The Bittersweet Blockbusters

Posted by Corey Seidman, Tue, December 15, 2009 07:21 PM

It’s all about perception.

You can view the trades made by Ruben Amaro in a positive or negative manner, just don’t combine them when you do so. They are two completely different deals that will, unfortunately, be linked together forever. And it’s all because of prospects, not money. Don’t believe anyone who says this was just about money.

The deal Amaro put together in order to acquire Halladay was nothing short of brilliant. He sent Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor, and Travis D’Arnaud to the Blue Jays in exchange for Halladay and $6 million (40% of his 2010 salary.)

Immediately after acquiring Halladay, Amaro locked him up to a three-year contract worth approximately $60M. The contract, which runs through 2013, also contains a vesting option for 2014 that will automatically trigger if Halladay pitches a certain amount of innings throughout the course of the pact.

If you have the chance to acquire, and subsequently lock up one of the top-three pitchers in baseball for a price below market value, you do it.

Sure, Drabek may turn out to be a stud and D’Arnaud could be the future for the Blue Jays behind the plate. Taylor, a rapidly emerging outfield prospect, may be ready to contribute in April of next year. But it won’t be for Toronto – Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos quickly shipped him off to Oakland for Brett Wallace, the top prospect in the Athletics’ organization. All of these men may turn out to be very good major leaguers, or they might not.

Halladay, on the other hand, is a proven ace. He has been the best pitcher in the superior league for years, despite playing in the toughest division in baseball. This was a brilliant move.

But if Amaro received an A+ on the Halladay trade, he gets an F- on the Cliff Lee deal.Yes, an F-. If a score of 50 nets you an F on an exam, this was a 12.

Lee was sent to Seattle in exchange for Phillippe Aumont (the Mariners top pitching prospect,) Tyson Gillies (an impressive, toolsy outfielder,) and Juan Ramirez (a “high-ceiling” pitcher with mediocre minor-league numbers.)

I spent most of Monday night believing the Lee deal wouldn’t go through, if for no other reason than it was a ridiculous trade from the Phillies standpoint. Dave Cameron of USS Mariner also spent most of Monday in disbelief, claiming that the “package is just so light as to not be realistic.”

It is too light. Even if the Phillies felt that Lee was looking for CC Sabathia-type numbers and that he wouldn’t be back after 2010, this was not enough of a return for a dominant lefty coming off of a Cy Young award in 2008, a brilliant 2009 season, and, arguably, the best postseason any pitcher has ever had in the history of a 130 year-old sport. Yes, Lee will probably leave Seattle next Fall, but this wasn’t enough for a year of his services.

Amaro stole Lee from the Indians in July, and got robbed with his eyes open in December.

Greed is Good

“Experts” are telling you that having Halladay and Lee in the same rotation was never realistic. They are saying that it never could have worked and that anyone who is asking “what if?” is being greedy. They’re wrong. If you’re sitting in your home or your office or your car and imagining a Phillies rotation headed by Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, and Cole Hamels, you have every right to feel upset, confused, and incomplete about what transpired.

The idea of Halladay and Lee together was, by no means, unrealistic. Prior to these trades, Amaro spent a week trying to move Joe Blanton and his soon-to-be $7M salary. He couldn’t find a deal that made sense, so he didn’t pull the trigger. No team was offering the prospect(s) that Amaro was looking for.

Why would they? Blanton is, at best, a number three starter, and he’ll be a free agent after the 2010 season. If you were running a team, would you give up one of your top-five prospects for a pitcher who is going to go 13-10 with a 4.15 ERA? How about your seventh best prospect? How about your twelfth best prospect?

This wasn’t unrealistic because this wasn’t about money. If it were about money, Blanton would have (and definitely SHOULD have) been traded for whatever the Phillies could get. If they traded Blanton for a Double-A infielder who hit .213 last year, so be it. The salaries of Blanton and Lee will be so similar in 2010 that it doesn’t matter who the Phillies received for Kentucky Joe. If it meant the difference between having Blanton or Cliff Lee, the prospect who Blanton would be traded for is arbitrary.

This was about prospects.

Amaro wanted to replenish his farm system by making up for the losses of Drabek, Taylor, and D’Arnaud. Did he do that with Aumont, Gillies, and Ramirez? That won’t be clear for another five years, but I’m going to go out on a limb and say probably not. Minor-leaguers are fickle in that they can underperform one year and overperform the next, but I’m sitting here looking at the numbers compiled by Aumont, Gillies, and Ramirez over the course of their short careers, and I don’t see it.

So, if this all about prospects, my question is, why not trade for BETTER PROSPECTS?! Amaro didn’t have to trade Lee at all, but if he felt that he had to, he certainly could have called every other GM not named Jack Zduriencik. Maybe he did make those calls, maybe he didn’t. But wouldn’t the Angels, desperate after losing John Lackey that same day, and Chone Figgins weeks earlier to their biggest competitor, be willing to make a deal for Lee? Honestly, who wouldn’t be interested in Cliff Lee? I absolutely, positively refuse to believe that Aumont, Gillies, and Ramirez were the best that Amaro could have gotten for Lee. This defies logic.

The real question now becomes, do you care about 2010, or do you care about 2015? It’s a complicated question, because in 2015, Ryan Howard might not be here. Chase Utley will be 37 years old. Jimmy Rollins will be sitting next to Karl Ravech on Baseball Tonight. The Phillies are going to need guys like Aumont, Gillies, Ramirez, and others to live up to their potential in order for this organization to remain competitive.

