Phillies Nation

50 Responses to “Moyer: Odd Man Out”

1. Tom G Says:
   August 6th, 2009 at 8:12 am

   If Amaro is stupid enough to put HAPP in bull-pen than we can kiss it good bye…I trust in him…for the moment…
   Hell, we all know Moyer is not designed as a reliever…but HAPP is too important to the W-L record as a starter…

   Crazy!

2. The Dipsy Says:
   August 6th, 2009 at 8:13 am

   Alas Amanda, I am sure you are right. After last night, there is no suitable option in all this that involves taking Happ out of the the rotation. When the chips were down for him he just took his spot and grabbed it by the throat. Jaime must pitch out of the pen. If Pedro implodes he can come back. Perhaps a good idea, and it may have already been done, is to put Jamie on waivers and see if someone claims him. Fat chance right? Good article A.

3. Will Says:
   August 6th, 2009 at 8:17 am

   The Dipsy has terrible taste in music. There. I said it.

4. Brian of CO Says:
   August 6th, 2009 at 8:36 am

   Well, I disagree with the statement “We all love Moyer”. You can say all you want that you love Moyer, but if the man only gives up 3 runs in 6 innings everyone is still saying he sucks, he never should have been signed. Wehn Hamels goes out and gives up 6 runs in 5 innings before being pulled, “dont worry he only had an off night”. I dont get why its a bigger deal for a #4 or #5 starter to give up 4 walk 2 (just to have those counted against him) then it is for you NEW #2 starter (former Ace) to give up 6 runs in 5 innings before being pulled. Do I think Moyer is great, NO. But lets call it like it is folks. The #4 or #5 starters usually have a higher ERA. Fact is, Hamels has been pitching like the #4 starter all year except the single game against the Dodgers. So really, call it like it is, most people hate Moyer, no sugarcoating it.

5. Kimmy Says:
   August 6th, 2009 at 8:46 am

   Well written! I agree 100%. And while Moyer does have 10 wins ALL SEASON, Happ has 8 in much less time! I really think its clear and I trust in Amaro, he doesn’t play around to much. There is a lot of respect for Moyer but he’s got to head to the ‘pen. Give Pedro 4 or 5 starts to get back into it, if he dosnt then moyer comes back. We all think its cut and dry…..whatcha gonna do Ruben???

6. Morris Buttermaker Says:
   August 6th, 2009 at 8:49 am

   I’d lose a lot of respect for Moyer if he sits back and allows for Happ to be placed in the bullpen. If he really is a clubhouse mentor and coach to the younger players, it would be a great example of him sacrificing himself for the good of the team if he sticks up for Happ.

7. Craig Says:
   August 6th, 2009 at 8:51 am

   Moyer the odd man out? A little harsh. He was flat out dealing, well as much as a 46 yo can in the majors, during the month of July.

8. Doug D. Says:
   August 6th, 2009 at 9:02 am

   I don’t know if anyone has suggested this, but here goes. Have Hamels, Lee, Blanton and Happ hold their spots and pitch on regular rest. And here’s a novel idea — let Moyer and Pedro “share” the 5th spot. You could either alternate who starts the game each turn of the rotation and having them both prepare and have one of them pitch the 1st 4-5 innings and the other pitch the next 4 innings. Or you could have Jamie start each game and bring in Pedro to finish. It’s my understanding that Pedro’s contract gives him bonus money to finish games. Talk about some incentive. It’s kind of a unique situation, so it requires a different approach to solve.

9. Brian of CO Says:
   August 6th, 2009 at 9:07 am

   That was my point Craig. Fact is the statement “We all love Moyer” is honestly a flat out lie. Most people hate on him regardless of how he pitches. 4 out of the last 5 outings he gave 3 or less runs, even lost a few in there for lack of run support). Even after the Marlins game where he gave up noe single HIT not a run, people were hating on him compared to Hamels giving up 6 in 5 before getting pulled “Oh don’t worry he had an off night”.

10. Brian of CO Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 9:08 am

    Moyer pitches better away from CBP, I would have Pedro and Moyer share, but have Moyer pitch for away games, and Pedro pitch for home games.

