Phillies Nation

76 Responses to “David Montgomery: “We’re Already in the Red””

1. joedad Says:
   December 17th, 2009 at 8:26 pm

   I did my own calculations after I heard this and think he is telling the truth. I’d love to know how much TV and merchandising revenue they receive. People also tend to forget that they financed half of the stadium. That alone must be $20 million in payments per year so I am sure they are cash flow negative.

   Yes, the value of the team may be $500 million but you can’t do anything with that unless you sell the team. I had Enron stock and had imaginary money a few years ago.

2. Corey Seidman Says:
   December 17th, 2009 at 8:29 pm

   Ouch. I just watched “The Smartest Guys in the Room,” last week, the Enron documentary. Sorry for your loss, Joedad.

3. Pete Says:
   December 17th, 2009 at 8:47 pm

   didn’t the last post on this very blog instruct us to forget about the Lee deal?

4. SpankyYankee Says:
   December 17th, 2009 at 9:15 pm

   Let’s get the obvious out of the way so we can move on to the more compelling debate. As painful as it is to write (and for many to read), the decade’s best team is the franchise that has dominated so many of the past nine decades and the team likely to dominate the next decade as well. The New York Yankees. …As per Jim Caple ESPN a man who knows Baseball.

   NINE DECADES…….9…….. some of you can’t even count that high.
   And if Dic Hallady was that good the WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS OF BASEBALL THE NEW YORK YANKEES would have went after him.

5. SDO Says:
   December 17th, 2009 at 10:07 pm

   (We can all ignore the spanky fool. I don’t even bother reading – which saves myself the headache of deciphering the schizophrenic drivel.)

   Anyways, in response to David Montgomery’s claim that the Phillies are “already in the red” – that’s a bunch of bull. They were projected to earn $19M in 2009, according to Forbes. Do you know how easy it is accrue a few million in expenses here and a few million there to make it seem like you’re losing money in the current fiscal period? I would bet their half billion dollars that their free cash flows are quite healthy indeed.

   If I were an investor in the franchise, my main chief concern would be whether the management’s decision making is creating value or destroying value for the franchise. In my opinion, their short-sightedness will only do the latter.

6. joedad Says:
   December 17th, 2009 at 11:27 pm

   Per boston.com, an average fan will spend $50 per game in Philly (The fan cost index comprises the price of four average tickets, two small beers, four small sodas, four hot dogs, parking for one car, two game programs, and two adult-sized caps.) multiplied by 3.6 million fans give us $180 million. Player salaries of $140 million are a huge chunk of costs but there is so much more, including the costs of the stadium such as interest on debt, security, concessions, maintenence, etc. then there is player fringes, pension costs, sales taxes on tickets, G&A, travel costs. I dont see how they can make money after all is said and done

7. joedad Says:
   December 17th, 2009 at 11:29 pm

   haha, thanks Corey, but I didn’t lose much. I ain’t rich enough enough to lose too much.

8. Thunder Lips Says:
   December 17th, 2009 at 11:33 pm

   I can tell ya how else they make money: Tons of merchandising and tons of sponsorship to alleviate many costs. I live in the DC area and the amount of Phils gear around here and even when I travel across the country has risen steadily within the last 4-5 years. The Phils are very popular and easy to like.

9. Vernon Dozier Says:
   December 17th, 2009 at 11:38 pm

   “Four average tickets, two small beers, four small sodas, four hot dogs, parking for one car, two game programs, and two adult-sized caps” cost a hell of a lot more than $50. Two caps alone cost more than that. I’m not understanding this “fan cost index”. (I’ve never seen these “small beers” or “small sodas” either).

10. Stuart Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 11:41 pm

    Anyone else see that Lee was shocked by the trade and said that he wanted to finish his career in Philly. I feel like something sneaky is going on but I dont know what.

11. Geoff Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 12:05 am

    That is wierd. I read the mlb.com article. He says on the day his agent counter-offered the Phillies he got traded. I love the trade, but it definitely was….rather abrupt. I think Amaro really just was obsessed with Doc and felt he was the man. He staked his whole legacy on it basically. This is probably the biggest trade he may ever make in all his years as a GM. Hell be a GM for many many years I think too. There also may be a disconnect with Lee and his agent, or his agent and the Phillies, or something along those lines. The two sides of the story dont add up at all…

    It is expensive enough down there already, more payroll means BIGGER ticket and food hikes. They can win with this payroll, um, because they won with less before and they are a better team now. Relax. Enjoy the ride.