But don’t you worry about 2015 in 2012 or 2013, when it’s closer than five years away? Don’t you “go-for-broke” in 2010, when this nucleus is still intact, in its prime, and somewhat affordable?

This is why it’s all about perception. And this is why we are justified in feeling like the team we love just squandered an opportunity it might never again see.

Permalink Comments (191) | Trackback (0)

191 Responses to “The Bittersweet Blockbusters”

Jason Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
Greatest entry i’ve seen on here

A++
Andrew Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
You cant have your cake and eat it too. I do not understand why the trade had to be made the same day. Just wait. But he didnt want you guys to be pulling your pants down to thoughts of doc and Lee together.
Nick Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Nice job. This article really explains how it all worked.

I didn’t know it was two separate trades until after I read this.

Triple H plus Lee would almost guarantee a playoff spot, and would make us EASY favorites for the World Series. I just don’t know how to feel since Halladay was always one of my favorite pitchers…
Kieran Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 7:35 pm
Corey, you were spot on with Joe Blanton. Why not move him for whatever you could get and keep Lee in the rotation. At least until trade deadline comes around in July. This way, Lee has been cutting up the NL and therefore increasing his market value. Then trade him to a team looking to rent an ace for the final push of the season like the Brewers did with CC.

It seemed Rube was rushed in his talks about Lee. I think he felt some urgency in moving. Maybe Seattle was the only club out there offering anything. We will never know.

In the end, Halladay-Hamels-Happ at the front of the rotation I can deal with.
mikemike Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Dumb move. moving lee now for that junk, why not hold onto him a little longer, like toronto did with halladay, and got who they wanted, y dont pay lee now why the hurry,cheap bastard owners were afraid they would go over budject, after the last two season of raking in money,THEY still dont get it .hate these owners.lucky i am not going to give them my money watch on tv, wish comcast would buy them out.
Corey Seidman Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
Exactly. If Amaro thought he had to move Lee to replenish the farm system, he could have waited several weeks, let the rest of the league know Lee’s availabe, and sit back and watch the market go crazy.

Every contending team would be tripping over itself to offer a better package for Lee.
The Dipsy Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Corey -

Bingo. You nailed it. But I have a question. Lets say these three G.M.s agree on this deal, perhaps at the winter meetings, and then Halladay gets done today, would Rube be “morally obligated”, for lack of a better phrase, under the “gentleman’s rules of baseball” to tell Seattle that he wasn’t sure that he wanted to go through with the Lee to Seattle part of the deal and that he wanted to pull it back? I wonder. You are right about the Angels. How could they NOT give more? Its crazy. Just crazy. Ruben wore the jackass costume today and he was both the front and the back. I have a serious case of buyer’s remorse. To think that for about five minutes, Halladay and Lee actually WERE on the same team. What kind of management, five guys sitting in a dark room smoking cigars I would suspect, would answer a telephone with Ruben on the other end asking if he could have just a little bit (in their world) money so he can keep a Phillies folk hero and underpaid Cy Young award winner on his team, and actually say “sorry son, just can’t do it. Money doesn’t grow on trees ya know”. Give me an effin break. Actually, money is made OUT OF trees.

The Dipsy
SAMSOAP Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
WILL SOMEONE STOP THE LEE DEAL….THIS IS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!!!!In Rube’s defense ( and I am calling him Rube from now on) I can see management saying no Halliday deal unless you clear salary…However I guarantee Blanton could be moved before spring training…we should have never offered Durbin arbitration…he wasnt that good this year. we can fill pen in with young guys…Hows that Moyer deal looking now??????Aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!
JeffR Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Nailed it with this article. Worst case scenario could have just non-tendered Blanton, and Durbin for that matter. Something never explained is why if Seattle was brought into this to begin with, with the intent of a true 3-team deal, flipping their prospectrs to Toronto, that got totally lost. It appeared we would only have to give up Lee and possibly one of our own prospects, instead of 3 of ours. Especially since 2 of the prospects from Seattle are Canadians, it was thought that was the plan. What happened to that?
chiarellasa Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Great job of breaking it down.
The Dipsy Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Quiz: Name the three teams Pat Gillick has served as GM for.

The Dipsy
The Dipsy Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Is this Seattle deal done? Jane, stop this crazy thing!

The Dipsy
vendor71 Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Wait a minute. I just did a quick search and cannot find one article saying this trade has been consumated. Are you guys sure this thing is official?
vendor71 Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Nearest thing I can find is a Jack Z. “no comment” during Chone Figgins presser about 2 hours ago.
Griffin Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
Another well-written article by Corey Seidman.

Cliff Lee has been traded for 50 cents on the dollar twice within the last 6 months. We won the first trade, but we definitely lost the second.
jrollpatrol08 Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
corey & gang– i do definitely agree that ruben should have waited a bit to see what the market had available. i thought seattle was in this deal because it was gonna be 3 way deal–them sending toronto some prospects so we wouldnt have to get rid of drabek AND taylor…either way, ruben could have at least kicked the tires around a bit on some other packages…

BUT…with that being said…i still see it slightly different, in terms of what we could/would have gotten for cliff lee. with his open statement about testing the FA market, any team getting lee knows it is for a one-year rental shot for a world series run. we paid 4 guys for what we thought was 1.5 years of cliff lee, and arguably none of those guys were our ‘top’ prospects. so, in my opinion, it stands to reason that no team would now give up a ‘top’ prospect for less service time…why would they???
Just Crushed Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
I am devasted by this. This is a major market team that has raked in millions and millions over dollars over the last three years and the fans were sold out. Amaro will go down in history with the 64’s and Ed Wade as the top three disaster’s in Phillie baseball. He can’t be this dumb. Of course, this smells of Gillick….since it is rumoured he is consulting for Seattle, Toronto and Amaro. A joke….you can have my seats.
BS Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:27 pm
That 2 year contract for Moyer that we all thought was a bad deal really came back to bite us in the ass eh?

