Odds and Ends: Halladay a Hell of a Day

Posted by Pat Gallen, Sun, July 19, 2009 09:13 PM

Halladay shuts down Red Sox:
Toronto Blue Jays pitcher Roy Halladay tips his cap following a complete game 3-1 victory over the Boston Red Sox during AL baseball action in Toronto on Sunday, July 19, 2009. (AP Photo/The Canadian Press, Darren Calabrese)
Roy Halladay may have just gotten even more expensive. On Sunday, Halladay bedazzled the prolific Red Sox offense by throwing a complete game. Doc allowed one run over six hits and did not walk a batter. He struck out seven and threw just 105 pitches, including 78 strikes. His ridiculous season continues to get better as he dropped his ERA to 2.73 and pushed his record to 11-3.

Halladay’s name is still the most popular amongst those floating through the rumor mill. ESPN.com’s Buster Olney believes the Blue Jays need to trade Halladay in the next two weeks, or they will regret it. He likens this possible trade to the Twins dealing Johan Santana to the Mets a few years ago. The Twins got a shoddy deal because of the position they were in at the time, and the same could happen to J.P. Ricciardi and the Blue Jays if they wait any longer.

On top of the constant linking between the Phillies and Blue Jays, J.A. Happ upped his value on the market with his splendid dismantling of the Marlins. His latest seven-inning performance has his name buzzing through the tradeosphere. The better Happ pitches, the higher his value becomes, but is it even an option for the Phillies to trade him now?

Mets continue to fade:

Meet the new Mets. They have little pitching, a struggling offense, and lack a certain je ne sais quoi.

This weekend was a complete letdown for a team that began the second half six-and-a-half out of first. The Mets lost three of four to division rival Atlanta at a time when they really needed a turnaround. On Thursday, the Braves won the opener 5-3 behind a quality start from Derek Lowe. Friday was even more of the same as New York was trounced 11-0. A 5-1 victory on Saturday salvaged the series to an extent, but Sunday, the Braves made it yet another headache for the Mets.

A 7-1 Braves blowout puts New York nine games out of first place in the NL East. Is that a surmountable number for a team decimated by injuries and lacking a true staff? Fernando Nieve, the young hurler for New York, left the game with an injury.

The Mets as a team seem beaten down to the point of losing all will to compete. Their manager may go, their GM could go as well, plus, their star shortstop Jose Reyes is still not ready. It’s the turning point for the Mets right now as they approach a double-digit deficit in the division.

Atlanta sits six-and-a-half behind the Phillies, with Florida seven out.

Marlins getting a new stadium, name:

Over the weekend, the newly swept Florida Marlins finally broke ground on a new stadium on the site of the old Orange Bowl. The 37,000-seat ballpark will include a pool, and most importantly, a retractable roof.

As the Phillies learned the hard way this weekend after a rainout and a lengthy delay, South Florida can’t keep a baseball team if they don’t build a roof. The sweltering heat of Miami has pushed the fans away in droves, but finally there is help on the way.

In addition to that news, when Florida moves into its new digs, they will officially change their name to the Miami Marlins. A new stadium for the Marlins is a dangerous possibility for the rest of the NL East. A cooler home and new found money brought in from the ballpark could make a good, young team even better.

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157 Responses to “Odds and Ends: Halladay a Hell of a Day”

Evan Says:
July 19th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
Watching Happ pitch is fun, he’s been having a great run. Still if trading him can get 1.5 years of Halladay I’m all for it. He’s pitched well and shows a lot of poise, but Halladay is the ace that could be a big part of another championship.
jacob Says:
July 19th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
erm, no. what will it take to make philly phans understand that Happ is at worst a great number two in the rotation? 7-0 this year? done. fantastic. consideration for rookie of the year for the nl? down to the voters, but his name is at least on their minds and poised on their lips. admin would do a disservice to this team to trade him. sell the farm for doc, whole-heartedly. but a young, left-handed, and now proven young pitcher? hell no. he’s not trade-bait. you keep him, let him rack up the w’s and ride him as a 3 or 4 while he develops and grows into his place as the number 2 in the rotation.
He is still learning the game at the major league level. and i must say, he is doing so quite wonderfully this year. if he had been put into the rotation earlier he might be leading the league in wins. happ’s a winner. like it, love it, win with it phils.
NateB Says:
July 19th, 2009 at 11:38 pm
happ’s great, but he’s still new and hasn’t been truly tested. how bad will be his sophomore slump after teams analyze his weaknesses? will he ever be the ace that halladay is? doubtful. he reminds me of kendrick in 2007, but i believe he will do better than kendrick. i’d go for halladay and win the world series the next 2 years.
Rick Says:
July 19th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
I think you keep Happ. *If* he’s the real deal, and the organization think it’s realistic that he could be in the Phillies rotation for 5 years or more, then don’t trade him for 1.5 years of Halladay. I mean, people, we won the World Series. I want another too, but this club does not have to take out second mortgages anymore i.e. overpay and deplete the system. Now instead they can restock and rebuild while remaining highly competitive. Think down the road: besides Hamels, who will be in the rotation 2 years from now? Not Moyer. You’re thinking Brett Myers? They need some fresh arms. Now, if they can sign Halladay to a longer-term deal, I’m all ears.
Manny Says:
July 19th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
Happ hasn’t been truly tested??? Are you kidding me?? The guy’s pitched PLENTY of games already, are you not watching the games?!

(Ummm according to that logic, Halladay is unproven too cause he’s never pitched in the postseason!)
mikeB Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:07 am
I see no similarity between Happ and Kendricks. Happ is a better quality pitcher by far.
NateB Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:13 am
i agree with rick that we need to think of the future and happ might be the right guy. as for manny… it’s true happ hasn’t been fully tested yet. remember kendrick? he started 20 games in ‘07 (happ’s only started 15 in his entire career) kendrick’s rookie ERA and innings pitched are almost identical to happ’s. tell me… where is kendrick now? was he fully tested after his rookie year? i’ve been watching all of happ’s games. he’s great, but he’s a ROOKIE. how long have you been following baseball? rookies are not truly tested veterans. it’s just a fact, that’s all.
Steven Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:43 am
The Phillies also only have to pay Happ a rookie’s salary, which is about two orders of magnitude smaller the Roy Halladay’s. If they sign Halladay to a long term deal, it will drain a lot more money out of the Phil’s bankroll than keeping J.A. Happ over the same term. Now, if they could acquire Halladay on his current contract while keeping Happ, I’d say go for it.
Brian of CO Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:51 am
Rick hit the nail on the head honestly. Also just because Kendrick crashed and burned after his rookie year doesnt mean every Rookie we every bring up will. If we think like that, we may as well trade Happ, Donald and Drabeck for Halladay just because Kendrick crashed and burned. Thats insane.
Chris.I Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:53 am
I don’t agree with the Phils emptying out the piggy bank on just one player for a year & 1/2, unless we can lock him up long term early, and still be able to keep Happ in Red stripes. Haven’t we learned anything from the Garcia deal? Gonzalez, and Floyd? Come on now Amaro! We are ”EIGHT” games ahead in the NL East…Nothing needs attention right now. Were good enough already to win another W.S back to back to back to back…Go Phils!
Brian of CO Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:59 am
Chris I, I agree the Phils are a very good team, but they are ALL firing on all cylinders right now. I dont think we want to get too far ahead of ourselves and forget the first half of the current season and forget the fact that our starting pitchers are in the bottom 5 in MLB for almost every major category including ERA and homers.
Andrew Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:18 am
Happ just got more expensive too. In no way can he be in a deal now.
Mazinman Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:55 am
The Phillies are looking really good right now. They are heads and shoulders better than any other team in their division. The problem comes when one compares then to the other teams in the NL. If one puts them against The Cardinals, Dodgers, or Giants then things get tougher. Halladay to me would still be a great move (as long as we do not give up Happ) for two reasons:

1) If we get Halladay we can bring in Martinez into the rotation and give Hamels some time off. Maybe be skipping a couple starts they can figure out what he has had so many problems. Having Halladay in the rotation allows for this luxury.

