Phillies Nation

120 Responses to “Phils, Pedro in talks?”

1. Kate Says:
   July 13th, 2009 at 9:27 am

   Ugh. Way to throw money away, Phils.

2. Phil Says:
   July 13th, 2009 at 9:34 am

   This will be a good pick up if they also get Halladay. If not then it’s pointless.

3. Manny Says:
   July 13th, 2009 at 9:38 am

   God help us.

4. Maverick Says:
   July 13th, 2009 at 9:41 am

   interesting move… i guess we will see how it plays out…

5. Maverick Says:
   July 13th, 2009 at 9:46 am

   if Phils land Halladay we will have a pretty ok rotation to compliment our bats…

   Halladay
   Hamels
   Happ (if not part of the Halladay trade)
   Blanton
   Moyer
   Pedro

6. jim d Says:
   July 13th, 2009 at 9:52 am

   pedro go away
   i want halladay

7. NJ Says:
   July 13th, 2009 at 10:05 am

   Reports suggest Pedro looks more like he did 2-3 years ago. a non-Phillies scout said “looked very good in recent workouts, with his fastball anywhere from 89-94 mph”. If he has enough life on his fastball to set up his off-speed pitches I’ll take Pedro to be as good as a Randy Johnson has been.

   As for Halladay have said before I don’t see him being traded and found this quote- “I think he’s staying right where he is,” an American League official agreed. “I think [Blue Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi] is just laying the groundwork to make a deal this winter or next year.”

   We all want Halladay sure but I’m looking at Drabek, Happ, Taylor, Brown and a couple of others as guys who gives us just as good if not a better chance to win in 5 years time. If all-stars bought championships then things might be different but time and time again the post-season has been proved to be a crap-shoot. Right now I’ll take Hamels to be better after the break, Happ and Blanton as two very good arms and two incredibly experienced veterans to get the job done.

   Halladay would give us as close to a chance to win 1 out of 5 nights but this teams either capable of winning with near what it has now, or won’t do much damage at all. It’s a team game.

8. Geoff Says:
   July 13th, 2009 at 10:10 am

   I would start thinking about people other than Halladay. This is a distraction. If the Blue Jays will trade him without demanding Michael Taylor, Knapp, Drabek or Happ (since the GENERAL MANAGER has said that those players will not be traded, period, end of discussion) then MAYBE a deal can be reached. Otherwise I dont see anyone getting him. I kind of think unless some team gets desperate and does something extreme that its either the Phillies or nobody. Boston and NY either dont need him (BOS), or dont have the prospects (NY). St Louis doesnt have the money. Texas doesnt have the money. Milwaukee probably doesnt have the money. The Mets dont have the prospects. The White Sox dont have the prospects because Gordon Beckham is not going to be traded.

   I mean who else is a legitimate candidate to match? (crickets….)

   So the Jays are backed into a corner. It would be smarter of them to hang onto him and try to trade other guys.

9. Maverick Says:
   July 13th, 2009 at 10:10 am

   NJ get out of here with your negativity…..and your unnamed “american league officials”

10. Kate Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 10:15 am

    Pedro pitched for the Phillies in SIMULATED GAMES. Heck, even I could pitch well in a simulated game.

11. Geoff Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 10:20 am

    Why would you give up ALL your best prospect (or two of three) for SOMEONE THAT WILL BE HERE FOR A YEAR AND A HALF! If you think the Phillies will sign him to a long-term extension youre smoking crack. They havbe an inflated payroll already. You have to put 2 + 2 together. Theyd be looking for rings out of him until his contract ends then collect on the draft picks. But to do that youre not going to trade away cornerstones of future winning Phillies teams (your best prospects) for a short-term solution. Hallday is great. But you have to exercise restraint, and cool-headed stretegy.

12. Chuck Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 10:20 am

    NJ and Geoff…you have hit the nail on the head with your points on this. As for Happ….I REALLY don’t want him to be traded right now. He has looked too good as of late and I can’t help but think he is poised for a HUGE second half. Right now, he and Blanton are our two most reliable starters (yes….Moyer has done ok….but I still hold my breath every time he takes the mound)

    Pedro?????…….well, I guess he’s worth a shot IF his fastball does indeed hit 94 or so. Could be VERY interesting!!

13. rob5000 Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 10:25 am

    Hey how about we all just shut up and see what happens. Baseball is a business and I’m sure they aren’t just signing Pedro for the hell of it. Considering the Phils decent luck with their more recent signings I see no reason to doubt them at this point.

14. Chuck Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 10:26 am

    Maverick…..how is it that NJ is projecting negativity?

15. NJ Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 10:26 am

    You want the source here it is http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/11948558

    Negativity? What have I said that is so grossly offends you? Beats me why so many people here seem to endlessly criticise anyone that writes anything more than a moronic one line statement.

16. Geoff Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 10:32 am

    If you map it out there is an odd man out here:

    Hamels (locked up to 3 year deal)

    # 2 starter yet to be traded for

    JA Happ (young, cheap, under team control for yrs, not going anywhere)

    Joe Blanton (under team control for two more years with arbitration, FA after 2010 I think, will be staying here until his contract is up)

    Jamie Moyer (old, some good days some bad days, expensive contract ending after 2010)

    Pedro Martinez (one year prorated contract)

    Then behind them, assuming they arent traded (drabek, carrasco, savery, bastardo, lopez, etc)

    Who is the odd man out? I am thinking that at least one of those guys in the minors will be in the rotation next year (Drabek). One will probably be traded for a starter.

