Phillies Nation

98 Responses to “Cheap Starters on the Market”

1. Geoff Says:
   November 10th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

   What about RH trade candidates other than Halladay?

2. Geoff Says:
   November 10th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

   And, if you watched the WS, most of their pitching got lit up, so they need help in starting and relief….

3. Petey Pablo Says:
   November 10th, 2009 at 2:40 pm

   There is no reason to sign someone like Harden, Bedard or Washburn. The price will be too high for what you get relative to what we already have. The only new SP I want to see is Halladay. No reason not to go all-in; come 2011 this team is going to look a lot different, and there’s no way that Howard, Werth, Vic, Rollins and Hamels will all be here.

   Since Antropolous has basically come out and said the price will be lower than what Ricciardi wanted, offer them Happ, Brown (Taylor can be 4th OF next year so I’d rather not trade him), and some kind of throw-in and see what Toronto says. Lee/Halladay/Hamels/Blanton and one of Moyer/KK/Drabek sounds like the best rotation in the NL (and maybe baseball) to me.

4. steve-o Says:
   November 10th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

   I’m mainly in agreement with Petey Pablo. Mostly on the fact that 2010 is an “all-in” type year. Rollins is on the downslide, and is potentially in his last year with the phils. Howard has 2 left, as does Ibanez. Werth is a free agent after this year. The Phillies have 2010 to go for it again, and Halladay is the piece that can do that for them. The problem of course is obviously 2011 and beyond. It’s what makes me glad i’m not a GM.

5. Michael N. Says:
   November 10th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

   I’d give up Taylor first because well he’s ready right now and by the time Ibanez is done Brown would be ready if he stays on track. So i think a deal of lets say Taylor, Gose and Worley or Happ Would get it done.

6. psujoe Says:
   November 10th, 2009 at 3:08 pm

   The more I look at payroll the more obvious it becomes the staff will be Lee, Hamels, Blantan, Happ and Moyer/Kendrick/Drabek. Phils aren’t going to bump the payrol 15 million to swap Happ and Halladay. I wish they would, but I just don’t see it.

7. Geoff Says:
   November 10th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

   I see them trading Happ and maybe another prospect or two for a RH upgrade over Happ. Not really Halladay or someone that expensive, but someone solid. I cant think of a name yet though to match that type.

8. Pat Gallen Says:
   November 10th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

   Wow, no one wants to bite on a guy who could potential turn this team around? I’d love Harden as the 5th guy at a cheap rate or Sheets too and hope they can return to form. The Phillies have some money to throw around here and they could be big time pieces.

   As much as I would love Halladay, does it make sense financially? You have a guy in Happ that you have control over for a few more years that will give you good numbers and Taylor who should be a starter here after next season.

   Halladay would be most likely, a one and done scenario. Plus, he doesnt guarantee you anything. You need to keep an eye on the future while your still winning.

9. George Says:
   November 10th, 2009 at 3:15 pm

   I don’t like any of the high risk/high reward pitchers out there. If anyone gets injured, they’re no longer bullpen options. Harden and Bedard are 6 inning pitchers, and that equals bullpen stress. There are better options, maybe not stuff-wise, but better health-wise.

   I might go for Halliday with a Happ/Taylor/low level prospect offer. His salary is high, though, and it might cost in other areas. If he is 33, he’s not one you’d give a long term contract to, either. Two, maybe three years, tops. He’d probably be a one year acquisition, and therefore might not be worth what it would take to get him.

   The Phils will have worries in 2011. But by then, Brown could likely replace Werth. If they keep Taylor, too, there’s no worry over Ibanez. It’s Rollins I’d be concerned about most, because he seems to be losing his hitting edge, some range, and some speed. There’s no telling what can happen with free agency, so every team has the same potential problems. At least the Phils have some prospects, and more money than many other teams. They should be able to field a good team in 2011, just not the same team.

10. BS Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    @Michael: Taylor might be important depending on Werth’s price for 2011 and beyond. Remember, there’s no guarantee we’ll resign him. It won’t hurt Taylor to spend a full year down in AAA or split some time in the majors in case of an injury. I agree that Brown should be ready by the time Ibanez retires.