2) Halladay has been Mr. Stability which is good in a rotation that has been very unstable this year.
Nationals#1 Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:00 am
“Miami Marlins” just sounds awful. they’re going to have to change their logo now too
Brian of CO Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:08 am
Being Compared to the Cards and especially the Giants are the least of our problems. Didnt we sweep the Cards? The trick to the Cardinals is Albert Pujols. IF (yes thats a big IF) you contain him you contain the Cardinals, the Giants are not as good as the Dodgers or the Cards, and I would even say the Brewers and the Cubs have more potential than the Giants honestly. I am not saying that the Giants are not a good team, but just because they have a record close to ours (50-41 to the Phils 51-38) Doesnt automatically make them a comparable team. As I recall BOTH the Rockies and Giants had losing records in the last week of June, then went on a horrendously good streak. Lets not forget the Giants also play ALOT of games against the Diamondbacks and the Padres. Even the Mets are better than the Padres and Diamonbacks. The only team in the league that are worse than those two teams are the Nationals. Now sadly, the Dodgers are the scary ones. Do we have what it takes to beat them? Without a doubt we do. Will we for the rest of this season? Not so sure.
Nationals#1 Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:10 am
we’re 7 games ahead, not 8. but that’s not really that important at all because right now the nl east is a very lousy division. the marlins are scrappy but they don’t have what it takes yet. the mets are a shell of a team, the braves are mediocre, and the nationals are the worst team in baseball history. you can’t base our chances of making it deep into the playoffs from our division lead in the middle of july, and the bottom line is that we need an ace right now if we want another world series, period.
sweets Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:24 am
Halladay’s name is still the most popular amongst those floating through the rumor mill. A great fun for Halladay.
Tim Rich Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:37 am
He meant the Phils are 8 ahead in the loss column.
Mark B. Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 3:34 am
Happ not tested?? Were you watching that sixth inning, or for that matter the entire Sunday game? Tested again and again. And how can anyone mention Kendrick in the same breath?? Kendrick was NEVER this consistent and was never undefeated. In fact, I am not sure that we need Halladay to win in 2009. And he’s gonna cost the Phils BIG TIME on the back-end 1 1/2 years from now. Check out my blog for my comments on Halladay. If you’re going to go for him, you CAN’T TOUCH Happ. To do so would be a huge blunder.
Havoc Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 5:33 am
From listening to all the analysts, you’d think the Phils are in the worst bargaining position ever in regards to Halladay, but in reality the Jays position is deceptively weak. Frankly the decision to put Halladay up on the trade block is a desperation move, especially from a team that was in the race for most of the first half in the toughest division in baseball.

I’m not sure if they’re desperate because they can’t win their division or more likely that they can’t meet their payroll with two monstrous and untradeable contracts Rios & Wells. Either way when your opponent in a deal is desperate you don’t make a deal in their favor. Do the Phils want to have Halladay on the team, of course, but do they NEED to have him on the team. Honestly the answer there is no. He certainly improves the odds of going back to the world series, but it’s not impossible for the Phils to do that without him. The Jays don’t just want to unload Halladay by the deadline they need to. If they wait until the offseason his value will continue to drop and they’ll continue to spend more and more money. So far every other team that is supposed to be in the Halladay sweepstakes has been eliminated because they don’t have the prospects, can’t handle the salary, or are in the same division as the Jays. It honestly seems like the Phils are the only team in this thing.

This is the point where you have to play hardball with the Jays. Make a feeler offer and then closer to the deadline come to them with a 5 or 6 for 1.

1. Brown
2. Knapp
3. Taylor
4. Donald
5. Marson

A solid offer of cheap young talent with two prospects in the top 50. Unless other teams get involved there is no reason to believe that this isn’t the best offer. With a 7 game lead in the division the Phils don’t have to panic and give up Drabek & Happ as some people are suggesting. The lack of competition in the division has given us the entire second half to try and work out our rotation problems. If you can’t get Halladay done for the offer above, you make trade offers for Doug Davis, Aaron Harang or the slew of other pitchers who are going to become available in the last few days of the month. Who knows maybe Pedro will even summon up some more magic. The bottom line is in this trade the Jays need the Phillies not the other way around.
Baseballbriefs.com Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 7:04 am
Baseballbriefs.com tracking back Odds and Ends: Halladay a Hell of a Day…

Baseballbriefs.com tracking back Odds and Ends: Halladay a Hell of a Day…
karen Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 7:36 am
Yes, Happ is young and a relatively new major league pitcher but he also has some degree of team loyalty. He fits in with the club and is able to improve upon his pitching each start. That may not win us a championship each and every year we have him but we can feel comfortable in him being the 2, 3 or 4 starter. It is when the club starts to seek out championships year after year that they have problems…..The Yankees and the Mets and the Red Sox have all been focused on winning that world series again and they haven’t. Santana was not the magic key for the mets to win it all. Anyway, who has the best record/average on the phillies? do you really want to gamble on losing the most consistent pitcher for 1.5 years with halladay and his huge salary….I am a JA Happ fan so I guess I am biased but he is something special that I dont want to lose right now
Keith E Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 7:37 am
In honor of Pat Gillick I say “stand pat”! The NL East is the Phils to lose at this point. They have the rare opportunity to ready themselves for the playoffs at this early stage. Is a Halladay win worth more in the standings than a JA Happ win? Not from where I sit! The Phils have some young talent that will be ready when this current 3 year cycle runs it’s course and will need these players. Milwaukee won the CC Sweepstakes and what did it get them? … the Mets with Santana? There is a certain amount of pride when I look at our line up and see true MLB stars that this organization has drafted and developed. They are truly “Our Phils”!
So the question is; how many more wins will Halladay give us over Happ? I say at this point in time it’s apples for apples. Keep Happ.
btw; I’m the idiot that suggested Amaro go to Houston with a bag of cash and come home with Oswalt.
GO PHILLIES!!!!
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 8:06 am
Havoc – I agree with your strategy, but honestly, right now I wouldn’t offer the Blue Jays that much. In addition, if there is one thing the Jays have, its outfielders. Out the Wazoo. They’te gonna want a picther. At this point, who do you wanna keep more, Happ or Drabek?

The Dipsy
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 8:20 am
Keith, if I were to take a guess at that number, over the course of a season, my answer would be: at least 7.

The Dipsy
Havoc Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 8:30 am
True The Dipsy, but the Jays would love to lose the two outfielders they have. If you include both it gives them the option. They’d have to eat a ton of those contracts but they’d have cheap replacements to save them a little money. Even though it’s quite a few players I don’t think 5 or 6 to 1 is too much for Halladay. The key is just what 5 or 6 do we offer.
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 8:36 am
H – Have you looked at those contracts? If you pull them up on ESPNand look at them I guarantee you that you will laugh so hard that you will pee on your computer and short it out. Those contracts are going anywhere. Think Sam Dalembert x 10.

The Dipsy
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 8:41 am
I can oly think of a few examples of guys like this coming to Philly. Dr. J and Moses coming to the Sixers. Pete Rose going to the Phils, And Eric Lindros going to the Flyers. Now, I don’t follow hockey but I understand that last one didn’t work out too well. It is so infrequent that a guy is out there that can be said to “put you over the top”. I think Halladay may be the guy.

The Dipsy
Stuart Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 8:42 am
Chris I, I do not agree with you at all. Just because we are 8 ahead in the loss column in arguably the worst division in baseball right now does not mean we are good enough to win the WS yet. Our division is weak and we have to realize that. We play the mets, and the nationals a lot. maybe two of the worst teams in the league. In no way do I feel we could win the WS right now with this pitching staff. I would not mind trading Happ. Hamels had a great amazing year last year and he isnt nearly as good. I do not want to trade him but im saying that Happ is not guaranteed to have a good year next year. Halladay has proved he can pitch great year after year.
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Happ or Drabek?

The Dipsy
Papa Thompson Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 8:48 am
Kendrick pitched several starts while undefeated, and got off to a record in the neighborhood of 4-0. He looked like the second coming of Marty Bystrom, and has ended up with about as much success.

I think Happ is way better than Kendrick was as a rookie. But it’s definitely too early to tell what Happ’s going to do, and it’s entirely possible he’ll nosedive and begin to do so very soon.

I like Happ’s chances of maintaining because he doesn’t rely on gimmick pitches and seems to when by pitching to location and keeping the ball down. He’s been great. But I’d trade him for 1.5 years Halladay any day, especially since his value is swelling and it would probably cost us fewer prospects.

