So, What Now?

Posted by Corey Seidman, Thu, December 17, 2009 12:18 AM

How does it feel to know that for the next five years, Roy Halladay will be toeing the rubber for the Phillies every fifth day?

Let’s forget about the Cliff Lee trade. Erase it from your mind completely. From this point forward, let’s shift the focus to the splendor that is “Doc” Halladay in red pinstripes.

You deserve to feel good about that. You deserve to embrace the fact that the Phils just acquired a guy who had a 2.97 ERA in 112 innings last year against the Yankees, Red Sox, and Rays, three of the top six offenses in baseball during that time.

In his career, Halladay is 18-6 against the Yankees with a 2.84 ERA and one complete game for every five starts. I wonder how he’ll fare against the Nationals.

For what it’s worth, Halladay is 17-8 with a 3.02 ERA against the National League in his career. I could throw any number at you and you’d love it. This is the kind of pitcher Harry Leroy Halladay is.

But, with the dust settled on this insane three-day stretch, the fact remains that Ruben Amaro still has some tinkering to do. Let’s take a look at who the Phillies have locked up (or have tendered a contract to and will either re-sign or go to arbitration with.)

Lineup

Jimmy Rollins

Shane Victorino

Chase Utley

Ryan Howard

Jayson Werth

Raul Ibanez

Placido Polanco

Carlos Ruiz

Now, Polanco and Victorino could very well switch positions in the order. The switch that would make the most sense (based on last year’s production) would be to lead Victorino off, bat Polanco second, and move Rollins down to the seven-hole. But if Jimmy gets off to a hot start, that obviously wouldn’t make the most sense. We’ll see what happens in April.

Bench

Greg Dobbs: LHB, 3B/1B/LF/RF

Ross Gload: LHB, 1B/LF/RF

Ben Francisco: RHB, LF/CF/RF

Brian Schneider: LHB, C

Juan Castro: RHB, SS/2B/3B/1B/LF/RF

The opening day bench will probably look like this. The Phillies won’t carry more than five bench bats, and the only one who isn’t a shoe-in to make the 25-man roster is Castro. If Wilson Valdez or Cody Ransom vastly outplay Castro in Spring Training, they could make the squad over him. But, given the fact that Castro signed a $750,000 with a team option for a second year while Ransom and Valdez were merely Spring Training invitees, the job is his to lose.

Starting Rotation

Roy Halladay: RHP (feels so cool to be able write that)

Cole Hamels: LHP

Joe Blanton: RHP

J.A. Happ: LHP

Jamie Moyer: LHP or Kyle Kendrick: RHP

If no starter is signed, Moyer and Kendrick will enter the 2010 season as the two candidates for the fifth starter’s job. One would have to imagine that Moyer has the advantage based on the fact that he is getting paid a hefty salary and he makes less sense out of the bullpen, despite a few good performances in relief last year.

Bullpen

Brad Lidge: RHP

Ryan Madson: RHP

J.C. Romero: LHP

Chad Durbin: RHP

Kendrick/Moyer

These five will definitely be in the bullpen to start the season. Durbin was tendered a contract last week and will likely receive a $2-2.5M contract any day now.

If you’ve done the math, you know that the names listed make up 23 of the 25 spots on the major league roster. If the Phils don’t make another move from now until April 5, the last two spots in the ‘pen would probably go to left-hander Antonio Bastardo and right-hander Scott Mathieson, an intriguing young reliever who has had two Tommy John surgeries that have derailed his promising career.

Mathieson went 4-0 with a 0.84 ERA in 2009, splitting time between Rookie League, High-A, and Double-A Reading. He struck out 34 batters in 32 innings and his WHIP was under 0.90.

Thus far in the Arizona Fall League, Mathieson has compiled a 2.84 ERA and 15 strikeouts in 12 2/3 innings. His eight walks are too many.

I highly doubt the Phillies enter the season with Kendrick/Moyer, Bastardo, and Mathieson making up the final three bullpen spots. They will sign a reliever or two before then.

Fernando Rodney

Todd Zolecki reports that the team’s top targets are  former Tigers closer Fernando Rodney and future Hall-of-Famer John Smoltz.

Smoltz would be a very good one-year signing, but Rodney is a bad multi-year deal waiting to happen. Rodney saved 37 games for Detroit last year, but his walk rate (4.9/9 IP) was too high and his strikeout rate (7.3/9) was too low for a late-inning reliever. His WHIPs over the last two seasons have been below average, at 1.59 and 1.47.

Rodney’s most redeeming trait is that he’s an extreme ground ball pitcher. 58% of the balls hit in play against Rodney in 2009 were on the ground. In his career, the Dominican native has a 1.43 GB/FB ratio.

The ground balls would be nice, but Rodney is basically Chad Durbin in terms of strikeouts and J.C. Romero with walks (Romero’s career BB rate is 5.0/9, Rodney is 4.6/9.

I won’t be jumping for joy if the Phillies sign him to a two-year, $12M or a three-year/$15-16M contract. That is likely what he’ll command, since Mike Gonzalez, a similarly valued reliever, just signed for 2 years/$12M with the Orioles.

Smoltz

This would be a very good signing because Smoltz could start or relieve. He can be had for an incentive-laden one-year deal, and the Phillies could do exactly what they did with Chan Ho Park a season ago – offer Smoltz the chance to compete for the fifth starter’s job, and if he doesn’t pitch well from that role, move him to the bullpen.

At 43, Smoltz still has a powerful fastball that hovers around 91-92. He hit his spots well last year after returning to the NL, getting swings-and-misses on 31% of his pitches outside the strike zone (league average is 25%.)

His 8.4 strikeouts per nine innings were more than Rodney and his 2.1 BB/9 were significantly less.

Best Case Scenario

In my opinion, the best case scenario for the Phillies would be to sign Smoltz to a one-year deal, re-sign Chan Ho Park, and miss out on Rodney. A bullpen with Park, Smoltz, Madson, and Lidge as late-inning options and Romero as the situational lefty would be dynamic, as all four righties are strikeout pitchers.

There is no word on how much, if any, progress the Phils are making with Park, but it was made clear several weeks ago that he, once again, believes he can start. If this is so, expect teams to do exactly what the Phils did last year – promise him a job starting and move him to the pen if he is ineffective.

You’d think that at this point in his career it would be pretty evident to Park that relieving is the best option for him, but he obviously doesn’t agree with that sentiment.

(Since I’m figuring some of you will ask about Matt Capps and/or Scott Eyre in the comments section, I can tell you that many other teams are more interested in Capps than the Phillies appear to be, and the last time Ruben Amaro mentioned Eyre, it was to say that he was “pricing himself out of the Phillies range.)

Money

Financially, the Phillies are in the same position they were in before the Halladay deal. By trading Lee and his $9M salary, and receiving $6M along with Halladay, the $15.75M Doc is due in 2010 didn’t hamper the Phillies at all. The deals were a wash, financially.

So, how about they invest a little bit of money in a low-risk, high-reward deal for Smoltz, and do whatever they can to re-sign Park?

What do you think?

Permalink Comments (152) | Trackback (0)

152 Responses to “So, What Now?”

  1. ActuallyChilled Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 12:52 am

    It is not often that I comment, and please forgive the partially non-post issue being raised, but I am still seeking perspective on why Lee had to be shipped so fast. In order to stay topic, I’ll put this in parenthesis.

    (I understand shipping Lee (although tough to see the epic warrior go). Was this a Gillick driven move to help out Seattle? It seems that, assuming the Phils weren’t faced with a Halladay deadline race with another team, a sound approach would be instead to sit for a few weeks and see what kind of offers came in for Lee. Even Seattle seemed ’shocked’ at the deal happening.

    I just think it was hasty. Look at the Angels. On one hand, it does lighten the Phils competition by going to a lesser competitor for a year… but I don’t see that as the factor here.

    Yes, they got a good deal for Lee coming in to begin with so it’s basically a wash. i don’t want to be greedy, but this seems strange, I don’t feel these guys justifiably replenish the system – and I don’t know whether other looks weren’t taken. Or whether Toronto would have taken in prospects from any other third party teams Seattle or otherwise. There wasn’t enough coverage on this. I need some answers.)

    I am very encouraged by the lineup with Polanco. The team seems to have gotten stronger. I can see the Phils signing Smoltz and perhaps Pedro for that matter, both would be somehow hilarious and entertaining, and probably effective.

    I imagine that Roy has a tremendous impact on the pitching staff and team overall. He is a current great, linking up with other current greats. Modern legend joining modern champs. This will be another sick ride.