    I think Moyer is the odd man out. They could DFA him, trade him, cut him, exile him to the pen, whatever. I dont know that he will be in the playoff rotation.

17. Maverick Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 10:35 am

    Im not criticising your ignorance towards those with ADD by writing novels on the message board. Write as much as you want..

    i’m criticising you for spreading Anti-Halladay propoganda in here.

    Clearlly we all know landing him is a loooooong shot and 95% unlikely to happen but we can still dream and talk about the idea…

18. Pat Gallen Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 10:37 am

    Taken from ESPN.com during the futures game:

    “Philadelphia might be the most motivated suitor, but unlike some other teams mentioned in speculation, the Phillies lack a young major league “sure thing” to serve as the centerpiece of a Halladay deal. Although the Phillies have high regard for pitcher J.A. Happ, he doesn’t fit that description.

    “He’s pretty good,” said an NL scout. “But from the way everybody in Philly talks, you’d think he was the second coming of Steve Carlton.”

    I’d take the second coming of Carlton!

19. Maverick Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 10:39 am

    btw Geoff…are we assuming at this point that Meyers will not be back next year?

20. rob5000 Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 10:42 am

    I guess a 1.000 winning percentage is just pretty good.

21. Geoff Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    I gues we are…he could be resigned for a cheaper base salary with incentives (which would be a shrewd, smart move), but that means someone else would be out of the loop unless the starter they trade for is an impending free agent.

    Thats even more consideration that Moyer is a potential odd man out – and sooner than you think.

22. Chuck Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    Here’s the thing with Pedro…..he HAS to be a better option for us than a healthy Bastardo or Lopez (although Lopez DID look pretty good in his two starts). IF his fastball is what the scouts are saying it is then it makes sense to bring him here. For a one year 3 mil or so deal, it’s worth the gamble….especially if the ability to trade for another pitcher becomes too difficult.

    Geoff…I like your breakdown of the odd man out…..the only thing I would like to add is that Moyer’s fate in the scenario you paint probably depends on how he starts the second half. If he absolutely impresses for his first five starts of the second half and goes into the playoff push absolutely on fire, then I think you have to rethink your analysis. And Moyer’s a smart guy who’s been around a long time….he probably is one step ahead of you and that alone may motivate him.

23. NJ Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    Anti Halladay propaganda… That’s just bollocks. Maverick your just being assholic for the sake of it which I assume is because you don’t like anyone not being like a little puppy rubbing up against your leg.

    I’d love the guy as much as you, am just adding my thoughts added to what I’ve read by sources far more informed than you or I will ever be to open the discussion up. There’s far more to the Halladay and Pedro situations than a one line Beavis and Buttheadesque post, get used to it.

24. christopher Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 10:52 am

    “Pedro pitched for the Phillies in SIMULATED GAMES. Heck, even I could pitch well in a simulated game.”

    no you couldn’t.

    i have no problem with adding pedro. i like what lopez has done, i still have high hopes for bastardo, and i’m still very excited about carrasco… but i have no problem with adding pedro.

25. Geoff Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 10:54 am

    It gives the Phillies more options, which is what I like about the move for Pedro. I am worried about him and Moyer in teh same rotation because it will wear down your bullpen. Thats why I think Moyer is the odd man out once they dio make a trade. You cant have two guys in your rotation who are only 5-6 inning pitchers.

26. Geoff Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:00 am

    Im tired of reading all these reports acting like JA Happ is going to get traded…enough already. They did the same thing with the Flyers and JVR.

27. Maverick Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:07 am

    wow…. Halladay is getting the Main headline on Philly.com

    Looks like the local media is making its voice heard.

28. Steve-o Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:09 am

    I don’t mind the Pedro signing. He’s going to cost roughly $2 Mil, and he will allow us to put Bastardo back in the minors and continue to develop, while also allowing us to keep Carrasco down there. My only concern with Pedro is how deep he can go into games. Earlier this year we saw our bullpen get overworked from starters not being able to go far enough into the games. With Moyer AND Pedro in our rotation, I’d be nervous about that potentially happening again.

29. Gavin Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    I know signing Pedro doesnt preclude the Phils from getting Halladay in a trade, but why sign him if there is a strong chance that you can get Doc?!?!?

    RAJ knows his chances, and the fact that they are going to sign Pedro shows that he believes there is no chance to get Doc (Unless he’s planning on sending Happ to TOR).

    I have gone back and forth on what I think should happen that I’m not sure what I believe anymore, but the window to win world championships is not a big one, and if he signs Pedro, we’re going to have to be comfortable with him until Sept. b/c he aint going anywhere.

    I wonder how much input RAJ is getting from Gillick. I trust Gillicks instincts on these older guys.

30. Rich Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    Guys, you can never have enough starters. Signing Pedro is smart, as long as you scouted him out well first, which we did. With the exception of Blanton and Happ, we have problems right now. Signing Pedro means we can probably upgrade on #5. Now, if we can get Halladay for any kind of reasonable price (By reasonable here, I’m willing to give a Michael Taylor with a Carrasco and one or two more prospects of the ilk of a Flande and Donald level), now we have bumped everyone down a spot, and Jamie is bound to be a spot starter the rest of the way. Such is life in baseball, and while we all love Jamie Moyer, we knew this day was coming. Odds are we will still have to deal with an injury of some kind anyway, and this will all work itself out.