On the Marlins’ new stadium, it’s worth checking out the renderings at the team site:

http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/fla/ballpark/new_ballpark.jsp

Ther’s not much field detail yet, but the design is way cool. I’m defintiely looking at a 2012 road trip.
randy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 8:53 am
As to the mets falling quickly…what about a trade to pick up Shef for a right handed bat of the bench? Prolly wouldnt take much to get him
Ben Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 9:27 am
if we can include happ and not include drabek (or vice versa) based on happ’s recent success i say we jump on the opportunity.

winning the nl east is nothing. we have to have a team that can win a 5 game series and two 7 game series. right now we match up well with any ace with hamels, and frankly after that we are at a disadvantage. we need another front end starter who can pitch in those series.
Georgie Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 10:10 am
They were talking about Halladay’s contract the other day on DNL, said there is a clause included that gives him the right to be traded after this season if he doesn’t like it where he is. So that would mean giving up who knows what for a half year rental. That would be INSANE! I don’t know if anyone can verify this, but if it is in fact part of his contract and he can demand to be traded after this season, Rub and Co. need to think long and hard before giving up Happ or Drabek.
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Keep Happ. Trade Drabek and GET THIS DEAL DONE!!
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Halladay’s most likely gonna end up with either Dodgers, Angels, Red Sox or Yankees if the Phillies don’t get him. At some point in the postseason the Phillies are gonna have to face the guy….a couple of times. And, odds are, the team that he’s on is most likely going to advance. Sure, we can compare him to C.C. all we want and the fact that the big guy choked last year with the Brewers in the playoffs. But Halladay is better than C.C. (look at C.C. numbers this year……not bad but not even close to Halladay’s). I agree with Dipsy when he says, “I think Halladay may be the guy.”

All being said…there are no guarantees….but I think it’s close to the time when RAJ needs to pull the trigger. They want Drabek, apparently, so trade the guy. Maybe he’s the next Cy Young or Walter Johnson or Pedro when he was a Red Sox……or……maybe he’s the next Adam Eaton (probably not…but you get the point). I think we have to take the chance here. An opportunity like this may not come along again for a long time.
Manny Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 10:37 am
I saw that too Georgie… I doubt Halladay would use that clause to get out of a contending team like the Phils, but you never know…
Frank Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 10:37 am
If you think about this whole trade and the prospects that we would be giving up, you have to look to our past prospects. The key parts to our team that won it all last year, Utley, Victo, Hoaward, Hamels, Burrell, Rollins etc, came up through the minor leagues. The question is: is taking the chance of Drabek, who can potentially be a Hamels or better, when Hamels was ptiching well, worth giving up for Hallday. Look at Gavin Flloyd or Randy Wolf who came up and we traded and how they turned out to be decent pitchers. However, I think at this point our farm system is so deep, it is worth it to trade one of the best prospects, Drabek OR Taylor. Not both. Taylor will be the next coming of Howard if you compare there stats. In order to contend again this year we need a top of the line pitcher, like Halladay. We need to close this deal.
NJ Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 10:41 am
For those that our saying we should give 5 or 6 of our best prospects to Toronto, look at the rumour-mill and compare what every other team is supposedly offering. Riccardi is just sitting there hoping the Phillies get jumpy enough to make that kind of offer because no-one else is, rumour has them offering 1 or 2 top prospects maximum.
psujoe Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 10:41 am
I’m willing to part with Dravek, butnot Dravek and Taylor. I’m not giving up two top prospects for a rental.

I’d go Dravek, Marson, Donald and a pitcher not named Knapp.
psujoe Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Actually, i would probably add Knapp if it’s just those 4.
Doug D. Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 10:47 am
Happ is much different than Kendrick. In 2007, Kendrick was able to work out of a lot of jams, while using basically one pitch. In 2008, the word was out and Kendrick is now back in the Minors trying to develop some consistency and confidence with secondary pitches. At this point, I am still not counting out Kendrick making it back to the Show, although it may not be in a Phils uniform. Happ, on the other hand, knows how to “pitch” and already has the ability to use his secondary pitches. Happ doesn’t get into many jams, although yesterday’s 6th inning was a beautiful one to wriggle out of with no damage. Call Me Jay is left-handed, is not afraid to throw inside to righties (unlike Kendrick with lefties), and is deceptively fast, which is a big plus. Pitchers are tabbed as being “deceptively fast” for a reason. It’s usually something in either their delivery and/or their physical stature that causes the deception. It’s not something that hitters EVER “catch up to” as so many think will happen to Happ. He is a keeper. Including him in a trade for Halladay doesn’t make sense, as it will hurt the Phils almost as much as Halladay will help.
Manny Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Who plays for our Single A team? The Jays scouted our players there.
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Frank, it looks like the Jays want both Taylor and Drabek. I say go. Let’s do it. At first, when I thought about it, I was not in favor of dealing both. But I think it’s time to get this done…..NOW. Taylor’s numbers ARE impressive and he certainly has that potential. But power hitting outfielders can always be had either via trade or free agency and, while it would hurt losing him, I think you have to take that chance in order to get a pitcher like Halladay. Drabek could be great as well but, again, he’s not at all proven at this level and there are no guarantees that he’ll succeed.
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 10:52 am
NJ…not 5 or six….four. Taylor, Drabek, Donald and Carrasco. It’s rich but not system-gutting.

Doug D… I absolutely agree with your reasoning on Happ.
psujoe Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 10:53 am
Chuck, dravek, taylor and what else would you be willing to give up?
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 10:54 am
Donald and Carrasco. Both easily replaceable in my opinion.
NJ Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Honestly why is there a Kendrick vs Happ comparison being made, their two totally different pitchers. Kendrick was a young, underdeveloped under-seasoned prospect with very little ’stuff’ to speak of who came up contributed incredibly well and then couldn’t build on that. Happ is a totally different pitcher, he is a big guy with stuff and command who has as much minor league seasoning as anyone. He’s not going to be a front of the rotation guy by design but he can anchor the middle of the Phillies rotation for a half decade plus.

The Jays want Drabek, they want Brown and Knapp, Riccardi wants to be spoilt with ‘top prospects’ so he wont want a deal built around Happ.
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:04 am
Good point NJ…but do you think that Riccardi would change his mind after Happ’s performance yesterday? I mean, at what point does the light bulb go off in someone’s head? That’s what makes me nervous. IF Ricarrdi starts demanding Happ, does Ruben go along with it to get his man? At that point, I think it’s time to take a step back and consider other options.
psujoe Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:06 am
So, Dravek, Taylor, Donald and Carrasco. If I thought I’d get him for more than 1.33 years I’d probably do it, but reluctantly.

I guess the question is do we stand a better chance at winning a WS over the next 5 years with Halladay in 2009, 2010 or Dravek, Taylor and another starter(someone else we trade for this year) and an extra 15 million to get other players in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013. if the answer is yes, make the deal.
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:12 am
I hear you on the 1.33 years…..but we have 2 shots at a WS within that time frame. So I think we do it. And….who knows…..Threepeat???? Now THAT would be cool. Totally worth NOT winning for a few years after that because we don’t have Drabek and Taylor. Just my opinion.
Manny Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:13 am
I do not understand how people can fall out of love so quickly with guys like Carrasco. Let me remind you: he’s consistently been our top pitching prospect… and he’d still be our TOP pitching prospect had it not been for Drabek’s recent success. Carrasco has consistently projected to be a No.2 starter, potentially behind Cole Hamels in our rotation. An All-Star last year (just like Drabek this year)… still very young. HE IS NOT “EASILY REPLACEABLE.”

I agree with Geoff… no other team can put a package as good as the Phillies can… Carrasco would headline a package in any other team, especially when you consider that he’s nearly MLB ready… so why do we have to be so jumpy and treat him as a second-level prospect? When someone says “oh let’s give up Drabek, Taylor and then 2 other guys like Carrasco” my stomach twitches.

For Halladay, I would offer: Taylor-OR-Brown, Carrasco, Donald, and Knapp. Anything above that is a deal breaker, in my opinion.
Geoff Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:17 am
PAT ATTENTION to whats going on around baseball in regards to Halladay. NOBODY is willing to give up what Toronto is demanding for him. Thats consistent across the board. What happens when everyone does that? THEN the price comes down and Phase II – the real negotiations begin. Now the price comes down to something similar to what got Dan Haren.

Thats what normally happens. And if Ricciardi doesnt drop the price then the player wont be moved. And I think he could end up getting himself fired. This reminds everyone of the Santana situation where the Twins priced themselves out of a good package and ended up with a weak return.
NJ Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Hate to say it but I think the Phils would be very smart to see Halladay go into the off-season as a Jay. Riccardi’s unwillingness to get his dirty trying to get a deal done is going to come back and hurt him. Once we get into the off-season Halladay isn’t so prized a commodity with Cleveland fielding offers for Lee, with Peavy dangling, Lackey, Webb and Bedard as free agents.