    If there is anything additional that needs to be addressed, it is 1) value of the farm system, and 2) Cole. It’s about Cole. Let’s not pretend it’s not. You need two top of the rotation guys. Not one. Cole steps up, all will be forgotten. Except for 1). Hence, the Lee comment…

  2. Andrew Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 12:54 am

    He was shipped so fast because you the fans couldnt handle even 3 days of the thought of Lee and Halladay. Good trades both. Lost 7 of top 10 prospects in 6 months. Something had to be done. The GM thinks beyond 2010 unlike the fans.

  3. Corey Seidman Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 1:12 am

    ActuallyChilled – All valid points. You’re asking the same question I asked in yesterday’s write-up of the deals.

    The hastiness of the Cliff Lee trade is the toughest part to swallow. If the Phils would’ve stood pat for a few weeks, let 29 other teams know Lee’s available, and sit back, the market would have gone crazy and teams would be tripping over themselves to outbid one another for a Cy Young pitcher coming off an amazing postseason.

    I understand (but don’t agree with) the need to get prospects in return for Lee to replenish what was becoming a barren farm system. But nobody understands why it had to be done so quickly for the package the Mariners were offering.

  4. NateB Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 1:25 am

    Back to Halladay- this is the best pitcher in the game and his character is up there with the game’s all-time greatest off-the-field players, actually reminds me a lot of Dale Murphy. Anyone associated with the Blue Jays can’t talk about Doc without almost shedding a tear with praise and admiration. I think he will have a huge effect on Cole and the entire pitching staff. Besides, Cole, feeling like the “Lefty Ace” of the staff, will step it up this year. I’m excited for the impact that Doc will make on the team and even the community.

  5. SirAlden Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:21 am

    Beautifully written post. On the mark.

    Two pitching spots.

    Park
    Smoltz

    Mathieson and Bastardo Righty and Lefty in AAA
    Carpenter and Savery (not likely) starters in AAA as well.

    Here are the Injury Risks:
    Moyer – will he ever pitch again?
    Lidge – will he be effective?
    Romero – will he be effective?

    Three question marks, so I hope the Phillies sign 3 not 2 Free Agents.

    Martinez
    Eyre – will he be effective?

    I hope Pedro is signed, he wants to be here, having him in addition
    to Halladay, and Moyer, with his experience to pass on would be great.

  6. badlukk13 Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:38 am

    FWIW, and concerning Chan Ho (I can’t remember where I read/heard this, so I can’t account for it being legitimate):

    Chan Ho knows he’s a reliever, his desire to start comes from Korea’s TV schedule… apparently Mr. Park is quite the celebrity in his home nation. So if I remember correctly, Park said that Koreans watch his games like Americans watch Idol, but the stations only carry games that they know he’ll be playing in… hence he wants to start, since it guarantees his family, friends, and countrymen will see him play. If that’s actually the case, then I gotta respect his determination to start, especially if it means him doing so for less in a small market. If that’s not the case, then Chan Ho needs to swallow his ego and get his Korean butt back in the Pen already!

  7. badlukk13 Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:40 am

    I correct myself, as a Korean… Chan Ho has no butt.

  8. bfo_33 Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 7:59 am

    Nice post, to the point. I would also like to stay away from Rodney. I know a few Tigers fans – none of which are particularly sorry to see him go. Better off with Smoltz and Park.

    Sheridan has a nice article on the Halladay/Lee deals. We won’t know if the Lee deal will be a good one for a few years, but I like the thinking.

  9. Jeff Y. Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 8:20 am

    Is Brett Myers done??

  10. Jason Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 8:21 am

    Regarding Smoltz:
    Would he even sign? Smoltz has stated several times that he absolute hates CBP. If he never wanted to pitch there before…. why now?

  11. Adam Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 8:28 am

    I don’t know why you like Smoltz so much… I have as much respect for the guy as one can have, but did you see him last year? He couldnt pitch in Boston, he couldnt pitch in St Louis. The only games he had success in were against the Nats, Pads, Royals, and Os. Over the hill HOFer. Id really not waste the $ to get him.

  12. Adam Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 8:28 am

    I’d rather have Myers (ugh)

  13. chuckS Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 8:41 am

    Something I was wondering about, if the phillies hadn’t signed Roy Halladay where would he have ended up? New York, Boston, LA? Could you imagine that, RAJ probally been ran out of town if the phillies faced Doc in October, right? Lets just hope the phillies make it there!!

  14. Mike Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 8:52 am

    hi, I don’t comment much but I thought I would put out the reasons I see for the entire deal

    #1: We can’t compare the prospects for Doc to the prospects for Lee. Lee is the classic one-year rental. From the beginning, at least from the Phils perspective, a Doc deal meant an exclusive right to bargain longterm at a favorable rate.

    #2: There were NOT going to be a lot of teams for Lee. What do I mean!?! Well, sending Lee to an NL team was pretty much out of the question (in short, it would be dumb). Sending Lee to the AL East would be a mistake b/c you don’t want to further strengthen those teams. The AL Central had no great trading partner (but perhaps MN), so you were stuck with the Angels or the Ms. The Angels were players for Halladay and it may have been hard to work them in b/f signing Halladay. The Ms apparantly came in b/c we were originally interest in moving their pitcher to the Jays. At the winter meetings, the Ms were the most natural partner. They probably stayed in the deal to avoid breaking up the Halladay trade or b/c we naturally know that organization better.

    #3: Trading Lee probably was NOT about money. I think this trade developed in the Winter Meetings. We could have nontendered Blanton or traded him and the deal would have been done for both. We then would not have needed the same amount of work in the bullpen (two guys who can go deep and give even a marginal BP a rest). This deal was about prospects and the future. This is what happens when you have a young GM who wants a legacy outside the shadow of Gillick. By the way, that is NOT a bad thing.

    #4: The right comparison is the Lee for Lee trades. In that sense, this wasn’t a bad deal. The prospects we got for Lee are better than the ones we gave up. As an aside, the prospect we gave up for Halladay now are not as good as the ones we would’ve had to give up in July. Now, we think we could have gotten more for Lee but, as I’ve explained, there were only two teams available. Moreover, Lee is a pure rental and one who—aside from the playoffs—presented some trouble signs down the stretch (not great ones mind you).

    Given the circumstances, this was a good deal.

  15. SpinJamin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 8:53 am

    I really want the Phillies to sign Smoltz if he is willing to go to the bullpen. It would be a win-win because they’ll add a great bullpen arm and have a spot starter available at anytime. I hope they seriously consider Smoltz because they still need to add a good bullpen arm, not just some guy they hope will do well.

    I know that they could always use Aumont now that they have him if an injury comes up but I’d like to give the guy a chance to start fresh in a new organization and see what happens as a starter.

  16. Mazinman Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 8:57 am

    Doc Halladay in a Phillies uniform, a dream of mine has come true. Halladay is one of the few non-Phillies players who I have been a fan of over the last few years so I am obviously very happy to see him around. The sheer joy in his face in being in Philly during the Press Conference yesterday was also great to watch. Cliff Lee was great for us but Halladay is in another level all together. With this offense behind him a 20 win season and a Cy Young are very definite possibilities.

    The Lee trade was smart in a lot of ways, I think. What was Ruben supposed to do with him? Trade him to a team like the Yankees or Angels and maybe have to face him in the World Series next year? Seattle is ideal because we get some prospects back and it lessens the probability that he gets in our way. Did we get enough for him? We are not going to know for a couple year. What I do know is that now two straight GMs have been criticized for not getting back enough for Cliff Lee. Could the market for him in MLB be less than what we think?

    Losing Taylor and Drabek definately sucks but the sting is definately eliminated by seeing Halladay wearing the uniform. Baring any injury disasters, the guy should be the rock of our rotation for years to come which is important because Hamels has been so inconsistent. Lee could not be that rock because he would have been likely gone after this year.

  17. bob Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 9:13 am

    Sign Smoltz
    Sign Park (although that is looking more and more unlikely)

    Address these needs (possibly get Pedro in here for cheap to push for 5th spot in rotation) and lets get rolling with 2010.

    Ace starter (CHECK)
    Addressing the bench (CHECK)
    Address the bullpen (Still waiting)

  18. bfo_33 Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 9:35 am

    I haven’t analyzed all his appearances, but on the few I saw, it seems that Smoltz gets in trouble his second time through the order. He’d be nice in the pen. I also think there is next to no market for Myers, he’d be cheap. There is something else going on, though. Was the Hamels argument real? Has Ruben had enough of his redneck ways? Ruben learned well from Gillick – don’t air the dirty laundry. We may never know why Myers isn’t being pursued by the Phils.
    I am a strong believer that with the exception of a closer, you don’t spend big money on a bullpen. A strong starting rotation is the biggest asset, then throw a bunch of cheap arms in there and see whcih ones work. Halladay will have the biggest impact on the bullpen. He pitches deep almost every game, and will make Hamels (and Happ) even better by being a completely different pitcher. Not a shot at Lee, but delivery,… is too close to Hamels and Happ – allows guys to get locked in. I think you’ll see the whole staff going deeper into games this year, and the bullpen will be very good, not due to talent, but to reduced burden.