I’m also perplexed that Rube didn’t call around and try to create some kind of bidding war for Cliff Lee if he really wanted to restock the farm system, but the net-net result for us seems like it’ll end up:

Carrasco, Marson, Donald, Knapp for Gillies, Aumont, Ramirez (discounting the 2 months of Lee)

Is that a deal you would have made?

On the flip side, I can’t imagine that Reagins, or hell even Cashman or Colletti wouldn’t have called Rube to squeeze in on the deal. Are we to believe that Ruben didn’t take their calls? Or he felt that Gillies, Ramirez or Aumont were really the best prospects he could have gotten? I don’t know what’s more frightening.
Dan S Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
I could not disagree with you more. Amaro got back from the Mariners what he gave away for Halladay. A top pitching prospect, a very good outfield prospect, and a high ceiling but very young prospect. The prospects from the Mariners are not as bad as you make them out to be. Aumont has a career 3.31 ERA, Gillies is a career .321 hitter, and Ramirez has only had ONE year in the minors! HOW CAN YOU WRITE A GUY OFF AFTER ONE YEAR?!?!?!
Jason Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:33 pm
lulz, there’s a reason why it wasn’t a 3 team trade with Cliff lee going to seattle, seattle prospects going to Toronto, and Halladay going to phillies, it’s because Phillies prospects that were given up >>>>> Seattle prospects.
Just Crushed Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
You can right a right a guy off because he gave away proven Cy Young pitcher who lead us through the playoffs for a bunch on minor league player…all because of 9 million. The world series was a potential this year with lee and Halladay. Now you have to pray on Hamels, Lidge and no sophmore jinx for Happ (a real possibility). And a very weak bullpen that he failed to again improve.

This is a real mess…i agree…please have Comcast buy this team quick!
BS Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
ALSO… were we really so strapped for cash that we needed the $6 mil payment from Toronto? They have a lot of bullpen arms I wouldn’t have minded getting instead of the $6 mil. Downs, Accardo, Frasor, League. Why not kill 2 birds with one stone? If any of that money goes to Francisco Rodney, I’m taking back everything I ever said about trusting Rube. I wasn’t exactly thrilled hearing that we had Brandon Lyon “stolen” from us.
Griffin Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Dan S., the prospects that the Phils got from Seattle are not even close to the prospects they gave to Toronto. Drabek and Taylor are top 25 prospects in all of baseball. D’Arnaud will be ranked close to Aumount and way above the other 2 guys from Seattle.
Jeff Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
FROM A JAYS FAN

For all of you Phillies fans out there that are still regarding this a “slight upgrade,” just wait until you watch the Good Doctor for a full Major League season. He makes the rest of the rotation better (AJ Burnett still won’t shutup about how much of an impact watching Roy prepare and perform has made on Burnett’s own career). He makes the bullpen better; every 5 days, everybody else gets the night off. And, perhaps the biggest thing that he brings to a ballclub: every 5 days you KNOW that you are sending out the best pitcher that day. Not that he wins every game (though starting infront of that offense, and switching from the NL East to the AL East, he just might) but that he gives you the best chance to win that day. In Toronto, we’ve watched him square off against a ton of great starting pitching over the last decade, and never once has there been any question about whether or not Halladay was the better bet.

I say this as a heartbroken Jays fan: Phillie fans are not going to be disappointed when all of this is said and done. You’ve got one of the truly special ones. Be sure to treat him right
The Dipsy Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
The Phillies are not strapped for cash. The “Phillies” are making cash hand over fist. The “ownership group” has apparently settled on the amount of $140m to give Ruben to spend in any way he sees fit. This in order to keep profits for each owner, before taxes, at $750,000,000,000 per year. Don’t you people know how business works????

The Dipsy
NateB Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Why is everyone calling the prospects from the Mariners junk? Some experts believe they are just as good as what the Phils gave up for Halladay.
The Dipsy Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
What experts? Ken Rosenthal? Chris Wheeler? Howard Eskin?

The Dipsy
Jason Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Everyone loves that we got Halladay, at least i really hope so. Think that pisses me off (and if you read article it explains why we are a little upset) Is that we gave up lee in a completely seperate trade that was unnecessary. I have high hopes for halladay, but could you imagine Halladay/Lee/Hamels? If hamels pitches like he did in 2008 it would be regarded as top 1,2,3 punch in recent memory (i don’t know about baseball history, but could that be the best 1,2,3 in history? 2 cy young pitchers and a World series MVP :\.