12. Maniac Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 12:11 am

    yupp Stuart i was sad to read it ahahah. Cliff became a fan favorite and we wanted him to stay with us. He’s really gonna be missed, but we have new things to look forward to in Philadelphia. I cant wait for the season to start. I’m thinkin about a few moves we can make: sign one out of MacDougal/Carrasco/Capps, one out of Pedro/Smoltz and resign Eyre or Park. Aumont should be a great bullpen guy along with Bastardo and Mathieson improving. Maybe the bullpen can be one of our strengths.

13. Corey Seidman Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 12:17 am

    If anybody wants to feel like crap, go listen to the Karl Ravech interview with Cliff Lee on ESPN.com.

    The tone of his voice is just…wow.

14. Bruce Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 12:29 am

    From SI.com…

    “Cliff Lee thought he was staying in Philadelphia — for the rest of his career.

    The Phillies’ postseason star proposed a routine counteroffer on a contract extension Wednesday, then headed for the Mississippi River near his Arkansas home to hunt.

    He got some stunning news on the drive there.

    Phillies general manager Ruben Amaro Jr. called to tell Lee he had been traded to Seattle for three prospects in a four-team deal that brought Roy Halladay to the Phillies. It was the first time that two Cy Young Award winners were dealt on the same day.

    Speaking by cell phone Thursday night while beginning a long-planned vacation in Puerto Rico, the 2008 AL Cy Young winner said he was in “disbelief and shock.” The 31-year-old left-hander had been excited to rejoin the Phillies for a run at another World Series.

    Instead, he’s headed to his third team in five months.

    “At first, I didn’t believe it. I thought we were working out an extension with the Phillies,” Lee said. “I thought I’d be spending the rest of my career there. … I was under the impression they wanted to keep me there for a long time.

    “In my mind, it was going to happen.”

    Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/12/17/mariners.lee.ap/index.html?eref=twitter_feed#ixzz0a0zBhiLv

15. william Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 12:59 am

    Phillies were not going to risk an extension with Halladay by giving Lee an extension first and they were not going to pay Lee for a 5 yr contract while tring to get Doc to accept a shorter one. Doc is worth more and Lee wanted too much he is just trying to down play the talk about how he wants C.C. money so come end of next season teams will be interested and he can start a bidding war

16. william Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 1:09 am

    thats the problem that can happen on a team when you have two aces when there can only be one they each feel they should be paid more it can effect a team in a negitive way on the clubhouse level. RAJ saw this problem coming when Lee wanted a long term contract and he knew Doc would sign for a shorter contract and at a dicount. Lee’s agents statements and Lees say to me they are doing damage control for the next free agent period.

17. Manny Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 1:13 am

    Oh man… that is horrible. I wanted Cliff to stay… can’t believe we traded him!

18. william Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 1:24 am

    I just listen to the ESPN phone interview and it only confirms he is doing damage control no one can be that far out of the loop when he tring to work out an extension and i do not belive the Phillies lied to him like that he wanted too much money for too long and the phillies were not willing to do it.

19. keng Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 7:30 am

    any way u cut it – halladay trade made good sense – give it a A – on the one hand gave up drabek and taylor – on the other hand tied doc up for 4/5 years – however lee trade made almost no sense – lightening struck and we had the opportunity to have 2 of the top 10 pitchers right now in baseball – plus hamels who 2 years ago we were happy was our ace plus this offense – we may have even been favored over the yanks to win it all!! – and now as the dust settles it looks like lee wanted to stay! – this trade on its own should be enough to run amaro out of town – think about if he had done this and there was no halliday trade to distract us with – we’d be ready to send him to bellevue!! – everything else is bs!! – nothing makes sense but that amaro got caught with gillick somewhere in the background and felt obliged to go thru with this even though he no longer needed seattle to do the halliday trade!!!! – i cant stand the fact that on top of making this nonsensical trade and passing up an opportunity we’ll never see again in my lifetime i suspect that they are not being truthful with us in explaing it!!

20. Dhall Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 7:45 am

    Lee wanted to stay, his agent said no real negotiations took place….Amaro says that he needed to replenish the farm system, Montgomery says they couldn’t afford both. The truth always lies somewhere in between. Cliff Lee is now unhappy in Seattle, and Roy Halladay deserves a better welcome than he’s been given. The whole thing is rather bittersweet.

21. Doug D. Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 8:32 am

    Upon reading David Montgomery’s comment, my first impression was that he was referring to the OWNERS being in the red in their OTHER business ventures. We have to remember that the ownership group is not the same as the mangement personnel. Does everybody actually think that the ownership group’s ONLY business interest is the Phillies? Wake up people!!! The ownership group hires the management group to run the team, which in turn frees the owners’ time to pursue other business opportunities, and I think it’s these OTHER business opportunities that are losing money to which David Montgomery was referring. Let me tell you, if the current operations of the team was showing red ink with a sellout nearly every night, its value wouldn’t be increasing. Think about it. Would you buy a business that losing money every year? I wouldn’t. The country is trying to recover from a recession. The team is probably the owners’ only profitable venture going right now. That’s why its value as a franchise is increasing.