  19. Geoff Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 9:35 am

    Id like to see them sign someone to compete for the 5th spot. Obvoiusly, itll be a cheaper risk/reward type pitcher, likely coming off of injury. But Id feel a little better with another option in there to create competition.

    Re-sign Park. Maybe even let him compete for the 5th spot in ST again. But ultimately hell be in the bullpen here.

    Im ok with giving Bastardo a chance, since I dont trust the effectiveness of Romero coming off of last season.

    Kendrick may always be an up and down organizational type of pitcher. Bouncing back and forth when someone else gets hurt, but I dont expect him to make the roster out of ST. Although, in San Diego’s park hed do quite allright I think.

    I would like to sign someone other than Rodney, I feel that he will give us fits. Even as a 7th or 8th inning option, I just dont know. Id prefer Matt Capps, but he is attracting a lot of other interest.

  20. j reed Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 9:38 am

    Happy Halladay…I got my Red Ryder BB gun for X-Mas.

    As to the Lee issue….that’s all about Amaro being constrained by the phantom 5 ownership and their imposed cap. The ownership stance has not changed and other GMs know this. Think about it, a team being poised to make baseball history along side the Big Red Machine has 8 relievers on the DL 3 weeks before a post season birth and your owners won’t spring for 1 measly middle reliever….are you f***ing kidding me! But we have the BUDGET which no one ever, like the owners, sees. Maybe no one sees the books because that 5 way cut of the profits is an eyebrow raising number. Even Lee at 9 mil. for one year with the all the firepower we have is a low risk high reward scenario. So, if you have 5 owners all seriously rich to begin with and they lack the vision to see the huge pay off it tells me that they still just as conservative as they were 20+ years ago. And keep in mind that increasing pay roll is what they were supposed to do…you reward your labor for winning. They get no lemon cookie for that.
    What all this means for Amaro is no leverage. No chance to play teams off one another. I mean what else can you do when your low balled by your own people. I mean crikey there’s the budget which everyone knows were adamnant about maintaining. Thanks for putting the “kick me” sign on our GM’s back you a**hole owners. That package should have had at least one top tier prospect or a decent reliever but it’s not Amaro’s fault, that falls on the great business minds of the phantom 5.
    At least Aumont is 6′7.

  21. Corey Seidman Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 9:38 am

    To whoever asked about Smoltz wanting to pitch at Citizens Bank Park – He stated recently that he’d love to come here and wouldn’t mind pitching in this park.

    When I first mentioned Smoltz a few weeks ago I wrote something like “Ironic that he doesn’t mind coming here, now,” as in, all the sudden when he doesn’t have as many suitors, CBP doesn’t look like such a bad place to pitch.

  22. Ben Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 9:51 am

    j reed, your completely speculating on the ownerships fat wallets, and completely overlooking the fact that our budget has ballooned in the last few years. they have loosened the boot straps for us, much more so than other teams have. while i agree they aren’t scraping to put food on the table, they have been generous to us. the lee trade wasn’t just for money, it was about prospects. the quicker people realize that and stop blaming ownership the better.

    as for lee, the deal makes sense as someone said, in that they trade him to seattle. while seattle is A LOT better (king felix and lee, they’ve upgraded their lineup too) the likelyhood is we will never face lee next year. there is something to be said for that. plus, the prospects weren’t throw ins, but thats been discussed ad nauseum.

    as for the issue at hand. i like smoltz on an incentive laden deal b/c of his versatility. i’d also love chan ho back, but obviously in the bullpen. otherwise i’m just happy halladay is on the team.

  23. Mike Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 9:56 am

    I am not sure its so obvious that Chan Ho is a BP piece. He had a rough start to ‘09. Perhaps he would have had the same rough start in the BP. He turned it around in the BP but perhaps he would have turned it around as a starter. I would give him another shot, although I’m not sure he’d take the opportunity to compete. He may feel that it is just a token gesture. Either way, this is not a guy we can lose without feeling some sting.

  24. Kevin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 9:59 am

    Corey, do you see Aumont in the bullpen next year at all?

  25. Geoff Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    If mad people get injured theyll bring Aumont up IF HES DOING WELL. Otherwise, he is only like 20/21. No reason to rush him. I presume hell start at AA along with JC Ramirez and Gillies. Reading will be an interesting team to watch this year. A lot of guys who have to show whether or not they are for real.

  26. The Original Chuck P Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 10:32 am

    My knee jerk was that the deals evaluated separately were not that great BUT the end result was acceptable… my final conclusion is that we made out pretty good.

    The Halladay deal is the easiest to evaluate- we got the best pitcher in baseball for four more years, at least… we lost Drabek and Taylor which stings but Drabek is far from a sure thing and Taylor, it seems, doesn’t fit in our plans. In my opinion, the front office is making a statement with this deal that Jayson Werth is going nowhere… when Ibanez’ time is up, Domonic Brown takes over in LF and when Vic’s time is up, Gillies is the guy… and I’m ok with that. Even if Drabek makes his big league debut in 2010 and pitches well for the next five years (which will require hand holding and limited innings), I would think that we’re still better off with the horse.

    Initially, the Lee deal seemed to be centered on Aumont but it looks like Gillies was the more sought after prospect in this deal. Aumont is a high risk, high reward guy. With Gillies, we get a contact hitting speedster with a rocket arm. Sound like someone else we know? Gillies is 20 years old- he hit .341 last year (albeit A-advanced)… he immediately becomes one of our top prospects. So we lost Taylor’s power… as long as Brown continues to develop the way we all expect him to, we should be able to live with that.

    Evaluated as one big deal, the premise of the deal was actually better than the deal itself (maybe we could have gotten more for Lee or kept Lee and worried about the farm later or maybe we could have gotten Roy for less) but we got it done. You can’t turn a blind eye to the future and Lee was the only chip that we had that was going to bring us value. I think that any trade is going to make you cringe a little bit. As Phans, we have all done a great job of keeping tabs on our farm and talking about our prospects in the highest regard. That is what allowed us to get Lee and Halladay… so kudos to you. Soak it all in… we’re STILL the team to beat in the NL.

  27. rjb360 Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 10:39 am

    Justin Duchsherer sure would be a nice piece as he has experience (and success) starting and relieving. We could start him in the pen while we see how Moyer does in the rotation to allow him a chance to ease back after a full year off from injuries and depression. Throw him into the rotation halfway through the year and we suddenly have a pretty sick rotation again. The guy has a better SO/BB rate than Cliff Lee! And I bet being part of this clubhouse, hanging out with Halladay and Moyer, and a healthy dose of winning could do wonders for the depression.

    He made just under $4MM with the A’s in 2008 and had an incredible year, but hasn’t pitched since then. Not sure what he would command, but that price (or slightly above) would be a steal. I would be happy with him being the last move the Phils make this offseason.

  28. Evan Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 10:56 am

    Park isn’t a starter. His velocity went up when he went to the bullpen, and his movement looked a lot better. These were the keys to his success, and he loses them when he’s throwing 90 pitches every 5 days. For what its worth, Ruben said it doesn’t look good for signing Park anyway. He also said the Halladay deal wasn’t gonna happen either, but I actually believe him when he’s talking about Park.

    I think the Phils best bet is to go out and sign Smoltz as an insurance piece. Have him compete with Kendrick and Moyer for the fifth spot in Spring Training and then have either Smoltz or Kendrick in the pen. I don’t know if Moyer can pitch from the pen successfully. Otherwise the pen can be pieced together with the current major league players and some minor leaguers who have shown promise (bastardo and mathieson).

  29. Georgie Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    I agree Cory, we have to let the Cliff Lee thing go. The Phillies now have the best pitcher in the league, and we went to the WS last year, so I am STOKED for 2010. Do you guys realize how much fun this team will be to watch for many years to come? it’s a wonderful time to be a Phillies fan, bask in the sunlight that Roy Halladay will bring to Philadelphia.

  30. Monk the Mediocre Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 11:21 am

    Keeping in mind that Smoltz can start, relieve and close makes him an attractive option. Also, it is obvious that he also wants to WIN !!! I think the Phils need to move beyond Chan Ho Park and Scott Eyre and look for another reliable lefty in the pen, whether it is within the organization or outside of it. I agree that Fernando Rodney is not the answer for the Phils. We don’t need anyone else to start the season on the bench. We need to focus on pitching, period.