That’s what i struggle to accept considering we are paying blanton close to 7 million for 1 year and Cliff Lee was 9 million.
Dhall Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
I’m mad because I so wanted to be happy when Roy Halladay came to Philly. He deserves better than a bittersweet welcome, however, Amaro has stolen our joy with his salary dump of Lee. Just when you think the Phillies organization is finished with it’s thrifty ways, they hit you with one of the biggest blunders in history. They raised tickets prices again this year, parking prices, and advertising fees. They also sold out almost all their games last year. They couldn’t fork over the 9 million for one stinkin’ year of Lee to send us back to the World Series as the favorites? Give me a break.
kaushal Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
is there even conformation that this deal went through? i havent seen or heard anything for a while now about lee
Andrew Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
Chris Wheeler LOL expert. Hadnt thought about him in awhile. Thanks for the laugh out loud.
karen Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
I am very mad. If Amaro wanted to be the “NL Yankees” a deal like this will not do it. Myers made 12.5 million and was released, moyer is on for 8million or so, and lee had to go to seattle? merry christmas seattle.
NateB Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Not sure which “experts” said it, I’ve been reading articles all day. This is the first post that claims they are all JUNK.
william Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Funny how everyone is an expert after the fact. Guess thats why thier are proffesionals and then thier are ungrateful fans
Ryan Hoffman Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
Might be the most misguided piece of writing I’ve ever seen on here.
Andrew Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
I refuse to totally call the lee trade a r- and let it taint the year. But if somehow that deal just didnt happen we would all be very happy. Maybe one of them fails thier physical? I thnk the mainstream media is portraying this as a 3 team trade. maybe once it is known that it isnt it can be stopped.
Jeff of Nova Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
Great Piece!!

This is exactly what I was thinking!
jr Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
Maybe the best, most informative article I’ve ever read on here. A+ Corey!!!
John Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
I wonder how everyone can hate this much.

1. We gave a couple of unproven prospects, and 1 year of an ace for a couple of unproven prospects, and 3 or 4 the BEST pitcher in ALL of baseball.

2. Anyone saying that the Phillies are cheap is completely wrong. They have the 6th or 7th biggest payroll in the MLB. In fact, in this economy, we should be thankful that they even raised their payroll

3. Also, the Phillies front office has earned our trust. If anything, we owe it to them to wait and see how this deal goes. They have moade tons of great deals over the past few years, that we have to give them our trust
Monktavian the Mediocre Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
You make some darned good points, Corey, that I did not realize. I was blinded by the Halladay acquisition. I cannot help but believe there is a master plan that this may be part of and not yet obvious. Maybe Lee was insulting to Amaro and Ruben just got rid of him quickly.
John Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
*3 or 4 of the best pitcher in baseball
NateB Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
Ok I need to backup what I stated. Jayson Stark wrote:

“Scouts we surveyed were split on whether the prospects exiting (Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor and Travis d’Arnaud) have a higher ceiling than the prospects arriving (Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies and J.C. Ramirez). But the whole group is “a bunch of legit prospects,” said one NL scout. “They’re not just throwing in a bunch of names to make this look good.”
Phil Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
I don’t 100% agree with this. I think the prospects we gave for Lee was a package than we received honestly. I think Knapp has a ton of potential, but Marson will amount to nothing because of his 0 power and bad defense. Donald will be a utility infieder, and Carrasco will be a 5th starter at best. Knapp is young and already has injury written all over him.

Comparing those prospects to what we got back is this. Ramirez has a ridiculously high ceiling, and if he can pitch to his potential I could honestly see him being a decent #3. Gillies could be a good CFer with a ton of OB skills and stolen bag skills with little power. I could see him being Shane Victorino if he reaches his ceiling. Aumont could be nothing, but his stuff is even better than Drabek. Both are injury risks, but I think Amaro sold high on Drabek. I think Aumont will either be an elite closer or a top of the rotation pitcher. As far as the 4th prospect, whoever it may be in this deal then you can say he was for Francisco. Regardless of the situation I don’t think it is terrible, but I agree we could have gotten a better package.
william Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
Every team saw what the phillies gave to get Lee did any one think the phillies would be given top prospect when they gave up second tier prospects to get him especially when the team Lee goes to will only have him for one year (outside the Yankees Red Soxs or Angels the only teams who could afford to extend him) any GM who would give top tier prospects for a one year rental would not be GM for long. Having your cake and eating too is great but not always going to happen
The Dipsy Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
Yes, there is a master plan. Well, its not actually a master plan. They still need some money for a quality back of the pen arm that could close if asked i.e. Rodney, Smoltz, etc. Thats where they feel they need to spend the money they “have left”. Disgusting.

The Dipsy
Phil Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
worse*
The Dipsy Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
Hey Phil, I didn’t know you were such an expert on fringe Seattle Mariners minor league prospects. So what else do you know? You, as we, have little idea what these cats are gonna do. I do agree they’re not scrubs. Put it this way, if one of the three has an average major league career, then that would be par for the course.

The Dipsy
Corey Seidman Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
Some good discussion going on here.

Montkavian – I doubt Lee was insulting to Amaro or anything like that, but he IS known for being somewhat of a “cold” individual. Hard to imagine based on what we saw from him last year performance-wise and personality-wise, but if you talk to most people who watched him in Cleveland, that opinion reigns supreme.

But that may mean nothing. That may have just been how he was in Cleveland based on unhappiness or bad relationships he had with certain guys. Do whatever you want with that information, I’m not saying it was a factor or not I’m just stating the facts.
Corey Seidman Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
Secondly, a problem I’m having deals with the fact that the Cliff Lee deal is not 100% official. If it isn’t, there is NO possible way that Ruben Amaro is oblivious to the media-panning he’s receiving, not only from blogs and fans, but from prestigious baseball writers across the country.

I’m not saying a General Manager truly cares enough about the media’s opinions that he’s going to be swayed enough to make or not make a trade, but SOME part of him and whoever is feeding him advice has to know that this trade is unnecessary at this exact second.

If Amaro waits three weeks to a month and trades Lee, fine. Hell, even if he waits a month and makes the same exact trade, fine. I just HATE the idea that this decision is being made so hastily. Lee doesn’t HAVE to go anywhere right this minute. Sleep on it a bit. Keep shopping Blanton. (If they just non-tendered Blanton none of this would matter. He’s not worth $7-7.5M anyway.)