    @ Petey 2010 isn’t an “all-in” year. We have Howard, Ibanez, Lidge, Madson signed until 2011. Rollins and Romero club option through 2011. Victorino arbitration through 2011. Hamels through 2012. Utley to 2013. Werth, Lee, and Blanton are no guarantee of course. But our team for the next 2 years will look pretty much like it does now. So we should be able to slot in Taylor, Brown and Drabek as necessary.

    If Harden’s price is $6-8 mil, I’d definitely take a shot at him. That’s barely more than a full season of Pedro’s cost, and Harden’s stuff is arguably better than Cliff’s or Cole’s stuff. He’s always had his injury problems, but it’d be less of an issue if he missed 5 or 10 starts, since he’d just be a #3 for us.

    I’m willing to wait to see how Hamels rebounds next year before making a move for Halliday. I’d imagine Ruben’s going to do the same.

11. Al in Seattle Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    Ruben and Co. should stay far away from Wash and Bedard. Wash is a flyball machine and his inflated numbers in Seattle were caused by pitching in spacious Safeco Field and the M’s terrific outfield defense. Washburn would get lit up like New Years Eve at Times Square if he pitched at the bank. As for Bedard, he has outstanding stuff, but he is extremely fragile and not good in the clubhouse. I say the Phils should sign Sheets or Harden on an incentive laden deal if the price is right.

12. BS Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    With that said, a Happ + OF deal for Halladay would be something I’d consider. But a 3 or 4 for 1 smorgasbord of top prospects and JA Happ is too much.

13. Ed R. Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    I would love Harden and would take him in a heart beat but I think he will end up in Seattle.

    Bedard is a jerk off from what I am told, I want nothing to do with him. Besides, they have enough LH pitchers.

    Washburn was totally awful when he went to Detroit, not sure I would take a flyer on him.

14. Don M Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    I don’t think Harden will come “cheap”

    Somebody will give him solid guaranteed money,.. with incentive loaded bonuses at the end of it ..

    RedSox will outbid anyone ..

    Harden has some of the best “stuff” in baseball, but can’t seem to stay healthy.
    …
    …

    The thing with Taylor, is that he has the higher-rated Domonic Brown right behind him, Brown came up and played well at AA-Reading last season . He hit .280 in 37 games at that level … figure by the end of this season, he’ll be in AAA …

    So before the end of this season we’ll have Taylor and Brown both playing AAA ball.. Werth coming to the tail end of his current contract, and in line for a long-term deal, with some serious money coming his way

    If he was a Free Agent this year.. I think he would be ranked behind Matt Holliday, but ahead of Jason Bay … Werth really is that good..

    tough spot to be in, decision, but great problem to have for the organization

15. Ed R. Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    I agree with you Don. I’d take Werth over Bay because he is a better fielder and can run the bases better. He also has more raw power and did lead the league in pitches per at bat.

16. Ari Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    I would be wary of Harden, Smoltz, Lowry, and Hill. Not so much because of anything against them, but simply because the Phils have a plethora of number 3 type starters already (Pedro, Blanton, Moyer, Happ), plus Park who could be bumped up to starter in case of injury later in the season, and Myers who they apparently let walk. I certainly wouldn’t object to another stud like Halliday because that’s a clear upgrade, but we don’t need any more mid-level starters.

17. joe Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    yeah there is someone i want to see in red pinstripes

    Kyle Drabek

18. Havoc Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    I really didn’t expect to be talking Halladay anymore, but here we go again huh?

    If we can get a trade of Halladay for Happ, Taylor, & a young prospect I’d take it. Hell I’ll be first in line to get my Halladay jersey even if it ends up being a one year deal.

    Assuming that payroll is a concern for the team, i’m guessing it’s unlikely we’ll go after him. I wouldn’t mind taking a shot at Sheets or Harden if you could get them to agree to an incentive laden deal. You’ll have decisions to make through spring training though unless Moyer retires.

19. bfo_33 Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    The staff as is is good enough to contend, should take the division, but it will have postseason issues. If…… you could get Harden on an incentive laden deal, he’d be worth it – fits the bill as a rhp with filthy stuff. Unfortunately, there are enough teams out there with sp needs that someone will overpay him. It all depends on whether he’ll take a chance by going to a winning team, or chase the $$ (and wind up Texas or Baltimore). I think Halladay will go much cheaper than last year (Happ, Taylor/Brown, + a low prospect), but still not worth a one year rental. If he’ll negotiate an extension, he’s the best bet. Harden 2nd choice. After that, I think we have better/cheaper internal options.