  31. Mike Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 11:36 am

    We need to resign Park. He needs to realize he is a good reliever and a poor starter. He was one of the people coming out of the pen last year that I really trusted.

    As for another arm, I would chose Smoltz. I don’t want to have to be locked into Rodney for 2 or 3 years. Smoltz with an incentive deal could be valuable for us.

    Are teams showing interest in Pedro?

  32. The Original Chuck P Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    I would be ok with having Moyer, Kendrick, Bastardo and Mathieson competing for three of the final four spots but I think that we need one more reliable bullpen arm… I would not classify Smoltz or Rodney as reliable and I’m not sure they’ll be cheap, either. Capps would be nice but there are too many teams bidding up the price of his services.

    A guy that I might be willing to take a flyer on is Brendan Donnelly…

  33. mikemike Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    what do i do with my new lee jersey stick i n my ear. salary dumb all y people who dont think it was are nuts. there are the option marguis, lowe, are on the market and the angels are loaded with money and need a starter, if we granted them a chance to sign lee long term what would y think we get then, lee agent said he wasnt against signing here it was cleveland he wouldn’t sign and wanted to test free agency.

  34. NEPA Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    The Cliff Lee thing reminds me of our need to satisfy Curt Schilling years ago,that is….. trade a star for a bunch of scrubs.
    It is perplexing because this time,we didnt have to do it.
    I have heard that we did this because 1)we needed the prospects.(but we could have done better by waiting ,I cant believe Ruben is that dumb)
    Or, 2)we needed to get rid of payroll.(Dont believe it)
    Even the same people when asked give both answers.
    The only conclusion is there is something we dont know and no one will tell us about the true story of the Cliff Lee deal.

  35. j reed Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    mikemike – i’m interested in what you have to say but am having a hard time understanding. what is it you are trying to say?

  36. Dhall Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    Yeah, right now I’m trying to figure out what to do with my Cliff Lee jersey. Maybe I can get it restitched to say Halladay, especially since the numbers are not changing.

    I wish Harry was here to see Halladay pitch. I can hear it now…”Swing and a miss, struck em’ out. Phils win 6-0 behind a complete game shutout from the good doctor!”

  37. South Jersey Al Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    I’ve tried to get past the Lee trade but can’t. I keep thinking the title for the 2010 season video will inevitably be the proverbial saddest words of tongue and pen – “What Might Have Been.”

  38. psujoe Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    Knowing Lee would be moved to replentish the farm why not wait? That’s what I keep think, but evidence suggest maybe there’s just not the demand for him like Halladay.

    Seriously, Phils got him for 1 long term stud and 3 possible MLB contributer, not sure things.

    Now the Phils get 3 young long term possibles.

    Maybe that’s the best the Phils could do outside of the Yankees and that Dog don’t hunt.

  39. WORLD Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    The pity of this whole thing is that Moyer and Blanton took the bucks that could have resigned Lee to an extension. The organization should be thinking another World Series win and this team had to use an over-the-hill Pedro Martinez is two of six starts in 2009.

    With Lee, the Phils had a dynamic 1-2 punch and if Hamels could recover, then they were basically lights out. Now, they have to cross their fingers and hope Hamels can get his act back together.

    And if the Mets sign Lee after next year, THEY will be the team with the dynamic 1-2 punch. They’ve got to be thinking that in New York.

    Amaro should have kept Lee, non-tendered Blanton or traded him for some lesser prospects, and found the Phillies a RH starter from amongst the free agents or from the hurlers in the organization. Even if he could not resign Lee after having an entire year to attempt the same, there would be two #1 picks to draft prime college graduates who should be ready to step up in a year or two.

    Amaro blew a once-in-a-lifetime situation. What a shame.

    And let’s not even think about Halladay having an off-year or suffering some kind of injury.

  40. Jesus Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    I think if Amaro would have waited he would have actually lost leverage. Teams would have known that he needed to do something with Lee. I honestly believe that Amaro did what he had to do in order for this deal to get done as soon as possible. Look how crazy we all got dreaming of a Halladay, Lee, Hamels rotation. Imagine if that lingered for 3 weeks. We would have been insane!

  41. Christian Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    Separate deals between the Angels, mariners and Phillies would have worked out best:

    Two trade chips with the most value would have been Lee and Werth.

  42. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    I think the Phils could have traded Lee next July and received more than what they got from Seattle.

    Seattle has already given up on Aumont as a starter and have converted him into a reliever.

    Gilles the outfielder isn’t really a prospect-he was rated the 24th best prospect in Seattle’s organization before the year. He can not hit and I’d be surprised if he ever makes it to the majors.

    This is what one year of Cliff Lee at a reasonable salary brings back? Amaro could have and should have done A LOT better.

  43. Geoff Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    Lee has NO trade value in relation to his skill. HIS AGENT HAS PUBLICLY SAID FOR OVER TWO YEARS THAT HE WILL NOT SIGN A CONRACT EXTENSION AND WILL BECOME A FREE AGENT AT FULL MARKET PRICE.

    If you are trading him, the longer you wait the less you get because the odds are the team getting him will not resign him. His value SHOULD he almost as high as Roy’s, but it isnt because of his cotnract demands. He does not have that much trade value if you look at it that way.

    They got about as much as they are ever going to get for him.

  44. Geoff Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    Trading Werth now = no world series. Werth protects Howard Now, with Taylor gone. Werth becomes the ONLY RH POWER HITTER IN THE ENTIRE ORGANIZATION IN OR CLOSE TO THE MAJORS. Brown is more like Victorino as a hitter, better suited to succeed Jimmy at the top of the order in 2011 or 2012.

    If you lose your ONLY RH POWER HITTER IN THE ENTIRE ORGANIZATION IN OR CLOSE TO THE MAJORS then the offense will dramatically decrease. NO. BAD!

    They may have to resign Werth now because they have NO RH OTHER POWER HITTER IN THE ENTIRE ORGANIZATION IN OR CLOSE TO THE MAJORS.

    Come on man

  45. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    What are you talking about “Lee has no trade value”? Plenty of teams would be willing to deal for one year of Lee at a reasonable price.

    Just because tunnel vision Amaro acquired his man crush and traded Cliff Lee away in time to get to Halladay’s press conference doesn’t mean that Cliff Lee didn’t have a lot of trade value.

  46. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    How can the Phillies expect to re-sign Werth when they needed Toronto to kick in $6 million for Hallday’s salary?

    Werth should be looking for $12 mil a year. How are the Phils going to afford that?

  47. Chuck Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    Jayson Werth IS NOT going to be traded….everyone needs to understand that….The reasons Geoff just gave bear that out…he is THE MOST IMPORTANT OUTFIELDER we have right now…

    __________

    As far as the Cliff Lee thing is concerned….it’s OVER….MOVE ON….for all of you who are still upset about it…

    Let’s just see what these guys that we got can do….I’m sure Ruben and Co. did their homework and didn’t just “dump” Lee without thinking what they were going to get in return…

    Just appreciate Lee for what he did while he was here….get us to a second WS….that’s worth what we gave up to get him and what we gave up to get Halladay….

  48. Jesus Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    Remember that the Phils have former Seattle scouts and Gillick on our payroll who know the M’s farm system pretty much better than anyone. We all have to remember these are PROSPECTS, nothing more. Please take the time to look back at how many “top” prospects sunk and how many low level prospects have shined. I have faith that the Phils did their homework and believe that these three kids have some upside potential. I’m the biggest Michael Taylor fan around and it kills me that he will be starting for the A’s next year but he was drafted in the 5th round and batted .221 his first season in the minors at the age of 21. Let’s give these kids some time to prove themselves before we say that they are garbage prospects.

  49. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    Yes, why would we still be discussing a trade that happened 24 hours ago? It is definitely time to start analyzing spring training games.

    Werth is not going to be traded, but he’s not going to be a Phillie in 2011 either.

  50. Geoff Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    Well theyd better make sure they have someone to protect Howard if they do let Werth walk, which is likely…and right now there is no one in their system who can do that.

    Lee wont resign. Period. Now matter where he is. We know that. If you cant resign him and youre trading for him you wont be willing to give up NEARLY as much. Since hed be a type A youd get the two draft picks, so youre going to get more than the two draft picks for trading him, but not much more.

  51. psujoe Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    Griffen, the Phillies got Lee for much less and he was “being shopped”. Why couldn’t Cleveland get more for him either?

    WHo would you have expected for Lee? Teams like the Angels weren’t even willing to give up Reckling for Halladay let alone Lee.

  52. Jack Glacken Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    I am baffled by this trade. Of course, I’m thrilled to get Halladay but take D’rnaud and the 3 low level prospects we received for Lee out of the equation, we basically gave up Marson, Donald, Carrasco, Knapp, Drabek, and Taylor for him. That’s 6 excellent prospects! We couldn’t do better last year?