22. psujoe Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 8:50 am

    If you’re so stunned, let us know what the counter offer was.

23. Geoff Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 9:28 am

    Yeah, thats right I kind of get the impression Lee’s agent is a d-bag. Beacuse what was the counter offer?

    The bottom line was his agent REPEATEDLY said 5 years, nothing less. The phillies dont do that. Maybe Lee THOUGHT his agent was trying to negotiate a 3 year deal in good faith, but we have not heard that, and its possible his agents posturing may have forced the Phillies’ hand. If so, Lee should fire his agent.

    If he wanted to stay here, and his agent’s demands were AGAINST his wishes to try and work something out here….the Phillies are NOT at fault for protecting themselves and trading him, it is Lee agent who is at fault.

24. Geoff Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 9:30 am

    If theyre in the red and they need to cash in…just PLEASE dont sell the team to Ed Snider…he runs things the same way that Dan Snyder runs the Redskins.

    He will destroy this franchise in two seasons. If the Flyers want to ever get back to where they were, Holmgren needs to NOT listen to Snider.

    And the Phillies need to NOT sell the team.

25. Don M Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 9:35 am

    People forget that they have to pay bills on their stadium also… water, electric, etc..

    for a place that big, Im sure that runs in the hundreds of thousands..

    they also need to pay security, and the overtime-details for those games are paid by the Phillies, not by the city..

    Who the hell buys “TWO ADULT SIZED CAPS” at a baseball game.. ??

    …
    The Phillies are making more money then they ever have before.. but they are also spending way more money then they ever have before.

    Their freaking payroll is $140 Million dollars!!!

    Could they have non-tendered Joe Blanton, paid Cliff Lee that money (plus the extra $2.5 M extra?) .. sure.. but if you are going to lose both at the end of the year, at least this way you get Top Prospects in return for Lee.. and I’m guessing Joe Blanton will be a Type-A Free Agent, which means that you get the two draft picks in return

    Lets be happy that we’ve got Halladay.. and Polanco..

    our team for 2010 is much better than it was last year, and we’ve got some prospects back to help in the future too… It was a good deal made by Amaro

26. Don M Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 9:41 am

    I can understand that people wanted BOTH pitchers..

    but if you can only have ONE.. I’ll take Roy Halladay every single time..

    Cliff Lee and his agent can try to spin this whatever way they would like, but it’s common knowledge that Lee was seeking “AT LEAST 5 YEARS” and/or “a C.C. Sabathia Type Contract”

    I wish Lee the best of luck, and wished we would get to see him pitch here next year.. he did all he could to try to win us another World Series last year, and he’ll always be loved here in Philadelphia, eventhough he was only here for such a short time..

    Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Happ … well balanced.. and should hopefully dominate the National League next season

    Phillies-Mariners World Series.. lets see Figgins and Lee

27. Bob in Bucks Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 9:41 am

    ENOUGH!

    The trades are done. Monday morning quarterbacking about things we really don’t understand is not helping anyone. The Phillies just landed the top RHP in all MLG for 4 years below market value. Things had to be done to make this work. Stop being so greedy about something that was not workable. When you have GM experience and have to deal with a budget speak up. Otherwise, let’s welcome Halladay and look forward to a great 2010.

    Do Phillie fans always have to look for the negative in everything?

28. Joe Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 9:44 am

    Amaro saw this before with Billy Wagner and Aaron Rowand. He knew the fans would have been subjected to a 2010 season of press quotes and speculation from Lee and his agent that “something will get done.” An offseason of additional speculation would have followed culminating in Lee becoming a free agent and signing with another club. Amaro saw Eddie Wade and PG both get “played” by double talking agents and players who knew full well they had no intention of staying here. Lee thought the Phillies couldn’t trade him because he believed (wrongly) that he was too important to the Phillies success to be traded. I’m not buying Lee’s interview. He and his agent thought they had the Phillies over a barrel. They were wrong.

29. A Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 9:44 am

    i’m sorry, if the phillies are in the red, something’s wrong with their business model. i had partial season tickets last year, and aside from the games in april and may, nearly every game i attended (weekend, weekday, whatever) had around 45,000 attendees. how are they not making money? maybe their ticket prices are too low to sustain the kind of roster we need to win. i’ll give them that. and though i don’t want to pay any more for tickets, if they had said they need to raise ticket prices $20 across the boards to keep lee and have halladay, too, i don’t think anyone would have complained.

30. Don M Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 9:59 am

    Along with the Phillies increased attendance.. they have also had a huge increase in their advertising..