20. Chuck Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    Thing is…..can Harden stay healthy enough for the Phils to even consider him as an option??….if so, then yeah….great..

    That’s a big IF..

21. dudley monk Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    Frankly, I like Brad Penney. He throws hard. Rich Harden is next in line. I do not like giving up several players for Roy Halladay, as he will be 33 and his cost will be huge. Perhaps I am cheap, or dumb, but that is how I feel, especially when giving up too much young talent.

22. dudley monk Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 4:12 pm

    After some research, it appears that 140 innings is all you can expect from Rich Harden, even if he is healthy. Is that enough? I don’ know.

23. j reed Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    Jason Bay is however a smarter ball player than Werth who has alot of Jeff Spicoli moments through out the season. That’s one of places the Yankees outshined us: smart baseball. That said, go for Halladay…if we think we are going to head back to the WS then get him because he owns both the Yankees and Red Sox who we would most likely see. I thought this line-up had turned a corner from the way they played in the NL pay-off series, but this WS proved me wrong…evil phillies showed up at the plate. Until this line-up gets more consistent I’d invest in RIGHT HANDED pitching. Halladay is that and yes one the best GROUND BALL pitchers in the league. My only concern is the groin pull he suffered last year….don’t want a Sports Hernia warm ing the bench next year. I could live with out Happ, I don’t think he is as good as his 2009 year suggests.

24. j reed Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    Brad is a Bad Penny….Either we go quality upper escheolon guy or if we go mid level then he has to be a sinkerballer, GB pitcher and not left handed. The sinkerballers like Pinero are the Honda Accord, Toyota Camrys of pitching…nothing fancy but with a good infield will get the job done on the cheap unless your Halladay who happens to be the best in the business. He also comes with 3 other quality pitches. What did we learn from the Yankees…you need varierty to keep that line-up from hell off balance.

25. j reed Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 4:26 pm

    I hope Pinero isn’t left handed…i didn’t check…DOH!

26. Ed R. Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 4:27 pm

    Smarter is an understatement.

    As for sports hernia, the best medicine for it is rest. Halladay has the next couple months off, he will be fine come next year. Plus, being a pitcher is not the absolute worst thing ever for a Sports Hernia. Now if you get a S.H and are a hockey player, forget it. Unless you rest for months, that S.H will never, ever go away.

27. Ed R. Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 4:28 pm

    Pinero is a RH.

28. Dan S Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 4:32 pm

    If they Phillies have to trade Michael Taylor or Domonic Brown they should trade Taylor. Taylor is closer to the big leagues and as of now the Phillies don’t need him with all-stars patrolling left, right, and center field. So if they have to choose between the two they should go with Taylor. Not to mention Domonic Brown is ranked higher in the Phillies’ prospects.

29. Don M Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 4:35 pm

    Honestly.. I think Werth is one of the most heady players in baseball… multiple times throwing behind runners in tag-up situations

    aggressive baserunning, delayed steals ..

    he is a playmaker.. got picked off 1st base by a Catcher who made a great play, throwing a bullet behind the Left-Handed Ibanez (I think).. and caught Werth two steps off the bag

    …
    We can’t afford Joel Pinero .. or Eric Bedard.. or any other big name player you can think of ..

    I heard Kelvim Escobar … think of a low risk-high reward player for who the Phillies will target. They don’t have the money to fool with any high-risk/high-reward guys like Harden or Sheets .. because if it backfires it kills you

30. mick Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    Do not even think about trading Happ–he is young and only going to get better.Lee,a refreshed Hamels, Blanton and Happ will give the Phils all they need for starters. Bolster the bullpen a bit and let the world compete for the 5th spot and the Phillies will be back in the Oct. mix.Figgins on base percentage would sure look good at the top of the order

31. Don M Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

    basically we’re confusing the words “Smarter”

    with “Slower” -and- “Less Aggressive”

32. Georgie Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 4:45 pm

    Werth and Vic both have “Spicoli” moments, which they can get away with sometimes, but not in the playoffs. I am a defensive FREAK, I don’t expect major league players to make dumb mistakes, it really bugs me more than anything else.