    What happened with the negotiations with Lee? Did Amaro get his back up? I guess the Lee trade was too good to be true because we paid way more than we had to. We just should have bit the bullet last year. We’d still have some of those guys.

  53. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    psujoe, if you can’t get anything of value for Lee, then why trade him? Just non-tender Blanton to save the money and have Lee and Halladay for this year.

    This idea that they HAD to trade Lee is completely false. If this was the best that they could get for Lee, then keep him, let him sign elsewhere in the offseason and enjoy the two draft picks.

  54. Geoff Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    because they openly said that they wanted to recoup the prospects and at least absorb the blow of the Roy trade SOMEWHAT…

  55. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    Geoff, if these prospects recouped some of the lost value then I would agree. But everything you read about these prospects is not flattering.

    The 2 pitchers project as relievers and Tyson Gilles doesn’t have enough power to play everyday in the majors.

    Meanwhile Michael Taylor and Kyle Drabek will be major league ready in 2010.

    If the idea was for the Phils to win this year, then keep Lee. If the idea was to keep the farm system intact for the future, then keep Lee and sign either Lee or Halladay next year. Instead Amaro gutted the system and got very little value for Lee.

    The upgrade from Lee to Halladay is worth a win or 2. Upgrading from Moyer (the presumed 5th starter) to Lee would be worth about 6 wins.

  56. Chuck Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    “Well theyd better make sure they have someone to protect Howard id they do let Werth walk, which is likely…and right now there is no one in their system that can do that.”

    …That’s exactly why Jayson Werth WON’T be traded or allowed to walk…because there is no one in their system that has the ability to protect Ryan Howard they way he does….not to mention his versatility in the outfield…and his speed..

  57. Keith Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    I’d like to see us add Pedro, Smoltz, and another RP. :)

  58. Mazinman Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    At this point I don’t think Lee would be the key to getting back into the series. I think the rotation we got without him is good enough to get the job done (assuming that Hamels bounces back). The key right now is the bullpen. If not keeping Lee frees up money to improve the bullpen then trading him was the right choice.

    I like the idea of Smoltz in the bullpen. I would love Park to come back but, at this point, its up to him. I also like the idea of giving Wang from the Yankees a look if he recovers completely.

  59. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    Chuck, we all agree that Werth is extremely valuable and should not be allowed to leave.

    Now please tell me how a cash-strapped team is going to afford a player who should be asking for at least $12 mil per year?

  60. Jesus Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    The idea is to win now and continue to win. We weren’t going to win a bidding war for Lee or Halladay after the season and I’m sure we can all go back and find bad things written about a lot of today’s top players when they were prospects. I trust the front office and believe that they did their homework on these players especially when we have a few guys that are working for the Phils now that were with the M’s when these players were drafted. If I recall that’s why we got Werth and Dobbs because of Gillick’s history and knowledge of these players. Have some faith that the front office that has made the Phils a constant contender know what they are doing. It sucks that we don’t have Lee here but they got what they could for him.

  61. NEPA Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    For those who say forget about Lee,this underscores the idea that we should blindly accept the dumb move that was just made.
    Hey,were just having fun talking about it on a cold winter day.
    But it still makes no sense.

  62. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    My sentiments exactly, NEPA.

  63. j reed Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    I’m sure Cleveland fans consoled themselves the same way esp as they watched Lee in the the WS and have visions of Carlos Carasco dance in their head. I see it like this:
    The only way to have kept Lee’s value at it’s highest is not to have impopsed a budget cap on yourself. But everyone knows the Phiillies mean it when they say budget. This was great because now other teams could ask their price cause they knew we have to get rid of him. What a great business strategy from 5 owners. Amaro made the best out of a bad stituation.

  64. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    j reed, while I agree that the owners set a strict budget, I still think that Amaro would have been better off keeping Lee for 2010 and getting the two draft picks. These Seattle prospects just aren’t that good. So I blame ownership but I also blame Amaro.

  65. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    Then again, if Amaro had not signed Moyer to a 2-year deal, then Lee would probably still be on the Phillies. Amaro is definitely not without his share of blame in this mess.

  66. Matt Kwasiborski Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    This is what I think they should do with the 5th position. It is unconventional but this is what I think they should do.
    1. Once they get their bullpen pieces ask Pedro what he would pitch for this season
    2. Pedro and Moyer would be the 5th starter
    3. Both probably cannot hold up full time over the year but as we saw in the first few Pedro starts where rain ended his starts, Moyer came in and did a fine job
    4. They would alternate who would start the game and the other would come in
    5. It would take a significant sacrifice to their egos but I think both of them combined would be highly effective during 4 inning outings. It would also allow us to rest our pen when they combine start.

    It may be off the wall but I think they are the best choices for the 5th side.

  67. Geoff Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    I just CANT believe there are people complaining about this. They got a few good prospects back. Not as good as they gave, because Roy has much more value. Theyre going to be a winning team again and likely return to the WS. Why are you complaining about winning.

    Having a rotation with both of them in it woulld be great, but it is also a fantasy and there is a reason that most teams dont have two VETERAN, ESTABLISHED aces like that long term – because its costs way too much.

    You wanna keep Lee and Halladay?

    Then you have to trade Jimmy, Rollins, Ryan Howard, Chase Utley, Jayson Werth, or someone like that….which AINT happeneng.

    Or you couldbe cut Blanton, but you would get NOTHING in return for him at all and would just be….throwing him away….so I think you guys that are comlpainig are just being haters…

  68. j reed Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    NEPA – we’re just not worthy and should be thankful. we forgot our place.

  69. Geoff Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    no doubt, the Moyer decision was a bad one. I ripped him for it as his one really bad mistake. I was against that from the very beginning…it was totally senseless.

  70. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    It’s amazing to me how many people are drinking the front office’s Kool-Aid.

    If the Phils had come up short 2 years ago in the World Series (before Amaro was the GM), I guarantee a lot more people would be upset about trading Cliff Lee for slop.

    But I guess since the Phils have been successful then we have no right to complain or second guess any move.

  71. Jesus Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    Because people don’t agree with you Griffin, we are drinking the kool-aid? You are listening to what OTHERS are saying about what we got back from the M’s, so are you drinking their kool-aid? Prospects are never a given and what’s wrong with taking 3 prospects over 2 draft picks? Aumont was the 11th pick in the 07 draft and he is slop according to you, so there is no guarantee that the Phils would draft a worthy prospect. Give it some time.

  72. NEPA Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    Thats it,
    I will never question the moves of the higher ups.I am nothing.And I will never forget it.
    Cmon people lighten up…….were just blogging about the trade.This isnt brain surgery .

  73. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    The fact that people are totally fine with trading Lee for inferior prospects is because the Phillies won the world series 2 years ago and we should all “give the front office the benefit of the doubt”.

    If I could fine anyone other then the 10% of Phillies fans that actually liked this trade, I wouldn’t think it was so one-sided. So yes, I think many people are drinking the Kool-Aid.

  74. j reed Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    griffin- i agree keep lee. low risk – high rewards…Any decent business owner with the assests of these 5 f**ks would have found the money…it’s a no brainer. yeah the moyer signing was bad but Amaro couldn’t have foreseen this particular stituation…although a stituation similiar to this would eventually arise.

  75. JXSCHI Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    I know Halliaday is great and a better pitcher then Lee. But we still only have one dependable starter. We can get to the world series, but we will be in the same position, facing a team with 3 dependable starters Either the Yankees or Red Sox. And in my opinion can’t beat either team. We were so close to have the mother load it makes me sick to my stomach. They are so focused on the the 140 million they cant see the obvious. It comes down to a salary dump, they more concerned with being competative and selling 3 and half millions tickets for the next 3 years. They have lost focus on winning another world series. Sorry for the spelling and bad grammar. I am an old man and dont have many years left, so I dont give a shit about the future when you are so close that you can taste it.

  76. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    j reed, I’m with you, the owners are embarrassingly cheap here. Considering how well the fans pack CBP, they should have more financial flexibility.

  77. Jesus Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    I wanted Lee here to, but I can’t believe it was just a salary dump. If it was then why not just non-tender Blanton and save on the 7-7.5 mill he would have received and keep Lee?

  78. TODDFROMFAIRMOUNT Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:22 pm

    This Breaking News, The Phillies Owners Don’t Like To Spend Their Own Money Or Operate With A Loss For A Particular Season.

    No F@$%ing kidding, I’ve been putting up with that for the last 28 years with these people. That’s what makes this deal sooo good. If you don’t like it, become a yankee or red sox fan. I’m not leavin’ ever.