    I see lots more Phillies commercials.. they have an ad in the Daily News and the Inquirer every signle day.. they have billboards along I-95

    …
    I’m glad that the Phillies realized that if they were going to trade Cliff Lee, that they did it the same day as the Halladay deal.. They knew that the fans would be outraged if the got Halladay, and then a few days later, they traded Lee

    For the Phillies to market this as a 3-team-trade.. was brilliant on their part!

31. Don M Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 10:08 am

    Last year, when people were bitching about the Yankees $200 M payroll

    we all came to the conclusion that it would be much better to have an Above-Average team.. that you can afford to go see multiple times per year

    I personally don’t know how people can afford to take their kids to games NOW.. let alone if the prices went up another $10+ per seat

    NOSEBLEED seats are , parking is $10-20 depending on which lot, and who the opponent is (Mets games are more expensive.. fireworks games are more expensive, etc..)
    Beers are $7 each,
    Sodas are like $5 each
    a bottled water is $4 …
    a soft pretzel is $4
    hot dogs are $4

    So lets say you take, your wife and two kids to the game.. the real price is:
    4 tickets ($26) = $104
    Parking ($10) = $1o
    2 Beers ($7) = $14
    2 Sodas ($5) =$10
    4 Hot Dogs ($4) = $16
    4 Pretzels ($4) = $16

    $170 total… and who only drinks ONE beer? … those bratty little kids will want Cotton candy too ..

32. psujoe Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 10:21 am

    Anyone know the Phils TV deal?

33. Jeff Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 10:22 am

    Lee will say anything to make himself look good. Who cares at this point. Would I of loved to see the two of them for one season. YES. Its not going to happen so I have to forget about it. The bottom line is we have the BEST pitcher in all of baseball for a long time. He is so good. I dont buy baseball jerseys that often. I have a one Michael Jack, Lefty, and now I just placed my order for Halladay. I cant wait to see this guy pitch. We will still win the NL with him and I think Hamels will come back strong.

34. Geoff Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 10:34 am

    I try not to even buy their beer at all. Its a rip. Even the BOTTLED WATER tastes a little salty – and when I drink it it makes me MORE thirsty. And all of the Lemonade and Iced Tea has High Fructose Corn Syrup in it. And I dont drink soda…

35. Chris Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 10:36 am

    $170 for four, so roughly $50 a person. Thats about right. Thats $180 million in revenue, without even mentioning tv money (HUGE) and merchandise (Jerseys aren’t cheap). They are making money, its not even a question. Look at the Red Sox. Their stadium only holds 38K and they make money, and always have a higher payroll than us.

36. joedad Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 10:42 am

    Vernon, the cost index was $200 and is an average for 4 fans buying those items. I took $200 / 4 to get $50 per fan.

37. joedad Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 10:44 am

    Here is my source (2008 season so it might be a bit higher now): http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2008/03/28/average_ticket_price_list/

38. Ben Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    doesn’t say what part of their income is in the red. most businesses carry debt, so to be in the red overall is no surprise. as people have said, just financing cbp puts them in the red.

    i highly doubt they are in the red on year to year operating costs. yes it costs a ton to pay this team, but they also make tons of money through shared TV revenue, apparal sales, tickets, etc. they also get money for post season and world series appearances.

    so overall in the red? sure. is their annual debt increasing at an unsustainable rate given their revenue stream? highly highly doubt it.

39. Don M Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 11:02 am

    Here is the interview with David Montgomery..

    http://950espn.com/Audio/tabid/183/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/5356/David-Montgomery-joins-Mike-Missanelli.aspx

    It basically gets to the point that, the owners aren’t making money of the day-to-day, or year-to-year operations.. but since they are putting a lot more into the team, and the team is making more money as a business

    that their ORGANIZATIONAL VALUE is where they will make their money.. if they were to sell the team, it is worth more right now, than it was 5-10 years ago

    This is a business, and this team is the owner’s investment.. I feel like they’ve done a GREAT job at giving us a Quality and Affordable product over the past 5 years.. and with the Lee trade, they gave us a chance to keep it going for the next 5, instead of just the next 1

40. psujoe Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    The Phils can afford to lose some $$$$ considering how much $$$ they made in 2008. What they pocket, like 35 million?

41. Don M Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    What business would knowingly and willingly TAKE A LOSS … just because the previous year was a good one??

    Wouldn’t you want to keep profits coming in…

    People need to start thinking with their heads, not with their hearts.. baseball is a business.. thankfully we have an ownership group that wants to give us a good product. They could VERY EASILY be a middle of the road team in payroll, and performance .. but instead they try to give us a great product

42. Chuck Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 11:56 am

    I can’t believe …(actually, I can….but I think it’s ridiculous!)….that everyone is STILL debating/complaining about this….IT’S OVER!!! Cliff Lee is now a Mariner….DEAL WITH IT, PEOPLE!!