33. Phils fan in NYC Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 4:46 pm

    to the 3B issue… has anyone considered scott rolen for the spot? I know you guys threw batteries at him or something, but he’s the same vacuum at 3B that Feliz was with much better plate discipline. Maybe now that he doesn’t have to be the face and voice of the team, he could fit in a little better? I don’t know, you guys tell me… i didn’t live there when he was such a pain in the ass there.

34. Don M Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 4:51 pm

    Figgins sucks in the playoffs so far in his career …

    he’s a hell of a player, but i dont think we have $10 M per year for the next 5 years for another light-hitting, speed guy

    how many of them do you need in a lineup?

    …
    I HIGHLY doubt that Halladay comes our way.. and I don’t think that a package of HAPP and TAYLOR is even anywhere near what it will cost to land him

    BUT.. I would trade Happ without any hesitation, if the return is a Cy Young caliber pitcher .. cause i’m fairly certain that Happ ain’t winning more than Halladay for the remainder of their careers

    Happ is a very good pitcher.. whose value is probably as high as it will ever be, and since the Top Prospect in our organization happens to be Kyle Drabek.. it’s not like your mortgaging the future if you move Happ for a win-now option

    …
    Lot of people thinking Moyer is finished.. Im pretty sure the Phillies will see what he’s got left in the tank, and count him as a possibility for their long-reliever/spot-starter out of the bullpen

35. Don M Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    No chance Scott Rolen comes back here, none..

    …
    The batteries were thrown at J.D. Drew … I think they all missed him though

36. Mike in 314 Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 5:29 pm

    I disagree with trading for Halladay, especially if the reasoning is based on the fallacy of a “window of opportunity”. This isn’t a salary cap sport.

    Short-term, the Phillies were the best team in the NL and quite capable of winning the World Series… and without ANY major moves, they will be next year, too.

    Long-term, the Phillies have the core, the farm system, and the revenue stream to compete with anyone. The Red Sox and Cardinals were in similar situations in the first part of the decade, and they made judicious signings and decisions related to their core players, and a result, both won the World Series later in the decade and still field excellent teams now.

    Halladay is a 1-year rental (even if they retain Halladay they lose Lee, or vice versa) at the expense of 2 starters (Brown/Taylor and Happ) who would cost next-to-nothing for the next few years, in the process enabling the Phillies to keep another core player.

    In three years a rotation of Lee / Hamels / Drabek / Happ and an outfield of Brown / Werth / Taylor would put the Phillies in a financial position to keep the infield intact.

    The focus this off-season should be on extending Lee and Werth, and bolstering the bullpen and bench.

37. Don M Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 5:48 pm

    In 3 years.. you are going to have multiple players making $10, 15, 20 M per season

    But the problem is.. if you wait and think that Drabek, Brown, Taylor are going to help win you titles

    you are probably looking at a team that is without Jimmy Rollins (or at least without MVP type production from an aging Rollins) .. Ryan Howard and Cole Hamels looking to make $20 M per season

    If you resign Cliff Lee that is going to cost at least $15 M per season..

    Utley is already at $15 M and ain’t going to get any cheaper..

    so the idea to WIN-NOW.. while you currently have the best Phillies roster in Phillies team history is a good one

    …
    I’m not saying to go all-in and go get Roy Halladay.. but if you need to trade more prospects to strenthen the core of your team, you can’t hesitate, because we aren’t going to stay on top forever

    the Cardinals, Dodgers, and whoever else will be looking to improve this year too.. and Dodgers players like Kemp and Ethier will be rocking the All-Star and MVP votes soon, and will be able to carry their team in the coming years

38. j reed Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:06 pm

    I agree with Don M. ….Hallady will pitch his ass of for us given a legit chance for a ring. Lee did and will again. A good chance we wil see the Yankees again and the last guy they want to see is good old Roy on the mound.

    Mike 314 – I’ve never heard of a fallacy of the “window of opportunity”. It might seem shortsighted in a certain light but this isn’t a formal fallacy of reasoning I’m aware of

39. hotstove Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    Sources tell me Figgins is almsot a Phillie, They are in negoations with Figgins on a 3 yr deal near 21million. IMO a good signing if they can get this.

    Halladay is being courted by Mets, Redsox but Phillies are first choice.