    Corey, i’m on board with your post, well written.

    Go Phils.

  79. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    That’s what I would have done, Jesus. Dump Blanton, keep Lee and recoup the draft picks after this season.

  80. Geoff Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    Thats the point. They won something, they got back to the WS. Im going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

  81. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

    Geoff, Amaro was not the GM when they won the WS. So why give him the benefit of the doubt?

  82. JXSCHI Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    This is starting to sound like the Flyers board. Talk about Stepfords. Yes I know the Flyers are going to turn it around and win the next 3 Stanley Cups.

  83. Jesus Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    I think they would have done that if it was just a pure salary dump. I’m not naive enough to believe that money didn’t play into this at all, but I don’t think it was the only reason they traded Lee. I think they wanted to have some ammo in the minors if they needed to make some trades for pen arms or in case of injuries.

  84. Maniac Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    I’ve read enough. The bottom line is Cliff Lee really wanted to be in Philadelphia. Someone else could have been moved to free up some money. Remember Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling? Yeah, well looks like our chances of winning the World Series went down the drain. Of course we can make it there, but Cliff played just about perfect in the playoffs and I cannot see Roy making that much of a difference unless he pitches every other game, sorry. Horrible trade and that’s all there is to it. They rushed through it and really didn’t improve much. Let’s be realistic. Roy Halladay is an outstanding talent but he’s not going to win it for us. We witnessed Cliff Lee dominate in the post season and we needed both of them to beat the Yankees.

  85. Jeff Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    God Griffen and the rest of you stop bitching already. My god. You get the best pitcher in baseball and your still not happy. Its over with already. Cry and cry some more. RAJ is the GM and you are not. We won the world series and went back. Most teams dont do that. I do not care what Lee did in the post season. If he pitched liked he did at the end of the season you would not care. Halladay is a much better pitcher. We have scouts and people doing there job to make sure we got back some talent. Now I see its true why the rest of the world hates Philadelphia fans. We should be proud of this team. I got my Halladay jersey coming in the mail and I cant wait to wear it. If we kept Lee and did not win it all you would bitch we did not resign him or got nothing for him. Become Met fans..

  86. psujoe Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    I wanted Lee to stay as much as the next guy, but these 3 prospects are superior to 2 draft picks. A lot of differing opinions, but if this is ranking of the Phils farm is close how can anyone complain?

    Philadelphia Phillies

    1. Dominic Brown
    2. Tyson Gillies
    3. Phillippe Aumont
    4. Domingo Santana
    5. Anthony Gose
    6. Trevor May
    7. Antonio Bastardo
    8. J.C. Ramirez
    9. Sebastian Valle
    10. Vance Worley

  87. Jeff Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    Hey Maniac shut up. We won it all with Hamels and Myers. If Hamels showed up last year we win. Now we have Hamels and Halladay. Could be the two best in baseball. Nobody in the NL will put up 7 against DOC like they did on LEE. If your going to bitch do it against your Eagles.

  88. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    Jeff, you’re right. We should never complain on a Phillies blog when we make a bad trade.

  89. psujoe Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    jeff, Very true. Lee had 3 5+ run games in two months for the Phils. halladay had 3 all year in a much tougher division.

  90. psujoe Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    No BS. Halladay might win 25 games.

  91. TODDFROMFAIRMOUNT Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    Maniac, Big Roy can throw 3 times in a WS. If you are honest with the situation, we and the Phils brass new and know C Lee can’t, couldn’t and didn’t throw 3 games in the WS when we really needed our #1 to do it. Let the mets sign him for 2011 and you can go up the pike and watch him go 7-4 for them. :)

  92. JXSCHI Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    Jeff, We would get 2 first rounds picks for Lee. Much better then 2 low level pitching prospect and another Gose. Come on open your eyes.

  93. Chuck Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    The Phillies aren’t “cash-strapped”, Griffin…

    They practice smart economic budgeting…12 million for a guy like Jayson Werth…with his current numbers….is probably BELOW market value for what he is worth….

    People think that the Phillies are “cash-strapped” because they wouldn’t pay the extra for Cliff Lee…or that they wouldn’t consider somehow figure out how to have him and Roy Halladay both on this team…for multiple years….

    How many times dooes it have to be said….Ciff Lee is going to command a contract of AT LEAST 5 or 6 years at AT LEAST 20 million per year….I’m glad the Phillies didn’t go there…

    Instead they got Roy Halladay….a BETTER pitcher….for BELOW market value….for four more years..

  94. Phil Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    I just don’t see relying on Moyer for the fifth spot as a move that’s going to work out. Yes, his salary hurts a lot (as others have pointed out), but that’s not a good reason to start a weak pitcher. Nor is the fact that he would suck out of the bullpen.

    I’d go with Kendrick, assuming there aren’t any other reasonable options out there (and there probably aren’t).

  95. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    Chuck, the Halladay and Lee trades were two independent transactions. There’s no reason why they couldn’t trade for Halladay and keep Lee for this season.

    The reason I mention that the Phils are close to budget is that they made Toronto include $6 mil in the Halladay trade. In return for that, the Phils had to include better prospects in the deal.

  96. psujoe Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    Those 3 prospects and $6 million may come in handy at the deadline if Howard, Utley or another key piece goes down. I’m liking the move more and more.

  97. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    That $6 mil covers the difference between Lee and Halladay’s salaries for 2010.

  98. psujoe Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    Griffin, the budget has a potential deadine move built in. Without the $6 million it doesn’t.

  99. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    psujoe, if that’s the case, then great. I still would have used that 6 mil and come up with 3 mil elsewhere to pay Lee.

  100. Jesus Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    I am confused as to why people keep insisting that 2 draft picks are better than 3 prospects. Can someone please explain this to me?

  101. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:59 pm

    The 2 draft picks may or may not be as good as the 3 prospects. But considering that the 2 pitchers received are no longer projected as starters, let’s just say these aren’t great prospects.

    There is the issues of having to pay the draft picks their bonuses, whereas the 3 prospects have their bonuses already paid.

  102. psujoe Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 3:59 pm

    Me too.

  103. Jeff Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    Yea your right Griffen. Getting Halladay was a bad trade. MORON.

  104. Chuck Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

    Griffen…you are missing the point….why not get 3 good prospects now…instead of 2 draft picks at the end of the season….what we got for Lee is the best that we could have gotten….and who’s to say these guys won’t produce…and make us all forget about Cliff Lee..??

  105. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    Jiff: Trading Hallday was not a bad trade. Trading Lee was.

  106. Jeff Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    Now you guys are experts on the prospects we got back. your so funny. Im so glad lee left. He did not want to be here. If he did he would of signed. I know he did well against the yankees but we also watch him get bombed against the braves, brewers astros, nats, Halladay will not get hit like that. BEST PITCHER IN THE GAME IS ON OUR TEAM.

  107. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:06 pm

    Chuck, I agree that we won’t know for a long time whether this was the right move or not. Also, whether or not these are “3 good prospects” is highly debatable. Check out phuturephillies for their prospect analysis.

  108. Chuck Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:06 pm

    Yeah….Phillippe Aumont won’t be a starter…but he has the tools to be an effective closer…but I guess that doesn’t count for anything…huh, Griffen??

  109. Chuck Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    Somehow, Jesus….the word “draft pick” is sexier than “prospect”…..that’s the explanation why the 2 picks are better than three prospects..

  110. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    No need to get testy, Chuck.

    Starters are way more valuable than relievers. Starters pitch 200+ innings a year. Relievers pitch 60.

  111. U Gotta Believe Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    You all are forgetting the key to last year’s world series was Cole Hamels…that turned the whole series around for the Yanks. We were beating them 3-0 and then Hamels had one of his mid game blow ups and gave them the game. If we had hamels pitch half as decent as he did the year before or lidge not blown that tie game we would have been wfc back to back. Now, we have an Ace signed for multiple years…stop crying over lost prospects…remember Brandon Duckworth he was supposed to be lights out….too many if’s with propects…Shane Vic wasn’t supposed to be anything…and Werth was left go…Please just shut up!

    This team is better than it was last year and just needs a few more little pieces to finish the deal.

  112. Jesus Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    Where was it stated that they aren’t projected starters anymore? They are 21 yrs old and Gillies could turn out to be a pretty good player. I would rather have 3 prospects than 2 draft picks any day.

  113. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:11 pm

    The Mariners already gave up on Aumont as a starter. Most reports have Ramirez being converted into a reliever. Gillies could turn out to be pretty good, but when you’re trading away an ace, don’t you want at least one sure thing?