31. Chuck Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    I really can’t see Happ being traded. And why would you want to anyway? To get Halladay up when you probably only have him (Halladay) through next year and to give other stud prospects along with him?? I don’t think so. I just doesn’t make sense at this point.

32. Jeff Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:35 am

    Here is the BOTTOM line. If the Phillies do trade for Halliday then Happ will be in the deal. The Bluejays are going to get alot. Happ might mean Drabek stays and Taylor goes. I make the deal. This is a once in a lifetime trade. This player does not come along everyday. No national league team has won back to back since the 70s. Drabek if in the deal is a prospect. This is for the best pitcher in baseball. Makes us favorites. I also say yes to Pedro. Better then Bastardo and Lopez. If his fastball is moving, he is edgy and could give us a jolt. Who cares about the money, its not mine. They make plenty from us going to the games, Jerseys, Hot Dogs, beers, etc. They make plenty and can afford a low risk move. Hamels, Halliday, Blanton, Moyer, Pedro. I would take that in a heartbeat. Our fifth is a hall a famer and our second.

33. The Dipsy Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:42 am

    I think the Phils signing Pedro is a great idea. I don’t think it has anything to do with a Halladay deal. If I were Reuben, I would say “If the Blue Jays are interested in trading for some of our young talent, then of course I’ll listen.” If Ricciardi calls on the 31st he does. If he doesn’t he wasn’t that serious in the first place. RE: Pedro. Three million dollars to give Pedro a tryout is no gamble. The Phils are making money hand over fist. Seriously, in the world of MLB, who really cares about three mill? If he doesn’t pan out as a starter you can put him the pen or cut him. Personally, I think he might be good in the pen because I don’t think he can go 7 anymore. AND, I have no empirical data whatsoever to back up that opinion. Wow, Happ sure does look good.

    The Dipsy

34. Chuck Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:45 am

    Rich….there’s NO WAY the Jays give up Halladay for Taylor, Carrasco, Flande and Donald. It’s just not enough incentive for them. Great deal for us, but it won’t happen. Happ OR Drabek will have to be in the deal and I just don’t see it happening.

35. Maverick Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:50 am

    btw…..the more i look at the state of the Phillies rotation… grabbing Pedro is a smart move.

    BeyondHamels, Blanton, Happ we got nothing….

    MOYER is currently the WORST starter in baseball accroding to ESPN.

    He ranks 92 out of 92. Dead last in ERA for pitchers with x amt of innings.

36. Geoff Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:50 am

    My point is who cares if this is a once in a lifetime trade. So was the Eric Lindros trade. The Lindros trade destroyed the Flyers franchise allowing the Nordiques/Avalache to win 2 Stanley Cups and be a perennial contender during their run. The Flyers had Lindros, who was enough to get them to the finals once, but he didnt have the pieces around him to win because of that trade.

    I really think its a horrible idea to give up ALL of that for one guy. I think a move like that is PRIME to backfire if you give up guys liek Happ or Drabek or Taylor. Say you give up all of that and Hallladay gets injured and misses the season. Then youre SCREWED. Then you pissed away your future for an injured guy whos over 30 and makes 15M a year. Maybe he doesnt become Type A because of that injury.

    You have to think about those things. Giving up prospects WILL happen for a starter. Maybe even some good ones. But giving up a young pitcher under team control for YEARS along with your BEST prospects is COMPLETELY retarded. Any GM that does that should be fired.

    Lets get this clear. The Phillies DO NOT NEED Roy Halladay. It would be nice to have him. They need another starting pitcher who logs innings. That DOESNT meant it has to be him. There are other people who can do that at a lower price if the price for him is too high. Now, this is exactly the kind of stupid trade a Philadelphia team would make in years past.

    But this isnt years past. This is a championship team. If the price is too high, they wont cave in. They wont make this trade. They are NOT desperate. This is not a desperate team, not a desperate organization, not a desperate fan base by in large. So STOP acting desperate. The Blue Jays are desperate. THEY have to drump salary, not the Phillies. The Blue Jays are in salary dump mode, which means they cant get away with asking for too much in a trade because EVERY team knows they are trying to do that. Thats why I cant see him being moved for the price they are demanding. They will have to break down and lower expectations or else he wont be traded.

37. psujoe Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    I can’t see the Phils signing Halladay to a big time extension. The payroll does go down about 5 million, but that’s not counting arbitration increases or new contracts to replace Eyres, Park, etc. I can’t imagine the Phils takign their payroll in to the 130’s for an extended period of time.

38. Chuck Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    I saw Happ in Spring Training and I said then that putting him in the pen and making Chan Ho Park the 5th starter was a mistake. He looked GREAT in Florida. Oh well, I guess it worked itself out for both of them and now Happ’s no 5th starter…..he’s more like a #3 at this point. That’s why if I can’t see him being part of this trade. He’s really starting to establish himself, he’s young, and the Phils have control of him longer than they would with Halladay (unless they sign him to a 4yr/100 mil contract…which is NUTS!!)

39. Geoff Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:54 am

    Thats why Pedro is replacing Moyer in my eyes. Moyer is out when they make their big trade.

    Again, if youre demanding all that for ONE GUY. YOu know what? seya! Forget about it, move on, well find another team who is going to be realistic. Ruben is NOT desperate. Dont count him out yet.

40. Maverick Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 11:54 am

    Halladay = higher likelyhood of repeating as WFC’s this year and next.

    Your Lindros comparison is flawed b/c Phils have the pieces around Halladay. Its not like we are trading Howard or Utley to get him.