If you have Halladay-Lee-Hamels, you can make do with a bullpen of Lidge, Madson, Romero, Durbin, Bastardo, and a few other low-cost signings or minor-leaguers. Scott Mathieson will be JUST as good, if he stays healthy, as Fernando Rodney could be at CBP next year. Period.
Buster Heyman Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
I’m far from a Phillies boot licker, but this was the dumbest post I’ve read concerning the trade. This was the most incredible trade this franchise has ever made. When Lee turned down the extension offer and Halladay was back on the market the team was faced with a choice. Keep our prospects and Lee’s final year as a Phillie. Trade Lee for other prospects and trade ours for Halladay. Sure, everyone’s dream including mine was that we have both. Not the case. And it was both money and an empty cupboard that lead to the Lee trade. The obvious choice and the right choice was made here. I back this one 100%.
Buster Heyman Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Btw, Baseball America has Aumont rated higher than Drabek.
Corey Seidman Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Buster – you may not have read carefully. I, too, believe the Halladay trade was brilliant.

The Lee trade was its own separate entity. It was hastily put together and saw a great pitcher go for much less than his actual worth.

And to those saying that its essentially Marson-Carrasco-Knapp-Donald for Aumont-Gillies-Ramirez…just because Amaro stole him from Shapiro doesn’t make it acceptable to have him stolen back by Jack Z.
Griffin Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Keith Law on the Phillies: “They swap one ace for a very slightly better ace in Roy Halladay, whose value over Lee may be as much in his stronger track record as in pitching ability. The price they pay for this small improvement is a major dent in their farm system, trading a superior package of prospects to Toronto for the three players they landed from Seattle in the exchange for Lee. I’m not sure why the Phillies — who were the favorites to win the NL East in 2010 before this move — were motivated to make the trade; yes, they can sign Halladay to an extension and couldn’t sign Lee, but that’s independent of the deals used to obtain one pitcher and trade the other. They might be half a win better in 2010, a whole win at most, but deleted a lot of value from what was a solid farm system before they made the moves.”
Griffin Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
Buster, that Baseball America list that you are looking at is old. Their mid-season ranking had Drabek in the top 20 and Aumont didn’t crack the top 50.
george Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
why didn’t they just keep cliff lee for a year and take the 2 draft picks you get when he goes elsewhere?and also why didn’t they give up happ instead of drabek happs not bad but i don’t think he’s as good as the season he has last year drabek has more upside.
SAMSOAP Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:45 pm
I already sent an email to the Phillies asking them to reconsider the Lee deal to Seattle…send emails lets crash their site with KEEP LEE emails…I also offered to send $10 bucks for the KEEP LEE FUND…Send emails let them hear our anger over the LEE portion of this deal. Thank you for your support!
Desi Relaford Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:45 pm
I’m just as confused as everyone about why we would trade Lee for 3 prospects when it seems we didn’t have to. But I am comforted by one thing: the man who moved Lee, who everyone now calls a moron, was also hailed as a genius this past year for stealing Lee and signing Ibanez and letting Burrell walk. There are two options, either Ruben is in fact a moron and made a horrible trade to deal Lee, or that the situation is more complicated than we’ve made it out to be and that he knows what he’s doing. I’m thinking he’s the same GM we praised after the trade deadline and that although we don’t understand it, he made the best move for the club in some way we can’t explain just yet.

Love, Desi Relaford, the Greatest Phillie Ever
Chaze Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:46 pm
Everyone, please look at the big picture here. With Halladay and Lee the Phils have one shot at winning the Series again once (next year) in about the next 5-10 years. With Halladay on board and most of the offense in place for the next few years they have a legitimate chance of winning it again the next 2 or 3 years. If that was the net result of this trade I’m okay with that.

After Lee leaves and no farm system to speak of the Phils would have to tear it down and start all over again. I’m getting too old for that. I don’t know about you.
Corey Seidman Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
No, Chaze. With Halladay and Lee they have a chance next year. Then Lee walks. But the Phillies still have Halladay and the entire nucleus of this team EXCEPT for Lee, which means that they have shots to win it in 2011, 2012, and probably 2013.
Just Crushed Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
Amaro should be run out of town…think about it we rented Lee for 3 months for Carrasco, Marson etc. last summer. Amaro says Drabek and Taylor are untouchable last year and this winter and he gets rid of them, too. He depleted the future. Check back in two years…the Phillies were on there way to being able to dominate for a decade. Wait till he lets Werth go next year. Then the very old over-paid Ibanez retires the year after that and Howard becomes a free agent. Polanco…over paid for three years is 36. Rollins in the broadcast booth. See the picture??? Victorino a Free Agent. No catcher in the farm system. Cholly 70 something years old. Amaro reminds me of the kid on “The Jetson’s” with the propellar on his head…just a little boy getting outsmarted by men. He was always Gillick’s puppet….learned nothing but how to waste money. This team has not improved at all this winter….Our pitching from top to Lidge is not enough to win a championship.
SAMSOAP Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
a part of the farm system is to facilitate trades…its working
Jay Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
Here’s another fun thing about this whole situation, Anything goes wrong with 1 pitcher in our starting rotation we will be able to do nothing in terms of trading for a pitcher at the deadline. Our current Starting rotation is Halladay, Hamels, Happ, Blanton, and Kendrick or moyer (or some1 i’m unaware of)

Now Halladay and Hamels i’m not concerned about, neither am I with Blanton, he’s been fairly consistent at being decent, but I am definitely worried about that 5th spot, I don’t think there is a starting pitcher in either Moyer or Kendrick and what do we do then? Do we go further into our depleted Farm system and trade to get a mid season replacement to keep us competitive? Furthermore, say our 5th spot is shaky, but what do we do if Happ goes into a sophomore slump? There is no guarantee that he is able to continue what he did 1 season ago…

We have locked ourselves into the rotation that we start next season off with, hopefully we get Chan Ho Park to come back who can help bull pen and also provide us with a pitcher we can use to possibly start if something goes wrong.