Halladay seems gettable for a much fairer Johan Santanaesque price when the above comes into play.
Geoff Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:19 am
Replacing one good starter (Happ) with a great starter (Hallladay) is an upgrade BUT its still leaving that hole there. I dont think youve really solved anyhting if you do that. It makes no sense. YOu improve a team by trading prospects to add TO the roster. Theyre not getting a 25-man roster player from us out of this deal.
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:21 am
Manny, you just went on about how much you like Carrasco (which is fine..I get that)only to put him in a deal. THAT deal (the one you propose) probably won’t cut it. If we offer Drabek it gets the deal done, I think. Ok, so if you want to keep Carrasco, then give up another pitcher. And please don’t say Kyle Kendrick…..Toronto doesn’t want our junk.
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Yeah….Happ should absolutely be off the table. Sure….right now Halladay IS better than Happ and one for one is an upgrade. BUT…a HUGE hole is opened up and then what….???

Look at this rotation…

Halladay
Hamels
Happ
Blanton
Pedro/Lopez/Moyer

and then look at this…

Halladay
Hamels
Blanton
Pedro/Lopez/Moyer
Pedro/Lopez/ Moyer

Now which one looks better?
Ben Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:37 am
on the flip side look at this rotation comparison

Hamels
Happ
Blanton
Moyer
Pedro/Lopez

vs.

Halladay
Hamels
Blanton
Moyer
Pedro/Lopez

thats our current rotation vs one with halladay and we trade happ. look, i don’t want to give up happ, but his value is only rising. maybe we can now include him and not include drabek. but frankly, if we go to the playoffs with rotation 1 vs rotation 2, our odds sky rocket to win the series with rotation 2.

don’t overpay, but including happ is not the end of the world. we make the playoffs playing solid ball. if you won’t believe we can’t make the playoffs with either of those rotations you are crazy. but can we win in the playoffs with both rotations? i’d rather have the second one.
Grrrumpy Miner Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:38 am
randy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 8:53 am
As to the mets falling quickly…what about a trade to pick up Shef for a right handed bat of the bench? Prolly wouldnt take much to get him
M.P. aka A.J. #54 Says:
July 5th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
There are plenty of overrated players:

Carlos Beltran
Ryan Church
Fernando Martinez
Daniel Murphy
Angel Pagan
Jeremy Reed
“Gary Sheffield”
Cory Sullivan
Luis Castillo
Alex Cora
Carlos Delgado
Nick Evans
Ramon Martinez
Argenis Reyes
Jose Reyes
Fernando Tatis
David Wright
Omir Santos
Brian Schneider
Elmer Dessens
Pedro Feliciano
Sean Green
Eddie Kunz
Arturo Lopez
Patrick Misch
Carlos Muniz
Fernando Nieve
Bobby Parnell
J.J. Putz
Francisco Rodriguez
Brian Stokes
Ken Takahashi
Billy Wagner
Livan Hernandez
John Maine
Jonathon Niese
Mike Pelfrey
Oliver Perez
Tim Redding
Johan Santana
Randy….Most of IF not ALL of the fan base here thinks,that last example lists EVERY Metropolitan to play this season INCLUDING Gary Sheffield is “Over rated” as listed by a Phillies fan 2 weeks ago.Now WHY would you want an “Over Rated” player ESP from the Mets on your team and SECONDLY,If Sheffield meant the last piece for the 2009 World Series Part Deux…I highly DOUBT the Mets would gift wrap a player Phillies Fans look as “Over rated”.And to see guys like Andrew (Who wishes every single Met player Yesterday,today and tomorrow DIE in a plane crash and of course never existed) A friend of mine who posted the “Over rated” statement (No disrespect to you AJ54) and yourself rooting for Sheffield would come off as hypocritical.
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:39 am
Friends – Possible scenario: Halladay has told the Jays he wants out now. He sees the Phils, Cards, Angels, Sox, Yanks. He wants to go the post season THIS year. Riccardi tells Halladay that he’ll try and trade him but won’t give him away. Halladay then counters and says: “I want out now. get what you can. I’ll keep my mouth shut. You try to trade me in the off season and I’ll block it. I’ll play the last year with your shitty team and then let 30 teams bid for me.” Now Riccardi would probably think to himself that if Halladay wants to play for a winner he can just play for a winner next year and he’ll trade him at the deadline next year. He can think that, and he might be right. But can Riccardi take that chance? If Halladay is made to sit until July 31 of next year he will either:

1. Say screw you to the Jays and play out his deal, block any trade, and the Jays get nothing;
2. Halladay can handpick the team he wants to play for. This, for all intents and purposes gives Riccardi NO leverage if he can only negotiate with that team. And the Jays get screwed.

Riccardi should just play it safe and get a fair return for Roy before the deadline this year. Don’t get fancy and try and outthink yourself. If he doesn’t make a deal and Halladay will follow through on his threat, Riccardi is out of a job.

The Dipsy
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Moyer, Pedro and Lopez should not fill out two slots in the rotation for the long haul. Lopez is a nice option but he’s had, what, two starts since coming back? Pedro? We all have to wait and see and one or two good starts (I’m thinking positively) isn’t a good barometer for the long haul. Moyer? 9 wins…yes. Lat start was magificent….yes. But…he’s AT BEST a number 5. That’s why Happ’s presence in the rotation is so important. And don’t forget…..Hamels is NOT the same pitcher he was last year.
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Pat – Stop stealin my cliches

The Dipsy
Geoff Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:46 am
I agree. All these people continue to think we HAVE to give into their demands. We HAVE to trade Happ, or this guy or that guy,etc. Ruben Amaro has pulled Happ off the trading block (Fox Sports) so guess what? hes not getting traded – END OF DISCUSSION.

The Jays are the ones that have no leverage. The smart thing to do is exactly what dipsy said: play it safe get a solid return. Hes way out of line with his demands and I think hes going to be ran out of town if he screws this up.
Manny Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:51 am
Chuck: My point is that Carrasco is good enough of a prospect to have him in a package (INSTEAD of Drabek or Happ). From what I hear, he’s not better than Drabek (that’s why I’d rather lose CC) but he’s still gonna be a solid starter in the MLB. As fans, we are definitely undervaluing him right now… I’d love to see this thread in March or April, or anytime last year to see us all screaming DO NOT TRADE CARRASCO.
Don M Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Carrasco has always been ranked so high because of his “STUFF” .. but he hasn’t really ever put it together for a long stretch of time..

His Minor League Career ERA = 4.10

he’s struggling more at AAA, then he has at the lower levels, so I don’t think the Phillies feel comfortable with what they are seeing growth-wise from Carrasco.. otherwise they wouldn’t have given Bastarso, Lopez, Pedro etc chance to be the #5 starter

Carrasco in 2009:
4.97 ERA 108.2 Innings, 114 hits, 34 walks, 107 K’s … 1.36 WHIP.. in AAA

…
JA Happ has been great this year.. but you can’t say that you would rather have him in your rotation than Roy Halladay.. that just isn’t smart. We could be seeing JA Happ at his absolute best… he’s only got something like 16 career starts.. if his value is sky-high do you move him, allowing us to keep Drabek? Or do we hold on to Happ thinking he has a chance to be THIS GOOD for his career, or at least for a stretch of time?
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Manny. Carrasco is not all that….yet. And if he is he should consider accelerating his progress. Relax. Geoff, is that a misprint or are you agreeing with me? I thought I just saw a pig fly past my window. Ha. (I hate emoticons)

The Dipsy
NJ Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:57 am
Carrasco is a great prospect but he’s not the hot property he was, no matter what we’d like to think Riccardi wants Drabek and Knapp, he also wants one of the outfielders and wants major league ready talent in the deal as well.

