and the same goes for all of the pitchers. Happ, Blanton, etc. Sure, Moyer doesn’t put up the flashy numbers, but he gets wins and straight dominates the Fish every time we play them. He gets rocked and has some short outings from time to time, but a lot of games, he still gives the Phils a chance to win and that’s all you can ask for.

    Ed R.-I don’t think that CBP has much at all to do with Ibanez. Just take a look at the split stats. Ibanez has had 32 games at home and 32 games on the road this year. Away, his numbers are .314 avg 13 hr 35 rbi 1.011 OPS, while at home he is at .303 avg 8 hr 25 rbi 1.019 OPS. I think it has more to do with him having more protection in the Phillies lineup. Being sandwiched in between Ryan Howard and Jayson Werth certainly can’t hurt.

91. Andrew Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 10:06 pm

    ERA is the most over rated stat for pitchers. Like BA is for hitters. Its for stupid people to obsess on. Yes it matters but its a secondary stat like WHIP. Now with 9 wins from your 5th starter I would moyer is having a good year. The few shellings mean no he wont end up with an ERA under 4. But neither will cole. But if they combine for over 30 wins thats what its about. Some of the lack of baseball knowledge is amazing. The phils are about to coast out to a nice lead where we can relax in the division race. with Cole and Jamie having ERAs in the upper 4s.

92. NJ Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 10:07 pm

    Ed R- I can appreciate your viewpoint but if wins are solely on the team then why do wins affect managers?

    This is a results business and if a team wins behind a pitcher there’s value to that, player wins aren’t meaningless if the team gets better results when a guys pitching. When your holding a guy up against his competitors peripheral stats become important but when it comes to a Moyer your not holding him up against the creme of the league, your looking at him against pitchers in a similar role. If he’s getting better results he’s the move valuable pitcher on a winning team because past the stats, the weather, the scrutiny sometimes you just have to concede that baseball skills and intangibles still have a place in this game. When you watch the game sometimes you have to just appreciate a guy playing better/or worse than the stats and wins carry some relevance to how good or bad a starting pitcher has been. As good as Matt Cain has been without winning games, Moyer, in his role has won games because he’s been better than his ERA.

    Stats are incredibly important, their the backbone of this game but there still has to be wiggle room for playing the game, starting pitchers wins aren’t the most important stat when judging a pitcher, but the stat carries some relevance.

    Reliever wins, that’s a different story…

93. Grrrumpy Miner Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 10:08 pm

    F—!

94. Mostone Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 10:10 pm

    In my opinion, Eagles chants at opposing ballparks are awesome.

    Great game Phils!

95. Andrew Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 10:12 pm

    The Mess were eliminated day 1. They suck. I would rathere they win then the Braves. I do predict once its aug and sept and they are out of the race they will play well. then all the stupid people in the media will pick them again next year. And guess what? They will suck again next year. They are losers. Period. As long as they are the group of players they are now they are not a factor.
    It is great that all these injuries give Minaya and Jerry an excuse. I hope they keep their jobs forever. They are a phillies fans best friend.

96. Ed R. Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 10:14 pm

    Matt I agree with everything you said. As a pitcher Moyer is at the very best a 5th starter, who honestly, probably should have retired but chose not too. The Phillies brought him back and we have to accept what he will give us for as long as he is on the team. Hopefully he reevaluates things at the end of the season and retires so the team does not have to make a decision as to whether or not they should release him.

    What Moyer has brought to this team as a teacher and mentor is in fact invaluable. Every pitcher on that roster has probably learned a thing or two from Moyer, especially Hamels. It is not unfair to say that the Phillies would have never won the World Series last year if it weren’t for Moyer, maybe not Moyer the pitcher but Moyer the teacher. A lot of what Hamels gives us is God given talent mixed with training mixed with teacher and Moyer clearly is one of the best teachers in the game and why not? He has played two decades in the majors while not being the most talented guy out there but by being one of the smartest and sometimes, even in sports, brains is just as good as brawn.

