The Pros and Cons of Pedro Martinez

Posted by Brian Michael, Fri, July 10, 2009 08:15 AM

This analysis of Pedro-watch is provided by new contributor Pat Gallen.

Pedro MartinezYes, he is a future Hall-of-Famer.  Yes, he has over 3,000 career strikeouts, over 200 wins, and a winning percentage north .684.  Yes, his mantle is decorated with three Cy Young Awards and a World Series Trophy.

No, he is not the same pitcher he once was.  No, he does not have the same heat on his fastball.  No, he is no longer the ace of a rotation.

Pedro Martinez could be joining the Philadelphia Phillies after scouts liked what they saw from him during a simulated game in the Dominican Republic. He will pitch again today for the suits, wherein a decision will be made. Martinez would ink a one-year deal if the Phils determine he is the right fit.

As one of the most dominating starting pitchers ever, Martinez struggled during his final few seasons in New York, but has been working to get himself back.  During his 17-year career, Pedro has amassed 214 wins against only 99 losses, with a cumulative ERA of 2.91.  His name is littered among the record books.  Martinez has led the league in ERA five times, win percentage three times, strikeouts three times and twelve times he won double-digit games in a season.

But it’s clear he is no longer that guy.  The Phillies are not looking for that guy – they are searching for an answer at the back of the rotation.  In their quest for a dependable fifth starter, the Phils have used Chan Ho Park, Rodrigo Lopez, Antonio Bastardo, and Andrew Carpenter.  Park was bounced from the rotation, Carpenter was a spot starter, and Bastardo and Lopez looked decent until injuries knocked them out.

It’s a signing that has many levels to it.  Pedro plugs a hole, but how well can he seal it?  Let’s look at the positives, and negatives, of taking on 37-year old Pedro Martinez:

PROS:

  • One-year, prorated contract doesn’t cost the Phils much.
  • If he is healthy, Martinez is a veteran that clearly knows how to win.
  • Think Kris Benson: If he doesn’t work out, it was nice knowing you.
  • His baseball IQ is through the roof – his presence can only help the rest of the staff.
  • Pedro is a jovial guy.  He would fit in well with this loose bunch of characters.
  • Was excellent in his short stint for the Dominican in the World Baseball Classic.

CONS:

  • He is 37-years old, and well past his prime.
  • Over the past few seasons, Pedro has been injury prone.
  • Is he better than the likes of Rodrigo Lopez, Carlos Carrasco, and Antonio Bastardo, among others?
  • The bullpen will not be safe with Martinez on the mound.  It’s unlikely he can go more than six innings.
  • Started just 25 games over his final two seasons with the New York Mets.
  • He’s an ex-New York Met.

VERDICT:

It’s a win-win for the Phils should they lock him up.  While he is on the back nine of an illustrious career, Pedro Martinez could supply them with a solid back-end pitcher.  And if he doesn’t, the Phillies can cut him loose and eat the small amount of money he would be owed.

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148 Responses to “The Pros and Cons of Pedro Martinez”

  1. I know Sal.. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 8:32 am

    how about this..they sign Pedro, because their going to have to include Happ in a deal for Halladay. Our rotation becomes Hamels, Halladay, Blanton, Moyer, and Pedro (or Carrasco, or Carpenter, or Kendrick or…)?

  2. Phil Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 8:36 am

    No way! They can’t trade Happ. H cubed!!!

  3. Miles Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 8:38 am

    Sal, that is everyone’s favorite analysis/rumor of the day, but I think its a pipedream.

    Anyway, I just don’t know how you can consider a situation win/win when there are NO OTHER TEAMS INTERESTED. I mean you are telling me that he’s throwing well enough that we are interested, but no one else is this desperate? I just don’t see it. Why didn’t one of the other contenders step up and go check him out as well.

    Plus, try convincing a stadium full of Philly fans its a win/win when he gets lit up for a second straight start after being signed with Carpenter and Lopez pitching well at AAA. He also still stinks of New York Met. I’m just not as open to “projects” like this once you hit the All-Star break. April is one thing but I don’t want random burnt out arms being signed just to give it a whirl when we have division rivals coming to town in July-August. Just my take.

  4. Papa Thompson Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 8:48 am

    The Phils are doing the right thing by working him out again before deciding on a contract. I don’t mind them signing him. They say he looks good. If it turns out he sucks, send him walking. Is he any worse an option than Kendrick? And Lopez would still be a question mark without the shoulder trouble – now he’s a major question mark. They need to do something in preparation of the Halladay move.

  5. Ed R. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 8:52 am

    ESPN is reporting that whoever wants Halladay has to take the terrible contract that is Vernon Wells along with it. That could be good for the Phillies but also a deal breaker. If you have to add that big contract then it means the Phillies should not have to part with as many or as high of quality prospects as they would going just after Halladay. I could see the Phillies still doing it but they would probably have to include Victorino or Werth. Unless they want to pay Wells to be a almost 5 million dollar right hander off the bench and spot starter in the OF.

  6. I know Sal.. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 8:54 am

    I agree Papa…I just can’t see making this move without it foreshadowing something bigger down the line. As a 5th starter, if Pedro is throwing well I think it is a win-win. He brings experience, knowledge and a great personality to a team that he honestly would probably fit in just right with.

  7. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 9:25 am

    I think they want to use him as the 5th guy for the stretch and out of the bullpen in the postseason…

    As for The WElls thing…thats called bluffing. NOBODY IN BASEBALL is going to take on that contract. Theyre full of it when they demand that.

  8. rivlez Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 9:33 am

    Pedro pitching for the Phillies. Never would of thought it.

  9. Manny Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 9:45 am

    I completely agree with you, Miles. I’m pretty sure that one of the guys from AAA can perform at least as well as Pedro at this point.

    $2 million or whatever they pay him is still a good amount of money (he’d be making the same as Hamels during the rest of the season)… can’t we just use that to get a bench bat that’s better than Bruntlett and let one of our AAA guys be our 5th starter? They’ve done a good job, so why change it?

  10. Phil Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 9:56 am

    Maybe we can get Millar too when we trade for Halladay.

  11. NJ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 9:56 am

    Olney says Pedro has agreed to throw a second time (which he previously refused to do) and if the Phils see what they like then he could be in Philly by Monday. I guess we have to believe the Phils are looking at something very specific in Pedro otherwise it is a questionable move.

  12. Brian Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:00 am

    Just listened to John Heyman on WFAN. He said he thinks its 60-40 that Halladay gets traded. The fans in Toronto are protesting on it. He said Phillies are at the top of the list. Also the Angels are there. He said the Giants are another team but need hitting more. He said the Phillies have the talent to give away and the cash to sign.

  13. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:06 am

    With Millar – is that a guy that will thrive as a pinch hitter? does he need playing time to get good at bats? because the only PT hell get is as a pinch hitter.

  14. Chuck P Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:06 am

    I think that Pedro is better than what they’ve got ready to go on the farm, at this point… he’s going to give them an edge. We don’t really have that nasty pitcher… Pedro could help this team. If he doesn’t pan out, we haven’t wasted a lot of money…

  15. Tom G Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:09 am

    The issue remains the PHILS have not a little but a Serious problem with starting pitching…though Pedro could help the situation, our WINDOW is this YEAR, 2010 and maybe 2011…
    A Halladay and Hamels, one two, with Blanton and Happ(if not traded) as the 3/4 and bringing in a rookie for next year solidifies us for next year…

    Trading, 3 Farm Studs for the Best pitcher in Baseball, places the PHILS in the driver seat for two seasons…with much money coming off the books after this year…it also would allow us to either resign him, or go after another upcoming star starter for 2011…

    Giving up ( pick 3 of the following )CARASCO, HAPP, Savery, Drabek, and Knapp along with Dom Brown would make us unhappy about 2012, but great about the PHILS in 09, 10 and 11!

    DO it, and hope for the best…we are on the cusp…waiting any longer reduces his games available for impact…we have one week to deal! (and have max impact)

  16. Don M Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:14 am

    The Giants need a bat.. maybe they would be interested in Wells

  17. CZ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:15 am

    I’ve said this in other threads and I’ll reiterate my thoughts here. I LOVE this move. The reason? It shows the Phillies will do whatever it takes…but…they will do their best to build for the future at the same time. Who cares about the 2M? The way we fill up our stadium every game it means nothing. There is absolutely no risk at all here. If he comes in and blows up a few games release him and move on…its that simple.

    We are in the catbird seat here on all fronts. We lead our division and are capable of winning it going away with what we currently have on the roster. People like to criticize this move by citing that Pedro ‘choked’ with the Mets and caused them to miss the playoffs. Maybe he did but that situation was entirely different. The Phillies are not relying on Pedro…there are other options. The Mets, however, had no one else. He had to keep pitching for them even when it wasn’t going well.

    Pedro wants to play for a contender as he has never one a championship, so maybe he hasn’t had interest from other teams because he wants to pitch for the WFC.