11. beta sigma shag Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 9:17 am

    I really do not get the Pedro thing, has he pitched in the majors this year, he has only been able to pitch 5 or 6 solid innings in his last two years. And by the way the major league WHIP average is like 1.4, so in that stat Moyer is average that is not bad for your fifth starter. And he has had one bad start in his last 8. 3 runs in 6 inning is what you will get from a fifth starter, and you should take that 7 out of 8 starts from you number five starter.
    I really do not know where the pedro love comes from, I do not know why he can not go to the pen, if he has the stuff to do it, or give him million dollars and send the guy on his way, he will not be good for this team. Hamels-Lee-Blanton-Happ-Moyer is the best rotation this teams has now baring any injures that is how it should stay. I say DON’T VOTE FOR PEDRO

12. Brian Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 9:22 am

    Did anyone ever imagine seeing Greg Maddux(355 career wins and a much better pitcher than Moyer) come out of the bullpen last year against us in the NLCS? The fact is, for as GREAT of a career Maddux had, he couldn’t cut it as a starter anymore and never threw an inning of relief, but still had some productive innings left as a middle reliever. If he wanted to make the Dodgers playoff roster, he had to be in the pen.

    Even if the Phills keep Moyer in the rotation, they will only throw 3 or 4 starters in the playoffs, so he will not make the playoff roster as a starter.

    When Pedro is ready, give him a few starts and kick the tires on Moyer in the bullpen, especially with the current injury situation we have in there. If Pedro fails, then move Moyer back to the 5th spot and move Pedro to the bullpen role.

13. Shawn Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 9:24 am

    Pedro has yet to prove anything. He is pitching in the minor leagues. I could stike out 11 guys in AA ball. I would put his gerry curled ass in the bull pen and go with Lee/Bulldog Blanton/Hamels/Happ/Moyer.

14. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 9:24 am

    We should have a big protest outside of Citizens Bank Park if Happ gets the boot from the rotation.. in this city, we’re huge fans of giving us your all, and doing what is asked of you … which Happ has done. and for him to possibly lose out on his job because another guy has more career wins?? or whatever explanation they give us.. that’s HORSESH!T

15. Chuck Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 9:40 am

    It’s amazing that after last night that this is even up for debate. In my opinion, Happ clearly had the rotation spot BEFORE his stellar performance last night. His work last night only made that more clear.

    The idea of Pedro and Moyer “sharing” the 5th spot is sort of like what used to be called a spot starter/long reliever. Either guy can take on either role as the situation demands. It’s clear that Moyer has struggled this year, despite the 10 wins. But he’s a grinder and this team and city appreciates that. And it’s clear that Pedro is a future HOFer that has looked pretty good so far in getting ready. He deserves a start at the very least…..and then the Phillies can futher evaluate.

    Yeah….a big protest outside the ballpark may just be in order….I know I’ll be there.

16. Manny Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 9:41 am

    Absolutely, Don… though I really can’t see how they could send Happ to the pen after last night and the way the crowd cheered for him… it would not only be a slap in the face to Happ, but to the fans.

    Now, I’m completely behind the idea that Moyer should voluntarily move himself to the pen to help this team win, just like Maddux did with the Dodgers during the playoffs. I agree with Morris Buttermaker… I’d also lose a lot of respect for Moyer if he allows Happ to be moved to the pen. But before this happens, can’t Pedro make at least one more start in the minors? He needs to be able to come out in the 6th inning and do his thing, get that stamina up…

17. TODDFROMFAIRMOUNT Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 9:45 am

    There is no situation until we see Pedro pitch for the Big Club. There will be a situation at somepoint when we will need him to throw for us. If he is good, Moyer will have to sit. Its as simple as that. If he is bad, good for the bullpen to have the experience Pedro brings.

18. CT Phillies Fan Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 9:52 am

    Pedro still hasn;t proved anything, other then he can barely get through 6 innings against Double A kids….why does everyone say this was his last rehab start? He should stay in the minors until he can consistently pitch 6 innings against inferior talent…why bring him up to start for the big club, when we don’t even know if he can get through more than 4 or 5 innings? If he comes up at all, it should be in the pen…or share #5 with Moyer….Happ for Rookie of the Year!!

19. CMax Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 10:04 am

    Am I the only one that finds it ironic that this post calling for the end of the Jamie Moyer Era follows directly after a post telling us we could win a ticket autographed by…none other than Jamie Moyer.

20. NJ Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 10:09 am

    When was the last time a team heading into the playoff’s had a 6 man rotation with two veterans splitting starts? It’s a sure-fire way to create instability in the rotation. If Moyer’s bumped from the rotation then he’s being cut and the team will be eating something like $10m plus the cost of next years 5th starter.

    2008 Pedro: 20 starts 5.61 ERA in 109 innings with a 1.57 WHIP
    2009 Moyer 21 starts 5.51 ERA in 118.1 innings with a 1.47 WHIP

    I usually like what Amanda writes but this is just fuelling the Moyer-hate train. Yes his ERA on the years ugly but he pitched well last month and almost everyone was horrible in the series opener against the Rockies. Pedro has incentives to pitch out of the bullpen where he can fan guys at will.