41. Geoff Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    Because they ahvent done that in this regime. Its not their style. They will not do that if it means sacrificing too much in the future. It really doesnt make sense to meet Torontos price because they have noone to trade with. Toronto has NO leverage at all. They should just hold onto him.

42. NJ Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    Adding Halladay hardly guarantees a championship this year or next, if it did the Yankees and Mets would have taken the majority of titles this decade. By all means deal Carrasco, Donald, Marson to try and get the guy but Toronto seems to be laying the groundwork to deal him in the off-season or next deadline not now.

    The players in the system should guarantee the Phils chance to win every year for the next decade unless we have that little faith in our system, coaching infrastructure and organisation as a whole.

    If Halladay meant another title the Phils would have made the deal last week but unfortunately it doesn’t. Smart management wins championships.

43. mick Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    Pedro feels the best he has felt in a long time because he has not had to pitch–on paper i see a disaster here–after 20 innings he goes on the DL and the Phils are out 4 million—However, if he gives them 8-10 quality starts the front office looks brilliant–nothing ventured nothing gained–what is 4 million

44. Chuck Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    There’s NO WAY the Phils sign Halladay to what would be about $100 mil over 4 years. And you know what??……….I would hope that they wouldn’t. It makes absolutely NO SENSE to the future overall success of this team. It would mean less money for other players like Howard, Utley, etc….players that play every day, not 1 in 5.

45. The Dipsy Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    NJ – Good point. If I’m not mistaken havent the Jay targeted 2B and C as need positions? If so, than wouldn’t it necessarily make Marson or Ruiz and Donald parts of a Halladay deal? And then I guess a couple of pitchers. Personally, I wouldn’t offer them anymore than Carrasco, Donald, Marson. Geoff is right that the Jays have no leverage. But query: If we were to take back Wells in the deal, and thats a huge “IF”, and I know we’d be swallowing a lot of money, would the Jays make us actually give up less? Its just a question.

    The Dipsy

46. Chuck Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    The more I think about it , signing Pedro make a whole lot of sense. Let’s face it….

    1)Roy Halladay is NOT coming here.

    2)Cole Hamels is NOT the same pitcher he was last year.

    3)Brett Myers is done.

    4) Jamie Moyer is on the serious downside of his career (Geoff seems to think he’s done before the season’s over….not sure I want to rush to that judgement but the point is it’s almost over for him).

    5)Bastado and Lopez probably aren’t the answer.

    So that leaves us with two very good starters right now….Happ and Blanton. Taking a 3 million dollar chance on Pedro Martinez is a smart gamble.

47. Kris Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    Don’t trade Happ, we would not be in 1st if not for him. He’s the only starter that doesn’t have a loss. Too valuable to lose especially when Hamels seems to forgotten how to pitch well.

48. psujoe Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    Chuck, A Pedro signing would be great. It’s going to cost the Phils next to nothing. If it doesn’t work out the Phils will lose less than a million. Much more upsiethan trading prospects for a guy like Meche who would eat up 11 million.

49. Chuck Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    Dipsy…good question……I would think that IF we agreed to take Wells then giving up less would be the answer. But…where do you put Wells? Seriously…..do you even mess with this outfield right now?

50. The Dipsy Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    Honestly Chuck, I would just put him on the bench or try to lay him off on another team and eat part of his salary. Sounds so easy doesn’t it? He’s got a funky salary which calls for about 20m a year in 2011, 12, 13…I THINK. But for this year and next he is pretty cheap. You just know the Jays wanna dump that. Its a real pipe dream that any team would ever do that. Including us. But whaddaya do when Ricciardi calls you and says “Roy and Wells for Marson, Donald, and Flande?”

    The Dipsy

51. psujoe Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    No way do we want to take on an extra $100 contract.

    I’d really hate to trade Drabek, but if we did I’d want Downs in the deal.

52. psujoe Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    cough, $100 million dollar contract.

53. bretts Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    I personally think that we should do whatever it takes to get Halladay even if that means Drabek and Taylor and whoever else. The Phillies only have a certain amount of time to win another world series. If we say dont trade the prospects cause in 5 years they are going to be good. In 5 years who knows how the rest of the team is doing Utley Howard, Rollins , Werth and Vic are all going to be in their mid 30’s and who knows if they will even be in Philly anymore. And the prospects might not even make it to the big leagues. Remember Drabek has already had major arm surgery. My opinion is to play for the now not the future. Get Pedro and Halladay and lets win another world series. this year. Just my opinion.

54. psujoe Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    The Dipsy,

    But whaddaya do when Ricciardi calls you and says “Roy and Wells for Marson, Donald, and Flande?”

    I tell them to throw in Bautista and Downs and no more moves are needed, LOL.

55. Chuck Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    You would have to consider the deal, I suppose….but….does it make sense to take on the burden of that contract starting in 2011? What if we have no use for him and have to dump the burden on some other team? Interesting idea, however. If it’s just that easy then you almost have to pull the trigger. Losing Marson open up the catcher’s position in, say, 2011….but I suppose you could use Wells to land a frontline catcher…that’s if another team is then willing to take on salary.

56. Chuck Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    bretts….you have to play for now AND for the future. It’s ridiculous to gut the farm system and throw the Jays anybody and everybody for this guy. You do that and there will be NO championships for at least the next decade….and there’s no guarantee that they win this year, either.

57. Bruce Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    It struck me funny how a few posters here continuously criticized certain starters when the Phillies rotation as a whole were the primary reason for the great success of a 9-1 homestand.