    Pedro is as much a competitor as anyone who has ever taken the mound and that attitude will fit in with guys like Chase and Ibanez who play the game hard on every play. I look forward to him pitching for the Phillies and I hope we can get him a ring.

  18. Don M Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:17 am

    I like the Pedro signing (if it happens) .. $4 M is what I heard, after originally hearing $2.5 M … so that is expensive, but he’s so much better than Antonio Bastardo, Rodrigo Lopez, etc.. that I would GLADLY take Pedro on my team right now, because it gives us a better chance to win

  19. NJ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:21 am

    The issue with starting pitching isn’t serious, it’s noticeable but not serious. The majority of the rotation is turning in good performances in most starts. In the majority of losses the bats have gone quiet, failed to drive runners in or the opposition has managed to get some runs off the pen, sure there have been some bad starts that have resulted in losses but right now there aren’t too many. Roy Halladay, Kyle Drabek, Carlos Carrasco hell Dan Haren won’t change that.

    You don’t just give up prospects to get a guy or raid free agency thinking you’ll be better, the Yankees became a laughing stock for it, the Mets failed with that principle, even the Braves tried it briefly. I’d love Halladay but again you don’t just get a guy because you think he makes you better, you address your real problems and then se how a guy can help you otherwise your running towards a mess.

  20. NJ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:21 am

    The issue with starting pitching isn’t serious, it’s noticeable but not serious. The majority of the rotation is turning in good performances in most starts. In the majority of losses the bats have gone quiet, failed to drive runners in or the opposition has managed to get some runs off the pen, sure there have been some bad starts that have resulted in losses but right now there aren’t too many. Roy Halladay, Kyle Drabek, Carlos Carrasco hell Dan Haren won’t change that.

    You don’t just give up prospects to get a guy or raid free agency thinking you’ll be better, the Yankees became a laughing stock for it, the Mets failed with that principle, even the Braves tried it briefly. I’d love Halladay but again you don’t just get a guy because you think he makes you better, you address your real problems and then se how a guy can help you otherwise your running towards a mess.

  21. Don M Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:23 am

    Pedro is said to be throwing today at 1pm.. because they want to see how his arm responds before they sign him.

  22. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:25 am

    Its Pro-rated, meaning its abotu half of what is being reported.

  23. Miles Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:30 am

    Don M, how exactly do you know that he is better than Bastardo and Lopez? His ERA last season is almost exactly what Moyer’s is right now and all I’ve heard on this blog is complaining about him all year (some of it justified). The guy has been nothing but unproductive since 2005 and I find it to be very wishful thinking that he would be effective enough to keep a spot in this rotation, especially considering the ballpark.

    And since when is 2-4 million not a big deal? You don’t just pay someone that and that drop them after two starts if they are terrible. What happened to my angry Phillies mob that used to worry about dishing out dollars? That WF Championship has made us weak!

  24. Kevin Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    “He’s an ex-New York Met.”

    I know this is probably just there as a joke, but it’s not like Phillies fans have fallen in love with an ex-Met on the roster before (Lenny Dykstra anyone?)

  25. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:33 am

    Agree NJ…all these people are like “trade drabek, trade all of those top guys, its roy halladay.” i even heard someone call in on the drive home to ESPN radio yesterday and say “trade ryan howard, kyle drabek, michael taylor, and carlos carrasco for roy halladay and kevin millar” and the person was SERIOUS…still stuck in that idea that theyre going to trade howard. THey signed him to an extension because theyre NOT GOING TO TRADE HIM.

    what if you give up all those prospects for Halalday and he gets injured again? did you think about that?

    You have to hold onto 3 of your top 4 prospects in this deal. Out of Drabek, Knapp, Taylor, and Brown you have to hold onto three of them. Thats what WINNING teams do. You KEEP your best prospects so that you can have a respectable team in 2011.

    YOu need a frontline starting pitcher, BUT it doesnt have to be roy halladay if the asking price is too high. would it be great? YES. But if theyre asking you to give up your 3 BA Top 25 prospects then you tell em to take a hike on down the road. YOu offer one of those guys.

    And if tahts not enough? SO FREAKING WHAT?> MOVE ON TO SOMEONE ELSE.

    Thats the asking price in MOST trades for starting pitchers. One top notch prospect, a few decent prospects (Carasco, Donald) and filler. The Bedard trade was an anomaly and it got their General manager fired.

    Sabathia, Haren, Harden: all these deals folliowed the same general format.

  26. Mike Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:33 am

    I don’t know. . . Halladay would be great but I don’t like the idea of giving up Happ and having only two guys over 35 at the back end of the rotation. I think a safer move is to keep Happ and have something that looks like this:

    1) Hamels 2) Doug Davis/Zach Duke/Jarrod Washburn/etc. 3) Blanton 4) Happ 5) Moyer.

    Its not as flashy but those are all solid number 2/3 guys and it would give us FOUR reliable pitchers in the rotation.

    My fear with Pedro is that it suggest that we’re poised to give up Happ? But what if we don’t get Halladay? Do we really stop there?!? And if we go looking for another, do we keep Happ and have 6 guys in the rotation or do we trade Happ for the likes of Bedard? Signing Pedro thus scares me a bit.

  27. Mike Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:35 am

    Also, any thoughts on whether we could do a three-way with BoSox for Penny if we can’t get Halladay?

  28. Chuck P Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:35 am

    Great point, CZ… the expectations are much less than they were in the NY. I actually think that him being an ex-Met is a positive… you know that he’s going to want to come out and dominate that squad.

    Tom G – the Phillies don’t NEED to give up three top pitchers and Dominic Brown. Look at what other interested teams have (prospects)… we are one of only 2 teams with 3 top 25 prospects (and the Rays). If other teams are putting out 1 top 25, you would expect that we don’t need to sell the farm to generate a competitive offer. If they really want to move him, we shouldn’t need to blow them away; we need to have a better offer on the table than the other teams involved. The Cardinals only have 1 top 50 prospect (Brett Wallace) and he’s apparently off limits. The Red Sox have 0 in the top 25 and 2 in the top 50. The White Sox have 0 in the top 50 (but they have Gordon Beckham). If the Cardinals try to get this done, it’s probably going to cost them Rasmus AND they might have to take Wells in return. The White Sox might have to give up Beckham… The Rangers probably can’t do it, financially (they’re trying to sell the team so you don’t expect them to have a bunch of money lying around). The Angels don’t have any top 50 prospects.

    We are in the driver’s seat…

  29. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:37 am

    The WFC made us realize we have a great team already, they just are missing a few more pieces and then theyll be back again.

    were not as desperate as we used to be. Thats why its odd when you hear someone saying sell the farm for Halladay…because why? They won a championship with THIS same basic core team. They need a frontline starting pitcher, a RH bench bat, and an extra relief arm. But two of those 3 pieces you can get in August in a waiver-trade for cheap (which is the Phillies’ specialty). The starter has to be good and it will cost some good prospects, but you dont go throwing away the future ace of this team (drabek) and a future OPS/Homerun machine (taylor) or even the future leadoff hitter of this team (brown) just blindly and wrecklessly.

    thats what those three guys project to be, so you can give up one of them for the Doc, but NOT 2 and NOT all 3.

  30. Keystone Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:40 am

    CZ, Pedro won a world series in 2004 with the Boston Red Sox. He already got a ring.

  31. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    Happ is WAY too good a major league pitcher to trade or to even consider trading. There is ZERO chance that he will be traded. There is ZERO chance that Drabek will be traded? why? bc the GM and the Manager came out and said so…ALSO, how many times in sports (and in philly sports) has a team given up their entire farm for one superstar and it hasnt worked out? Look at the Braves with Texeira, actually – that stuff happens EVERY year. Sabathia? yeah they made the playoffs but he choked again.

    im PRAYING that the Pronger trade works out for the Flyers…praying hard…

  32. Don M Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:42 am

    Miles,

    I know that Pedro Martinez is better than Bastardo and Lopez.. because I am better than Bastardo and Lopez.. and Pedro Martinez is better than I am. Therefore, Pedro Martinez is better than them as well..

    I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY love how everyone on here is being smart about this Halladay move.. last year people would have been willing to give up everyone but Utley and Hamels to make the move… now we see how expensive free agents are (even .500 pitchers make $10 M per season).. and how important it is to keep homegrown talent..

    Before the season our Farm wasn’t ranked all that high.. but we’ve now got 4 players ranked in Baseball America’s TOP 50.. The Rangers, pre-season best farm system has 3 players, I think Yanks and Sox had 2 each..

  33. Chuck P Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:44 am

    I’m sorry… as good as these guys look, we would be LUCKY if one of those names (Drabek, Brown, Taylor, Knapp) actually lived up to the hype.

    Sell high, buy low… Rube should be smart and patient but I think that we should go for it. Prospects are prospects… if we don’t get Halladay, we need to go out and get a Davis/Duke/Washburn and we’ll be in a market saturated with buyers. There are only one or two teams that can put together a legitimate package for Halladay… I would rather be fishing in that pond (than the one where I’m standing shoulder-to-shoulder with other GM’s).