    I can’t wait for Spring Training to start and for us to see what we’ve got…who’s gonna be the 5th starter?….what bullpen pieces are yet to come?….will one or two of the non-roster invitees make the club?….seeing the Doc for the first time….how are Cole and Brad gonna fare?….and MANY more questions and scenarios….

    THIS is the stuff that’s important….who really cares what Cliff Lee and/or his agent said…it really doesn’t matter…he’s gone….and our team is better AS A WHOLE….

43. wbodisc Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    Hey Rube/Monty: Trading one of the top dozen pitchers in the game for pennies on the dollar is not the way to do business in baseball, either.

    And for the Kool-Aid drinkers: The problem isn’t that they traded Lee for prospects. It’s that they traded him for interesting but risky prospects that have proven ZERO above class A. Aumont, the centerpiece of the package, just posted an ERA of 12.00 in the AZ Fall League.

44. j reed Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    What overhead for the stadium. It’s an open air ampitheather that is used few months of the year. It has a few offices and food courts. THe major expense is the lighting and displays which are only on for 3 hrs for those 81 nights (minus the day games 70 + nights). 90% of it doesn’t need plumbling, or HVAC. Maintainence wise not a whole lot…esp without a roof. the elevators probably cost the most to maintain. maybe re-pointing the brick in about 10 yrs….the front office probably is in use year round but those costs would be too marginal for considerarion. And of course ground maintainence. But i am pretty sure that the consessions and parking cover the building costs. And lets not forget everyone’s getting some Phillies merchandise for the Holidays…..Wouldn’t be suprised that the revenue holiday sales generate couldn’t have kept Lee here for a year. Also the city owns the park so that’s no property tax I am assuming. Plus the city put up half for the construction and investors the other half . Perhaps 95 mill from Citizens Bank for the team’s naming rights in 2003 accounted for most of the investor input.

45. Monk the Mediocre Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    These guys are being paid millions and they cry because they are traded. That’s bullshit. I love the sport and I love the Phils, but these guys are pampered. How many could do your job day in and day out for what you get paid. And most are retired, living on easy street, by the time they are 40.

46. Don M Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    We obtained LEE for pennies on the dollar… and we traded him for the same, because he has no trade value

    he has already said, that he intends to become a Free Agent at the end of the season.. he doesn’t want to sign an extension, he wants to have multiple teams bid for him in the offseason

    THAT is why teams are unwilling to give up great prospects for him..
    which is why Halladay cost us “so much” because he was willing to sign an extension..

    Who the hell cares about someone’s stats from the Arizona Fall League???

    that is like praising someone for a great spring training, like everyone did with Mayberry last year

47. wbodisc Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    So we should give Lee away because he was cheap to obtain? And expiring contract or not, Lee does have value, because he’s a relative bargain at $9M per year for 2010 (be honest about this — remember that Jamie Moyer will be paid $8M this season). Plus, he brings compensatory draft picks if he walks as a free agent.

    Look, adding Halladay is a great move. Trading Lee to replenish the farm and provide salary relief is a creative idea on the Phillies’ part. But they are a championship caliber team. Even the Pirates or Royals would expect big league ready talent, or close to it, for an asset like Lee.

48. Geoff Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    A lot of you guys are being BIG TIME, OLD SCHOOL NEGADELPHIAN HATERS!!

    The team is STILL going to go back to the WS if they stay healthy, where they will have a chance to win another World Series. They WILL hoist another trophy before this core begins to break up. This is absurd.

    I like to ensure that we can have an ace pitcher locked up for years to come. Ok, so its Halladay and not Lee. We still have an ACE locked down to lead the way back to victory.

    I like to haev teams that can CONTINUOUSLY reach the postseason year in and year out…

    So you wanna keep Lee? Cutting BLanton is stupid becaue he gives you innings and value. Durbin maybe shouldve been non-tendered, but ok. Then you want Lee? You gotta trade Werth, or Victorino. And if you lose those guys this season then the Phillies wont be winning anything.

49. Geoff Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    What else do you want? I mean really…

    The lineup is BETTER
    The rotation is SLIGHTLY BETTER
    The bench is MUCH BETTER
    The bullpen will be addressed and will likely be BETTER too…!

    The Phillies have been VERY aggressive this offseason, one of the most aggressive teams in all of baseball. They have gone out and improved the team in every phase except the bullpen which Im sure they will address. I guess thats just not good enough…

50. Don M Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    would you rather have ..Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies, Juan Ramirez..

    or 2 draft picks??