    Pedro Martinez for $2-3 million is obviously dirt cheap and with his experience and guile can fit into the least used 5th spot of the rotation or as a valuable asset in the bullpen.

    And as for Halliday, I’ll quote one poster (Geoff)..”Why would you give up ALL your best prospects (or two of three) for SOMEONE THAT WILL BE HERE FOR A YEAR AND A HALF! If you think the Phillies will sign him to a long-term extension youre smoking crack.” (chuckles) That is close to my opinion. Amaro himself stated that there is a limit to the Phillies all time high payroll of $130 million plus. $23 million for 1.5 years plus several top prospects for a rental pitcher goes against sound judgment.

    My feeling is Toronto is just looking at offers to get a feel of what is available for the off season and will cut bait on Halliday prior to end of this month.

58. The Dipsy Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    Hey…and as they used to say in Hollywood, Wells is “box office poison” I don’t think any team would touch him with a ten foot pole. Think about Sam Dalembert and the Sixers and then times it by 10. Perhaps, just perhaps, getting rid of Wells is more important to the Jays than getting fair value for Halladay. Just spitballing here.

    The Dipsy

59. bretts Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    You are right Chuck. But i know that the Blue Jays like Donald and Marson and would definitly be willing to put Carrasco and maybe one more prospect in there for Halladay. Like everyone else i would like to keep Drabek, I hear he is an absolute stud. I dont think that would be considered gutting the system. But either way it is going to be exciting to see what the Phillies do. I am not used to hearing that the phillies are going after one of the best pitchers/ players in baseball. Lol

60. Chuck Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

    Roy Halladay is gonna be on the national stage tomorrow night and, the Phillies need to hope for him to suck big big time. Why? All of a sudden the rose is slightly off the bloom and his value is slightly less perhaps than it is now. I know it’s just an ASG and he’ll throw 3 innings tops…but….rocking him hard will all of a sudden make these negotiations look a bit different. Not saying that we or anybody else will be able to steal him…but…he may not thought of as the second coming of Steve Carlton or whoever else you can think of.

61. joedad Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    Pedro is medium reward, low risk. We don’t have a #5 starter. In fact, we don’t have a #4 starter either since Moyer is the worst pitcher in the league. Somebody will become available before the trade deadline that we can snatch up for medium prospects that could help like Blanton helped last year. I don’t think we need Halladay, at least not for the price that is rumored. When the arm is added, I’m not sure Moyer sticks around other than as a pitching coach or mop up guy.

62. The Dipsy Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    Chuck, respectfully, if he gets bombed tomorrow night it wouldn’t change my opinion of him one way or another. He’s got a 10 year body of work to back him up. Of course if I had to choose I hope he gets shallacked.

    The Dipsy

63. Chuck Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    No I understand Dipsy…..just would be nice to see the guy stink it up a bit to quiet everybody down a little. Of course he has his history to back him up. I’m just throwin darts, that’s all.

64. JeffS Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    From cbssports.com:

    Ricciardi won’t say which teams he has talked to, but he did set out some of the parameters.

    “We’re not going to move Roy Halladay for the equivalent of two draft picks,” he said. “We asked a couple of teams about a certain player, and when they said no, we moved on.

    “We don’t want to hear that somebody’s not available, and we don’t want to hear that they can’t handle the money.”

    Sounds like: (1) this guy is bargaining as if he has great leverage (which I don’t think is the case), and (2) the Phils and Mets both took their best prospects off the table, and the Cubs and Dodgers can’t fork over the $$ needed to get the no trade waived and keep him, and this has Ricciardi upset.

65. Geoff Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    I dont want him to stink it up tomorrow night. So he pitches poorly, then gets traded from a comfortable environment to one with massive expectations. Thats priming him to come here and fail and suck. YOu want him on fire, which confidence brimming.

    Ricciardi has no leverage at all and all the GMs know it. But only a few teams have a show at all of getting him. The Phillies ($, prospects)and the Rangers (prospects, maybe the money) are the only two teams with a semi-decent chance. Other than that they are no real options OR need in places where there is a fit.

    Hes backed into a corner and he doesnt like it. Thats all that is.

66. Manny Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    Well said, Geoff @ 11:50

67. psujoe Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    Randy Miller said his sources have told him the Phillies can’t afford what’s left on Hallday’s 2009 contract. talk about ridiculous. Let’s move on guys.

68. william Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    mlbtr has halladay saying he wants to win now as well as ouotes from werth and howard they also want to when now and basicly say(without making the FO look bad) they want roy here and if you have to trade whoever they should do it.

69. william Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    thats win now not when now

70. Chuck Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    Geoff, you talk as if he’s coming here next week. That’s not gonna happen. I hear what you’re saying about the confidence and all but I don’t think his confidence is gonna change if he sucks tomorrow or not. All I was saying is that if he pitches poorly then we and everybody else has something else to talk about……the fact that he’s human and isn’t worth (nobody is) all the prospects that evryybody seems to want to throw at the Blue Jays just to get this guy.

    More importantly about tomorrow night is the National League winning this thing so that if the Phillies get to the WS then they have home field.

71. NJ Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    Personally I don’t think Riccardi is in a corner, I just think he has little to no intention of dealing Halladay in the next couple of weeks. He has two more windows to deal the guy and the priority for him is getting Wells and/or Rios where he is backed into a corner with a poor hand.