    I also agree that Ibanez may not have been the best example as you are absolutely right, the line up he is in is clearly a huge factor in his spiked production. But I think you get my point nonetheless. A ball park can absolutely play to a players strengths and that can lead to their statistics looking much better than the player actually is.

97. NJ Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 10:15 pm

    Maybe if this is the consensus view pitcher wins should be scrapped completely. Forget Randy Johnson’s 300th win and all other milestones that correspond to wins because obviously it means nothing, it’s all just a coincidence that’s happened so enough times to recognise…

    I’m not saying wins should be held as the benchmark of how you judge a pitcher, all I’m saying is the stat deserves a ‘little’, just a little bit of recognition. Just because wins shouldn’t decide the Cy Young it shouldn’t be completely disregarded because it does matter, maybe less than some people think or more than others but it does carry some relevance.

98. Andrew Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 10:21 pm

    Wins is bottom line the MOST important stat for pitchers. And goalies in hockey. Used to be back in the day a good pitcher would experiment when they had a big lead. It was a smart thing to do to give up 4 runs in a game you are winning 10-0. You try something and maybe yuo develop something positive to use in a game you are winning 1-0 that can help you get another win. Just win baby.

99. rob5000 Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 10:25 pm

    Wow soo… Jamie Moyer just two wins away from leading the NL. Not that he isn’t most likely expendible but Geoff you should shove it… The old man wins.

100. beta sigma shag Says:
     July 16th, 2009 at 10:25 pm

     Had to play golf just finished watching the game on DVR . And after reading the last few days post I had to come here and see what all the Moyer haters would be saying. The guy pitches 7 innings and probably could have come out in the 8th if the pen really needed the rest, ZERO runs, ONE HITgot out of a fist and second one out after giving up his ONLY HIT, wait I said that already. And all people can talk about is his stats, the guy just won his 9th game wheather that stat means anything or not. The Pitched great, give him his props and be happy for the win to start the second half of the season.
     Is he going to do this every time out, no, would I like him to yes. Is he going to get ripped once in a while yes, every time out no. He is going to give you a chance to win games 3 out of 4 starts, he is as good a #5 starter as half the teams out there.
     And he is going to be in the rotation for the rest of the year unless he has 3 or 4 starts where he just gets bombed, but that will not happen because he is a good pitcher. So Geoff and you following who like to bash a guy with 9 wins and what 7 or 8 quality starts go f yourself

101. Ed R. Says:
     July 16th, 2009 at 10:26 pm

     NJ – the reasons wins and loses effect the manager is because he is the one in charge of the team, which is responsible for the wins and loses. Now sure there will be a game or two where a manager can lose a game based on his strategizing, we all know Manuel has made questionable moves from time to time that in retrospect we think to ourselves “why the hell would he do that when so and so…” in the same vain, Manuel has also made decisions that have turned out to be brilliant but in both instances the players have to perform, that is what I mean by teams win games. If a pitcher pitches poorly, for an extended period of time he can get removed, replaced or cut, with a manager they get fired. It’s easier to fire a manager rather than replace an entire team. That is why managers are held accountable. That is not something that it unique to baseball, it happens all the time. Even in my line of work, when an office performs badly, for an extended period of time, sure someone in that office may get fired, maybe two or three people, but in the end if will be the manager/director to go because again, its easier to replace one person than it is to replace everyone. Even if it is not their fault.

     I don’t disagree that stats have a place in this game, and in sports in general but I do not believe that statistics alone can be the be all end all of discussions such as these. There needs to be wiggle room, in baseball especially for the reasons I stated before. Literally, the playing field is not equal as it is in the other sports. That matters. Baseball is a sport of quirks as much as anything else. The Phillies are what 8-0 vs the Nats, take those games away are they suddenly not a 1st place team? Yankees are 0-8 vs the Red Sox, take those games away are they suddenly a first place team? Moyer owns the Marlins, for whatever reason he does. Some say its because its an undisciplined team and maybe thats the case… but how do you factor that into statistics? You can’t really. My point with that is that sometimes things happen, for whatever reason that transcend statistics and just are what they are. We have to accept that. There isn’t a stat for everything. As hard as we try to make sure there is.

