Phillies Nation

67 Responses to “Should Happ be the Closer?”

1. Jeff Y. Says:
   September 24th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

   It’s worth a shot. Lidge should not even pick up a baseball in a Phillies uniform.

2. Griffin Says:
   September 24th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

   It’s a better than Lidge, but how long would it take to get Happ’s arm able to pitch on back to back days? Also, after Chollie tried to end Pedro’s season, will Pedro be healthy enough to make his playoff start(s)?

   Although the Phils did this with Myers in ‘07, I don’t have any faith in them doing something as creative as this.

3. Chris.I Says:
   September 24th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

   As much as I would be ”HAPP”Y to see this go into effect as soon as possible…There is one problem…He’s pitching tonight, and he wouldn’t be ready to take the mound in the 9th inning until monday or tuesday. I think its a great idea to give him a shot before the Playoff’s to see how good he performs in that role.

4. Kevin Says:
   September 24th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

   Definitely not Pedro, he leads all pitchers with the most lead-off home runs given up… and his first inning ERA is much higher than his later inning’s ERA. He likes to settle into games, I don’t see him being a shut-down 1 inning closer.

   Happ can definitely pitch out of the pen, but if this were a possibility the Phils were considering – they might have eased him back into the rotation with a couple of spot appearances out of the pen, maybe in the ninth inning – but then again, our SP is dwindling and we needed him back in the rotation.

5. Manny Says:
   September 24th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

   Interesting idea, but first we gotta see what happens today with him on the mound.

6. ryan Says:
   September 24th, 2009 at 1:27 pm

   I think ya really gotta think outside the box here. I’m willing to try anything. do you realize that in 2006 Adam Wainright was only 3 for 5 on save opportunities for the entire season before the playoffs. They were really taking a shot in the dark with him. Same with David Price who was pretty dominant at least for the ALCS against Boston last year when he had never been a closer. I say we try anything. Maybe Bastardo. Maybe Happ. Maybe Pedro. Whatever works. I’d still go situational and use Eyre or Romero against lefties for the ninth.

7. George Says:
   September 24th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

   I can’t see why people seem to think Walker would be any kind of an option. His stats show that he has not been an effective closer. He’s saved 34 but has also blown 14. He’s better off where he’s at. Lidge has saved 31 0f 42. There’s not much difference. Walker is effective where he’s used at present. It could be a mistake to move him to the closer’s role, as it would weaken the Phil’s bullpen in the earlier innings. You don’t replace awful with slightly less awful.

   Happ is probably the only option, unless Myers can come back. Martinez has been pretty bad in the first innings of his starts. While it might be nice to use Happ as closer now, one or two “practice” games in the regular season won’t really make much difference. He can do the job or he can’t, simple as that.

8. Don M Says:
   September 24th, 2009 at 1:44 pm

   I dont think anyone will be “moved to the closers role” … but we’re a couple games ahead .. it would be foolish NOT to try some different options before the season ends

   At this point, Condrey, Walker, Park have been under the radar kinda guys from the bullpen

   I think Walker is the only one with closing experience … I bet Condrey could do it, cause he throws gas and doesn’t get scared to throw inside, etc. BUT.. he also walks people, which isn’t good

   at least if you’re giving up hits, the guys behind you have a chance to make a play.. there is no defense for the walk

9. john fire Says:
   September 24th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

   I think Happ would be fantastic in that role. His poise on the mound has been obvious all year – whenever he gets into jams, he’s cool as a cucumber and usually works his way out of it.

   That said, it’ll never happen. Ever.

10. Pat Gallen Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    I kind of agree with John Fire. It’s probably not going to happen. But never say never. Lets see if Charlie can pull something out of his hat here and surprise us all.

11. Philly Geoff Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    If he is healthy it could work… was Wainwright a starter when he went on his post season run a few years back… or was he a reliever in the minors, and they turned him into a starter?

    Not comparing the two, but it is not unprecedented to move a rookie starter to closer. (See David Price last year… he was a starter)

12. Jeff Y. Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    It’s obvious that Lidge is done for the season. I would let Walker close for the remainder of the year.

13. Manny Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    Imagine J.A. Happ getting tackled by Ryan Howard as they clinch the WS title!!

14. rtbamam Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 2:41 pm

    Anyone is better than that pathectic excuse of a human LIDGE

15. Adam G Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    Tyler Walker… just have to try it.
    Happ doesnt have the stuff for the role.

16. Adam G Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    Wainwright worked the whole year in relief. Didnt start till 07.