    My $0.02.

  34. beta sigma shag Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    I think the real problem with pedro, is he is a 5-6 inning pitcher, and we already have Moyer, do not get me wrong I like MOyer and have defended him on this site forever, but he is a 5-6 inning 2-5 run guy, and I am fine with that, especially with this offense. Now you put Pedro out there and you have two back end rotation guys that are going to tax your pen. That is really my only concern with signing Pedro

  35. Don M Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    Chuck P .. I agree to an extent.. because getting rid of TOP PROSPECTS for Roy Halladay.. isn’t a “BUY LOW” move ..

    but I agree with what you’re saying.. if Drabek has half the career that Halladay has so far, we should be happy

  36. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    REALLY? they are TOP 25 Prospects. MOST of the TOP 25 are guys that are close to major league ready and PROJECT as SOLID major league players.

    for a top 25, or even top 50 prospect to come to the majors and bust is a HUGE deal. because it really doesnt happen as common as people say it does.

    “oh well those guys wont amount to anything lets trade them all,” if you want to be the pirates in 4 years then GO RIGHT AHEAD.

  37. CZ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    Sorry, missed that one Keystone. That’s what I thought but a guy at work told me he had already left that team and I foolishly didn’t check the facts.

    Very good point Geoff. The WFC has not made us soft but it has taught us the value of patience and levelheadedness. Sure, we all still get upset at every loss and joyous with every win but I think all of that sky-is-falling crap has moved on a bit. This team has been doing business the same way for years now and they have shown that for the most part they know what they are doing. I will let them handle it the way they see fit and I will keep watching the Philies win.

  38. Don M Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:55 am

    Bastardo is a 4 inning pitcher, 6 run guy…

    I understand that Pedro isn’t the best move ever.. but signing him doesn’t limit any other moves with prospects and trades.. and if things go well, maybe we have pedro in the bullpen come playoff time when we’re only in a 4 man rotation anyway..

    I still think that Bedard is a target.. and would look GREAT as our #2

  39. beta sigma shag Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 10:56 am

    I think something is wrong here because I have been agreeing with Geoff way too much lately. Except I think if you have to give up Drabek, Donald, and one of the two outfielders I think they can do that. That is one top tier prospect and two guys that probably will never play in the big league on the PHillies, and even throw in another prospect, Carpenter, or Carasco. But you are right you do not give up your three top prospects, and you do not trade Happ, because he has proven to be a solid pitcher

  40. CZ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:00 am

    To be fair the Pirates have no shortage of ‘prospects’. What they have is a shortage of brains. They continuously get fleeced by bigger teams offering their prospects and they always take the crap guys that make you scratch your head. They also have proven to have no ability to consistently groom their young guys into talented players. One thing you can’t argue with the Phillies about is their continued success at turning draft picks into players…and many times we are talking about later round picks. Look at the current 4 guys in the top 50. Only one of them (Drabek) was a first round pick. That is why you can say with some certainty that these guy WILL be good. The Phillies have proven that the guys that reach these levels in their system DO work out.

  41. Manny Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:00 am

    I’m with Miles and Geoff on this one. If we can’t get Halliday because they simply want too much, SO WHAT… MOVE ON, and go after another less shiny but still solid pitcher. This Halladay thing has become more an obsession than an objective, cool-headed rationale.

    Look where we have holes and fill them. I see a hole in our No.2 spot… go take care of that. Halladay would be terrific, he would give us much more than what we need, but seriously ARE WE THAT DESPERATE?

  42. Walter Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:01 am

    Pedro at WBC: 2G, 6IP, 1H, 0R, 6K – although that doesn’t prove anything because he pitched 3 innings in two games and didn’t start any of the two. Also he pitched against the Netherlands who even though beat the DR they still don’t have MLB caliber hitters.

    Pedro and Bedard won’t fit in Philly because of high fly ball ratios which would turn into homers at CBP and Bedard never likes playing in high pressure cities like boston, NY and philly.

    Also Werth could join all star team because carlos beltran is injured and the NL needs an outfielder. That would be great because the phillies #2-6 hitters would all be on the all star team.

  43. Chuck P Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:06 am

    I didn’t say trade them all, Geoff… I actually said that we only need to trade ONE to get him. I do, however, feel like we should be selling high because our farm, which was once laughable, is now, arguably, the best in baseball. If there are only one or two teams that can actually piece together a package to get Halladay (and has a team that he’s willing to play for), I would say that’s a buyer’s market, wouldn’t you? Sell our prospects high and buy Halladay low… he’s a great pitcher and everyone knows that but there aren’t many teams that are able to do it…

  44. Mike T. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:07 am

    My list of Roy Halladay trade UNTOUCHABLES:

    1.
    2.
    3.

    The end.

  45. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:07 am

    Bastardo should be inserted into the pen upon his return. I think he should be able to contribute down the stretch and be groomed to replace Scott Eyre when he retires at the end of the season. With the eventual eye towards replacing Romero when he walks as the second setup man.

  46. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:08 am

    Im ok with one…as long as its not Taylor or Drabek…so Brown.

  47. Mike T. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:10 am

    I’d let the Blue Jays pick any 4 minor league players. The word “untouchable” is so ridiculous. I laugh at it every time.

  48. Mike Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:13 am

    Again, why the rashness to grab Pedro/Halladay? What’s wrong with:

    1) Hamels 2) Doug Davis (3.13)/Zach Duke(3.23)/Jarrod Washburn (3.08)/ Penny(4.71) 3) Blanton 4) Happ 5) Moyer!!

    We can hit the ball. To win the division and the NL, we just need more quality starts. Happ is doing it. Hamels can do it. Blanton eats innings and one of these guys would not cost us either Happ or our farm system.

    I know Halladay is the best but we don’t need the best. And Pedro has had heat in the past, but why waste our energy on a project? So what if he’s good in the locker room and has experience? We have guys that are good there and have experience winning. I don’t get why our choices are sell the farm and Happ or sit on our butts with Pedro.

  49. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:15 am

    right because why would you want good players to develop in your system and play for you under team control cheaply for 6 years? who wants that these days?

    Does anyone think they might let Victorino walk? With Taylor developing so quickly theyll have a crowded outfield..Werth has another year after this one…Does Vic have one more arb year next year?

  50. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    Come on man, you need something a little better than that. Penny sucks…those other guys are ok…but it would require the rest of the rotation to step up. They need a beast in there…doesnt have to be Halladay but someone.

  51. psujoe Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    geoff I’m coming around on this. I’d make the major piece Brown(BA #17). The Jays want Donald so he’s piece #2. A pretty solid 1, 2 in the deal. A pitcher needs to be in there so then you add Carasco. It’s a little more than what you advocated, but will it be enough?

    I realize the time is now, but a rotation in a couple years of

    Hamels, Drabek, Happ, Blanton and a FA isn’t the end of the world.

  52. Chuck P Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    Carrasco was a top 25 last year…
    Whatever happened to Josh Vitters??

    I think that BA does a good job and has gotten better but it’s not an exact science. Their top 10 in 2007 was (in order), Daisuke (way to go out on a limb and pick the foreign player), Alex Gordon (an ok player), Delmon Young (below average), Phil Hughes (average), Homer Bailey (average), Cameron Maybin (so far, no good), Longoria (got this one), Brandon Wood (still in the minors), J-Upton (another good one) and Andrew Miller (average)… the book is still out, but I would say that three of those players, at best, will have solid careers.

  53. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    Im with you man…thats a good packagte to start with…Brown, Donald, Carrasco, filler.

    Thats pretty fair. Theyd get a leadoff hitter of the future and theyd get abotu a year or two (Browns ETA to the majors) to get rid of Wells’ contract to make room for Brown to replace him in Toronto.

  54. psujoe Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    I’m now with Geoff on this. werth makes 10 mil next year and Vic will get a huge bump Howard, Hamels et al are going to cost. Does anyone think we can afford top contracts on Howard, Halladay, Vic, werth, Ibanezor FA LF, Lidge… We’re going to need 2 of Brown, Drabek and Taylor in the bigs to offset some of these huge contracts. So part with 1 top prospect, but keep the other 2. or we could become the Mets.

  55. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:24 am

    Im betting some team jumps in and gives Victorino big money…I DO think Vic still has one more arb year next year though…need verification

  56. Petey Pablo Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:25 am

    Kyle Drabek is 21 years old, has had TJ surgery, and the highest level at which he has pitched (though he’s pitched very well) is half a year at AA. Dom Brown is in A ball.

    Roy Halladay is arguably the best pitcher in baseball and, if he pitches for another 5 years or so at this level, a potential HOF-er. I cannot believe that most people agree we’d be stupid to trade both Drabek and Brown to get Doc.

  57. Don M Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:26 am

    Werth is currently ranked #18 overall.. in Yahoo fantasy baseball rankings..

    that’s crazy..