     Again, please don’t get it twisted, I have nothing against Moyer. I do think he is what you can expect from a 5th starter as a pitcher but fantastic as a teacher.

102. Ed R. Says:
     July 16th, 2009 at 10:32 pm

     Sorry Andrew but I have to disagree with you. Wins are absolutely not the most important stat when it comes to pitchers. It might not even be in the top 3. Again I will use the example of Roger Clemens in 2005. He had 13 wins, there were 36 pitchers in the NL and AL with more wins than him but yet he lead all of baseball in ERA. Does that mean that all 36 of those pitchers were better than Clemens in 2005? No it does not. Were some of them better than Clemens? Possibly. But to say that wins is the most important stat for pitchers is just completely wrong.

103. rob5000 Says:
     July 16th, 2009 at 10:34 pm

     Too bad all of those stats are negated due to roid usage

104. Ed R. Says:
     July 16th, 2009 at 10:37 pm

     Well that is a discussion for a whole other night.

105. j reed Says:
     July 16th, 2009 at 10:38 pm

     ed r.- ball parks of different dimensions are problematic but baseball is still considered the most statisically relevant sport because the nature of its play is more measurable than any other team sport. It really boils down to batter vs. pitcher. For example, take a sport where the game structure is more organic like hockey….you have 2 goalies and 10 non-goalies….that’s 12 variables at any given time, 10 of which are moving 30 mph on ice. Its a statistican’s worst nightmare. Also sabremetrics has at least for pitchers developed a stat like “adjusted ERA” that factors in a ball parks.

106. Andrew Says:
     July 16th, 2009 at 10:40 pm

     Wins are the core of the game. You play to win the game.
     Yes a guy who is 16-13 with a 1.12 era gets my vote for cy young over a guy who is 21-6 with a 5 ERA.
     But I will take the wins for my team. At the root of any sport the most important stat is wins. Is wins the most important stat for any team? You are what your record says you are. I love using the old coaching quotes. But you get what i mean. the team with the best stats usually doesnt win? But whats the most important stat? you could argue that wins is the only stat that does matter. Is a guy who wins 30 games with a 9 ERA the best? I will take him and his 30 wins. He is the best to me.

107. NJ Says:
     July 16th, 2009 at 10:42 pm

     My only grouse with the hardcore stat-heads is that a lot of people tend to put its importance before what’s going on in the game. At the end of the day all that’s important is what gets you into October, throw out what’s come before go straight to the stats to make sure of things from there sure. If the Yanks can’t pick up enough games elsewhere to off-set their losses to the Red Sox chances are there’s a great problem (like their struggles against the AL West teams). I’ve used Moyer as an example because I believe his 9 wins help to show he’s not been as bad this year as the prominent stats like his ERA and WHIP suggest, I’m not advocating his 9 wins mean he’s been as good as say Matt Cain with his 10, but I believe if he was pitching as badly as some people say he has whilst screaming about his ERA then he’d only have a couple of wins. If Moyer wins 15 games then I think it’s a benchmark to show he has served some value to the team, the rest of the stats back-up the fact he hasn’t been great, probably hasn’t been that good but better than the worst pitcher in baseball tag.

     (Ed if it seems like this has been a rant against you that isn’t my intention, I just genuinely feel we sometimes get lost in the rigid use of stats and stop appreciating what the games about)

108. Andrew Says:
     July 16th, 2009 at 10:47 pm

     Chase utley is a baseball player. H happens to have good stats but I would want to goto war with him no metter. I guess Carlos Ruiz is the poster boy for this. His stats suck but hes a winner and does everything not in the stat book very well. The phillies have a group of winners. Emjoy them while you can. I believe Chase is the best player in the game. You never have to worry abotu him making a mistake or doing anything wrong. He is simply the best. Pujos may have better stats but Chase is the best. He is the MVP sorry Raoul

109. Ed R. Says:
     July 16th, 2009 at 10:53 pm

     NJ no offense taken at all. I have rather enjoyed our discussion. I think you and I are pretty much using different avenues to exemplify the same point. Either way I respect your way of going about this rather than many who get so hot headed that someone dare challenge their way of thinking and thus resort to name calling and various forms of belittling.