17. Dave Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    Georgie, you do realize that a BS do not just occur when someone is closing out the game.
    So Walker hasn’t gone 34/46 in save situations. He’s saved 34 games and blown 12, some of which no doubt occurred when he was not in a save situation.

18. Dave Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    *BS does

19. Brooks Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    I remember when Chahlie took Lidge out of the game on Sept the 8th, he said that Lidge was his closer but the team comes first. You have to do whatever it takes to win.
    Why the sudden reversal? Why, after the lead off baserunner in the 9th got to third base with only 1 out was Lidge left in? Why, after allowing the tying run to score and there were still men on base did he leave Lidge in?
    Why has Chahlie gone back on what he said? “.. you have to do whatever it takes to win..”

20. joedad Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    F off rtbamam.

    The only problem with Happ closing is that he may not be able to pitch on back to back days. He could because he is young but you generally want to have at least a week or 2 of conditioning your body to going all out for one inning rather than pacing yourself for 7+.

21. Kate Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    I was actually thinking about this last night as I was falling asleep. Or why not Pedro? We can’t have like a 6 man starting rotation in the playoffs.

22. The Original Chuck P Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    Game 1… Cliff Lee goes as long as he can and we bring in Joe Blanton if need be

    Game 2… Cole Hamels goes as long as he can and we bring in Walker/Madson/Lidge

    Game 3… Pedro/Happ go as long as they can and hand the ball off to whoever is not pitching… with a day off before game 3, we’ll have all of the bullpen arms ready by game 3, only if need be.

    Game 4… Joe Blanton with Cliff Lee in relief

    Game 5… Cole Hamels to the pen…

    If we do it like that, we get three games (1,3 and 5) that don’t require a reliever… Lee/Blanton are both capable of giving us a couple of innings in relief on 3 days rest. Gallardo did it last year with the Brewers…

23. Greg V. Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    Sure, why not Happ? Why not anybody at this point? I’d rather throw Taschner out there! I love Lidge, I’ll never speak a bad word abut the man for ‘08. BUT HE CAN’T CLOSE GAMES AS OF SEPTEMBER 24!!!!!!

24. hotstove Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

    Im thinking we use differnt guys when leftys to start a inning you go eyre. then righties madson and taschner or go Happ

25. NJ Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    Vote for Pedro! Put simply Smoltz did it and so could Pedro who could extend his hall of fame career and make more money by closing than starting. The only other option is Myers which worries the hell out of me.

    ps. you don’t screw with your starters in relief until game 7 of the world series (unless you’ve burnt your bullpen)…

26. The Original Chuck P Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    Disagree, NJ… Brew Crew used Gallardo in games 1 and 4 (pen) last year (earmarked CC, who pitched game 2 as their game 5 starter). The key to winning playoff series’ is doing whatever the hell you need to do to get a win in any game that you’ve got that chance to get a win. Don’t blow leads, don’t squander opportunities and put teams away… I don’t trust anyone stepping into the game in the 9th inning and I’m avoiding it at all costs.

    The way they do it, you get days off after games 2 and 4 and 5. SO Cliff Lee could pitch in relief in game 4 and be ready to pitch game 1 on three days rest. Realistically, you would only have to use Lee in relief IF the game was close (with us holding a lead). More likely, you’re going to have a manageable lead OR be behind (in which case, go with the guys that are used to pitching in that situation… Eyre, Taschner, Condrey, etc.). The key, in my opinion, is having Blanton work out of the pen in game one… he’s probably our strongest pitcher and is the guy that I worry about the least. I like our chances in any 7 game series… we have to get through the first round.

27. jt Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 4:14 pm

    charlie continues to put one guy ahead of an entire team…how do you think the guys that play hard the entire game watching lidge come in and blow 11 games they worked their butts off in…i know we don’t have many other options madson suffers from 9th aphobia,parks injured,so is myers and the rest of the guys don’t have the stuff to be a closer…they gotta start warming happ or pedro up to close because lidge is destorying the team anybody but him please.

28. Pat Gallen Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    SO, what then is the pitch count if we have no one to go in the 9th? Can Lee go 130 everytime?

29. GWFightinsFan Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 4:35 pm

    I like the idea of Happ as a closer…its certainly worth a shot…

30. The Original Chuck P Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    JT- I think that Charlie’s trying to do what is best for this team. A healthy/confident Lidge is best for this team. If he magically turned it around in time for the playoffs, this team would be better off and all of these blown saves would have been worth it. That’s why he stands behind J-Roll when he’s slumping and Howard when he’s swinging at garbage and Utley when he’s dealing with issues and… in the end, he knows that it’s the best thing for the team.