Maybe Riccardi is working hard to try to get a deal done behind the scenes but on the face of it it doesn’t look like he actually does want to deal Halladay otherwise he wouldn’t be arbitrarily asking for all the top prospects and then more.
Chuck P Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:59 am
If you let Halladay get to the offseason, the potential suitor list expands… right now, there are only a few teams that are in position to make a run at a postseason (want to add Halladay right now) and that have the prospects to make it work. After this season, more teams will have fresh money to spend and bright futures to build. The most dominant pitcher in baseball is going to fill seats and every GM out there is going to have to see what they can do to get Doc Halladay. I don’t think you can miss an opportunity to bring Halladay to Philadelphia right now, even if it’s only for 1.5 years. Don’t act hasty, don’t give up the farm but be open minded about it. It might seem like a steep investment but we might be able to win a couple of world series’ to make Doc want to stay… or he leaves and we get 4 picks as compensation. In either case, I want to see this special group of players have the opportunity to build a dynasty. Without Hamels’ 100% and without Myers, this team doesn’t have the pitching to win in the postseason.
Geoff Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
I remember all of that. This is the same as the Sabathia situation give or take a few factors. The Indians got ONE elite prospect for Sabathia and a bunch of guys that were either filler OR are too far away to tell but are good at that early stage (like Knapp). Carrasco is a fine piece to that deal. They may have to give up Taylor instead of Drabek. If so then so be it. Taylor is blocked – though you still should try and hold onto him but its much better than trading away your top pitching prospect.
Geoff Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Don…the point is WHO EVER SAID THAT IT HAS TO BE EITHER HAPP OR HALLADAY? That is a FALSE dilemma. Happ is not on the trading block, and Toronto has NEVER said that they MUST HAVE him. That choice is simply just MADE UP by the fans and speculators in the media. There have been NO reports that the Jays are demanding Happ.
beta sigma shag Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
JA stays, period, to say he is not tested is crazy, did he not spot start last year, when Myers went down to AAA and pitch well, did he not come into post season games in relief and pitch real well, he has been tested and is a real deal, 2 or 3 guy in a rotation, Drabek, and Taylor or Brown would work for me, throw someone else in there.
And why is that just cause a guy is on the trading block does that mean they “gave up on him” A trade is not always about giving up on a guy, it is getting value for the guy. I do not think anyone is saying Carrasco is a bust, but if you can get Halladay value for him in a deal you do it.
Say Carrasco becoms a solid 2-3 pitcher for the Jays in a year or two, and in 2 or 3 years Drabek is their Ace. Phils resign Halladay to 4 or 5 years and the phils win two WS in that time, did they give up on those guys or just get value for them
Geoff Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
And I do realize thats its annoying when I capitalize words for no reason.
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
I never said Happ INSTEAD of Halladay….I said Happ AND Halladay. Yeah, he’s had 16 starts, that’s true. But….at THIS point…..I would rather gamble and hold onto him and deal Drabek, who has 0 starts. Granted, he’s being touted as the next ace, but what guarantees are there? None. We all can compare Happ to Kendrick and how Kendrick had this breakout year in ‘07. But Happ has developed more pitches, is more crafty, and has this poise and composure that Kendrick didn’t have. It just seems like he belongs. Is Happ the next Cy Young? Probably not. But is Drabek?
NJ Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
A dynasty doesn’t come because you’ve traded for one guy. The reality is the Phils will more likely give up all their top talent to see this year not end in a championship because the chances of repeating are so miniscule. Then as much as the Phils have a chance to contend maybe the Phils don’t get of to such a good start next year and suddenly the teams back where it was with guys like Abreu looking to dismantle, maybe the Phils just flat out run into the problem the Braves had all those years of worse like the Angels they get sent home in the first round of the play-off back to back years.

Maybe the suitors for Halladay increase in the off-season as the price inevitably comes down but all of a sudden Halladay isn’t the only guy out there and Bedard isn’t the only free agent. Teams will be on like Cliff Lee and Jake Peavy’s back in play, Brandon Webb’s a likely free agent, the Angels will have to pay big to retain Lackey and Erik Bedard will have multiple teams after him. Suddenly things don’t look so rosy for Halladay when he’s one on a list of a half dozen names teams would settle on.

It happened with Santana and he was no doubt the best pitcher in baseball when he was dealt. The off-season could be the real point the Phils cement the opportunity to add that final piece and still impact prospects to give the team as much of a chance to win 5 years from now.
Don M Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
I, for one, never said it had to be Happ or Halladay … but if JA Happ is the difference between us landing Halladay in a trade or not, I think I would say goodbye to Happ .. because, as good as he’s been… maybe even as GREAT as he’s been … he is no Roy Halladay.

Toronto has scouted Happ a few times.. which is speculation, I guess.. but to anyone that knows anything about baseball, the reason they are scouting him is because they are interested in acquiring him .. right?

I never said that the Jays are demanding Happ .. in fact, I haven’t read anything, anywhere about who or what they are demanding ..

but I’ve been saying all along that I can’t see any deal for Halladay that doesn’t include Happ or Drabek .. last week I was ready to say goodbye to Drabek, today I’m not so sure … Happ looks great, and I think me and you (Geoff) were the two guys saying in the offseason that he would have a real shot at 15 wins and 3.50 ERA, and a Rookie of the Year .. but I just wonder how long Happ can stay THIS good.
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Whats with all the Carrasco talk? If the Jays would take Carrasco and Knapp as the pitching going to Toronto, I would personally pick them both up and drive them to SkyDome or whatever you call where Toronto plays. Right now Carrasco is Nuke Laloosh before he started breathing through his eyelids. As far as Sabbathia, this team is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than the 2008 Brewers.

The Dipsy
Philly Texan Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
You can’t trade Happ for Halladay.

Makes no sense. Still leaves a hole in the rotation. While the quality would be better, because Halladay is better than Happ, that doesn’t matter much with this team. Does it matter if the Phils win 7-1 with Halladay or 7-3 with Happ — only to lose the next day because they had to start Lopez or Pedro or whoever……

Ofer the Jays: Donald, Carasco, Dominic Brown and Kendrick.

If they don’t bite, then bag it and go after Aaron Harang. That guy can pitch — gives 7 inn. almost every time with 3-4 runs (although he still loses cause the Reds can’t score.)

Hamels, Harang, Happ, Blanton. pretty good postseason rotation.
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Philly Texan – Thats dumb. The point is not winning the division, its what happens in the playoffs. I feel a lot more comfy with Halladay, Hamels, Blanton than Hamels, Blanton, Harang. Your playoff rotation doesn’t get it done. Just my opinion.

The Dipsy
NJ Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
I don’t know if I got to keep all of my major prospects I’d be pretty happy with Hamels, Harang, Blanton and a choice between Happ, Moyer or Martinez in October. Teams have won with less and lost with more.
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Maybe Happ CAN be this good for a long time. Or maybe he’s in for a serious sophomore slump. Who really knows? It’s all gamble. I just think that as good….or as “GREAT as he’s been”….it’s foolish to trade him if it comes down to him or Drabek. Especially if he’s got a shot at 15 wins, a 3.50 ERA and Rookie of the Year.
Don M Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
that was an offseason projection.. because I thought he was going to get 35 starts..

He’s good.. he acts like a professional.. and doesn’t get rattled.

but Roy Halladay is Roy Halladay..

BUT.. Geoff or someone said that Amaro took Happ off the trading block??? I haven’t seen that anywhere to confirm it.. but that would probably mean Drabek is gone.

Because, again, I really can’t see a trade going down where other teams would let the Phillies get Halladay, without giving up ONE of Happ or Drabek
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Dipsy….if it’s Carrasco and Knapp then I’ll go along and pay for gas and tolls if your drive.

The Carrasco talk was started by the press, of course. I heard it this morning on Sports Rise as it being Carrasco, Taylor, Donald and Drabek as being what it would take to get it done.
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Don…I heard Amaro last Wednesday on WIP responding to Eskin asking him if Drabek was untouchable. Amoro’s response was “as of right now, yes.” So, I guess you could read into that and think that Amoro wouldn’t rule out moving him at a later time.
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
^Amaro
Geoff Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
Thats from Scott Lauber – Phillies beat writer for Wilmington Paper I think.

http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20090720/SPORTS01/907200344
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Taking it a step further, I guess you could make an assumption that Amaro wanted to wait until Happ had another start or so before deciding on which way to go with him.
Geoff Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Its a piece on Happ, but the quotes from the Manger and the GM (yesterday post game) indicate that hes not being traded.
Don M Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
and I’ll bring my GPS to help us get to Toronto with no problems getting lost
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Chuck. I have made the switch from WIP to 950. I suggest you do the same. Missanelli is sooooo much better than Eskin. He actually, like, knows things. And can, you know, have a conversation or a dialogue. Also, Eskin doesn’t know shit about anything most of the time. If I wanna know baseball dirt, I listen to Olney, Gammons, Kirkjian. Thats about it. And I like David Murphy. Just in case you were interested which I’m sure you weren’t.

The Dipsy
Philly Texan Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Dipsey,

The postseason is a crap shoot. There’s no way to know if Hamels, Halladay, Blanton, and Moyer/Pedro would be a better playoff rotation than Hamels, Harang, Happ, Blanton.

Remember that Halladay has never pitched in the postseason and he’d face a tremendous amount of pressure after coming over in a blockbuster trade. Not saying he wouldn’t be good, but you never know. That’s why it’s a crapshoot. Would we have guessed that Myers would beat CC in last year’s playoffs? Or that Moyer would beat Garza (the ALCS MVP) in the World Series?

It’s a crapshoot — just ask the Cubs and Angels last year. Which is why we should think hard about dealing Drabek and/or Taylor (and certainly Happ) for Halladay.