Just my .02
George Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Two things not mentioned about the prospects involved:

The three the Phils gave up are all closer to the major leagues than the three they got from Seattle. That counts for something.

The prospects they gave up to get Lee in the first place were also closer, with the exception of Knapp. Marson actually played last year, and Donald was protected in the Rule 5 draft.

Whether or not any of these guys are equal in upside, I’d still take the ones I could use the soonest, especially with potential free agents in the near future.

Remember, that with the $20 million going to Halladay in 2011, the Phils won’t have the money to re-sign anyone, such as Werth, Blanton, or Victorino. Aumont, Gillies, and Ramirez will not be ready by then. Taylor and Drabek would have been.
george Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
the polanco signing wasn’t anygood either he’s what 35 now and is on a decline and he gives him a 3 year deal?amaro is tearing apart this team signing all these old guys and trading away our entire farm system for 2 players and one of em leaving now for basically nothing in return.
george Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:58 pm
they’ll be able to keep victorino,but i don’t think their keeping werth since halladay is making $20 mil and they gotta get ready and offer howard a big contract extension his is running up.
Just Crushed Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 9:58 pm
Moyer should back the 8 million he is stealing from us this year and let us keep Lee. And to my friend SamSoap…I agree and now we have nothing left to give for the next 5 years. George is also correct…don’t expect little Amaro to be able to resign anyone. Of course…he is incapable of signing anyone who is under 32 anyway.
Buster Heyman Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
My bad on the Baseball America reference. I stand corrected. I apologize for being a bit harsh too, but I’ve been debating this all day. For what it’s worth, I enver thought I’d see the day where we were debating which Cy Young winner we wanted as our ace. In a perfect world we would have both but the Phillies have never been perfect which makes this time so wonderful to be a fan. I will go to bed tonight, happy that we have the best pitcher in baseball. As for Lee, I nor shall anyone who saw it, ever forget what he did for this club down the stretch and in the postseason. Truly a pleasure to watch him pitch for the home team.
SAMSOAP Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
What is the weakness of our farm system…Infield prospects…What is strength…Pitching and OF…Why didnt Amaro atleast get their top SS prospect in the deal….Truinfald ( something like that) he is supposed to be in their top five prospects
George Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
I also don’t think we got Halladay at “below market value.” He would have required an extension from any team, so he was of value to only the few teams who could do that. The Yanks and Sox didn’t want to pay the price Toronto was asking; he may not have agreed to go to the Angels. Toronto had to get rid of him, and if really pressed, would probably have given him up for less. Halladay cost three top prospects, not much less than he would have cost mid-summer, when a team would have gotten him for one and a half years even without an expensive extension. The Phils didn’t overpay, but they certainly didn’t get him at a bargain basement price.
cxl72 Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
Don’t overlook the powerful precedent this sets for future free agents. Guys like Jayson Werth that have said they want to play here will see that they can’t play out their contract and leave us holding the bag. Look for Amaro to extend Werth soon.
Just Crushed Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
Amaro isn’t smart enough to extend Werth (and remember the ownership said we don’t have the money…because Amaro blew it on players like Moyer). Read Jayson Starks article on ESPN. Cliff Lee is pissed about this and the way he was treated by Amaro. He loved it here…..Watch him win 20 games for Seattle…just watch.
Corey Seidman Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
I was always under the impression that Brown and Taylor would replace Werth and Ibanez, since they’d essentially replace the production for much less money.

With Taylor gone and Brown likely to take over for Ibanez in a few years, extending Werth should be an avenue to explore relatively soon.
Just Crushed Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
Fact: 2010 Salaries
Moyer 8 million…done at end of 2010
Blanton 7 million…Free Agent at end of 2010
Lee 9 million…Free Agent at end of 2010

Look what we got Moyer and Blanton.
Look what we could have had…Halladay and Lee

Who would you much rather have?

In the great Salary dump of 2009, Amaro gives away Cliff Lee instead of the old man and fat boy who eat up 17 million. An embarrassing moment indeed, one that will make us the laughing stock of baseball for years.
BS Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
Anyone else think Halladay and Utley are going to become best buds? Everything I read about Halladay makes it sound like he’s the pitchers version of Chase. Maybe Roy can also teach Cole how to throw a proper curveball.
cxl72 Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
Cliff Lee overplayed his hand and is now in Seattle which is one of the most remote outposts of MLB. We may see Ryan Howard traded this time next year if he wants to maximize his value and go the FA route if anyone will take his $20mil 2011 pricetag. If you want to test free agency you may get shipped out.

Another byproduct is no worries about the Mets or another team getting Halladay and jamming up the Phillies. Just like last year getting Lee kept him off the Dodgers. You can’t underestimate how valuable keeping him away from the competition was to the 2009 Phils.

Also, its huge to have our rotation set in December and the Phils should be favored to win the NL East by at least 5 games. Will they win the 2010 World Series? Who knows? A lot has to go right.