    Unfortunately, Lidge is not going to be healthy/confident…

    So, at some point, the memo that Charlie needs to send to his guys should read, “We’re going to do whatever we need to do to win playoff games/series…” You can’t waste opportunities and you can’t give away games… simple as that. So Brad, your leash was just shortened quite a bit… first hiccup and you’re outta here.

    In 1965, Sandy Koufax started game 5 against the twins… he pitched a complete game shutout. Then he pitched game 7 on two days rest… he pitched a three hit shutout. Lee in game 1, relief in game 4… Blanton in game 4, relief in game 1.

31. The Original Chuck P Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    CC Sabathia pitched his final four games of the 2008 season each on 3 days rest…

32. Dhall Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 4:44 pm

    I’m all for it. Lidge shouldn’t even be allowed into CBP without a ticket.

33. j reed Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 4:46 pm

    You can’t have a sample for comparision when the two things being compared have different time intervals unless its stated beforehand. i.e. comparing tyler walker’s career stats. to lidge’s numbers this year. What is more important is to look at the context under which Walker was closing: he was a asked to do it after some else failed.
    Could Happ be a closer. Sure but keep in mind that its alot different to have runners on base against the braves in August, then it is against the Cardinals in October. Besides a reoccuring oblique strain is a prelude to surgery. The oblique attaches to the rib cage and is used primarily in rotating the torso which is the primary movement in batting and pitching. Just how much adaptive shortening the surrounding muscles will under go to protect the injured area is hard to say, but more importantly is how much will this affect his delivery. Too much of a liability for post season play I’d say. This isn’t like a calf strain…it is one of the most difficult muscle injuries to recover from… just goggle it.
    And myers….ut, mike lowel, a-rod all with the same injuries as myers…the big difference as a pitcher myers must bear his body’s weight one leg to initiate a pitch…this is leg that corresponds to his injured hip. Furthermore he pushes off the rubber with that leg. 3 or 4 months of recovery…for that and now a shoulder injury. Plus there is the normal post-op pain in the hip taht he, like mike lowell has experienced. This is alot of uncetainity for a position that is inherently mercurial.
    Ultimately none of it really matters…the blood is in the water and other teams will smell the fear from bull pen. The last thing you want in an emotionally charged atmosphere is loose batters who no longer set themselves up to fail because they can’t get your bull pen’s dominance out of their heads. We have failed to establish anything other than we are vulnerable. The powers that be lacked any creativity to solve this problem when there was time…the bed has been crapped. Also i can’t help think of the added pressure on the starters knowing that any lead once they leave the game is about as safe as scuba diving dressed in a meat suit off the coast of Australia.

34. Jeff Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    Charlie has to give up hope on Lidge. This team will make the playoffs but it costs us the best record overall. Everyone knew Lidge would blow up last night.

35. jt Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 4:52 pm

    rollins was benched earlier in the season for like 4 games when he was in that horrendous slump…charlie has to know lidge is done why did he pull him out of that game against the nats?he should of been pulled with that guy on 3rd with less than 2 outs even a blind guy could tell lidge will not get the next 2 outs without him scoring.

36. Don M Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    This is why players on the team consider our fans to be FRONT RUNNERS …

    they just won the World Series last year.. probably thanks to Brad Lidge more than any other player in 2008 ..

    and because he’s struggling this year (eventhough we’re still in 1st place, by a pretty comfortable margin).. people are ready to run him out of town..

    I’m almost embarassed to call myself a Phillies fan, after reading half of the comments on here

37. tm Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 4:58 pm

    basically anyone other than the guy name brad lidge should be the closer.

    it’s seriously a joke in the 9th inning. no opposing team is scared/intimated of lidge and they’re probably looking forward to facing him because they know they have a pretty good chance to score runs and brad rarely is going to have an easy 1,2,3 inning

38. Don M Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 4:58 pm

    Charlie isn’t as dumb as you all want him to be … he realizes that he needs to get Lidge corrected more than he needs homefield advantage for two postseason series

    If we have home field, but no definite closer.. we’re going to lose anyway…

    You’ll see some different guys getting chances over the 10 days.. and since all those guys sh!t the bed too, it falls back to Lidge .. lets support him instead of bash him ..

    Holler Back yo’s

39. jdoze Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 4:58 pm

    man i would love to see them do something like this. you dont need someone that throws 97 closing games just someone that has control and can get 3 outs. but you know damn well its gonna be lidge or madson from here on out. i would imagine madson but you never know with charlie.