    For whatever their reasons may be.. they can’t go above $140 Million in payroll, so of the above options… i’ll take the prospects

    and on top of that, we’ve got Halladay for 4 years.

    If Lee had trade value, why was he traded so cheaply twice in a row??

    You couldn’t have gotten anything close to what the Blue Jays got for Halladay because Lee said he was going to become a Free Agent..

51. wbodisc Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    Don’ t know if you’re referring to me as one of the Negadelphians, but I’m on board will all aspects of the Phillies’ plan, including trading Lee. My problem is with the pitiful return we got for him. Adding Halladay and subtracting Lee means they’re still the best team in the NL if healthy (and the best by a wide margin if Hamels/Lidge rebound). But please be honest with yourself — subtracting Lee and adding nothing in that end of the deal that will help before 2012 is a major missed opportunity. That’s all I’m saying.

52. WORLD Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    The Phillies should have traded for Halladay after they got Lee last year. Had they done that, methinks they would have won the World Series and be looking at 3 in a row in 2010.

    For goodness sakes, the franchise is the worst in terms of losses in the history of professional sports. In the history of the franchise, they’ve only won twice.

    They had a chance to make history. Amaro and Montgomery played it cheap and blew it.

53. Geoff Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    Im mainly talking about the people that are calling them cheap and that theyll never win again because of this and so forth….ridiculous stuff…

54. Ben Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

    world, do you know what they wanted for halladay? drabek, brown, gose and happ and no sort of extension talk.

    do you realize what sort of bounty that is? its ridiculous. they didn’t play it cheap, they made a good decision and got him for a fraction of that cost, and an extension.

    you guys can make up fantasy trades and ideas and say that management is stupid/cheap/short sited for not making them, but once you start actually thinking them through and not making quick statements you’ll see they did a hell of a job to land the best pitcher in baseball.

55. wbodisc Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    It’s not Aumont, Gillies, and Ramirez vs. two picks. It’s Aumont, Gillies, and Ramirez vs. two picks AND Cliff Lee in 2010. I like the second one much better — it’s not even close.

    But I get it. I understand that Lee in 2010 breaks the $140M threshold. And I didn’t expect three out of Seattle’s top four prospects like Toronto got for Doc. However, there was no gun to Ruben’s head to trade Lee on the same day. If it was — as rumored — a PR move to avoid getting the fanbase excited about the prospect of teaming up Halladay and Lee, then it’s a misguided one, because the Lee trade as it went down was even worse from a PR standpoint. With Halladay and Lackey off the market, don’t you think Ruben could have at least explored the market for Lee?

56. Griffin Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    Phils pick up Rollins’ 2011 option for $8.5 mil. Given the lack of middle infield prospects in the minors, this was a no-brainer.

57. wbodisc Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

    World, nobody hates the Lee trade more than I do, but the Phillies are certainly not cheap. A payroll threshold of $140M is pretty generous for a franchise without YES/NESN-type TV bucks. And don’t forget that they were willing to eat a contract mistake like Adam Eaton rather than keep trotting him out there and hurt a contending team.

58. Ben Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    wbodisc, i see what you are saying, and i guess we can just speculate. i agree with don m though, look at the two most recent lee deals. one for 1.5 years was for 4 marginal prospects. one for 1 year was for 3 slightly better but younger (overall) prospects.

    to say we could have shopped him and got a vastly greater return is a tough sell given history. who’s to say the market doesn’t realize their position, and only offer us scraps knowing we HAVE to move him. also, we didn’t trade him to a perennial contendor, which are the teams that would obviously offer the most for a one year rental. we trade him to the yanks/red sox/angels, we have a much greater chance of seeing him in the series (if we get there) than if we trade him to seattle. if we trade him in the NL we see him during the year AND possibly in the playoffs.

    i haven’t seen a legitimate idea for where he could go that would have worked better for us.

59. wbodisc Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 1:51 pm

    Fair points all around, Ben. But didn’t Toronto pretty much HAVE to move Halladay after five months of non-stop rumors? And didn’t they have even less leverage because it was pretty widely known that Doc wanted to come here?

    Cleveland’s return on Lee has been questioned, but at least Carrasco, Donald, and Marson — who were highly touted like Aumont/Gillies themselves once upon a time, I might add — were at the AAA level. Prospects below AA are pretty much a lottery ticket. Plus, Cleveland was rebuilding. The Phillies are a two-time defending NL champ.

    Maybe there wasn’t more to be had for Lee. But after the post-season he had last year, and considering his reasonable salary for ‘10, I’d be really shocked if there wasn’t.

60. John Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    wbodisc, that’s wrong. It’s Aumont, Gillies, and Ramirez AND 4 YEARS OF ROY HOLLADAY vs 2 picks and 1 year of Cliff Lee.