    Utley #9
    Ibanez #15
    Howard #49
    Victorino #35
    Rollins #204
    Feliz #240
    Ruiz … is good defensively

    Victorino (will turn 29 in November) signed for $3.125 M this season, the first time he was arbitration eligable. .. So he will get arb next year.. and again in 2011? I thought it was after 3 years.. and up to 6 years .. but of course I could be wrong.

    Werth is signed through 2010.. (turned 30 years old in May)

  58. Mike T. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    Petey Pabolo knows what’s up.

  59. Mike Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:31 am

    Geoff, I’m not sure you’re right about needing a beast. Where are the big bats in the NL? They’re in Philly. Perhaps there are some in LA but I’m not convinced. We need solid guys who can eat innings. We don’t need (although it would be nice to have) two ace pitchers to carry games.

    And I don’t want two aces if it means that, after Blanton, we got guys over 35 who can barely eat 6 innings. If anything will tax our bullpen and the top of our rotation, it will be losing a Happ and gaining a Pedro.

    As to some beast other than Halladay, who? Bedard . . . no thank you. The guy is injury prone and not worth the asking price. Who else then?

    This team just needs solid, reliable pitching throughout. Is it the greatest thing in the playoffs? Ok, well Halladay and Hamels combo would be great. But I am not convinced that giving up Happ for Halladay and letting Pedro pitch would even assure us the division.

  60. NJ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    There’s a reason Halladay’s available right now with 18 months left on his deal. Toronto want someone to overvalue him so much they throw a whole pile of prospects north of the border for him, that’s not to say he isn’t worth overpaying for but the economics of the game speak louder than anything.

    You want to be strong now and stronger later. Prospects are untouchable because you can build the backbone of a championship calibre team if your smart while everyone else is paying for former all-stars. Not ever prospect is going to be Tim Lincecum, Jon Lester or BJ or Justin Upton earning a fraction of what Halladay makes but you have to think of the economics of the game. Boston are successful because they have an immensely successful system of developing talent that keeps the pay-roll flexible, Tampa have built a contender out of prospects and veterans earning next to nothing. The Yankees failed to win a championship after a decade of collection All-Stars and look at the Mets this year.

    You may think you win a championship with All-Stars but you win by assembling the smaller pieces to make sure you’re not holding onto all these all-stars for nothing.

    It’s right we go after Halladay hard but think of the peripheral pro’s and con’s, it’s not so black and white. All-Stars sell tickets and merchandise to a greater effect than they contribute to winning because it’s guys like Chan Ho Park and Scott Eyre that contribute to a championship, it takes guys like Eric Bruntlett and Clay Condrey to be able to pay Ryan Howard. More importantly it’s going to take guys like Kyle Drabek to make sure this era of the Phillies organisation goes down as the most successful in team history and that isn’t built overnight, 6 years after the Red Sox broke the curse is their window closing?

    Would you rather a GM that resembles Theo Epstein or Omar Minaya? Smarts is what matters now not who you do or don’t trade for.

  61. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:34 am

    Id prefer to keep Happ too…Id re-check the tires on Cliff Lee and inquire about Dan Haren. juust in case…

    wow I didnt realize we had VIc under control for so long…Werth is singed for 2010, and in that case I think he becomes a FA. They might let him walk. Because he is a BEAST and someone will give him MAD MONEY

  62. Miles Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:37 am

    I agree with Mike, not Mike T. I don’t understand why the word untouchable is so humorous to you either. I know what would not be funny, though. That would be Drabek winning 20 games for the Jays in 5 years and Michael Taylor hitting 30 bombs a year alongside Vernon Wells. That would not be funny.

    I think the real reason why they are so hesitant to get Doug Davis, Duke, or Washburn is because that would give us 4 lefties and if we would run into a lineup with too many power righties in a playoff series (Cubs, Cards, maybe) we would be in trouble.

    Also @ Don M, Bastardo’s ERA before his last and most brutal outing against the Rays was 5.21 (that includes 4 ER in one inning against the Sox) and Lopez’s was 3.18 in 2 starts. Pedro’s ERA last year was 5.61 in 20 starts. There is a difference in sample size but the point is that you have no idea who is better than who. If we really thought he was our best option why didn’t we sign him a month ago when we were already throwing guys like Bastardo out there? I just think it sounds like a real stretch.

    My opinion would be no Pedro or Halladay (unless as Geoff mentions we have a package like Brown, Donald, Carrasco)

  63. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:38 am

    Looking at that situation now..I dont see any room for Mayberry to get any playing time other than a part time role…I think he could be traded before long.

    So if Werth hits the FA market then it will be Taylor replacing him. If brown is still here then hed come up too in 2010-11.

    Taylor needs moved up to AAA this season. He could be ready by mid-season next year if all goes well. So hed be blocked for a while barring any unforeseen trades.

  64. Mike D. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    I’d keep Happ. God help us if we sign Bedard, Don. A caller to WIP from Baltimore said that Bedard will complain if he’s been in for six innings and will try his best to get out of the game. That sort of guy would never fly here.

    Pedro is a low-risk, high-reward signing. We’re not relying on him (I hope), just kicking the tires. It’s not like we’re giving up Carrasco or Carpenter or Lopez for him.

    Werth is picking it up lately. Sorry for comparing you to Pat Burrell, Jayson.

  65. Petey Pablo Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:45 am

    NJ – Please. Boston built its team primarily through trades and FA signings (Manny, Ortiz, Beckett, Schilling, Bay, Cabrera, Lowell). They have payroll ‘flexibility’ because they can afford to spend an essentially unlimited amount of money. Yes, they have developed some good talent internally, but let’s not pretend that Boston is some kind of mid-budget, homegrown success story. Tampa has tons of young talent because they were the worst team in the league for about 6 straight years. Pick at the top of the draft every year and even the most incompetent front office will hit some gems.

    I’m not saying to gut the farm for Halladay, but we can give up 2 of our top prospects and be able to win now AND win later (following a Red Sox-type model, with slightly lower payroll)

  66. Miles Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:48 am

    I understand the concerns about Drabek not performing at a high level yet but you could have said the same thing about Cole at that point in his minor league career. He battled injuries, was inconsistent but seemed to be starting to dominate in A and AA. Then all of a sudden we shot him up to AAA and he dominated for a month and the rest is history.

    This team is not a good team to use as an example if you want to defend the “sell the farm for a sure thing” approach. Just RIGHT NOW we have two former MVPs, an NLCS and WS MVP, and the best second baseman (and probably the best out of all the others I mentioned) that we drafted and brought all the way through our system. That worked out pretty damn good didn’t it? You throw in guys like Myers and Ruiz and the case for keeping your prospects becomes even more compelling.

    Our farm system just won us a World Series so it is completely ridiculous to ignore the positives of holding onto high ceiling players in the minors.

  67. Petey Pablo Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    Bedard BLOWS. Trading for him would be a huge mistake and a true waste of prospects. Geoff – do you honestly think that Haren would command a package of B-level guys, such that its a no-brainer to check on him but stupid to go after Doc?

  68. Mike T. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:50 am

    Miles Miles Miles Miles… Miles Miles Miles. That’s awesome you can predict the future, I wish I had that power. How far into the future does Drabek throw his first major league pitch? Because he’s thrown 0 so far. How fast does he throw? Does he have an out pitch? A sick mustache like his father?

    I’m not sure what’s funnier, you predicting Michael Taylor to hit 30 bombs in 2014, or you predicting Vernon Wells (the most over paid piece of trash) to hit 30 bombs in 2014. They’re both equally as hilarious as using the word untouchable to describe a minor leaguer.

    Open your eyes a little – we’re talking about Roy Halladay. Think about that some more, and then get back to me.

  69. NJ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:54 am

    I’m not saying we don’t trade for Hallday. I am saying don’t be angry if we don’t trade for him.

    Look at Boston’s roster; Beckett Boston dealt for before his money years, Youklis, Pedroia, Papelborn, Lester, Elsbury, Delcarmen, Masterson, Ramirez, Bard, Lowrie… That’s a lot of guy who’ve earned a lot less than their performance. That’s why the Red Sox could afford to go after a guy like Teixera even with a payroll near the top of baseball, yes they are a big market team but they use a good system to keep their payroll flexible.

    The next stage of the Phillies plan should be thinking about how you replace Eyre with someone in the system who gives you that performance with upside for a fraction of the cost, same goes all-around the roster and then you can afford to go after a guy like Halladay and still be looking strong in the future. It’s baseball smarts, you emulate and improve on a format that works not one that doesn’t.

  70. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:55 am

    Its more like, they can afford to spend on good draft picks and keep their good homegrown players..then the extra ones they can AFFORD to trade for star players.

    I dont think the philleis have reached the point where they can dole out top prospect after top prospect and still expect to be good in 5 years. they need to exercise restraint and be patient. if you give up too much in a trade it almost always backfires on you at some point anyway.