    Riccardi has his pick of suitors and is probably helped by the fact virtually no chance of there’s re-signing Halladay so it’ll be down to who has the best rental package when Riccardi decides to make a deal. If he’s able to move Wells or Rios don’t discount the possibility of the Jays taking a last shot at locking Halladay up.

72. Geoff Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    I agree. I predict that Roy Halladay will not be traded. And if he is, that team will overpay and it will backfire on them. Even if the Phillies had to face him in the postseason I am fairly conifcent that this lineup, when on its game, can get to anybody even if its for only 3 runs.

    They still need a beast up front, but it does NOT have to be halladay. The Phillies said weeks ago that theyd prefer to trade for someone younger and under team control for a few years.

73. NJ Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    ^…getting >rid of< Wells and/or Rios

74. The Dipsy Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    What’s J.P. throwing a little hissy fit? Looks like it might be a stare down until 11:59 p.m. July 31 or is that 30? I hope Ruben didn’t tell him that Chase or Ryan weren’t available…cuz that would have made him upset. This guy is gonna get fired in the off season anyway. I bet the name of the guy that we’ll end up trading for hasn’t even been uttered yet. Can we all work from the premise that we can’t go into the playoffs trotting out Cole, Blanton and Happ?

    The Dipsy

75. rob5000 Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    Dipsy, I hear you. But if not Halladay then who? I’m just not confident at all that the Phillies can pick up what they need in a post deadline claim. In that case, I really believe they are in a more competitive market for a higher tier starter. I’m just not too sure that trade market is for Halladay, but I can’t figure who it might be. A trade is going to happen, and the way the Phillies FO works, they’ll keep it a secret. They’re good at that.

76. The Dipsy Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    Its starting to feel real Gil Mechey around the Dipsy household.

    The Dipsy

77. Gavin Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    Just a quick pause here.

    Isnt it nice to be in the conversation that the Phils could be getting Roy Halladay, whether they do or not? For the first time in maybe forever we have the $$$ and the prospects to get Roy Halladay. We normally have to sit on the sideline and watch everyone else haggle over these guys and we have to settle for Kyle Lohse.

    Anyway, the future is bright. If we get him thats awesome . If we dont we have some of the top prospects in the game close to the bigs. I’m a bigass pessimist, but I like where we are.

78. Griffin Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    As far as Pedro is concerned, here is a snippet from Baseball Prospectus:

    “Pedro’s projection pegs him as virtually equivalent to what the Phillies could have expected from the likes of Rodrigo Lopez, Kyle Kendrick and a number of other internal options. However, if he is truly capable of hitting 91-93 mph with the heater as recent reports indicate, he carries much more upside than the revolving door of fifth starters currently employed by the defending champs.”

    It’s a low risk maneuver and has nothing to do with whether or not Halladay is coming here.

79. psujoe Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 3:48 pm

    Meche isn’t really an upgrade to the playoff roster.

80. Gavin Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    I’m curious as to what Pedro’s timeline would be before he would pitch for the big club. The guy hasnt pitched since March!!!!! Wouldnt you guess a 3 start minimum in the minors. Thats 15 days from lets say Thursday the 16th, so the Phils wouldnt even have him until guess when……..July 31st.

81. Griffin Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    Meche has 2 years, $24 million left on his deal after this season. Halladay has a one year $15.75 deal for next year.

    Value wise, it isn’t even close. Why pay $12 mil for Meche, when you can pay $15.75 for Halladay?

    Give up the prospects to Toronto and Halladay will be the greatest Phillie pitcher since Steve Carlton.

82. The Dipsy Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    Its STILL feeling Gil Mechey. I think Pedro has been playing hasn’t he? Somewhat at least.

    The Dipsy

83. psujoe Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    There erally isn’t anything out there on teams that are sellers at this point. Pittsburg won’t trade Duke, Cleveland probably going to keep Lee. Halladay should let his management know he’s not letting them out of the no trade clause if he’s not traded before the deadline. That would get the ball moving.

84. Dan C Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    Phils have no history of obtaining a premiere impact player at the deadline, why would they start now? Halladay won’t be coming here. The Phils are too much in love with their farm system. Martinez will be an experiment, and if he doesn’t workout, they’ll go for a Joe Blanton type pitcher in August through the waiver wire.

85. Griffin Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:07 pm

    I agree that I don’t think Halladay will be coming here, but it is fun to dream….

86. william Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:12 pm

    even the players want this trade to go thru they all want to win now no one can predict the future but halladay is a much more sure thing than any prospects we current have plus drabeck has had tommy john surgery already and what he is 21 ? just how long do you think that arm will last? anyway these prospects will be in the A.L. it’s not like were going to be facing them very often even if they do pan out and thats a big IF players play this game to win championships and roy gives us the best chance to win now!! giving up 2-3 top prospects will not destroy this teams ability to win in the future

87. Pat Gallen Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:18 pm

    With this talk that Pedro is coming to town and likely to sign a contract for less than $2 million, and the Phillies saying that money is now the issue with Halladay, how does that make you guys feel?

    If they are willing to spend some of the money that could go towards Halladay on Pedro, then that must show where their heads are. They clearly do not think they can get Halladay, or just arent willing to go for what Toronto wants.

88. CZ Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:20 pm

    I really think that the only way this deal goes down is if Happ in included in the deal. That of course requires two things…the Phillies being willing to trade him and the Blue Jays actually wanting him. I’m sure that CG shutout in Toronto is fresh in their minds. I know its hard to imagine dealing basically your best starter of late but in my mind Happ has been piptching way over his head. I think he’s a very solid middle rotation guy but to me its more important to keep Drabek in this system. If we can turn a monster first half from an overacheiving guy like Happ into Halladay I think that’s a major win for the Phillies.