40. Joey B baby Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:14 pm

    hotstove, what’s your source for those? I heard that the phils were seriously considering figgins, but not with offers or anything. Same with the Doc stuff.

41. j reed Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:17 pm

    YOU GO RAJ….Guess that loss left a bad Yankees taste in his mouth…

42. Ed R. Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:18 pm

    3 years and 21 mil, not a chance that is legit. Especially given that guys can’t sign until the 15th.

43. Geoff Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:19 pm

    Um, the Angels still have to decide whether or not to offer arbitration…..

44. Geoff Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:21 pm

    Generally speaking, the Phillies can talk to FIggins generally, but not specifically until he gets arb offered and declines it.

45. Ed R. Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:22 pm

    Pretty sure the Angels will offer arbitration. They would be pretty stupid not too.

46. Mike in 314 Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    Everyone uses the window of opportunity analogy such as what Don says above, whether it is in regards to aging players or financial resources.

    Who is old on this team? Ibanez? That’s the point of not trading your top prospect (Brown) for Halladay. You insert Brown as your left-handed left-fielder, hope for average production, and then use the $10M you’re saving at that position elsewhere.

    Rollins? I’m looking forward to an aging Jimmy Rollins. Then we can pay him his true value as a leader and a gold glove SS, not the $10+M for the torture of watching him lead-off.

    And Howard? Is the $20M they have slated for him just going to disappear? No, as I said, the Phillies now have the resources to just go out and get another quality 1B. Will it be Ryan Howard production? No, but you can get a 30 HR/110 RBI 1B for a little over half of what Howard makes, and use the extra money elsewhere.

    When you keep trading prospects you turn yourself into the Mets, where the only way you can improve is via free agency.

    Had the Phillies done what everyone wanted them to do last year and trade for Halladay they would have had the same result, minus their best prospects.

47. Geoff Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    It came from his A$$. Even if they had already done all that, the dollar figure is way off.

48. j reed Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:24 pm

    Maybe he hates California….

49. Ed R. Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:24 pm

    Very correct Jeff. Technically the Phillies can’t talk salary and contract length until the Angels decide to offer arbitration or not. But luckily for the Phillies, Figgins is a Type B.

50. Ed R. Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:28 pm

    Sorry, that should read Geoff, not Jeff.

51. j reed Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:38 pm

    What would a be a more appropriate dollar amount…I always suck with the money stuff.

52. j reed Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:40 pm

    And what’s a Type A and Type B other than A being better than B. When it comes to contracts and arbitration my eyes gloss over.

53. Mike in 314 Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:50 pm

    Type A are in the top 6 at their position according to Elias, Type B in the next 6. You get compensatory picks for losing either type, but for losing a Type A you get the signing team’s top draft pick.

54. Ed R. Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:50 pm

    Personally, I think Figgins can get 10 mil a year easy. So 3 years and 30-35 mil.

    As for type A vs type B.

    A Type A free agent means that whoever signs a type A free agent, they now owe the team that the player came from two draft picks. Them being the new teams first round pick and a sandwich pick, which is a draft pick that occurs between the first and second rounds.

    Type B free agents require no compensation between the teams. For a player it is better to be a Type B free agent as being a Type A can preclude some teams from wanting to sign you.

55. Ed R. Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 6:56 pm

    Mike you are correct, a Type B free agent requires that compensatory picks be handed over.

    As for what determines type A vs B. A type A is determined by Elias Sports Bureau as being in the top 20% in all of baseball, type B the next 20% and all the rest are considered unclassified free agents. Doesn’t technically mean top 6 in your position.

56. j reed Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 7:02 pm

    Thanks Mike in 314 and Ed R. – Hmm. 30 mil. do you think we’d be over paying for someone probably on descending side of his peak. His Swiss Army Knifeness in the field has got to be a managers wet dream but might make him to costly esp. if you don’t utilize all his fielding versatility.

57. Mike in 314 Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 7:12 pm

    20% of ALL players!?! I’m getting a headache just thinking about the equations they must use to figure that out. Lord knows I can get pretty darn close by just going to ESPN.com and sorting third basemen by OPS and adjusting a bit for defense.

    IMHO, whether Figgins makes sense for the Phillies really depends on what they plan to do with Victorino. He’s the only top of the order player they really have, so they need to have someone else in line if he isn’t going to be here in 2011. Now if they to keep Victorino but not Werth (huge mistake) they should probably go with someone like Beltre.