  71. Miles Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    Mike T, my man, I’m not saying it WILL happen. I’m just saying it sure won’t be funny if it does and they are on another team.

    Can you see into the future and predict that Doc would come here and win 10 games down the stretch and win us another Series? No. I’m just flipping the situation on you a bit. And I know who we are talking about. He’s probably the best pitcher in the game. But he’s also had injury issues this year and would cost a kings ransom to get him. It is the definition of high risk.

    Maybe I’m just a conservative guy, but I have a limit on what I would even give up for a guy like Halladay. If this was last year and we hadn’t just won a Series, maybe I would have a different opinion.

  72. Petey Pablo Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    Mike – I agree we should not sell the farm, and obviously the Phils are a prime example of the benefits of developing your own guys. The bottom line is we need a top-end starter. Jarrod Washburn is not a #2 pitcher. From 2006-08 he had ERA+s of 95, 100, and 90 and WHIPs of 1.35, 1.38, and 1.46(!). This year he is pitching out of his mind, but I’ll take the previous track record (he’s a careeer 109 ERA+ – slightly above average). Zach Duke is a career 101 ERA+ with a 1.45 WHIP. Doug Davis: 107 and 1.45. These are not #2 pitchers, and we would be buying high on all of them.

    Also – what do you think we are giving up to get one of those three? Cause it won’t be a bag of baseballs and some pine tar. It will be at least one legit prospect (I’m thinking, at a minimum, it would resemble the Blanton deal, and it might cost more than that). So what you’re weighing here isn’t gutting the farm, it’s the choice between giving up two top prospects and one decent prospect to get the best pitcher in baseball, or giving up one top prospect and two throw-ins to get a mediocre pitcher who’s had a good first half of the year.

  73. Mike D. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 11:59 am

    Petey Pablo, you’re right that a lot of their team came in through trades, but Papelbon, Pedroia, Youkilis and Ellsbury are all Sox farmhands. The core of their 2004 team did come to Boston through free agency and trades, but their 2007 team doesn’t win without former prospects like Ellsbury, Pedroia, Papelbon, Youkilis, and Lester. Boston seems to have struck the balance between keeping your prospects and selling the farm – they have enough prospects to trade for a guy like Beckett while also keeping a few to play. In case anyone forgot, Hanley Ramirez was a Sox prospect. Because they had enough prospects, they could trade for Beckett but not have to sell the farm.

    It’s not like all of Boston’s prospects have worked out. Clay Bucholtz was supposed to be great, but he wasn’t very good. But that didn’t hurt them too much because they had enough prospects to not worry too much about it. It’s not like they were relying on him.

    And Jason Bay was brought in because they got sick of Manny. It’s a trade they had to make, if that makes sense. Pittsburgh got suckered on that deal, but they always get suckered.

    So do the Phils have enough prospects to make a trade for a Halladay while not selling the farm? Do they have enough prospects that if a trade goes down, and some of their top prospects aren’t what they were thought to be, can the farm system recover? That’s the question.

    Speaking for myself, I’m not used to a good pharm.

  74. kreiderr Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    Sign Pedro
    That fills the spot vacated by Happ when he, along with 2-3 prospects, are traded to Toronto for Halladay.
    Starting rotation:
    Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Martinez, Moyer
    You heard it here first

  75. kreiderr Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    Sign Pedro
    That fills the spot vacated by Happ when he, along with 2-3 prospects, are traded to Toronto for Halladay.
    Starting rotation:
    Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Martinez, Moyer
    You heard it here first

  76. Chuck P Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    Petey… stole the words right outta my mouth. Beckett, Bay, Schilling, Lowell, Dice-K, Penny, Smoltz, Manny, Ortiz, Drew… they have a handful of good farm guys but they haven’t been afraid to spend money, either.

    No one is saying give up the farm… if you give up Carrasco, Brown/Taylor, Donald and Marson for Halladay you would prospectively get 4 picks in return in two years.

  77. Miles Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    @ Petey Pablo and Mike T, if this was the trade on the table from the Jays, would you take it?

    Halladay for Drabek, Brown or Taylor, Donald, Happ, and Savery or Carpenter

  78. Miles Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    Chuck P they are gonna want more than that. I would do your deal in a heartbeat but I think they are gonna want something more like what I posted. And that means we gotta draw the line.

  79. CZ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    Petey, I must disagree about Boston as I think Miles has a point. The Phillies should (and may be) modelling themselves after what Boston has done. Look up the 2009 MLB payrool numbers and you may be surprised to find that the Phillies sit around $113M and the Sox are only about $10M Higher at a shade under $123M. Boston and Philly are comparable markets and there is no reason they should not be comparable in payroll. I think people get caught up in the fact that Boston and NY compete in the same division and assume that they are on an equal playing field money wise. That is not the case. Of their starting 9 many are homegrown (Ellsbury, Youkilis, Varitek, Pedrioa, Green) as are pitchers (Lester, Masterson, Bard). Sure they sign guys but they continuously mix in their farm guys and REFUSE to trade the best prospects. How long has Clay Bucholtz been @ AAA yet they still do not trade him. They understand that it takes the perfect mix of younger talent and experienced veterans to win. The Phillies, like the Sox, get that you have to play the game this way to succeed for long periods of time.

  80. Petey Pablo Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    Miles – No way. That’s absurd. There is a limit to what to trade for anyone, Doc included. Here’s the type of trades I make:

    Halladay for Drabek/Donald/Brown and some kind of throw-in if need be (Carpenter, etc.)

    Halladay for Happ/Donald/Brown

    However, if Happ is included we HAVE to sign Pedro (or someone else) otherwise it just doesn’t work.

  81. NJ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    Miles That would be an incredible deal for Toronto…

    Chuck P- They’ve been able to spend money because they’ve been smart and have used their prospects to fill roles with the big club and eventually some of them have succeeded those veteran names as the big players on the team. Lowell wasn’t in his big money years when he was a salary dump in the Beckett deal, Ortiz wasn’t earning big money for much of his Sox tenure. Smoltz and Penny certainly aren’t burning a whole in their pocket giving them time to ready guys from within.

    When you think of a guy like Savery think here’s a future successor to say Moyer then there’s something like $8m to go towards locking up a big name. We have some expendable pieces like Donald and Marson who could be traded to land a big arm but you can’t throw your entire arsenal in at once otherwise you just end up like St. Louis or the White Sox so bare after their titles because they got old quick, not like Boston who developed guys who are now the face of their franchise. That’s the mentality the Phils have to have, go all out for Halladay but don’t view him as your golden goose.

    All I’m saying is the Phils need to be smart, it can’t be a throw it all in for now mentality because that will end in failure, no team in recent years has accomplished a championship with that mentality. If the Phils are able to start getting guys up permanently to succeed guys in their money years then suddenly there’s no payroll issue going after and retaining Halladay.

    The future of this team has to come from within otherwise the doors going to slam shut quicker than you’d expect.

  82. Petey Pablo Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    CZ – Buchholz is not their best prospect. And they were more than happy to trade Hanley Ramirez for Josh Beckett. Their payroll is significantly lower this year than it was (relative to the rest of the league) from 2004-08 ($143MM in 07 and $135MM in ‘08, for example). Yes, Boston has home-grown talent, as every successful team must. No one, not even the Yankees, can just build an all-star team through FA and win (and the Yanks have plenty of farmhands on their roster, too).

    Of course we have to find a mix. I don’t think that mix is totally upset by trading 2 top prospects for Roy Halladay who is, and I can’t stress this enough, probably the best pitcher in baseball. Honestly, what’s a good estimate for his ERA in the National League? 2.00? 1.50? The Phillies will not circle the drain after 2011 if we trade Drabek and Brown.

  83. Tom G Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    50/50 rule…
    Halladay is a difference maker…for this and next year! While the Phils have the starting 9 and Cole to press for the WS again and again in 2010.
    the 50/50 rule is you’d have to take players in pairs, then decide which one you like to keep and place the other into the offer…
    Drabek or Knapp, for instance…
    Brown or Taylor
    Donald is a great choice to add into the pot, they are losing Scutero(sp) next season…so they’ll need a SS…
    Add a SAVERY or Carasco…realizing that you’ll have 50/50 on who you lost vs who you kept…not depleating your MINORS and FUTURE, but ensuring that this and next year are WS possible…

    But everyone is kidding themselves that Cole and this staff of irregulars can bring us home another CHAMP! Everything clicked last year…Lidge never blowing a save…we have ticking clock…time is moving…You have to give up some potential in the future for a CY Young type pitcher…

    Blanton is a good 3, and HAPP is a good 3, but Moyer sucks…we do not have a 2…
    We need upgrade in the rotation to protect our PEN…those arms will get weary in the dog days of summer…

    Halladay affords the possibility that with he and COLE the PHIGHTING PHILS will be the contender for 2010 too…forcing the METS and BRAVO’s to spend, spend, spend next year like Gov Spitzer in D.C.!