    If you bump Moyer a start for Pedro and he pitches well then you have to cut Moyer, if he doesn’t and you go back to Moyer for the next start your fuelling diva in Pedro everyone fears. Is it really worth throwing everything out of whack in the rotation just to fit a 6 inning 3+ run Pedro? Doesn’t it make sense to put him in the pen where he can maximise his arsenal in short stints and leave Moyer where he is, can Pedro really be expected to be better than the same quality start Moyer’s just as likely to throw…?

21. NJ Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 10:13 am

    ^Moyer 5.55ERA

22. Mostone Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 10:17 am

    I agree, NJ.

23. Don M Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 10:21 am

    a 6-man rotation is not going to happen … why would you have Pedro, and Jamie Moyer make starts in place of Lee, Hamels, or Blanton ? … there is no chance they do that

24. Manny Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 10:25 am

    I agree too, NJ… Pedro should get more starts in the minors and get past the 6th inning there before we even consider him a legitimate rotation option. Keep Moyer for now in that final rotation spot until Pedro proves that he’s actually better and you minimize the risk of things going bad.

25. Chuck Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 10:38 am

    I’m not suggesting a 6 man rotation. What I can envision is either Moyer or Pedro making a “spot start” depending on the situation. They, in effect would both occupy that rotation slot and also pitch out of the pen when needed. That way the rest of the rotation gets its regular amount of starts.

26. Chuck Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 10:42 am

    And don’t forget to include Lopez in the mix….yeah, he sucked on Tuesday night out of the pen, but he’s clearly more of a starter and has done well in that role.

    This IS a good problem to have…

27. psujoe Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 10:42 am

    ^^^^^ Pedro needs to be able to finish 7 strong before I’d bring him up. He needs to show he can pitch from the stretch as well.

28. Paul Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 10:50 am

    I think you keep the rotation the same until Pedro proves he can get through 6+ innings.

    Then make a change.

    I do kind of like the idea of spot starting Moyer and Pedro in the 5 hole.

    Please keep Happ in the rotation though no matter what!

29. JeffS Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    I get scared watching Moyer pitch with all the baserunners, but I could say that about Cole right now, too. Still, I don’t trust Pedro to go lots of innings, which seems to me a reason to keep him in the pen as a long reliever. In that position, he could help the club, especially if someone gets lit up early, and still work on stretching out. And it would save face, if that’s an issue – you’re not in the pen because you cannot make the rotation; you’re in the pen to stretch out and work on going deeper into games for when you are moved into the rotation.

30. Chuck Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 11:10 am

    Isn’t it amazing that last week we (or a lot of us) were ready to ship Happ to Toronto because he was “pitching way over his head” but now it’s like he’s the second coming of Steve Carlton……. Philly Phans are indeed Phickle.

31. Dave Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 11:11 am

    Martinez still hasn’t proven anything to me. His start wouldn’t have been earth-shattering against MLB hitters. Against AA? Let’s hold off of this debate.

    Yes, we know Hamels is stinking it up. However, his ERA is still about 1 run lower than Moyer’s, who wasn’t signed as a 4th or 5th starter but as the third starter he was in 2008.

    We don’t hate Moyer (except for Geoff), we just recognize that he’s pitched pretty poorly this year, something his partisans fail to acknowledge.

32. Mike D. Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 11:14 am

    Why is everyone jumping on Pedro Martinez? Jesus, everyone here was burying Ruben for the signing, now we WANT him in our rotation? Pedro Martinez is the biggest threat to the 2009 Phillies because this dilemma is just a recipe for destabilizing the rotation. A Lee-Hamels-Blanton-Happ-Moyer rotation is more than respectable. Why f*** with it by starting Pedro? It’s almost as if Ruben feels like he has to start the guy just because he’s a former Cy Young winner. My dad said it best when I explained that the Phils signed him because he was a Cy Young winner: “so should they sign Steve Carlton too?”

    The Marlins are the biggest external threat to us. Moyer needs to start against them, and Pedro to the bullpen.

33. MP Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 11:16 am

    I can’t believe this is debateable either. The only way he could have done better is if he pitched a no-no or perfect game. When we have a guy in the top ten in three major categories in the whole league – he has the best case out of anyone. I don’t care Moyer’s won 10 games it is the most overblown stat. I agree with whoever said Moyer should either step aside or head to the phantom DL and give Pedro 2 starts. We need Happ in this rotation and we need him to contribute in the postseason. He’s earned it and he usually goes at least 7 strong innings which will keep the pen rested. We know what we get with Happ and Moyer is a complete toss up when we send him out there.

34. SDO Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    I like Doug D’s idea of letting Moyer and Pedro split the 5th spot. In fact, I was pondering the same idea last night as I drove home from the game. Pedro seems to have good stuff for 4 or 5 innings.