58. karen Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 7:13 pm

    Well, I will have to be one of the few to stick up for Happ. Unfortunately, the Phillies should just trade him because he is not good enough but whatever. How can anyone truly say that Hamels is a top pitcher? His attitude is sickening but his performance left a lot to be desired.

59. karen Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 7:17 pm

    I would love to see Taylor get a chance in Philly in 2010….he ended the season last year fairly good in lehigh valley. he had an injury but i have to believe that he can be a top outfielder…..Also, Drabek needs to get up to philly soon too…..the phillies are banking on him being the franchise pitcher, but what if he isnt? There is too much being laid on his performance….he has not been higher than AA. I think the phillies are stupid to get rid of Happ but I will keep my feelings on that to myself.

60. Ed R. Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 7:22 pm

    Personally, I don’t think Victorino is really suited to be a lead off hitter either. I also think Figgins is on the downside of his career. I also do not think he really is all that much of a match for the Phillies. With Beltre, you get the power hitting righty that you need. We need more than just Werth. More so, Beltre can bat 6 or 7th and he would do well. With Figgins you would need to juggle the whole line up. While I don’t think J-roll is a good lead off hitter at all, I am also weary of adjusting the line up. Why change a good think you know?

    Truthfully, I would rather have Feliz back over Figgins. Maybe I am crazy in thinking that but I do.

61. Whizwithout Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 7:23 pm

    I wanna see the phillies manage to get 2 of the three players this offseason whether it comes from trades or free agents figgins, valverde, halladay

62. Mike in 314 Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 7:33 pm

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m fine with Beltre… I’d just rather have Figgins, because I can’t handle another season of Rollins at lead-off. His inconsistency really impacts the line-up, and it isn’t going to improve.

    If they sign Beltre I’d rather he hit 5th though …

    Victorino
    Utley
    Werth
    Howard
    Beltre
    Ibanez
    Rollins
    Ruiz

    It’s moot because they don’t have the stones to do it…

63. Mike in 314 Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    And I agree: Victorino isn’t an ideal lead-off man. But he’s better than Rollins. And Victorino isn’t an ideal #2 hole hitter, either.

64. psujoe Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 7:37 pm

    Taylor is hitting a solid .308 for Obregon in the MPL. He’s going to be in the bigs this year, but we have Francisco as #4 so it’s getting crowded. SOmething has to give.

65. psujoe Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 7:58 pm

    Any chance the Phils could pry Kouzmanoff from the Pads? 18 dingers in that park is pretty good and we’d have our corner for years.

66. psujoe Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 8:02 pm

    I should’ve added they have Headley whose pretty good at 3rd in his own right. Just trying to look outside the box.

67. j reed Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 8:03 pm

    What is frustrating about Jimmy Rollins is that he has the skillset to be a .300 hitter if he used his head more and learned how to hit off speed stuff. I see no other impediment other than what’s between his ears for him to be a much better lead-off man. That is up to the coaches as well since they all say when jimmy goes so goes the phillies. If so .245 doesn’t cut it and they need to be more pro-active in telling the guy what to do. I also like the Beltre option because it leaves more to spend on other goodies.

68. Ed R. Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 8:03 pm

    Pipedream Joe but I would love it.

69. Ed R. Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 8:05 pm

    I agree J-Reed. J-Roll has the skills but I think after winning the MVP he fell in love with the long ball and stopped doing what made him so good for this team. Patience is the key, if he is going to continue to be baffled by the off speed stuff then he needs to exercise patience at the plate and capitalize on fastballs and mistakes.

70. j reed Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 8:09 pm

    Man there just isn’t awhole lot out there at 3rd base…Outside of Zimmerman and Wright there hasn’t been too many top shelf guys that i can think of. Do we have anyone in the farm who is being brought up to play #rd?

71. psujoe Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 8:15 pm

    j reed, A ton of good 3b, just not a lot available.

    ARod, Longoria, Reynolds, Sandoval, Jones, Ramirez, Zimmerman, Wright, Figgins, …

72. Ed R. Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 8:15 pm

    Well, we have guys in the minors who play 3rd but no one that are expected to amount to anything.