    Yanks, Red SOX the same…

    Oh well…my thoughts… and I love youth! But for Halladay I would do it

  84. Petey Pablo Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    TomG – Carrasco != Savery and cannot be considered a throw-in. Carrasco is still a potential 2/3 starter if he gets his head right. Under no circumstances should BOTH Carrasco and Drabek be traded to the Jays.

  85. Mike T. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    Miles, my response to them would be – “Six is too many, remove any two of your choice and it’s a done deal.”

  86. NJ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    Anyone who thinks Halladays numbers are going to be INCREDIBLE in the NL you better change your way of thinking fast because if we do deal for him you’ll be in for disappointment. He’ll likely get a slight bump but pitching’s still pitching. This isn’t a playstation game where things always go your way if you set the tables in your favour…

  87. Petey Pablo Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    The majority of Roy Hallday’s starts have come against the Red Sox, Yankees, and Rays. Think about their lineups. He also pitches in front of a below-average defensive team.

    If he comes here, he will pitch against the Mets, Braves, Fish and Nats. He will have one of the best defenses in baseball behind him. You don’t think his ERA will drop? Aside from which, his numbers already are INCREDIBLE in the AL so unless he’s *worse* in the NL I won’t be disappointed by his performance.

  88. NJ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    I think a drop will only be marginal, have a tough time seeing anyone’s ERA being arbitrarily hovering around or below 2. A pitchers going to get hit some nights no matter how good he is.

  89. From Section 113 Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    My two questions for people are does anyone have any faith that 1 of Carpenter/Savery/Bastardo/Kendrick can replace Happ? And as good as Happ has been I believe in the long term he’s a fringe #3 more of a #4.

    And how much would a Meche/Bedard cost? I mean they might cost 1 of our top 4 prospects (Brown/Taylor/Drabek/Knapp). Now Halladay is better than those 2 soooo is offering 2 of those prospects that much worse? I think the biggest sticking point is Happ. Losing Happ would suck frankly. I am not too concerned with the overall prospects because I believe no more than 2 of those top 4 will go. AND we’ll net 2 draft picks no matter what for Halladay.

    I would try and protect Happ over Drabek and Carrasco.

    Does anyone think Drabek/Carrasco/Donald/Gose+ 2 of Worley/Valle/Sampson/May/Bastardo get’s it done? 6 for 1. BUT we get 2 draft picks in 2011 if Halladay doesn’t sign so we are only gatting a net loss of 4 prospects…

    Thoughts?

  90. CZ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    Clay Buchholz did happen to throw a NO-HITTER in the major leagues a few years ago. Sure he may have regressed a bit but he has a 2.11 ERA in AAA right now. Wouldn’t we be happier with our supposed stud young pitcher Carlos Carrasco if he were putting up numbers like that?

    I think Boston knows full well that he will be a fixture in their rotation very soon. Daisuke is done, Wakefield can’t pitch forever, Smotlz and Penny are short term solutions. Clay is simply waiting in the wings and that is why he has not been traded.

  91. Mike T. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    NJ has lost his/her mind.

  92. NJ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    how exactly have I lost my mind? What have I said that so grossly offends you?

  93. Mike T. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    “Anyone who thinks Halladays numbers are going to be INCREDIBLE in the NL you better change your way of thinking fast because if we do deal for him you’ll be in for disappointment.”

  94. From Section 113 Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    CZ – I like Buchholz too but just because he threw a no-no doesn’t mean he’ll be great. Milton threw one, as did Tyler Green, Anibal Sanchez, and the list goes on. So while I think he’ll be good, he may not be great. I think lester will be better than him by the end of their careers.

  95. Mike T. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    “incredible” is a subjective word – dont’ use it.

  96. NJ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    let me clarify, I mean to say I think those that think he is going to eclipse his career numbers and routinely win over 20 games with an ERA under 2 at he drop of a penny will be left disappointed. I’d expect his numbers overall to be pretty comparable to where they are now even in the NL.

  97. NJ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Mike T. who are you to dictate what words can or can’t be used as if you are the moderator here, next time you might think to suggest something and not demand. You shouldn’t use phrases like ‘don’t use it’…

  98. Petey Pablo Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    Section 113 – Happ’s ERA is 3.04 but his FIP this year is 4.65 and his BABIP against is .246. In other words, he is getting a bit lucky and benefiting from excellent fielding behind him. I wouldn’t want to lose him but it’s worth it for Halladay. I agree I’d rather protect Happ than Drabek or Carrasco, though.

    6 for 1 is too much. I’d offer Drabek/Brown/Donald/Marson or something like that. If they really want Happ, then maybe Happ/Carrasco/Brown/Donald. That’s really the ceiling for me. If they want more than that, tell them to pound sand.

    NJ – along these same lines, Halladay’s ERA and FIP are identical (2.85). I think it’s absurd to think his ERA won’t approach 2.00 in the NL and with our defense behind him. As far as someone’s ERA hovering around 2, remind me again what Zach Greinke’s ERA is this year…

    CZ – Buchholz has a huge upside, no doubt. I just don’t think it’s fair to say the Sox haven’t traded him because he’s their top guy and somehow untouchable. The situation just hasn’t presented itself, and Neil Huntington is a moron. Amaro shouldn’t offer the moon to Ricciardi immediately, but he needs to be prepared to hand over at least one of the ‘untouchables’ to get Doc.

  99. Mike T. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    106 k’s, 2.85 era and 1.10 whip in the AL EAST.

    Our “ace” has 79 k’s, 4.70 era and 1.39 whip.

    A performance better than Cole is all I’m looking for here.

  100. NJ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

    Petey- I think Halladay in the NL stands a chance to have improved numbers but his numbers are already pretty near what you’d wish for in every catagory.

    The league leader in ERA in 2008 was Johan Santana with 2.53
    2007 Jake Peavey with 2.54
    2006 Johan Santana with 2.77
    2005 Andy Pettitte with 2.39
    2004 Jake Peavy with 2.27 (in 27 starts)

    The only time a pitchers been below 2.22 (Pedro Martinez in 2003) in the last decade was in 1999 when Pedro turned in 1.74 in 27 starts.

    Given all that above I think it’s a hell of a long-shot to think Halladay will drop his career best by 78pts. I’d fully expect him to cut into that number and pick up a couple of extra wins in the NL but not eclipse his career numbers and give the kind of numbers that haven’t been seen for a decade.

  101. Petey Pablo Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    NJ – We will have to agree to disagree. I hear what you’re saying, but I guess I just think Doc is a significantly better pitcher than you do (and I know you think he’s great). I just can’t get past the fact that he puts up the numbers he does facing the AL East regularly and with a fairly crappy defense backing him up. Under 2 is hyperbole by me, but I think anywhere from 2.00-2.20 is reasonable.

    Hopefully we find out up close and personal after Amaro trades for him.

  102. From Section 113 Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:33 pm

    Petey Pablo- Good points but there is no way they only take 4 players back. Texas got 5-6 for Texeria.

    Plus we do net 2 draft picks. If its Happ, I’d do it but I wouldn’t be happy about it. Happ/Carrasco/Knapp/Gose/Donald/+1.

    That’s a ton of talen but we still keep Marson/Brown/Taylor/Drabek

  103. Pat Gallen, Phils Examiner Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    Thanks for all the great comments on my first article.

    To be honest, I’m not a huge fan of Pedro. But lets look at the numbers. Won’t make much, and his prospects are at least a little bit better than Lopez and the like. I called it a win-win, and that was tough to do for a 37-year old who was wanted by no one 3 months ago. Thats how thin it is out there when looking for arms.

    As far as Halladay, love him to death, but also not crazy about giving up a huge number of prospects. Count me in if its reasonable, which it probably won’t be. Big Drabek fan, big Taylor fan too. Brown in my opinion can go, and I like what Savery has done. Happ, unfortunately, would probably have to go. And I enjoy what he has done. It’s really a tough call.

  104. Mike T. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    Happ, Savery, Taylor, Drabek, Knapp … bye, see ya later, adios, have fun, thanks for everything.

  105. Petey Pablo Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:46 pm

    Section 113 – you can’t use a position player trade as a comp for a pitcher. Halladay is the man, but he’ll only be out there once every 5 days. The Mariners gave up 5 prospects for Bedard and that trade is universally recognized as a huge mistake, and got Bavasi fired. Yes, Halladay is a hell of a lot better than Bedard, but 6 is still way too much.

    Sabathia is a decent comp (though not completely because he was a half-year rental and Doc has a year and a half left). The Yankees got the #1 guy in the Brewers’ system, two B/B+ guys, and a throw-in.

    So, what do we have to pay to get Halladay? We don’t have a prospect with Laporta’s ceiling, and Halladay is better than Sabathia and not just a rental, so that will drive the price up. However, the Jays are having cash problems, won’t contend, and know that if they don’t move Doc now the return will drop. I’d say we need to give up three top prospects and one B/B+ and that’s more than fair.
    Hence, Happ/Carrasco/Brown/Donald or Marson. If they really need something else, then some kind of throw-in will work, and will make 5 total. That’s got to be the limit.