     All in all, solid win for the Phillies tonight.

110. Doug Says:
     July 16th, 2009 at 11:01 pm

     Little Tidbit on tonight’s game Pete MacKanian phils bench coach had a new number jersey 22, he had been 45 all season but with pedro’s arrival he gave it up. Not sure if it had been mentioned in here or not.

111. j reed Says:
     July 16th, 2009 at 11:24 pm

     Andrew – if there was a stat. more irrelevant than W-L for pitchers is the W-L for goalies. The speed of the game, the playing surface and that its a contact sport mean a statisically relevant number of goals are scored by happenstance for which a goalie isn’t necessarily responsibile. You can’t just measure outcomes without acknowledging the variables behind them and in hockey, the games fluidity makes this difficult.

112. j reed Says:
     July 16th, 2009 at 11:36 pm

     Anyone know how players’ numbers are decided outside of the traditional system where their number reflected their position in the line-up?

113. Bruce Says:
     July 17th, 2009 at 12:11 am

     To Grrrumpy Miner who asked..”Where are the cynics who was crying thay Moyer is “Washed Up”.

     They are hiding under a rock. (laughing)

114. Georgie Says:
     July 17th, 2009 at 12:24 am

     Oh, it’s beer PONG, I thought it was beer BONG, boy am I confused.

     Just got back from the Reading Phils game, lost 5-2, Flande looked pretty bad, bats weren’t on fire either, but, hey, they have lots of mascots and there’s ALWAYS something going on between innings, and the little kid behind me kept whacking me on the head-woo hooooo!!!

115. Andrew Says:
     July 17th, 2009 at 12:33 am

     My point is simply this. In organized athletics. when yuo get down to the bottom of it. the only stat that matters at all is wins.
     You play to win the game.

116. Havoc Says:
     July 17th, 2009 at 12:44 am

     I think Geoff is actually Moyer’s greatest fan. Maybe all this stuff is him putting the reverse whammy on Moyer… That must be it. So now we can know whenever he complaigns about 7 innings of 1 hit ball that he’s just doing his part…

     However, before we all go crazy here let’s have Jamie get one or two other good starts against non Marlin teams. Maybe then we can talk about turning the corner.

117. Grrrumpy Miner Says:
     July 17th, 2009 at 2:29 am

     Bruce….the same can be said for Eli amongst the drivel that call themselves “Mets fans” and cower and disappear when the going gets rough as well and also Andrew…I take it you don’t like the Mets,DO YOU?However if it is not the season for the Mets…my hope is they come back from injuries and play the spoiler role and attempt to retool their team for 2010 because the team this year has a lot of flaws (with or without injuries) and it shows,also many millions of dollars worth of contracts will be gone after the last game including Delgado,Wagner,Putz to name a certain few.And FINALLY,we all know the Mets will not be dead last,THAT belongs to the Nationals. LETS GO METS!

118. Grrrumpy Miner Says:
     July 17th, 2009 at 2:29 am

     Beer PONG? Sorry pal,YOU are CUT OFF!

119. Matt Says:
     July 17th, 2009 at 4:10 am

     I can’t believe so many people don’t know what beer pong is. You have a table set up with 10 cups set up like bowling pins at each end, each filled with an inch or two of beer. You have a team of 2 people at each end, and you take turns shooting a ping pong ball in to the other teams cups. You make it, they drink it. First team to knock out all of the other teams cups wins. It’s also called Beirut. A beer BONG is a funnel with a hose on it that you pour a beer in to, then suck it all straight down through the hose in a few gulps.

120. TODDFROMFAIRMOUNT Says:
     July 17th, 2009 at 9:04 am

     DRINKABILITY!!!!

121. Georgie Says:
     July 17th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

     Thanks for the clarification Matt, I guess since I don’t drink beer, I haven’t had the pleasure of experiencing either of those games, and I can say with 100% certainty, I never will unless I’m in the mood for projectile vomiting.

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