89. Griffin Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:22 pm

    I don’t think Pedro has anything to do with Halladay. They have never said that adding Halladay is impossible because of money.

    The Phillies won’t be able to re-sign Halladay for over $100 million but not because they gave Pedro $1.9 million.

90. Geoff Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:27 pm

    But those big mega trade deadline trade ALMOST never work out. Especially not in Philadelphia. Im ok with passing on Halladay. Thats the big distraction trade of this season. Last years was Sabathia. Get someone whos very good. It doesnt have to be some big hyped guy. Just a good guy that logs innings and is of frontline quality.

    That wont be cheap either, but it would be more realistic than the Halladay situation. He wont be traded at all. If he is it wont be for as much as they think theyre going to get. Kyle Drabek is going to be on this team next season and for many years to come. SSo is Ja Happ. Lets be realistic here and not P!$$ away our best prospects for ONE FREAKING GUY. ONE GUY. In a team sport.

91. Griffin Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:32 pm

    I think Johan Santana is working out just fine for the Mets. Dan Haren has been great for Arizona. Even though Tim Hudson got injured, the prospects the Braves gave up for him (Dan Meyer, etc.) never panned out, and let us not forget the Curt Schilling deal. I think we would all agree that those prospects didn’t work out.

92. Geoff Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    Santana was in teh offseason. So was Dan Haren.

93. Geoff Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:35 pm

    Im NOT saying big trades dont work. Im saying these hastily conceived deadline deals arent always the best idea.

94. Griffin Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:35 pm

    Ok, so if the Phillies trade prospects for Halladay in the offseason, then it’s a good deal?

95. Geoff Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    Not necessarily. This thing REEKS of backfire bad karma hex. I would stay away from it. They dont really want to trade him, theyre just hoping some DESPERATE team coughs up their whole farm for him so they can sucker them out of their best young talent.

    NObodys going to bite on that. It aint happening. The Phillies are NOT that desperate.

96. Griffin Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:38 pm

    The problem I have with not wanting to part with these prospects is that they’re just a year ago, most Phillies fans had never heard of these guys and now they’re “untouchable” for Roy Halladay?

    I mean, it’s Roy freaking Halladay. Kyle Drabek looks good now but he’s coming off Tommy John surgery and is no sure thing to stay healthy. Michael Taylor is tearing it up at AA, but there are concerns about how his power is going to translate in the big leagues.

    I’d rather trade more for a proven stud like Halladay, then go half-assed and pick up another Joe Blanton.

97. Pat Gallen Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    Griffin, a report from Randy Miller of phillyburbs.com said that a source of his told him the deal partly hinges on the $5 mil, or so, he is owed for the rest of this season. He said the Phils do not want to pay it.

98. Griffin Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    With a starter’s ERA over 5.00, the Phillies should be desperate.

99. Griffin Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 4:44 pm

    Pat Gallen, I hadn’t heard that. Hopefully that’s just posturing. Considering how much dead money the Phillies have on the books (Eaton, Jenkins, Thome), that’s a bit disappointing.

100. Geoff Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 4:47 pm

     But tahts the trap. Joe Blanton was the single best deadline deal in MLB last year of all the starting pitchers available. HE was still pitching in October and helped win a WS.

     Thats why you have scouts to project where your prospects will end up in the future as a player. This is the SAME thing the Flyers and Sixers always used to do. Give up your future for a veteran star who is awesome for a while then gets injured or sucks and flames out. The Flyers just did it again (though I like Chris Pronger now the Flyers are stuck with all that money and no cap room AGAIN).

     The Phillies have never really dont that and unless you can get the deal YOU want (from Amaros perspective) then you dont make the move.

101. Chuck Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 4:50 pm

     I like Geoff’s thinking here. This has the potential of being a big mistake…FOR MANY YEARS TO COME!!!

     Someone said earlier in the thread about having to “settle for Kyle Lohse.” What’s so bad about that?? He had a huge impact in 2007 in us getting into the playoffs. I wouldn’t mind that kind of guy…a Lohse-type or a Blanton-type coming here……and us NOT giving up guys like Happ and Drabek. Just my opinion.

102. karen Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 4:50 pm

     Happ has the best record right now and has been consistent and he shows the ability to work on his pitches to improve……If Philly choses to get rid of that in favor of pedro and halladay…that is there problem. I value the minor league system and bringing up your own guys…..happ is an amazing pitcher and whatever team he is on, is my team.

103. Chuck Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

     Exactly, Geoff…and look at what Blanton has done lately. Griffin, if that’s your idea of a “half-assed” move….then I’ll do half-assed moves all the time.

104. Geoff Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 4:56 pm

     Dont get me wrong. If you can get him for a price we’re all ok with. Then thats ok. But dont go BLOWING all your top prospects. Thats just plain stupid.

105. Geoff Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 4:56 pm

     They accurately projected that Blanton would breakout and become more than a back-end starter. He has been diesel lately.

106. Chuck Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 5:00 pm

     Blanton’s a stud right now.. On fire. When we get to the playoffs, I predict that he comes up absolutely HUGE for us. But again….that was a half-assed move, I guess. Geez!!

107. Jeff Dowder Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 5:02 pm

     The best move Ed Wade ever made was NOT trading Utley & Madson to Oakland for Tim Hudson (when the entire city was crying out for him to make a big move). Just saying.