  114. Ben Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:11 pm

    griffin, according to the below link aumont has the best projections of the bunch (could be better than drabek). granted he’s younger, but he’s not a sub par prospect. tyson gillies projects to be a shane victorino with less pop and more contact. the guy can fly too (44 steals). jc ramirez is very raw, but still uncorks in the mid 90s.

    http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2009/12/16/grading-the-prospects-in-the-halladay-lee-blockbuster/

    were they the best we could do? who knows really. lee was given up for less for a 1.5 years. he’s cheap, but really just a rental. you aren’t going to a get a stud sure thing prospect for long term in exchange for one year of anyone.

    with that being said, should we have kept both of them? inside i say yes, but thinking about it realistically, you can’t just throw every freaking egg in one basket. our farm was slightly replenished, we upgraded to the best pitcher in baseball, and used up minimal money. somehow people are still throwing their arms in the air over this.

  115. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:13 pm

    The draft picks aren’t necessarily better than the prospects. But the draft picks + one year of Cliff Lee are better than the prospects.

  116. Chris.I Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:14 pm

    Smoltz? Are you serious? Wouldn’t you rather have Martinez instead? If they can sign Martinez for 1 yr- 3mil range than they better jump at that price. I’d love to see them go after Duchsherer too for about 2 yr 8 Mil, than we’d be ready to rock n roll

  117. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    Ben, I’ve heard mixed projections on Aumont. Phuturephillies has him as the 9th ranked prospect in the system. But you’re right, we won’t know for years.

    Also, thanks for spelling my name correctly!

  118. Ben Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    so lee, who was in the minors in 2007, and even didn’t look great at the end of the regular season this year, all of a sudden requires a sure thing prospect (AA or AAA stud) to headline a deal to rent him for one year (which would surely include other younger prospects)?

    you guys are completely under valuing how much prospects are worth and what halladay is worth. lee is a great pitcher, halladay is the most sure thing pitcher you can land, and we got him with the ability to extend him so he’s in philly for 5 years. why would those trades be even?

  119. Chuck Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    I’d rather have a front-line closer than a mediocre#4 or #5 starter anyday…because good closers are very important to winning championships…and Aumont COULD be one of those types of closers….or he could suck….

    We’ll just have to wait and find out….and that’s the fun part!

  120. Griffin Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

    Chuck, I agree, we will have to wait and find out.

    Anyways, I have to run. It was fun debating with you.

  121. Ben Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:19 pm

    and i’m not jumping on you, i just think people are flabbergasted by this trade, when really we should be saying “eh, we should have gotten maybe a slightly better prospect”. ownership was very smart, economically, to not sell the farm this year. you think they are being tight now, how bout if we suck in 2013?

    totally agree i was slightly underwhelmed by the lee trade. but taking a step back, we didn’t get fleeced at all. we should have done slightly better, but at the end of the day we have the best pitcher in baseball.

  122. psujoe Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    I love the fact that all 3 are going to start at Reading and figure it out from there.

  123. Brooks Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    OMG – this is crazy!
    Maniac, you are nuts dude and everyone who thinks we blew our chance at the WS ring (does everybody at least agree that the fall classic will be the Phils vs ???) – it was the hitting that blew it! Howard with 3 hits, Rollins with little impact, Feliz with 1 hit, Francisco 0 for 8… it was terrible.

    Regarding your post Corey, I really feel that Benny will be gone by the time the season starts. He has been a starter, just not here. Good trade fodder perhaps?

    On to the Yanks… the pickup of Granderson will ultimately hurt the Yanks. A career .272 hitter with so-so power numbers (power could improve somewhat in NYC) he hit .249 last year with 30 hrs and strikes out too much. How do you hit 30 hrs, have over 630 at bats and still only knock in 71 runs? This while playing for a team that did have a winning record (86 wins). Not a good move for the Yanks –

    The Orioles signed Garret Atkins (3rd base) for it looks like 4 mil, up to 5 mil with incentives. With the signings the Orioles made, they could be replacing the Jays as the perrenial 3rd place finishers in the AL East.

  124. psujoe Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    The one thing I’d really love to know is did Rube at least call the Angels and say your intra-division rival is getting Lee unless you give us x,y,z as long as x,y,z is better than what we got. If they did then so be it.

  125. j reed Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    Replenished with what? You mean to tell me that Lee can’t fetch a top tier prospect plus two second tiers or a top tier and decent reliever? His record setting post season play guarenteed that but not with the way budget nazis handled it. That always been our reputation we keep on budget and never take risks. Yeah they loosenedd the purse strings relative to what they made. No risk. Good budgeting is fine but there is a time to take risks this is one of them…otherwise all your doing is mirco-managing. This was a perfect storm. With Lee we’d have the Red Sox pitching with a Yankees line-up. That would make us the chosen ones dammit. Any owner who fails to see that is an accountant that farts dust.

  126. mikemike Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    Really don’t understand anyone saying Angels wouldnt give up anything for lee. they lost lackey, only marquis and lowe and his big contract are out there, Angels are now looking at harang and will have to give up two top prospects, now tell me with the market out there for starting pitching, y really believe lee doesn’t bring more, and as i stated and his agent said never closed the door on extension, so grant the angles a window to sign him long term. if not they still will pay for one year , the phillies owners had the balls to say they are in the red do y fooking believe that?

  127. j reed Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    I always forget about Harang-a-Tang…tall, ugly and can pitch until the cows come home.

  128. Halladay Stroll « Team to Beat Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 5:38 pm

    [...] Phillies Nation: You deserve to feel good about that. You deserve to embrace the fact that the Phils just acquired a guy who had a 2.97 ERA in 112 innings last year against the Yankees, Red Sox, and Rays, three of the top six offenses in baseball during that time. [...]

  129. Ed R. Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 5:39 pm

    I have a thought, and it came to me as I was driving home from work. A lot of people have said, or are under the belief, I think myself included that Amaro rushed the Lee deal. That he could have held out and gotten more if we waited a little while. And clearly no one among us will ever really know for sure. But I thought to myself, what if Amaro did the smartest thing he could have? Clearly Amaro had to trade Lee, whether it was for the money or for the prospects, one way or the other Lee had to go. Not because he wanted to trade him, it seemed pretty obvious to me that he didn’t but ownership forced his hand. Right or wrong, that’s what happened. Ok so be it, it sucks but I can accept that. From an ownership group who has allowed the payroll to get where it is, as fast as it has, I can accept that.

    But suppose Amaro traded Lee now because it made the most sense? For instance, some people said wait until the beginning of next season when someone goes down in Spring Training, or wait until the dead line when someone is in desperate need of a starter to pitch for them down the stretch and get them into the playoffs, much like what the Phillies did last year to get Lee, or the Brewers the year before with Sabathia. But what if Amaro had to do it now because it actually was the best idea?

    What I mean by that is, the Phillies are clearly the best team in the NL right now. I would imagine they are the front runners to get the NLCS, if not further. But a team this good does not trade a guy as valuable as Lee at the beginning of the season or worse during the season when they are trying to get back into the playoffs. It would just make no sense. I guess some would say, well half a season of Lee is better than nothing and that is true.

    But I honestly think Amaro may have traded Lee now because after Halladay was moved and Lackey was signed, there were no top of the line starters out there, either via Free Agency or on the block. So maybe Amaro’s thinking was, I can get a team to overbid for Lee now knowing that there is really no one else out there for those teams to get? Lackey and Halladay were both introduced to their new teams on the same day. It is possible a team, maybe Seattle, maybe someone else who may have over reacted and realized that this was their one chance to get that Ace that they need.

    I have no idea, I was just playing Devil’s Advocate and suggesting something from the other side of the fence that I had not heard yet.

    Anyones thoughts?

  130. PhxPhilly Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    I will not re-iterate that obvious fact that we should have kept Cliff Lee.

    Why not have Happ be the “Smoltz/Park” type relief pitcher? He has shown that he can pitch out of jams and out of the bullpen. I know he would prefer to remain a starter and has earned that right. Moyer and Blanton need to find their ‘feel’ for what pitches are working and what the umpire is calling. Happ seems to have no trouble going after hitters.

    Just like in the playoffs the Phillies will need a compentent relief pitcher and they have one in Happ who costs them nothing. Who can they sign that would be better than Happ, especially given their budget restrictions? (And by correlation, that’s why they could keep Lee at $9M because Rodney or Smoltz might cost $5M+. I still think this comes down to budget.)

  131. PhxPhilly Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 6:21 pm

    I agree with others that the Halladay trade was a good one. I know their budget does not work this way but how many top draft picks can be signed for that $6M? I know that probably cost them upgrading to Drabek and adding in D’Arnaud vs. another OF prospect but the $ is what allows them to pay Halladay this year!