73. j reed Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 8:17 pm

    Yeah Ed R. – It frustrating enough you’d think someone in the organization would say something. That’s my only gripe with Manuel’s approach…it can leave players to their own devices too much. I wonder if Jimmy Williams was Manuel’s heavy and took care of that “get your a$$ in line soldier” stuff. I never heard the story behind his leaving…i assumed he retired.

74. Ed R. Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 8:19 pm

    To my knowledge there was never a reason given, at least not publically as to why Jimy left.

75. j reed Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 8:20 pm

    Whoops I forgot about all those guys….Although Sandoval is 1st basemen material. He’s aweeble wobble

76. psujoe Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 8:21 pm

    This link is a good starting point for looking at position players. Not a be all end all, but a good start.

    http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/playerrankings

77. j reed Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 8:31 pm

    psujoe – Jake Peavy over Lee?….did they even watch the WS/

78. psujoe Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 8:32 pm

    jr, I know. Some of the selections are absurd. That’s why I said it’s a good starting point. Too hard to remember all those names, LOL.

79. j reed Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 8:42 pm

    psujoe- Yeah I didn’t have a fantasy team this year so I wasn’t pouring over stats for hours. Thanks for the list. cbs sportsline is where I play fanatsy actually. I’ve been baseball stat. nerding out over at Fangraphs but more just learning sabrmetrics than paying attention to all the players. I forgot all about cbs sportsline. They have good traditional stats. and great match-up features.

80. Mike in 314 Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 9:39 pm

    Well, on a positive note, if the rankings on that link hold up the Phillies will probably be playing in November next year … although I really don’t think Lee and Hamels are both among the top 17 pitchers in baseball.

81. shag beta sigma delta Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 9:58 pm

    JRoll is not going to get moved to the 8 spot. He had really bad first 3 months, but he will be better next year. He did pretty well to get up to .258. He is a 275-280 guy with streaks like the rest of this team. Vic is not ideal in the lead off either, if they get Figgins which I do not think they will, JRoll may be moved to the 2 spot, but I doubt it, Vic would be moved to 7th.
    JRoll
    Figgins(VIc)
    Chase
    Howard
    Wreth
    Raul
    Vic(Beltre,3rd base guy not named figgins)
    Ruiz
    Pitcher.
    I think instead of spending the money they may have on one guy, they need some pen help, a 4 or 5th starter, and bench guy. I do not see stairs back, so left handed power guy who can actually play once in a while in the field, or why not Matsui as a bench bat. The Yanks are not signing him, but he would never play in the field.
    I see Cole having a big year, and Chase having an MVP year, if he can stay healthy the whole year. Think you need to Platoon Raul a little more, and maybe Wreth.
    I know they will not do it but I would love to see them sign Jayson to 5 year deal this off season.

82. karen Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 11:35 pm

    I would love to keep Werth. I think he is just a special player who definately is still growing as a player. I love Victorino, but I am not sure if he is a more valuable option that Werth. Raul is still shaky depending on how he recovers from the surgery. Is Francisco a guy they want to play in the outfield everyday or only as a bench player? I would love Taylor to play in Philly, just because he is definately a potentially great player.

    I definately hope they can do something to get Ruiz into a longer deal…..he is definately growing into a great catcher and a real leader on the team.

    And I would consider replacing jroll when able to do so. He is okay but not a star and he loves to talk but not back that talk up.

83. George Says:
    November 11th, 2009 at 12:16 am

    Some of these ideas are from Fantasyland. Rolen? The man hasn’t gotten along with two totally opposite manager types, has only one shoulder, and is approaching the old folk’s home. Sure, he can still field and maybe hit a little when he’s not on the DL, which he usually is. And Halliday! Too much to give up for one year, and with the present staff, probably not needed. Maybe the Phils could use another starter, but that’s no reason to sign injury risks like all of the above mentioned “high reward” types. They won the 2009 pennant with an off year from Hamels, a non-existent year from Myers, a mediocre year from Moyer, and a host of stopgaps like Bastardo, Rodrigo Lopez, Chan Ho Park (for a short time), and Carpenter. It wasn’t until midyear when Lee and the surprisingly effective Martinez joined the crew, and the Phils were already ahead even then.

    Let’s get real, and forget this starting pitching speculation. It’s bullpen and bench help the team will be looking for, and a long-term third baseman with some real ability.