    IMO, Happ/Carrasco/Knapp is too much pitching upside to give away, let alone piling Gose, Donald, and another on top of it.

  106. Chuck P Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    Just heard someone (Jayson Stark, maybe?) on 610 talking about the situation… a few things to note:

    1. He thinks that there are 5 teams – PHI, LAA, BOS, MIL and STL.
    2. He thinks that the Phils are the front runners..
    3. He thinks that the deal might be something like Happ, Drabek, Taylor and Donald (Taylor is not on their NT list…)
    4. He thinks that the Phils should do it… even if Drabek is a HOF’er, we’ll have a second ring.

    I don’t think that they have to deal Drabek and Happ but maybe they do. Drabek is young and has already had TJ surgery. That has to be a concern…

    If we don’t get a #2… there will be no second championship. It doesn’t have to be Halladay but we have to get someone. How much will it cost for a Doug Davis? Is Roy Halladay not worth the extra prospect that it might cost?

  107. Petey Pablo Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:53 pm

    Pat – thanks for the great article. Would you make this trade:

    Happ/Carrasco/Brown/Donald/Savery for Halladay?

    We keep Drabek, Knapp, Marson, Taylor and everyone else and get a year and a half of Doc. I think that’s a deal Amaro would have to make. Personally, I have a strong preference for keeping Taylor over Brown (assuming Toronto demands one or the other; I’d love to keep both), but that may be because I was awed by Taylor when I saw him in Reading and haven’t had a chance to see Dom in person.

  108. Mike T. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    I still cannot believe the people on here that call minor league players “untouchable” … stop falling in love with people – that’s all it is.

  109. Petey Pablo Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    ChuckP – I really hate the thought of losing Taylor…that said, if the Jays will give us Halladay for Happ, Drabek, Taylor and Donald I will leave work, load them all in my car, and drive to Toronto right now.

  110. Mike T. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    There it is again, “Aw man, I really hate the thought of losing Taylor”, “Do we really have to give up Drabek??? His hair is sooooo nice.” STOP IT. STOP FALLING IN LOVE WITH MINOR LEAGUE PLAYERS! YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT THEY’LL DO IN THE BIGS — this is getting silly now.

  111. CZ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 1:59 pm

    Another discussion about the Halladay trade possibilities from guys who know their prospects…

    http://phuturephillies.com/2009/07/10/friday-discussion-items/#more-3471

  112. CZ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    Mike T – the problem with just blindly giving away everyone is that when that deal backfires nobody forgets about it. Omar Minaya is an idiot but would we all think that if he hadn’t brokered the Bartolo Colon deal for Montreal that netted the Indians Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips? Will Steve Phillips ever live down the Scott Kazmir for Victor Zambrano deal?

  113. NJ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    If your throwing away Happ, Drabek, Knapp, Taylor. What happens when Werth’s contracts up? Moyer’s? Blanton’s? How do you replace Happ who looks to be a long-term feature in the Phillies rotation with minimal service time?

    You blithely trade away prospects and you end up looking like the Mets- Johan Santana and a collection of excuses why that team looks incapable of winning instead of pointing fingers at management where the real problem is.

    I’m all for Halladay, I like the Pedro move (if and when the deal is finalised) because I believe the Phils have done their homework but the minute the Phils stop thinking long-term then it’s time to lower expectations. Thinking long-term is not neglecting an opportunity to win, it’s being smart and vigilant. One player no matter how good Halladay is is going to ensure a dynasty and for that reason I think it’s rash to call for an emptying of the jewels of the Phillies system, be prepared to talk about structuring a package around one sure, but no team is loading up all of its most promising prospects for anyone.

  114. Pat Gallen, Phils Examiner Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    Petey, I think 5 is too much. In that trade the Phils are giving them a major league ready pitcher in Happy, our top prospect in the system in Brown, Donald who is nearly ready at SS/2B, plus two good prospects in Carrasco/Savery. I’d say keep one of those and it might be enough. But then again, who knows what Ricciardi is looking for. He could be asking for 6 top propects.

    Mike T, I understand that you clearly want Halladay. But some people believe that the minors is where its at. In recent years the Phillies have had great success with players coming up. Should they mortgage the entire future for right now? I think it would be silly to give up all of the best guys and leave themselves bone dry. Although, god dammit I like Roy Halladay. It eats me up inside.

  115. Chuck Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    Im sorry guys…..but Taylor, Donald, Happ AND Drabek is WAY too much to give up. I really don’t care how good Halladay is. In my opinion, that is mortgaging the future. I think it’s reasonable to assume that we have to give up either Happ OR Drakek….not both. I think that Happ is the one to keep. He’s young, he’s proven himself as a VERY reliable starter. Let them have Drabek if that’s what it takes and, if needed, throw in a 5th guy, someone further down in the system.

  116. Petey Pablo Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    Mike T – chill. We agree. After I said I’d hate losing Taylor I said I’d drive him to Toronto myself if that deal will get us Halladay. Yes, prospects can and do flame out, but there has to be a limit. We can’t trade the entire Reading roster plus Carrasco, Happ, Brown, and Knapp to the Jays for Doc, because we will have no team come 2012.

    To me, the Phils can afford Happ/Drabek/Taylor/Donald. They can’t go too far beyond that without putting the team’s future in jeopardy.

  117. Chuck P Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    Who is this Ryanhoward06 fella that uses my tagline?

    MMy $0.02…

  118. NJ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    Mike T- Why didn’t the Giants trade Lincecum or Cain when they were in the minors? Why didn’t the Braves trade their saviour incarnate Tommy Hanson? Why didn’t the Yankees trade Phil Hughes or the BoSox Clay Bucholz for Johan Santana.

    Prospects are the future of your franchise or the future of someone elses while you try and pick up the shattered fragments of a former contender now saddled with aged immovable veterans on bad deals.

    Teams that draft, sign and develop talent and get it up to the major league level while they are still contending are those teams who continue to be relevant past it’s initial batch of prospects. This is what the Phillies have to attempt achieve, the moneys there, the prospects are they, the major league talents there. Yes the Phillies have to be aggressive in trying to land an arm like Halladay but there’s a point where a deal becomes destructive. The idea that no player in the Phillies minor league system is going to play and star for the Phillies is as ridiculous as hanging your hat on one guy. You assemble a batch of talent and then find ways of getting them up the big club, some will fail sure but others won’t. For a team currently built on homegrown talent many Phillies fans seem to be really hesitant about believing there’s more on the way.

  119. Petey Pablo Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    Pat – good point. Jon Heyman reports that they want 2 top, near-ready prospects and 2 good prospects from lower in the system. Maybe we could get away with Drabek/Taylor/Donald/Knapp and keep both Happ and Carrasco. Drabek, Taylor, Donald, and Knapp would seem to fit the Jays’ wish list (depending on your preferences the Phils could substitute Happ for Drabek in this trade).

  120. Chuck Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    Exactly NJ…..that’s what I’m saying. The Phils have to be very cognizant of the future with this.

  121. Chuck P Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    I really like Taylor… REALLY.. but I would keep Brown if it comes down to it… he’s a little bit younger and seems to be the best fit to replace an outfielder in two years when we’ll actually need one.

    For once, we have the best prospects… it’s a matter of finding a meeting point. In my opinion, I would be ok with trading Happ. I would be ok with trading Drabek. I would be ok with trading Taylor. BUT I would not be ok with trading all three of them… if Amaro is willing to be patient, I do think that this deal will get done. This guy apparently likes to talk things out… if Rube talks with him enough, he will get comfortable.

    I can’t believe that Carrasco is virtually worthless in these talks… last year he was untouchable.

  122. Mike T. Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    NJ, those teams didn’t trade those guys because they were never in the position the Phillies are in now (reigning champs, and days away from running away with the division).

  123. psujoe Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    Wait a second. Happ, Drabek, Taylor and Donald is too much IMO. I would think Cleveland would take something like Drabek, Donald, Marson and Savory for Lee, No?

  124. From Section 113 Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    I just don’t think that all these prospects are going to amount to much.

    Donald- ??? No JRoll
    Carrasco- Is it me or do you guys see Padillia mentality in him?
    Knapp- Please he’s too young.
    Gose- Willy Taveras???

    Maybe 6 players are too much but I would rather give up 6 and keep both OFs and 1 of Knapp/Drabek.

    1. Drabek – your LaPorta of last yrs CC trade.
    2. Gose- is not as good as Taylor/Brown but fast an lots of upside, plus he could always become a nice lefty. He’s our 4th best OF
    3. Carrasco- Has shown nice peripherals, but melts with RISP.
    4. Happ- Pitched well this yr, but honestly, he’s a 3/4 pitcher at best. He relys on his command, and if he loses it he’ll get hit hard.
    5. Donald- Better than Eric Bruntlett but that’s not saying much. At best someone once compare him to a possible Zobrist. That’s not untouchable.
    6. Low minor leaguer Valle/May/Pettibone/whomever- Not worth much.