    I dislike a lot about the Lee trade. Mostly it was not necessary. If they needed to clear salary then Blanton should be traded. If they wanted prospects then Victorino should have been traded. By projections he will cost $6M this year, is GG and All-Star. He should have some value and is controlled for two years. He will be the 7th hole hitter now and could be replaced by Gload/Francisco (and for young guys Berry/Mayberry) with Werth and Francisco (and Berry) being capable defensive CF. He would not have brought in 3 prime prospects but probably one prime and maybe a middle reliever candidate.
    As far as the rotation with Lee, Happ could move to the bullpen or Moyer would just be cut. Kendrick would stay at AAA ready to be called up.

  132. JJFritz Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 6:35 pm

    I like the idea of Smoltz being signed. But, and here’s the point, he needs to be signed strictly to the bullpen. For this reason alone… Ryan Madosn struggled this year in both the setup role AND closer role when filling in for Lidge. Smoltz as the setup guy and go-to if/when Lidge struggles makes more sense than leaving Madson in that role. So many seem to forget that Smoltz was one of the best closers in the game a few years ago. Sign Pedro M. in the same role as last year. He more than excelled in that role, and I think he was pretty happy with it too. He and Moyer can fight in spring training for the 5th spot. One starts, and one relieves, and is always ready if the other struggles to start. And I like the idea of Bastardo in the bullpen as well, giving us our extra lefty. So, rotation is Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Happ, Pedro/Moyer…. Bullpen is Pedro/Moyer, Romero, Bastardo, Madson, Durbin, Smoltz and Lidge. Sounds pretty damn solid to me!

  133. psujoe Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 6:59 pm

    It will be interesting to see what the Angels give up for pitcher like Lowe. They have a lot of prospects.

  134. william Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 7:03 pm

    Enough of the Lee crap on to the bullpen anyone think not going after 26 year old Capps would be a bad idea I know he isnt a sure fire thing but the kid has time and opportunity to develope further here and he is still good now sign Capps and Smoltz by the time Lidge contract is over Capps should be ready to go fulltime.

  135. JJFritz Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 7:48 pm

    william, I can see the reasoning behind Capps. But, wouldn’t signing him to a minor league contract be smarter? Mold him there so he’s ready to come up when needed. Don’t waste a spot on the big-league roster trying to mold someone for the future.

  136. william Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 8:53 pm

    No way Capps would agree to a minor league contract he is looking to close and wants to be on a contender with Lidge health up in the air he would at least have a chance I was refering to a set up role when I meant developing him for the closer role

  137. Jesus Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 8:54 pm

    I would love for the Phils to go after Capps, but it seems like there are quite a few teams after him right now. The guy is only one season removed from a pretty good run of success in the league on a pretty bad team. I wouldn’t have any problem with the Phils signing him. I really think a change of scenery would be really good for him.

  138. j reed Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 9:07 pm

    capps had a rough year (i am assuming Matt Capps from the buckos) but he’s got the talent. However why bother when Seattle started grooming Aurmont to close. He’ 6′7 with a power sinker. I don’t know how ready he is though so Capps might be the right answer. good idea though, get him young when he cheaper before he earns the king’s ransom closers usually do. What about octavio dotel…or did he sign with the white sox?

  139. Jesus Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 9:15 pm

    I also am confused as to why no one has signed DJ Carrasco from the White Sox. He can’t cost too much and he is a groundball machine. Would be perfect for a middle reliever for us, especially in this park.

  140. william Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 9:17 pm

    Having Capps and Aumont under control would be great. Dotel would be a good stop gap for ONE year. Smoltz would bring a new level old school attitude to the pen

  141. william Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 9:19 pm

    Carrasco has real control problems at times but ground ball pitcher are what we need

  142. Jesus Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 9:26 pm

    William, you are right about DJ’s control issues but he does throw a lot of groundballs and doesn’t give up the long ball which are two things we could use. Although I’m sure he is one of those pitchers that just drive you crazy while he is on the mound with all the walks.

  143. j reed Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 10:15 pm

    well we have the best pitcher who happens to be the best GB pitcher in all the land. Yeah, till now fancy that, CBP with a rotation full of fly ball pitchers and one of the best defensive infields in the NL. I lover sinkerballs…the honda accord of pitches…what you don’t get in p***y you get in GB outs. Kendrick is coming along but how about Pinero? I really enjoyed Pedro M last year. it sucked what happened that last game. he shouldn’t of been out there …it was obvious that he blew a tire. Maybe Dubee forgot to bring the radar gun and his brain to Pedro’s bull pen session.

  144. william Says:
    December 17th, 2009 at 11:49 pm

    I hope Kendrick find a offspeed pitch he would make a decent 5th starter

  145. Manny Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 1:55 am

    I agree with Griffin.

    My 2 cents.

  146. mikemike Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 8:02 am

    Anymore here believe montgomery the phillies are in the red after two world series appearance. How many extra games have they played in the last three years all that revenue, and they are in the red, Cheap Bastard Owners, they are liars , always have been, spent no money in international market last year, spent less than anyone in the draft. after making all that money . John middleton is the only one who wants to spend money to win. 5 owners who are old philadelphia money and just want to say they own the team if they win fine if not who cares they dont.

  147. Brian of CO Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 8:50 am

    Well I dont agree that Smoltz would be a good move. He was HORRIBLE with the Red Sox, and had 1 or 2 good starts with the cards. I believe his ERA ended close to 7.5 I REALLY Hope Hamels goes back to his 08 splender and NOT his 09 blunder. He has so much potential, but always seems to bring so much drama. If Blanton and Happ pitch like they did in 09, and Hamels pitches like he did in 08, WOW. But yet, to me the biggest question mark is Ledge, Sorry I meant Lidge. One would hope that since he had surgery, when he did, it #1 fixed the injury he was battling ALL SEASON in 09, and also has had plenty of time for Re-hab. This is a very good team. Offense is largely intact, and still WICKED, Starting Pitching looks much stronger honestly tham the start of last season, Bench to me looks much improved from the start of last season, BullPen has potential to be great if Lidge closes, because Madson is a weak closer and a GREAT set-up man.

  148. JJFritz Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 9:52 am

    Brian, you are right. Ever since Smoltz returned to the rotation, he seems to have struggle with consistency. That’s why he should be strictly used at the back end of the bullpen. He would be a good setup man and backup for Lidge in Philly. As I said in an earlier post, he was one of the most dominant closers in the game a few years ago. But, I agree with the fact that we should stick with Madson as the set-up man. Yes, he struggled a little bit last year with consistency, but it really wasn’t his fault. He isn’t a closer, and everyone knows that. There was too much pressure put on him to step in when Lidge struggled. That, in return, made him ineffective as set-up as well. Consistency is the key. When you have a guy for a certain role, leave him there. I think bringing in someone who can close would be smart. Smoltz or Capps are both good fits. They are both proven closers. And they would reduce much of the stress put on the shoulders of both Madson AND Lidge, in turn making them both more effective in their own respective roles.

  149. The Original Chuck P Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 10:04 am

    Ugh… the quality of debate/conjecture on this site has deteriorated to the point where I can no longer bear it. I’ll be back when things quiet down – when the “experts” go back to their day jobs.

  150. derekcarstairs Says:
    December 18th, 2009 at 11:44 pm

    A top priority for the Phillies should be to sign Jayson Werth to a four or five year extension. He is currently the team’s best athlete and should remain valuable for the length of the contract.

    Given the current outfield make-up and Domonic Brown’s great progress, I have viewed Taylor as a trading chip. That thought presupposed that the Phils would keep Werth. Werth and Brown should be the team’s corner outfielders no later than the start of 2012.

    We have control over Victorino through 2011 so we have some time before a decision is made about extending him. If Gillies can do the job, we can save some money and let Victorino walk. It appears that Gillies will give us continued good CF defense and base running. At the plate, Gillies may not need to be more than an effective 8-hole hitter.

  151. DC Says:
    December 19th, 2009 at 9:46 am

    I would really like to have Pedro Martinez back on this team as our fifth starter. I guess that is a long shot, but I thought he did a nice job

  152. Brian of CO Says:
    December 19th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    DC is correct, if the Phillies are looking for a veteran leadership as a pitcher who has EARNED the right as a member of this organziation (I am still surprised by this) go after Pedro again. The problem is, I HIGHLY doubt that Pedro would re-sign for a similar salary. Seeing how well he did for the Phils, chances are, he will demand a much higher salary then the Phillies are willing to pay for him, and a higher salary than Smoltz for that matter would demand. He was demanding a pretty hefty salary prior to when he signed for the Phils, and no one was willing to pick him up, but Im sure he will go back to that and try to use his time as a Phillie to back up his claim that hes worth it. Pedro was well worth the 1 Mill or so he was paid for half the season, but I wouldnt be surprised if he demanded 4-5 Mill, but I dont know.

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