108. Gavin Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 5:17 pm

     ARI wanted Utley and Hamels for Schilling…..

     I bet that Halladay can be had for less than we think. We all assume that the Jays get Amaro’s first born here, but in reality, most of these trades center around a few prospects with ONE OF THEM being an “A+” player…..or……5 prospects with alot of “B+” players on it. The Phils could pull off the latter IMO and we’ll be extactic.

     No you dont trade Carrasco/Happ/Drabek/Taylor in the same deal. If that truely is waht JP wants then it aint gonna happen.

     Last year it took Cardenas (B+) and Outman (B+) to get Blanton.

109. Griffin Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 5:25 pm

     Before we all go crazy about Joe Blanton, can we remember that he has a 4.44 ERA at the all-star break? I know he’s been good of late and he was definitely an upgrade over Eaton, but let’s not compare him to Roy Halladay, who would have a sub 3 ERA in the NL.

110. Griffin Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 5:35 pm

     I’m not advocating trading Happ, Drabek, Taylor/Brown plus lesser prospects. But I wouldn’t be close-minded about parting with some of those guys.

111. Griffin Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 5:37 pm

     I just read this on ESPN, maybe J.P. is crazy….

     “We reported earlier that several teams have balked at the high price the Jays are reportedly asking for Roy Halladay. ESPN Insider’s Keith Law offer some more.

     A scout with a club interested in Halladay said that Toronto wants “three 60’s” for the pitcher. In scouting parlance, that’s three prospects that project to be grade 60 players in the majors, or very high level talents. According to Law, that would preclude the Phillies, but it might preclude everyone. Teams hate giving up any prospects who project as 60’s or better, much less several of them. Many simply don’t have that kind of value in their systems.

     As Buster Olney noted earlier today, no offer has yet come close.”

112. Manny Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 5:38 pm

     The more I think about this whole Halladay deal, the less I like it. When in doubt, I remind myself the way the Phillies built the current WFC team… Believe in the farm system!!

113. Chuck Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 6:08 pm

     Griffin….come on…NO ONE here is comparing Joe Blanton to Roy Halladay. What we are saying is that he has emerged as an extremely effective pitcher and a guy that has the ability to do HUGE things in the playoffs. I really think he has that bulldog menatlity that is so important in games like that. Is he Roy Halladay?? Of course not. But for a “half-assed” move that you spoke of earlier, I think it was brilliant.

114. Griffin Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 6:16 pm

     Chuck, I agree and I didn’t meant to call Joe Blanton “half-assed”. He has been better than I thought he would be.

     What I meant to say was that the Phillies have a chance to land a superstar and I hope they go that route rather than going after a Doug Davis or Jarrod Washburn.

     As long as Blanton gives the Phils a sub 4.50 ERA, he’s doing his job and in the most important game of his life, he came up huge. So you’re right about Blanton, but can’t I be greedy and want Halladay?

115. Chuck Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 6:27 pm

     Of course you can be greedy…and I want Halladay too….but not at some astronomical cost.

     I’ll put it plainly….I would sacrifice a repeat THIS year by not getting Halladay if it meant having MULTIPLE titles 2 or 3 years from now by keeping key members of the system (like Drabek for example). I’m not saying that we CAN’T win this year without Halladay and that it’s guaranteed that we win several titles in a few years with our new nucleus of guys. What I’m saying is that giving up too much for ONE GUY may be a mistake.

     Just my opinion.

116. Griffin Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 6:53 pm

     Chuck, I think the big question (for me at least) is are these prospects in the minors good enough to sustain a prolonged playoff push after Howard and Hamels and Rollins are gone? If the answer is “Yes” then I agree that the Phillies should stay put and not mortgage the future. If these prospects are good, but not good enough to make the Phillies contenders without Howard and co., then I say part with them for a title run in the next two years and then go through a year or two of mediocrity while rebuilding the depleted farm system.

     There is no definitive answer and I’m truly not sure what to do. I selfishly want Halladay if he’s truly available, but at what cost?

117. william Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 6:54 pm

     is our farm system so weak and our core players that bad that giving up 2-3 top prospects will ruin this team for years to come ??!!! WIN and WIN now i’m sure this team will survive the potental loss of talent that everyone seems to feel this team can not live without

118. The Dipsy Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 7:07 pm

     Do you agree with this premise: Getting Roy Halladay guarantees you a chance to win the WS? If you do then you should back the Phillies decision to trade for him. I said “their decision to trade for him” not “what gets traded”

     If you agree with the premise then the question becomes the price. If the Blue Jays will trade him here and Halladay wants to come here and the Phillies want him here then you ask that question. If you’re Ruben Amaro, unless Halladay is holding the Blue Jays hostage by telling them he wants to go, and now, you know the Phillies are gonna get gouged in the deal. Getting gouged is inherent in these kinds of deals. Yes, parting with good prospects is gonna hurt. BUT, TO ME, if we can walk away with Halladay and we can all say something like ‘Damn, it hurt giving up those guys’ as opposed to ‘Damn, we just mortgaged our entire effin future for this guy’ then we should make the trade. Now those are a lot of preconditions that have to be met but its not unrealistic. I will assume that Halladay will be great. I will also assume that one, or two, of the prospects we give up will pan out.

     The Dipsy

119. The Dipsy Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 7:09 pm

     Who’s with me? (picture John Belushi in “Animal House”)

     The Dipsy

120. Griffin Says:
     July 13th, 2009 at 8:41 pm

     “Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?”

     I am with The Dipsy!!!

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