61. Chuck Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    As I said before….let’s just wait and see what these three prospects do before we start calling this a bad trade….and we won’t fully realize that for a few years..

    I’d be willing to bet that AT LEAST one of them will be in a Phillies uniform (not Reading either) by 2011 sometime….contributing…and making Cliff Lee an afterthought…

    And even if they’re not….we’re still a BETTER TEAM today than we were the day World Series ended..

62. Ben Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    wbodisc, completely agree with that. my initial reaction was just like yours, but after hearing everything, and really thinking about it, at the end of the day, we probably should have gotten only slightly better prospects for lee. but then you have to find someone to give them and it has to be a team we don’t mind shipping lee to.

    so i’m not up in arms over getting 3 low but good prospects over something like 2 low and one AA prospect. thats really all i think lee could have commanded. he’s not landing an impact MLB bullpen arm or any stud AAA or probably AA player. he’d land good low end prospects (what we got) or decent AA prospects (probably something between carrasco and drabek).

    at the end of the day, this deal allowed halladay to come to philly. thats how i’m viewing it, and thats why i’m happy about it.

63. wbodisc Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    Sorry John, Halladay and Lee are separate trades — none of the Seattle guys went to Toronto. And all but one of the years of Halladay are the result of an extension signed after the trade was completed. But I get your point — Lee had to go to get Halladay. Which is fine. Halladay’s better. But the Lee part of the trade is a crapshoot at best.

64. Ben Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    what i meant by the “between carrasco and drabek” comment was he could have gotten a AA pitcher a probably little better than free falling carrasco (think carrasco beginning of the year not mid year), but no way he could have gotten a drabek type prospect.

65. Ben Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    wbodisc, but you can’t view them totally in isolation, b/c without one the other doesn’t happen. lee is not moved if halladay doesn’t come and halladay isn’t coming if lee isn’t moved. its very easy to look at them as COMPLETELY isolated deals, but they aren’t. they happened at the same time b/c they had to happen at the same time.

66. wbodisc Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    Thanks Ben… as you can tell, I’m having a hard time letting Lee — and the “what ifs” — go. But yours is a sensible perspective.

67. wbodisc Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    I will say this also: Halladay is thrilled to be here. Lee is furious that he’s gone. How great is it to be a fan of a destination franchise? I remember the days of the Bobby Bonillas and David Cones of the world using the Phillies to get more money from New York.

68. Front Office Clowns! Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    For some of you to tell us “enough”or “negadel” is very distrubing to say the least. When it all finally went down I got so mad they kicked me off of Philly.com. Cowards. Going back to just before the July trade deadline….. The series of decisions that ensued by the Front Office of the Phillies will go down as the worst baseball decisions in MLB history.

    -You get Lee(great move) and then you pass on Doc because the Jays wanted their “untouchable” props. Then you fail to acquire BP help. Which costs you your 2 most conts. starters in the playoffs. Then you blindly hope Cole returns to form even though he admitted to not being ready for the season and pitched badly most of the year. You get back to the WS, but not before you chall. the Yankees to a dual at dusk. Then you start Pedro 2x and you loose to the Yanks going away. Phils didn’t even show up for Game 6. So you then you get Doc (for those previously untouchables) and then you trade Lee for broken down scraps that you could’ve gotten from Fred Sanford’s back yard.Then you try to mislead the fans with the “baseball decision” bs.

    -The Yankees lost 4 million last year winning their title.But somehow, someway they picked up a great CF from the Tigers.

    -The Phils had a 3peat gifted wrap. Get Lee/Doc in July. Beat Spanky’s Yanks last season and be by far the favs in 2010. I say we win this yr too with both. Then let one walk after the season and get the draft choices. Then sit back, grap a cold one and watch the Yankees and Boston Redsox fight to the death over him. It was so simple it’s almost hard to believe. No MLB team will ever get the chance that the Phils blew ever again. And Werth is gone next yr too. The fun times won’t be lasting much longer…

69. I M PHILLIE FAN Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

    From a 65 year Phillies fan I would like to wish all of the Phillies players, staff, etc. a very Merry Christmas…..with the exception of Ruben and Mr. Montgomery…
    70 sellouts out of 82 dates and we are in the Red…..having been a business man most of my life, i find this to be highly unlikely,,,,unless the owners are taking their payday in the first five years instead of 20 years, as they should. The added merchandise sales that would have been generated with keeping Lee would have paid the bill in one week. The Eagles have Merchandise stores off campus, the Phillies would make out better than the Eagles, if they would have kept Lee. As it is, with 70 sellouts, playoff, and WS, they already have a license to print money. We pay to go to the games, busy merchandise and they are apparently writting checks to themselves. Ruben claims it was all about a Baseball move. A better baseball move might have been to go to the WS for the third time…..1942-43-44 was the last time a National League team went three straight years….65 years ago,,,,wow Ruben, maybe we could have been the first to do it in 65 years. So if maybe we really did need to get rid of Cliff, why couldn’t we get a relief pitcher and two prospects. It seems to me that we only have one pitcher that might go the 9 innings, so our most pressing need is still out there…..Tell me that Cliff Lee would not have been worth some good reliefers.