    In Return getting
    - 2 shots at legit World Series.
    - 2 draft picks which would immediately replace #5 and #6
    - Kepping 3 of the top 4 prospects
    - Keeping Marson over Donald. I have more faith in Feliz than Ruiz and more faith in platooning 3B than catcher.
    - oh and ROY HALLADAY

    It’s not Crazy.

  125. NJ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    Remember the Jays are high on Donald who’s at an immediate position of need for them, Marson also fills a position of need for them.

  126. Chuck P Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    Carlos Beltran out of the all star game… JAYSON WERTH SET TO REPLACE HIM!!!!

  127. Petey Pablo Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    NJ – If the Yankees had it to do over again, do you really think they’d refuse to trade Hughes for Santana?

  128. Chuck Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    Yeah…as I was saying Happ AND Drabek shouldn’t even be in the same sentence. I agree with Chuck P….trade Happ…..trade Drabek….trade Taylor. But definitely NOT all three…..AND certainly NOT BOTH Happ AND Drabek. Patience will pay off.

  129. Chuck Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:41 pm

    psujoe…I lile that trade but I don’t think Cleveland would do it I would think that it would take more.

  130. Petey Pablo Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    NJ – Even better. Offer them Carrasco, Donald, Marson and May.

  131. Pat Gallen, Phils Examiner Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    Chuck broke that down nicely. I like where his head it at.

    But that last sentence, “patience will pay off” may not apply here. Phils are built to win now, so they may have to throw quite a few eggs into the Jays basket.

    Thats why they are going after Pedro too. Win now friends.

  132. From Section 113 Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    To those all those saying not Happ AND Drabek i ask why not?

    Not trying to say you guys are wrong. Just my take is that you’d still have Knapp who should be better than Happ as a starter or a Madson type reliever.

    Then you still have Savery/Kendrick/Carpenter (who i have no faith in)/Worley all competing for spot #5.

    Drabek is a top prospect and needs to be sacrificed. So be it.

    2010-
    Halladay/Hamels/Blanton/Moyer/(Pedro/Lopez/Kendrick/Carpenter/Bastardo)

    2011- Blanton + Halladay are FA to begin the yr so maybe we thrown the money at Halladay probably not. This is where having Happ or Drabek would be useful, but at this point we could have a 2nd championship. It’s just how do you weigh it all.

    *Remember Kotchman and McPherson were suppose to lead the Angels into a dynasty??? How did that work out?

  133. Manny Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    I wonder if those that want to mortgage the team’s future to get Halladay NOW *at all costs* would actually buy tickets for 15+ games when this team sucks the next decade.

    Some people just can’t think long-term.

  134. NJ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    Did the Red Sox throw everything into the pot after winning in ‘04 with a more volatile fanbase than the Phillies? They won again in ‘07 with a roster full of homegrown players developed under and after that ‘04 team.

    Look at the Red Sox roster and system, Angels, Dodgers, Rays and then tell me you think the Phillies should empty a regenerated farm system for a shorter window or opportunity, name one team that has recently won with that strategy. Look around the teams that are most capable of mounting a championship run and you’ll see teams that still have a stocked up farm.

    Again I re-iterate I’d LOVE Halladay but there’s a point to which a package exceeds value with ANY player. Saying the Phillies should trade their now top ranked prospects arbitrarily because there too much of a risk they won’t make the majors is just as good as saying we should have traded Cole Hamels, Chase Utley and Ryan Howard when they were in the system. Be prepared to deal prospects sure but don’t hold up a sign saying ’screw me’.

  135. NJ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 2:57 pm

    “To those all those saying not Happ AND Drabek i ask why not?’

    Because no-one else right now looks to be offering a major league arm AND elite pitching prospect as well as the rest of the prospects it would take to get a deal done. Donald, Marson, Carrasco all are near major league ready and should be viewed as the players in getting a deal done. If Toronto wants Happ, Drabek, Knapp, Brown or Taylor their going to have to reduce their asking price as a whole, they won’t be riding off into the sunset with all of them. If they want guys two near major league ready and two good prospects as has been suggested that leans towards guys like Donald and Carrasco.

  136. From Section 113 Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    NJ-
    I agree with you, the Red Sox really only gave up Hanley.

    However they still gave up Hanley and they got 2 guys back that won for them.
    And to be fair over half the team in ‘07 weren’t home grown.

    Lowell/Lugo/Crisp/Drew/Manny/Ortiz/Schilling/Beckett/Hinske/Wakefield/Pena/
    Timlin/Okajima just off the top of my head.

    1-2 of the top 4 wouldn’t be crazy but shouldn’t be more than that. Then 3-5 other players.

  137. From Section 113 Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    And let’s not forget soem of these prospects we are talking about will NEVER have more value than they do now.

    I am not advocating selling the entire farm, those people are not thinking ahead but Happ AND Drabek shouldn’t be a deal breaker. What it should do is exclude Taylor/Brown/Knapp.

    And while 2011 will be a tricky yr for us if we did trade both, it wouldn’t have to be a selling off point for us.

    In my opinion, Happ + top 4 prospect + 2-4 others is worth it to me. Even no Happ but 2 of the top 4 prospects is ok by me. BUT I’ll draw the line at Happ + 2 top 4 prospects OR 2+ top 4 prospects.

  138. Brian of CO Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    I think I could have added several other CONs in there. #1 a CANCER in the locker room! You thought Lowe has an attitude? WOW, Lowe is high class, and ZERO attitude compared to this guy. I dont think he will do any better than Moyer. Whats different between Moyer and Pedro? Class, and Moyer earned more patience from last year, and his career then Pedro IMO. I hope Im wrong, but if this is our ONLY “big name starter signed” this is the beginning of the end, because now instead of 1 old pitcher, you now have 2 old pitchers which the offense needs to cover for.

  139. Dave Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    “This is getting silly” said the man who wants to drive Happ, Savery, Taylor, Drabek, and Knapp to the airport. What was that, Capt. Ahab?

    Also, I love the idea of giving up Happ. Who wouldn’t want a back-end rotation of Moyer and Martinez? They both have a shitload of wins, right? Besides, the only games that matter are those started by the top two pitchers.

  140. psujoe Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    My Brain hurts, LOL.

    Is Bautista still arbitration eligible?

  141. psujoe Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    If we are trading for Halladay to win now, doesn’t adding Happ to the deal seem at cross purposes? His last 4 games went 6, 9, 7, 7

  142. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    EXACTLY RIGHT. if you BLINDLY blow away your prospects it WILL backfire on you like it did to the mets. yes they got santana, but they have a bunch of trash to go along with him and noone coming up…thats why its so important. thats why the mets have nieve, livan hernandez and tim redding back there. you can make this move WITHOUT giving up more than one of your top 4 prospects. AND if they are demanding (which they arent becuse toronto has NO leverage) about it then you tell them to take a hike.

  143. Geoff Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    Chris Coste was DFA and picked up by the Astros…Bako now the backup. Who are they making room for? Pedro or someone else?

  144. CZ Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    Ibanez takes coste’s spot tonight. I like having a left handed hitting catcher to go with Ruiz.

  145. Griffin Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    Best of luck to Coste in Houston. A class act, great story and 2008 World Champion.

  146. JR Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 6:26 am

    I’m a Red Sox and a Phillies fan (live in New England moving to Philly).

    Pedro as a 5th starter is a reliable enough of an option to be worthy of a pro-rated contract offer. What old/washed up aces generally do when taken on teams in contention is help the younger staff develop their own pitching repetoire.

    This alone could be worth the 2 million or so the Phillies would be out for Pedro. Never mind, the 85 IP 3.95 ERA 60 K and 8 wins he’d probably be projected to have.

    I say sign him, it heats up the anti-New York rivalry, gives you an extra arm in the pen for october, a solid enough of a 5th starter that will give you a chance to win (all you can ask from 5th starters), and could very likely help the younger starters become better starters.

    Just don’t make me have to pick between the Sox and Phillies for the W Series!

  147. phils gm Says:
    July 13th, 2009 at 8:04 pm

    let me tell you what will happen,if doc gets traded,and that is a very big if,the phillies will be a prime player,to a point.drabek is going no where,a 21 year old ,throws upper 90s,anvil curve and just a touch below major league ready,i see the following,phillies will offer a pkg of jason donald,carlos carrassco,lou marson and a choice of happ or brown,amaro understands the most important fact,the jays have initiated these trade offers by making it known doc was available,they arent in a position to ask for the world

  148. Jean Says:
    July 16th, 2009 at 12:15 am

    Saludos a Todos, estuve detallando todo esto y solo quiero recordarle que Sergio Escalona es uno de los lanzadores que ha hecho el trabajo y que poco a poco ira demostrando lo importante que sera para este equipo. Phillies de philadelphia

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