40. j reed Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 5:01 pm

    just because i think the management failed the bull pen doesn’t mean i don’t like charlie or think he should be fired. 1] we know he just doesn’t get pitchers, 2] this team is like teflon coated Kevlar. However, it could not withstand the shock if charlie was fired. The stituation just sucks dog farts.

41. Phillies Fan in NYC Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 5:14 pm

    Interesting info:

    Since the save became an official statistic in 1969, only one team has won the World Series with a closer blowing as many as Brad Lidge’s 11 this year. Dan Quisenberry of the 1985 Royals blew 12 saves.

42. rtbamam Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 5:15 pm

    Hey joedad f off yourself

43. rtbamam Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 5:21 pm

    by the way joedad what makes you an authority on baseball. If you have something to say state it there is no need to be arrogant about it

44. Jeff Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 5:25 pm

    your wrong don. We are all Phillies fans. Yes lidge did great last year but this is this year. if mcnabb was throwing 5 picks a game and losing the game you pull him. bottom line.

45. j reed Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 5:25 pm

    Don M. – i really like lidge but putting him out there is cruel. Because of the elevated adrenaline the muscle memory of that stituation is etched deeper into the neuromuscular system…so if their was a problem with his mechanics during these failed which there is evidence of, each failure can encode more failure even if the the mechanics are corrected in practice sessions. If there is still a ghost in the machine then as soon as he takes the mound in a real game stituation the brain recalls the same neuromuscular pattern he thinks he’s corrected because the stimulus of the stituation is too strong. it is like have a virus you eliminated from your files but not your registry…as soon as you turn on your computer the bad code reloads itself. Some are more suspectable to the effects than others…i think that is what is going on with lidge…he needs time and a sport pyschologist . He’ll always be aces in my book eventhough he makes me want to throw my hammer through the tv screen.

46. Matt Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 5:32 pm

    Don M.,

    I completely agree with you. Both posts, actually. Lidge was huge last year, and without him we wouldn’t have won the World Series. Now, one bad (albeit, terrible) year goes by and people are calling for his head, saying he shouldn’t be allowed in the park without buying a ticket, etc. Hearing stuff like this makes me almost embarrassed to be a Phillies fans, and to be associated with some of you people. Yeah, I know it’s “what have you done for me lately?” but you can’t forget what Lidge did last year. I don’t think he should still be closing for us, I think we should try some other options, but I’m not wishing ill upon him or calling him a pathetic excuse for a human being like some people. You don’t think Lidge hears all this stuff, people bashing him? I’m sure he hears it, he probably can’t even go out to dinner in Philly without being treated like he killed their mothers. You don’t have to be all “Oh it’s ok, Brad. Just try your hardest! xoxo!!!11!!” but at the same time, don’t treat him like he’s the worst thing since AIDs…

47. Don M Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 5:40 pm

    Not if your backup QB couldn’t lead the team either.. and the year before McNabb had just lead us to the SuperBowl

48. Don M Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 5:45 pm

    and if “McNabb” (Lidge) was throwing 5 picks per game… his backup (Madson) has been worse, percentage wise

    … yet the team was still in 1st place, and playoff bound again, for the 2nd straight year with him as the starting QB …

    you would stick with McNabb in that role

    …

49. Phan in TN Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 6:00 pm

    sorry to be off topic but I just got a bit misty eyed

    i found the audio clips of harry kalas calling those games on this site.

    thanks for keeping those, gentlemen

    hope you don’t mind that I downloaded them and will play them every once in a while.

50. Jeff Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 6:19 pm

    If a guy is not getting the job done you cant keep running him out there. Its not last year, its this year. Just because a running back has over 1500 yards rushing doesnt mean they will keep him the next year. Brad cannot keep closing. The season will go under. As a manager you do whats best for the team.

51. Chapps Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 6:29 pm

    Everyone you are failing to see the only solution that makes any sense, what for it, here it comes……….Jamie Moyer.

    Think about it he is the exact opposite of what you would expect from a closer and he normally has a high rate of success the first time through a lineup. Tell me that Manny or Albert wouldn’t be completely thrown for a loop leading off the ninth and facing Old Man Moyer. Not only could it work but it would work.

    And I know he has something like zero career saves, but you know what so did Mariano before he got his first. And if anyone is crazy enough to use Moyer in a save situation Charlie is.

52. joedad Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 6:44 pm

    rtbamam said “Anyone is better than that pathectic excuse of a human LIDGE”

    So the guy is perfect in 2008 and was one of the reasons the Phils are WFC and now that he can’t pitch he is a “pathetic excuse for a human”? Criticize his pitching but calling him a “pathetic excuse for a human” is WAY out of line so my request for you to go F yourself has not changed.