35. TODDFROMFAIRMOUNT Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 11:32 am

    There should be no discussion about 6 starters. I will not have missed starts from Lee, Cole, JA, or Joe The Pitcher.

    Pedro is fine from the windup but not from the stretch. Its been that way for a couple of years now. Hopefully he will get better with that the next couple a few starts.

36. Dhall Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    The situation will work itself out as Amaro has said over and over again. You guys are all talking about a non-issue. Whoever pitches better between Moyer and Pedro gets to start. Next question?

37. Baseballbriefs.com Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    Baseballbriefs.com tracking back Moyer: Odd Man Out…

    Baseballbriefs.com tracking back Moyer: Odd Man Out…

38. Moyer the Man Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    Moyer should not be placed in the BP just because a rookie named Happ is pitching just a little better than him right now. Moyer has the most wins on the team, and has WAY more wins than Happ in his CAREER (256 wins compared to only 9). Numbers speak for themselves. I can’t believe how ignorant you guys are when you suggest that Happ is better than Moyer in any way. If Moyer goes in the BP, this team is done for this year.

39. Corey Seidman Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    How quickly we change our minds. Several weeks ago, when I wrote a very similar piece, everybody argued and fought for Moyer to stay in the rotation.

40. Chuck Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    Like I said in one of the threads….Philly Phans are indeed Phickle…

41. Sean P. Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    I know this is thinking far out of the box, but since Moyer can only go 5 innings and Pedro can only do 5 innings.

    How about just use Moyer/ Martinez for one game?

42. ryan Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    Moyer is fine as a fifth starter. his numbers overall aren’t very good. but last night during the game they showed a stat that in his last ten starts he is 6-2 with a 4.17 ERA. not bad at all. especially for a fifth starter.

    Pedro is such a headache and a terrible move by Ruben . He wasted so much time money and energy on this guy who will not even be as good as Jamie Moyer is now. Ugghhh.. it’s such a friggin headache.

43. Bruce Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    Of course, it’s not for us to decide between Happ and Martinez for the the 5th spot in rotation. Amaro and Manuel will get together on a decision shortly and as I’ve posted earlier on another thread, Happ’s performance last night entitles him to remain in rotation. He opened Manuel’s eyes as the manager exclaimed…”"I think he showed me he wanted to stay in the rotation,” …”I was very impressed with him.”

    I have also stated that Martinez acknowledged the possibility of going to the bullpen when he is called up. He understood the current situation of surplus starters and as a professional and veteran of many years, he would do what is best for the team and accept a bullpen assignment. That role probably would best fit him for short durations of effective pitching. As noted previously (in another thread), his few rehabs indicates he starts strong and falters late due possibly to lack of stamina or hitters adjusting to his pitches second or third time around.

    Of course, the Moyer bashers are not to be taken seriously for obvious reasons. It’s mind boggling how they ignored Moyer’s fine performance for July (prior to his last start) where he compiled a 4-1 record and 3.30 ERA for five starts. Needless to say, Manuel has no intention to put Moyer in the bullpen knowing the 23 yr veteran’s majority of success in his career is as starter in making the most of his guile and experience. To put him in the bullpen would would be counterproductive and create devisiveness in the clubhouse.

    Latest team report (Yahoo Sports) indicated both Happ and Martinez are scheduled to pitch for next Tuesday. Hmm..m..

    I’ll take up the rally cry from another poster.. Don’t Vote For Pedro!

44. MTR Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    I don’t know why nobody has suggested this before but: Pedro the closer. His rehab starts have been very good for a few innings but he can’t get even AA players out for six innings. Not surprising for a guy who had constant arm problems when he was younger. Lidge has struggled. So, give Pedro a shot there. I think he could have a number of years left as long as his arm isn’t used too much.

45. Andrew Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    At least its not the dipsy making the 1 millionth story or post about happ to the bullpen
    What did i tell you from day 1?

46. NateB Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    Amaro said that Happ is safe. He’ll stay in the rotation. That’s good news.

47. terry Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 6:16 pm

    JA HAPP should not stay in the rotation, period. Id take Moyer over HAPP any day, any where, any time.

48. Whack8888 Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 7:00 pm

    And of course, to make things comical, Moyer will probably pitch a no hitter in his next start against the Marlins.

49. Dice Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 7:28 pm

    Look the solution is simple, go with Lee-Blanton-Moyer-Haap-Martinez and send Cole ‘Head in the Clouds’ Hamels to the bullpen, cause when he loses his focus, as we’ve seen ALL YEAR, he gets hammered.

50. Amanda Orr Says:
    August 6th, 2009 at 7:51 pm

    I still think Happ is pitching over his head. But he is doing very well right now and he deserves a spot in the rotation. He is the better option over Moyer/Pedro right now.

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