70. JJFritz Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 5:14 pm

    wbodisc… that one year you are referring to as only being because of the extension signed after the trade was completed is off. The trade would not have been completed if the extension could not be reached. That was an integral part of the whole process — dealing Lee to replenish the prospects lost, AND the Halladay’s extension. So far, things are going well for this off-season. 3B Polanco, SP Halladay, Bench — Schneider, Gload, Castro(maybe). But, we still need another SP if Moyer isn’t ready, and we still need to fill the bullpen out with respectable, reliable pitchers. More emphasis on reliable. We need someone for middle relief, and preferably someone who can close in order to relieve the stress on Lidge and Madson at the back end of the pen. After that is all done, then we will see just how good of an off-season it’s been. Good so far; let’s keep it up!

71. Front Office Clowns! Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 5:36 pm

    Wrong! Are u serious with your mention of Moyer?? The Braves have silently put together a very strong 2010 team. The arrogance of some posters to think a trip back to the WS is automatic is crazy. You gotta get in 1st. If we keep Lee are u still saying we need another starter?? And if they were so money depleted they could’ve let both go after this season if they would’ve signed both in July. The pickups have been good, but our roration is the same as it was 2nd half 2009.

72. Philsgirl Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 6:20 pm

    To I M PHILLIE FAN (and Dipsy in other posts) – heartily agreed about the business sense/short-sightedness/inflexible pocketbooks of the organization. Merchandise sales alone that “could have been” with keeping Lee this year and in having way better chance at being WFCs in 2010 *should* be a significant thought in minds of powers-that-be. What do you think Christmas sales for Phils merchandise would have been had we clinched WS for 2nd year rather than what they will be this year? Or maybe the cost of another parade and the clean-up was too worrisome for the organization. Pitching wins games. This could have been an historic year with Halladay-Lee-whoever-whoever-whoever (I remain pessimistic on Hamels in 2010); even without the greatest bullpen, great starters who can finish games make a huge difference. Whether we would have lost Lee next year is irrelevant, our core is going to change over the next couple of years anyhow and I don’t care who we’ve got in the farm system, *this* was pretty much the year to have had the opportunity to get one more year stitched on our team banner (god, it still sucks to see Skanks banner with 2009 on it in sports stores) in this generation.

73. wbodisc Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 11:02 pm

    JJFritz, you’re right that Halladay’s signability vs. Lee’s is what made this happen. But the extension years can’t count as part of our haul from Seattle — they were negotiated separately, and the Mariners certainly can’t be credited for it (if anything, credit Toronto for giving the Phillies a negotiating window). And I’ve been saying all along that it’s fantastic to have Halladay and that I have no problem with trading Lee. It’s the wish-upon-a-star prospects the Phillies got that are the flaw in the twin trades. Even the Schilling trade brought four legitimate big leaguers who actually wore Phillies pinstripes (that may sound too kind in the case of Travis Lee, but he WAS a regular for a few years). Believe me, I truly hope I’m wrong about Aumont & Co., but if the goal was to replenish the farm, high-ceiling/high-risk class A guys are a funny way to do it.

74. Just Crushed Says:
    December 19th, 2009 at 8:57 am

    A salary dump, a sell out of the fans and terrible treatment of a Cy Young award winner. An sad week for the organization and Phillie fans everywhere.

75. I M PHILLIE FAN Says:
    December 19th, 2009 at 10:16 am

    I really do miss the wonderful METS fans on this website…..for the past two years, every other post seemed to be from the great, wonderful, kind, thoughtful METS fans…..I wonder where they went????? METS fans are almost as “wonderful” as Cowboys fans. 2010 final standings will be: 1. Phillies 2. Braves 3. Marlins 4. tie between the Nationals and Mets.

76. Sweet Relief | That Balls Outta Here | A Philadelphia Phillies Blog Says:
    December 29th, 2009 at 7:46 pm

    [...] Look, we think somebody’s showing up for a physical in early January.  It’s just a matter of who. Danys Baez?  Mike MacDougal?  Miguel Batista?  What are you barfing about?  This is exactly the type of pitcher Amaro wants.  Roy Halladay, whether you like the signing or not, devoured a lot of money on his way into Philly, and get this, we were apparently already in the red anyway. [...]

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