53. TrappedInNYC Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 7:02 pm

    Just for yucks I hope Manuel lets Lidge pitch the 9th tonight…

54. Michael Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 7:04 pm

    i agree. happ should be our closer.

55. mikeB Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 7:14 pm

    Good idea for Happ being the closer in the post season. The fourth starting slot should go to Pedro Martinez for his pitching experience and the experience he has in post season play. Moyer for long relief or if something happens to one of the starters. Hard to say at this time because of injuries who is all going to be available for the bullpen to put on the post season roster.

56. rtbamam Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 7:19 pm

    right back at you joedad

57. j reed Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    phillies fan in ny city – interesting about dan quisenberry…were any of those BS in the post season?

58. Ryk Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 7:42 pm

    @ Don M -
    I completely agree with your post. I do feel that eventhough Lidge has the label of closer, it doesn’t mean he should get the ball in any game when a save opportunity arrises. The job of the manager is to give your team the best opportunity to win in every game. Part of that means giving the ball to the pitcher who has the best chance of recording 3 outs without giving up a run. Yeah, the options are thin with the decimated bullpen, but with his struggles this season, you can’t honestly say that Brad Lidge is that man for that job at this moment.
    Should we draw and quarter him? Absolutely not. But Cholly needs to give Lidge an opportunity to correct himself before throwing him into the lion’s den. With every blown save, Lidge’s head is going to be that much more difficult to fix. I’m not a shrink. I don’t know how to get our man’s mojo back. But at this time, high-stress situations just aren’t working out for him.
    He WILL get it back. 2008 was proof that no matter how hard he hit rock-bottom, he can always rebound and become a stud. For right now, I think he should be given mop-up duties….unless that messes with his head even more. Anyone here have a PhD?

59. Ryk Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 7:45 pm

    @ j reed. Bingo.

60. dolly keen Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 7:46 pm

    WHY CANT THEY PITCH LIDGE IN THE FIRST, MADSON IN THE SECOND, THEN LET THE STATER FINISH THE NEXT SEVEN.

    DOLL

61. j reed Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 7:59 pm

    i agree joedad…knee jerk reactions and snarky quips are fine in the game or post game hangover. Criticism is fine and is part of being a fan…other than gambling, sports are great entertainment and without good and bad criticism it would be meaningless…look at the marlins. But calculated nastiness esp. to players on your own team…there is enough ugliness in life and in the world. Is it wrong i don’t know, but it gets tiresome. If the guy is doing jell-o shots off of strippers every night well then that’s different territory. It honestly pains me to see Lidge go thru this and I don’t care if he makes more money in a day than i do in a year. Actually its irrelevant. like I said before it just sucks dog farts.

62. LH Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 8:27 pm

    j reed – the injury report on Happ was a good perceptive. I’d rather Happ take his chances in a the late innings. But I guess less starting work and more pen work would probably lead to more preparation, and of course less rest. The Phillies have the same outlook since their starting their young star tonight. My fingers are crossed and may the baseball gods shine on his shoulders through tonight and the post season.

63. bob Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 8:31 pm

    People need to lay off Lidge somewhat. He shouldn’t get into CBP without a ticket, give me a break. The man deserves respect for giving young and old Phils fans alike the biggest thrill of their sports lives. That alone deserves respect and admiration.

    What that said it seems that Lidge is done for the year 2009. He just does not have it any more. I would entertain using Happ or Walker as the closer, depending on the health of the pen. Keys words, health of the pen. I don’t see Lidge closing full time in the postseason, but I see him in relief with certain matchups.

    At this point with the state of injuries, ANY arm is a good arm.

    Chuck said it best “a healthy and confident Lidge is best”. Since this probably will not happen, guess Im for the pen by committee or using what combo works. We have enough of a lead to try this and lets see where this goes. Quality starts = continued rest for the pen.

64. bob Says:
    September 24th, 2009 at 8:32 pm

    When I said done for 2009 I meant as full time closer…

65. Dr. Baseball Says:
    September 25th, 2009 at 3:09 am

    Lidge is gonna be awesome in the playoffs mark my words

66. Closing Soap Opera Doesn’t Have An Answer | Phillies Nation Says:
    September 25th, 2009 at 8:27 am

    [...] Should Happ be the Closer? [...]

67. crashburnalley.com » Blog Archive » Charlie Manuel Can Adapt! Says:
    September 30th, 2009 at 1:09 am

    [...] off of the DL and is still fighting his way to full-strength — who’s it going to be? J.A. Happ? Nope. Durbin, Condrey, Walker? No, no, no. So, although Amaro never named a closer, he may as well [...]

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