Give me Hamels, Harang, Happ and Blanton, and I like our chances in the postseason. Maybe they win it, maybe not, but it’s gives us a good shot this year and would be better for the phils in the long run.
NJ Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
WIP is a great radio station if you need to get a quick injection of hate and loathing of the world. I’m not in the US and occasionally if I can’t sleep I’ll listen to some late night WIP because it’s just comical.

Someone should emulate airheads and make a move about WIP.
Geoff Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
I dont mind Gargano. I used to like the Gargano/Missanelli show back in the day. Otherwise I cant listen to it.

950 ESPN is solid. Missanelli doesnt care about any prospects though – hes always a “trade the farm” guy. Otherwise, Missanelli is really cool. Eskin is a piece of trash that hates every team other than the Eagles – including other Philly teams.
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
NJ – WHERE are you? PT – No, the playoffs are not a crap shoot.

The Dipsy
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
that’s assuming Harang’s available…….

Dipsy, actually I AM interested. Thanks. Yeah, Eskin’s a d!ck. Peter Gammons is a baseball God.
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
Actually, there is no one better than Ray Didinger on any of the stations. Everyone likes Gargano, including me. WIP is strong on the Eagles. Ike is good too. Eskin is totally over.

The Dipsy
NJ Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Maybe not immediate all-stars but you’ve got to think Drabek, Taylor and Brown could be big contributors in the future. By all means give away one, two if the rest of the package is weak but not two of the top guys and the major league ready players. If no-one else is going to pony up then let Riccardi soil his seat by going into an off-season with a lot of available arms when trying to make a deal.

I don’t want us to be like Mets fans and hang our hats on the idea one guy to carry the team only to suffer the pain of realism followed by anger. This team can either win with close what it has or it’s not going to win at all, that’s not saying Halladay doesn’t help this team more than anyone else could but you don’t need four complete games pitched to win a play-off series.
Kennedy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
We should get Halladay. That is a given. With the Rangers out of the picture, we have the farm system to do it, and honestly we can’t afford to let him go anywhere else. If my life was on the line and I needed to pick one pitcher from the last decade to start a game for it, it would be Halladay. He is the best.

That said, we shouldn’t need to give up Happ. We get Halladay, give Hamels a couple weeks off before the playoffs to rest his arm, keep Happ, and Blanton keeps pitching the way he has, we win a WS. Dodgers get Halladay: They get a WS. Cards get Halladay: they become the frontrunners for the WS. Same for Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, I’d even like the Rockies chances with Halladay. Besides Pujols, if I picked one player to anchor my team in the playoffs, it would be Roy Halladay, and backed by Hamels and Happ, we would repeat.

I think Drabek, Taylor, and Donald would be a very doable offer for us, and would also be the best the Jays could get. We’ve got a surplus of starters 2 years out of the majors (1 yr away: Carpenter, Kendrick, Bastardo 2 yrs away: Carrasco, Savery, Stutes Worley, Drabek)

That means trade Drabek for Halladay now, this yr got the playoffs with:

Halladay
Hamels
Happ
Blanton
Moyer/Pedro/Lopez

2010:

Halladay
Hamels
Happ
Blanton
Moyer/Carpenter/Carrasco/Kendrick/Bastardo

2011:

hopefully a resigned Halladay
Hamels
Happ
2 or 3 of Carpenter/Carrasco/Kendrick/Bastardo/Savery/Stutes/Worley

Even if we trade Drabek, we still have a surplus of guys who will be MLB starters. They might not be on Drabek’s level, but assuming we can resign Halladay (which we should be able, given the money we won’t be spending on Eaton+Myers), we’ll be dominant enough in the rotation already. With a nucleus of Halladay, Hamels, Happ, Utley, Howard, Ibanez, Rollins, Lidge, Victorino, Werth, and the extra money coming in, we’ll win multiple WS between 2009 – 2011, and all those guys are already under control in those yrs besides Werth (FA in 2011) and Halladay (would be FA in 2011). This is a team of destiny. The Phils have 2 WS victories in their history, get Halladay, and we’ll probably double that.
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Yeah, Gammons keeps his mouth shut until there is something to talk about. And a tip for you, Chuck – if you want something not to happen in your life, tell Ken Rosenthal what it is and hire him to say that it WILL happen – and then you’re golden.

The Dipsy
Geoff Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Eskin reminds me of Rush Limbaugh or whatever left-leaning equivalent of Limbuagh is popular now (Ariana Huffington?). The person is so biased and blatantly in the employ of one interest group that they have zero credibility yet idiots still listen to them. Its been so long since I cared about political talking heads – or about Eskin. But thats who he reminds me of – a total shill for the Eagles.

The lesser/younger guys at WIP are Ok sometimes on the weekends. They are more hockey/baseball oriented.
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Ken Rosenthal reminds me of that little animal that I constantly see in my backyard….looks something like a groundhog…oh, that’s right…its’s a weasel.
NJ Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
We have to remember it’s not just Drabek the Jays want, if it just is you just do the Hanley Ramirez thing Boston did and suck it up. The Jays want to make off with guys considered top tier prospects and still come away with a guy like Marson, Carrasco and or Donald.

If the Jays were really serious about getting a deal done they wouldn’t be asking for a haul they clearly don’t expect to get. They know full well his value goes down in the off-season so they may just open up to not wanting to take liberties in the next week but the Phils can’t throw it all in when no other team is prepared to offer anything in the same ballpark. Toronto have to be prepared to make a deal headed by one or two of our guys now because that’s going to be the highlight of anyone’s package in the off-season if their lucky.

Dispy- the UK
Kennedy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Keep in mind, assuming they don’t mind the payroll where it is, we have room to give Halladay a contract to keep him. 12M from Myers, 9M from Eaton, 7M from Jenkins. Halladay took a cut to stay in Toronto last contract, but lets assume he goes max money. Judging the Johan, CC contracts, he would get at most 23 a year. I think he’d agree to 5 yrs, 105 million, with a club option for a 6th year at 25 million. That’s a contract we could afford for a guy who sells out every start. Hes a total Philly player to, classy, and most importantly a winner (oh and he’d win the NL Cy Young every year, with the run support he’d have in Philly).
Brett Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
I like Gargano on WIP, but Eskin just fills me up with hatred. I’m throwing a party on the day he stops broadcasting. It’ll be a world shaping event.
Don M Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
“you’ve got to think Drabek, Taylor and Brown could be big contributors in the future. By all means give away one, two if the rest of the package is weak but not two of the top guys and the major league ready players.”

…
we have to remember that this time last year, everyone was ready to hand Carrasco a job in the rotation, Donald was going to take over for Feliz, and Marson was taking Ruiz’s job ..

so while we THINK this next group of prospects will be able to contribute, we really don’t know … but we KNOW what Halladay can do, which is why his value is so high … it all comes down to how good/ how accurate our own talent evaluators are. They were correct to keep Utley, Howard, Hamels, etc.. but Carrasco doesn’t look great anymore.. his value has probably dropped in the past year ..

I wouldn’t want to be in Ruben’s shoes, because there is no right or wrong answer for what he should do right now.. the goal is to win the Championship, and I think Halladay gives us a better chance than any of our prospects do..
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
NJ – Not for nothing, and I’m not a terribly impressive person on the whole, but I do negotiate things as part of my employ. That said, in an arms length transaction, my first offer is ALWAYS for the moon. You don’t need me to tell you how this stuff works. Why are you so surprised that the Jays are asking for something they damn well know they’re not gonna get? Cuz Its makes you look reasonable when you start to come down on what you’ll take. Its all bullshit, of course. Since you’re in the UK, its like me wanting to trade some Rolling Stones for some Beatles. I would offer you Ron Wood and Charlie Watts for John Lennon and Paul McCartney. You would say its preposterous, and you’d be right, and we’d move on. Point being, Riccardi asking for the moon doesn’t mean he doesn’t wanna trade Halladay, he’s waiting for someone to counter. P.S. – can you hook me up with some Spice Girls memorabilia? Its kind of a hobby of mine. Don’t ask.