84. George Says:
    November 11th, 2009 at 12:20 am

    I forgot. They won with off years from Rollins and Lidge, too.

85. spanky yankee Says:
    November 11th, 2009 at 1:28 am

    please don’t get halladay…he’s gonna cost alot they already gave up players for cliff lee,sure i’d like halladay but i’d rather em go after some one like ben sheets,rich harden or kelvim escobar…as for 3b figgins is their first choice because if they get him they can finally move rollins down in the lineup beltre will be their 2nd choice if they can’t get figgins,but i see ruben going hard after figgins and if they lose out on him and beltre,they’ll prolly try and get feliz back on a 1 year deal but i don’t think he’ll be back…

86. Manny Says:
    November 11th, 2009 at 9:35 am

    The exciting thing about bringing Figgins is that you pretty much have to move Jimmy down in the lineup… which in the end is better for him, and better for the team as a whole.

87. Don M Says:
    November 11th, 2009 at 10:00 am

    Yea but Rollins is better than a 6 hitter… I would imagine that Rollins would be #6, Ibanez would be #7, with Ruiz #8

    …Victorino, the better contact hitter, would remain in the #2 spot?

    …
    I really, really, really can’t see them bringing Figgins here.. it would be nice to have a true leadoff hitter, but I think they really want to bring in a Right-handed bat with power

    Beltre might have been on the juice.. I wonder if he still has any natural power left? but I think he’s their target.. he would slide perfectly into the #6 or #7 spot (not too much pressure on him to put up huge numbers)

    and the fact that he hits LHP so well means he’s exactly what we need..

    Only question is.. what number will he wear, #29 is taken by Raul-the-Bat

88. Andrew Says:
    November 11th, 2009 at 11:02 am

    As far as relievers, apparently the Phils have reached out to 6 or so, including Fernando Rodney.

89. Geoff Says:
    November 11th, 2009 at 11:16 am

    Beltre has worn 5 before hasnt he?

90. Don M Says:
    November 11th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    I’ve seen Jose Velverde linked to the Phillies in two seperate articles..

    the reasoning being that there isn’t much of a market for Closers this year, so the Phillies could land him relatively cheap.. and he would give us multiple, experienced options for the backend of the bullpen

91. Manny Says:
    November 11th, 2009 at 11:24 am

    Don M: Raul is also better than a 6 hitter. He’s better than Rollins, too. I’d hesitate to move Raul to the 7th spot, while giving Rollins the 6th.

92. Manny Says:
    November 11th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    Valverde is solid, but everytime I think of him I remember last year’s 9th inning comeback against the Astros… he totally blew it. It was awesome.

93. Geoff Says:
    November 11th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    With Valverde, if the Astros dont offer arbitration, then you swoop in there big time. However, if they do youd have to tread carefully with the offer to him.

94. Geoff Says:
    November 11th, 2009 at 11:31 am

    It looks like the Phililes CAN afford big money on one Type A free agent, at least thats what Im reading in the tea leaves here….veeeeeeeery interesting. We didnt think they had the cash. But they do…I think they should take some of that and lock up Lee though. That guy is my favorite pitcher to come through here in a looooooooooooong long time.

95. Geoff Says:
    November 11th, 2009 at 11:32 am

    The guy has a bizaare delivery – Valverde.

96. Don M Says:
    November 11th, 2009 at 11:57 am

    I might agree with that.. but I can’t see the Phillies adding a player that would
    A: Increase Payroll by $10 M per year
    and
    B: Force the team leader, and leadoff hitter of the past decade, down to #7 in the batting order

    That’s a good way to make things unpleasant in the lockerroom

    …
    If we did get Figgins (which we won’t).. I would have Rollins 6th, Ibanez 7th, Ruiz 8th, Pitcher … Let Rollins have two guys behind him with a chance to make things happen

97. karen Says:
    November 11th, 2009 at 10:14 pm

    Beyond Taylor, Brown and Drabek there is not much down in the AA/AAA level. Not sure below that but it certainly isnt this major source of talent that I can see as a season ticket holder to lehigh valley and frequent attendee to reading

98. Keystone Says:
    November 12th, 2009 at 8:25 am

    Bastardo’s gonna turn it around and be the ace of the staff in 2010!

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