The Dipsy
christopher Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
610 has some good hosts, gargano is definitely a knowledgeable and entertaining guy to listen to. personally i find missanelli to be a blowhard that is only worth listening to due to the fact he’s the lesser of two evils. he has an irrational bias against victorino and never gives charlie any credit. last season i had to call him on tearing into charlie after that 4 game brewers series where the phils swept! and he was still giving him crap. it’s a shame jody mac isn’t still in that slot.
SDO Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Why do certain people in the media (like Bill Conlin) feel that Taylor should be untouchable? Is he really THAT good? http://www.philly.com/dailynews/columnists/bill_conlin/20090619_Bill_Conlin__Phillies_prospect_Michael_Taylor_a_heavyweight_five-tooler.html
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
We won’t ask, Dipsy….but you have to know that we’re all wondering……
NJ Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Sorry not much of a memorabilia collector-

Appreciate your viewpoint here, mine is quite conservative and I’m not going to say it’s the best strategy I just see so much youth flourishing and the teams that have been true to it on the up and the ones that have built themselves through trades and free agency without care of the farm on the down. I believe Amaro should make every effort to find middle-ground to make a deal for Halladay but I think there’s a point the price is more than anyone else is willing to pay for a reason and if Johan can be had for the deal that was struck with the Twins I think the Phils can come close to that with more munition than the Mets had.

I genuinely think if the Phils are going to repeat it won’t be through complete game pitching duels on either side and I genuinely believe the Phils can be as good if not better in 5 years than they were winning in ‘08 like the Red Sox. Whether it’s Drabek, Carrasco, Knapp- Brown or Taylor I’m convinced there are multiple guys in the system who can perform in the big leagues and transform the team so they can still mount as good a challenge down the road as the team can now.

Just my two cents, I say go at Roy hard but stay true to what’s being built here because if the Mets can land Johan like they did I’m sure the Phils can match it with all those arms stealing attention away from Halladay in the off-season.
Don M Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Charlie Manuel really isn’t the best in-game strategy kinda manager… which is Missinelli’s main problem with him.

He does a great job of managing his players and keeping the clubhouse relaxed.. which I guess worked well. Jimmy Williams was said to be the brains behind the operation in past years.. now he’s gone and new coaches seem to be doing a good job.

I can’t listen to anyone on 610wip anymore because they all think they’re too cool … and couldn’t have cared less about the Phillies before 2007’s postseason.. They are all Eagles and Sixers .. or whatever team is doing good is Gargano’s new favorite.. I know its his job, but the whole “CUZ”, yo cuz, you know it cuz, aww come on cuz ..that gets old … and I dont like listening to Soprano’s episode recaps.. or all these guys that all of a sudden started using Italian-slang words when the Soprano’s was popular. .. or debating what their favorite movie is on a day when the Mets are coming in to play the Phillies, etc..

holla
LH Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
I agree Georgie that no one will sign Halladay until he drops the off season trade clause. I hope it’s a non-Happ deal that’s made.

Nothing is sadder than losing a relative. The remembrance of their past seasons and what it has meant to others is all that we have left. One begins to think about what could have been a better life if one had tried to experience the hours in a day, better swings of the bat, capturing lost catches in the field, and throwing accurate balls to the plate. The last two years I’ve enjoyed the quickness of heart watching the fight between the Mets and Phillies. How does one commemorate such a victim? The past years, once the red pin stripes were declared king of the division, I would place a home made white cross, with Mets spelled out in blue letters, on the front lawn. Now, the once vibrant competitor has fallen on hard times, and life has worn away their faces leaving an empty shell. This year, I will be planting the Mets cross on the lawn at the end of July. My neighbors and family will raise our glasses to a fallen rival and try to stay focus on the long season that no longer contains a willing adversary.
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
It is impossible, simply impossible, to project 5 years out. If it was, I would have sold every piece of stock I had in 2001. Nobody cares around here what this team is like in five years. I do. But not as much as I care about right now. I want Halladay. Would I spooge all over the place to get him? No. Would I give up a little bit more than I wanted to to get him? Yes. Look, it gonna hurt. We all know that. Just like they say: There’s pain you can play with and then there’s injury. I’m wondering NJ, and by the way, what are you doing in the UK? We’re over here in the trenches. What is the farthest YOU, NJ, given all the circumstances, you would go to get Roy if you were Ruben? I’m very interested in your answer. No if this, if that, it all depends on this or that. Just gimme names.

The Dipsy

The Dipsy
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Sorry about the double name post.

The Dipsy
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Double name post is ok, Dipsy…No problem. After all, you’re into the Spice Girls and you used the work spooge….
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
LH – Thats funny. Cheers.

The Dipsy
NJ Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Personally I’d be offering Taylor or Brown with Donald and Carrasco and another arm like a Drew Naylor. If Drabek’s a deal-breaker (when there’s one to me made) then no Brown or Taylor and Carrasco switches to a positional name. If the Jays don’t take it now I think they’ll look harder at it in the off-season when it could get Peavy or Lee or we look to the free agent market and sign Brandon Webb.

I fully appreciate you can’t hang your hat on guys 5 years out but like the Sox I believe you commit to your ability to draft/sign, groom and get guys up to the bigs where some will make a big impact. The Sox are arguably a better team capable of winning now and down the line for sticking to that philosophy.
NJ Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
^forgot to add- I know that offer up top might not be enough but I don’t see any team in the league right now offering anything that exceeds that. I’m happy adding a short-term solution and re-visiting the Halladay scenario in the off-season.
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
“Spooge” is a tremendous word. So underused. It tells me something about the cut of your jib that you appreciate its use. I am awaiting NJ’s response regarding who he could trade for Halladay. You would think he is examining this matter with neither passion or prejudice since he is in the U.K. and not in the sweltering cauldron of Halladay hysteria.

The Dipsy
william Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
whatever package you put together for halladay i would present to arizona for Haren add one more if you need to the guy is 28 and pitching better than Roy. and having him under control for 3-4 years will take the sting out of losing drabek
christopher Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
sometimes charlie makes questionable decisions, but misanelli gives him a hard time just because he’s “uncle chollie” and he thinks he’s dumb. sometimes charlie takes risky but ultimately rewarding gametime decisions, like green lighting on 3-0 counts, which i like. the thing i called mis about was when he pinch hit for utley to force dave sveum’s (?) hand in bringing gagne in if he wanted to play the AB righty/righty. gagne was the only righty left in their depleted bullpen and had been pitching so poorly it was a smart move, even if it took the bat out of utley’s hands. utley had also been struggling bad against lefties at the time. the move paid off, i don’t remember the specifics of how it played out (they didn’t bring gagne in), but it was a big part of the phils winning the game. mis spent the better part of his next show trashing charlie for the movie and calling it “dumb luck” that it paid off, when in reality charlie plain and simple out-managed the guy!
NJ Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Dispy- read above.

Brown or Taylor, Carrasco, Donald and an arm like Naylor. If Drabek has be included then Drabek, Donald, Marson and mid-level pitching prospect.
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
I actually agree with William.

The Dipsy
Geoff Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
The whole Cuz thing definitely is a little lame. Missanelli has come a long way, but he still has bouts with negadelphia-ism that come out once in a while.

The WIP people however mostly seem to be the type of fans that I would not be friends with if I knew them in real life. A little arrogant – too meatheaded and closed-minded. I also think there is a growing divide between the WIP people and the rest of the city’s sports media. WIP continues to promote the Negative Eagles thing year in and year out and most people are tired of that whole thing.

I want to go to the Phillies game and have a good time – I dont care about being all angry about the Eagles and pay an obscene amount of money to go to their ugly stadium (the Linc is MAD ugly – probably the crummiest looking new age stadium Ive ever been to in person). It is a testament to big city boss hogg corruption and a big giant waste of taxpayer money for something thats used only a few dozen times a year. They should have built a smaller, more affordable and fan friendly stadium like the Phililes went with. When I can afford it I will go to the Flyers and enjoy live NHL action – great to watch in person. Id sooner go watch the Philadelphia Union when that starts than go see a Sixers game though.

The bottom line is that the Phillies are the most fan-friendly team in the city. That ballpark is affordable to go to at least a dozen times a year if you dont buy too much of the food and dont buy the beer from the vendors IN the stadium.
Geoff Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
If Haren were available hed be a great choice because he is signed to an affordable contract for years and hes a frontline option. With the looming departure of Brandon Webb I doubt hell be made available though.
NJ Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
If Amaro’s prepared to offer up the 3 top prospects and major league ready ones in one swoop I’d one up Haren and make a run at Grienke. Doubt either team would be intersted right now though.
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Sounds right to me, NJ.

The Dipsy
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
I like Haren better than Greinke. And its not close.

The Dipsy
Chuck P Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
There are two extremes in baseball; big market and small market. Both types have aspirations of winning championships but each must take different routes to get there. With either type, winning is not the driving force. That, of course, would be money and profits). Big market teams make money selling tickets/merchandise… big name players drive revenues. For these teams, it’s quantity over quality… sell as many units as you can as quickly as you can (early in the season). If you have a bigger fan base, you can afford to make mistakes with players (as long as you look like you’re trying to win). Season ticket sales gives those teams a huge advantage; that essentially drives their budget up (they have a good idea of what their revenues will be very early on). Small market teams make money by watching the bottom line. They are forced to keep expenses low, work the system (younger and cheaper) and make money off of the revenue sharing agreements. These types of teams have proven that they can win with minimal payroll but they need to expect to lose and build their teams to make money even when they do lose. I would say that the Phillies are somewhere in between. 75% of all tickets for the entire season were sold before the team took the field… that’s incredible. I was down the shore this weekend and I could not believe how many people were sporting Phillies hats and window stickers and shirts and etc. But this team still has to be careful because the past failures are still waning in the backs of our minds. Toronto is a pretty good example… they were in our shoes at one point (a successful team with decent attendance) but they crippled their chances at staying there with some bad signings and the strike. When a mid-market team tries to buy a championship it rarely works… you have to have the right mix of home-grown talent and big name players.

We have been blessed with home-grown players that have evolved into big name players; keeping those guys around has served this team well and I feel like this is the time to go for it. I agree that we should avoid selling the farm but we should also avoid giving any free-agent a long-term deal that could be potentially crippling; I feel like if we don’t get Halladay, we’ll be talking about 4-5 year deals for guys that aren’t as good as Doc in the offseason. Halladay’s deal is not bad for us (low risk, 1.5 years) Our farm is strong… 2 prospects from our farm is not going to set this franchise back (plus, we’ll definitely get something back when Halladay leaves… which he will). I would like to see us keep Drabek… I would like to see us keep Happ… thankfully, judging by the offers that are out there for Halladay and the fact that we’re expanding our lead, I feel that we don’t need to give them either of those players. If they aren’t willing to do it, that’s on them… third place in the ALE is not a great place to be.

Gotta give Rube some credit… he has played his hand right. He has been patient and has let the other players fold time and time again. The four teams rumored are the Yankees (*ALE), Red Sox (*ALE), Cardinals and Phillies… the Cardinals aren’t in the position that we are in to part with two top 25 prospects like Taylor, Brown and Knapp…

By the way… Halladay would prefer to play for a team that trains in a quiet area in Florida. Let me tell you about this lovely place called Clearwater…
Skeeter Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
According to MLB.com:

Jays agree to trade with Phillies. Phillies get Halladay . Jays get Drabek, Donald, Knapp, Brown
NJ Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
??? can’t find anything to confirm… There’s no way the Phils give Drabek, Brown AND Knapp
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Whos Skeeter? And YES WAY…they would.

The Dipsy
Manny Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
WHAT?
Chuck P Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Liar.
Manny Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
I agree, if they agree on sending our current top 2 prospects plus Donald and Knapp… then Amaro would be smoking something BAD
Manny Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
So I read that the Indians are open to offers for Lee, but they would need to “wow” them… I bet we could put something together that would get him here without giving up Drabek or Taylor
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Interesting breakdown on Haren.. I’d do that, yeah. Greinke….no.

Just heard David Montgomery a few minutes ago saying he doesn’t want to repeat the Ryan Sanberg trade….read into THAT if you will…..

And, Dipsy, yes….this IS a “sweltering cauldron” we have all found ourselves in. Can’t wait for the opportunity to cool off with a celebratory swim…….and that doesn’t necessarily mean landing “The Man.”
NJ Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
If it was for real the news would have broken for real by now. No way the Phils give up 3 of their 4 ‘untouchables’ plus a coveted major leady ready shortstop.
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
^Ryne
Chuck Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
can’t find anything on mlb.com about it.
Manny Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
Someone we’re all forgetting: BRETT MYERS.

From today on bleacherreport.com: “In fact, if Happ can continue to pitch effectively, this year’s rotation could be much better. This is because Brett Myers may be back in the rotation in time for the playoffs. Myers, who had hip surgery in early June, is ahead of schedule and expects to be back this season.”

As of now, Myers could be back sometime in September… and I’m fully confident in his ability to come back throwing fire in the playoffs and be our 4th starter there. If Myers comes back, would we really need Halladay? Of course, this is a big IF, but I believe that team officials are well informed about his current health status and his chances of joining this rotation in October.

I think we can win the NL East with our current starting rotation, but I’m not sure how far we can make it in the playoffs, especially in a short, best-of-5 divisional series.

Trading for a top-tier pitcher is no longer urgent, so let’s not forget all the options we can have down the road.
Geoff Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
I call BS on that package – its not cool to make stuff up like that man.
Chuck P Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
I have not heard that Myers will be back in time for the playoffs… if a well-motivated (pending FA) Brett Myers can make it back in time for the playoffs, that would be a huge shot in the arm for this team but I have a feeling that’s a long shot… his hard work in the offseason will help his cause but he’s only one month removed from his surgery. If he comes back and tries to play 75% and gets knocked around, he’s going to kill his chances at landing a contract.
LH Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Cheers back to you Dipsy
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Forget about Myers. And if you wanna win the World Series then YES, you do need Halladay. Lets call a spade a spade. We all want him. We all want the Phils to get him. Nobody really thinks that the Phils can win THE SERIES with their rotation. I’m alive and rooting for the Phillies now. Screw where the Phils are in five years, where will I be in five years? I might be dead. Make…the….deal.

The Dipsy
Manny Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
Dipsy: umm.. last year we won without Halladay….

Replace Happ with Myers and it’s the same rotation (or even better) that won it all. And the Rays were supposed to have the better pitchers in that series…
Manny Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
And I bet you would’ve said EXACTLY THE SAME THING on July 20th, 2008 (last year): “Nobody really thinks that the Phils can win THE SERIES with their rotation.” And what happened???
NJ Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Sorry Dipsy enjoy the banter with you but I don’t think Halladay at all costs means one World Champion let alone two. A hell of a lot of things need to fall into place to get past the first round of the play-offs and the last decade is littered with teams that got it wrong trying to buy big.

Last year it was a trade for Joe Blanton that won a world championship not CC Sabathia, I’m not saying Halladay doesn’t increase the chances but its about how this team plays not how the rotation stacks up.

I honestly think we can win now with or without Halladay (because the chances are so slim) and I’m damn sure with the right player development we can win in 2 years, 5 years and hopefully longer. The system beats the players.
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
I know that. But I do want Halladay – within reason. The fan in me took over. Manny – Myers was the best pitcher in the NL for the last two months of the season last year. Not gonna happen again. Plug in Happ for Myers and its the same rotation? Uhhhhh….no its not. BECAUSE:

1. Hamels 2009 isn’t Hamels 2008;
2. Happ will not be August-Sep Myers 2008 down the stretch and don’t ask me “why not”.
3. Blanton didn’t lose a game for the Phils in 2008.

The Dipsy
Manny Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
You forgot to read the part where I say “July 2008″, not August not September…

and, if anything, Joe Blanton is BETTER this year than last year
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Wait…so we didn’t catch lightning in the bottle? Our rotation was just “that good”?

The Dipsy
Manny Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Dipsy: I recommend this Happ/Myers article: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/220667-is-ja-happ-the-answer-to-the-philadelphia-phillies-pitching-questions
Pat Gallen Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Hey Dipsy, what cliche?
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
“certain je ne sais quoi”. Unless that’s a favorite of yours also in which case disregard my post.

The Dipsy
Pat Gallen Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Haha, I didnt know that. I felt like it just worked well so I went with it. It’s actually the first time I’ve used it in an article, so feel free to take it back,
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
Thanks Manny. I read it. I don’t wanna quibble with Charlie but I have no freakin’ idea why he would compare JA with Jim Palmer?????? Cuz of the arm speed…uhh…what? Anyway, I mean, I feel you. Happ has been great. I’m rooting for him. Myers was TOM SEAVER, yes, TOM SEAVER down the stretch last year. Crackling fast ball with location (which is usually his problem) and a 12-6 curve. In short, he was flat out sick. J.A. Happ is stealth. He keeps hitters off balance. I like that. His lack of sheer “stuff” also means he’s gotta locate, locate, locate. Which he has been doing. And he better keep doing it because they way he pitches he has a small margin for error. Like Glavine and Pettite. Those guys never lost their control and they won. I hope JA keeps his. If he does he’ll be great. He has been positively Glavine-esqe. His body of work just isn’t large enough to feel comfortable with him going into the post season. And lets face it, weren’t we all waiting for the wheels to come off with Brett last year when he was pitching well? I know I was and happy when they didn’t.

The Dipsy
The Dipsy Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
make that “he didn’t”

The Dipsy
Manny Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
Yea, exactly. I also like that quote by Ibanez where he says that he noted something special about Happ… that his pitches would seem like they were 94-95 mph to the batter… very deceptive.

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