But they’ve made the 2010 season a little clearer by taking the best pitcher in baseball off the market.
Corey Seidman Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
But this wasn’t about money, it was about prospects. It wasn’t a salary dump. If it was strictly a salary dump, Blanton would have been non-tendered, or he or Moyer would have been traded for absolutely nothing.

Don’t lose sight of that. This was about prospects. Which is fine. Amaro just should have sat on it for a few weeks and gotten better prospects, because this wasn’t enough of a return if he wanted to trade Cliff Lee so badly.
Jay Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:42 pm
Even if it’s about prospects we still have a right to be mad as we didn’t consult any other teams about what they’d give up for Cliff Lee…
Corey Seidman Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
Agreed. That was the entire point of the article. The point was be mad.
Just Crushed Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
I wish Harry Kalas was still here to help clear this up! I am sure he is looking down on this.
cxl72 Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
Corey,

It doesnt appear that this was part of some big elaborate plan that played out perfectly. Why bid on Brandon Lyon last week, drop Feliz, give Polanco $6mil and offer Blanton arbitration if they had this up their sleeve. If they paid 1/2 Moyer’s salary I’m sure he would be “tradeable”. They could have freed up money if they would have prepared a bit more. Did they have to wait until last week to understand Cliff Lee’s demands??

I don’t “hate” where they are at right now but I don’t believe it was some grand plan with Rube as a brilliant puppet master cackling right now based on his brilliant strategy.
kaushal Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
THE DEAL HAS NOT GON THROUGH YET. THERE COULD BE WAY MORE TO THIS
Geoff Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
I like Aumont. When he gets healthy well see how well he develops. He reminds me of Lowe a bit, but as a power reliever. Hard hard sinker. Ramirez and Gilles have upside. The Phillies sitll have PLENTY of money left to get a late inning reliever and a 5th starter.

THey werent gonna keep Lee, so they traded their prospects for FOUR YEARS of Halladay, which is fine with me.
Corey Seidman Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
CXL72, I completely agree. What perturbs me the most about this is the lack of planning. If this were some elaborate scheme, it would have made more baseball sense to either non-tender or trade Blanton for absolutely nothing, and just take the 2 first-round picks after Cliff Lee leaves next season.

Aumont, Gillies, and Ramirez are all a ways away from major-league ready. So why not have an epic 2010 season and get 2 first-rounders in next years draft? That way, you can literally PICK the prospects you want. And they’d only be two-years “less-ready” than the package the Phils got from Seattle.

The craziest part about it is, even though the draft picks would be two/three years behind Aumont, Gillies, Ramirez, the Phillies don’t NEED THEM UNTIL THEN ANYWAY! Halladay is here until 2013, but probably 2015 since there is definitely one vesting option and probably a second one according to Jayson Stark. Most of this current nucleus will be here until 2013. Even if certain guys’ contracts are up before then, they’ll still be here because they’ll sign new contracts.

Just awful planning.
cxl72 Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
Maybe its the cold weather or the Halliday madness but I expect Kendrick to be a useful starter and win at least 10 games for us. He showed me some things down the stretch. Maybe Halliday can teach KK a few things.
cxl72 Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 11:01 pm
Spot on Corey. I can’t wait for the press conference tomorrow to learn more. Take care….
SpankyYankee Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
Ha Ha Ha …what a deal you’d think Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi made it for with a little help from the “anointed one”…..bad bad bad….guess we won’t be seeing you guys in November next year…oh well ..if ya don’t want to spend the money ….but make sure you fill those seats….and drink that beer so the owners ….who by the way they have more money then old George S. does only difference is he’ll spend it ….your cigar sucking owners won’t…..they know you will flock to the park….you get what the owners deem good enough…..difference with the 2009 WORLD SERIES NEW YORK YANKESS’S is they fill the seats home or away….you guys still second rate….only filled at home …..you know at that bar where the guy got his brains kicked in by other philly fans…split his head open like the liberty bell….any way look at the back end of the contract …..your wonderful owners are going to crap-out something like $20,000,000…now thats a big POOP!…..Maybe Hamels can teach Roy how to fake injuries and only pitch after 7:00pm. I think the owners were a little short in thinking this is the best they could do….you can bet the prices are gonna go alot higher over the next few years….and I heard from my friend at 610 radio they are gonna charge for tissues….so bring your own hankie…says Spankee Yankee….only in YANKEE LAND can you have your cake and eat it too…..going for number 28 in 2010…….Hasta la vista Babies
Stuart Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
I dont know how anyone isnt upset. I dont care, DONT CARE, what kind of prospects we got back or gave or whatever. I want to win when we can win. I am extremely happy about having Halladay for long term. That is awesome. That is worth the prospects. But why are we getting rid of Lee? Trade blanton for a bottle of beer and a cigar to smoke when youre on the World Series parade float. Could anyone beat us in the playoffs with our lineup and a 1 2 punch of Halladay and Lee. So stop comparing the prospects. I dont care. I want to win now. In 5 years we might be good, we might be bad but we dont know. Right now were good, and had a shot to be the best and we blew it. RAJ dropped the ball on this one. Let one of the best rotations in baseball slip away.
Stuart Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
One thing to keep in mind. Not as much has been said about the Lee deal. Really all I heard was that it was a three team deal. Once it turned into two seperate deals it died down a bit. There was talk of the Phillies prospects going to Seattle. But all the articles I find and the stuff on the mariners website says they are close. You think maybe it wont go through? We can only hope right.
kaushal Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
thats exactly what im thinking. i have seen nothing of the lee deal for hours now. since the news broke about the hallway specifics. maybe something else is going on
jt Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 11:42 pm
ruben did drop the ball on this one…why not trade blanton even if it means getting nothing in return and keep lee?why don’t moyer just retire because either way he’s not gonna be a starter all he’s doing is robbing us of money greedy bastard resigning him for 2 years was a big mistake.
wbodisc Says:
December 15th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
It’s hard to call a team with the Phils’ payroll cheap. But if these moves aren’t about money, how come Drabek was untouchable in July when we had a world championship to defend, but is suddenly available now that ownership can get Halladay’s name on a contract for less than Lee would cost?
Brooks Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:05 am
Corey why don’t you as the common thread to these 3 teams? Pat Gillick. I might imagine he would have a pretty good idea.
Philly Texan Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:09 am
The key to all this is Cole Hamels:

If he pitches this year like we all know he can, then the Phils will have the best 1-2 punch in baseball and we’ll all forget about Cliff Lee by midseason.

But if Hamels struggles again this year, we’ll spend the entire season wishing we had Halladay, Lee, Hamels instead of just Halladay and Hamels.

Here’s hoping the kid is practicing a cutter at this very moment……
Philly Texan Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:10 am
If this trade was a Pat Gillick creation, how come the Orioles weren’t the fourth team?
Brooks Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:21 am
Orioles could use a starter (or 2) plenty of good looking young prospects there –
It’s going to be a fantastic summer – I dont think I’ve felt this much optimism since eh, last spring – GO PHILS!
SAMSOAP Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:26 am
Corey two questions…did deadline to offer arbitration come before the Halliday thing came up if so they were already tied into Blanton and Durbin…I can see management saying we will not sign off on Halliday unless you clear salary immediately…I would have given Rube the next two months he couldve moved Blanton…there are reports he couldnt get right prospects for Blanton…who cares…He needed to go for it…Also why didnt Rube get any Infield prospects we are loaded in OF and P ( i know you can never have enough P)..aghhhhh!
Dave Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:46 am
Wow, I feel like I just won a Ferrari and then totaled it without any insurance. This hurts. I am shocked that Lee is gone – I was excited to have him here again. The reality is they could only keep one of them for any length of time – they chose Halliday. But the deal for Lee was pretty terrible, I’m surprised.
Well, that said it isn’t over yet Rueban could still pull off another deal and probably will.
Halliday is awesome – awesome. Lee had a decent year and a fantastic play-offs but I think Halliday is the better pitcher – 20 wins and maybe 25 is not out of the question. The guy is a devestating pitcher, I watched almost every game from late June to his last start – he was the best pitcher I watched last year.
I will miss Clifford though, he proved he could be awesome too.
Brooks Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:58 am
A right handed strike out pitcher – if Cole is back on focus, I can see easily 400 (+) strike outs between the 2.

Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball today. And he’s ours until 2014.

Sweet
Nationals #1 Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:01 am
pat gillick made ruben give lee to seattle
Andrew Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:16 am
Aumont had his physical. Deals done. Deal with it people. This is about trying to have some farm system. And the reality that we should be in good shape this year regardless.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/marinersblog/2010516843_phillippe_aumont_takes_physica.html
Adam B. Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:23 am
As a Seattle Mariners fan I have mixed emotions…

Obviously (and this isn’t meant as a rub-in) I’m ecstactic and over-joyed at the jaw-dropping one-sidedness of this trade, but on the other hand, as a Mariner fan through the Bavasi era, I know full well the “hole in your stomuch” feeling you get from being on the arse end of a major deal.

I guess what I’m trying to say is; Phillies fans, you have my sympathy, but not my remorse.
Brooks Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 6:49 am
My good friend moved to Seattle in 01 and has become a fan of the M’s and has suffered.
No disrespect to Mariners fans but, the addition of Lee is not going to do much for the Mariners this year and likely next year he will be gone.
I think if Lee decides the money is good enough in Seattle, his career will fade there and he will never again smell the high voltage of a WS championship.
His agent has said that the Lee contingent was never approached by the Phils organization about playing here and that Lee “hoped to be able to finish his career in Philadelphia…”
I don’t buy it.
bfo_33 Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 7:00 am
Nice article, but overly pessismistic. After the last 120 years, maybe that is built into the psyche of all Phils fans.
I don’t see how the Halladay trade could have been better. Drabek wasn’t in the mix last year because Bavasi wouldn’t allow a 24 hr window to negotiate an extension with Doc. They also wanted Brown over Taylor.
I agree that there was no rush to get rid of Lee. I would rather have kept him and given away Blanton in a salary dump. If still no takers, we would have been better off shopping Lee a little more, getting a 3rd or short prospect.
Only time will tell if the Lee deal was a good one, but overall, I think Ruben is being creative and giving it effort. The stadium is sold out, the Phils don’t have the big network revenue of the Yanks or Red Sox, so they have to stay on budget. The payroll is still in going to be in the top 5, and they are the NL favorites going into the season. While Atlanta has improved, every other team is either staying the same or getting worse. We got a little bit better this off-season. It’s good to be a Phils fan right now.
Keith E Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 7:27 am
Spending an extra 9 mil for this year alone would not have broken the bank. We never know what next year will hold for us, injury, discontent, death. WTF take a shot! It’s only one year that the stars are aligned like they were. We have some good players up for free agency next year and there is no guarantee that any or all of them stay. We could easily be next year’s LA Angels! 9 mil for Lee. That’s Eaton money!
@RAJ: You should have kept Lee.
And furthermore, why was beer an extra $1 at the WFS last year?
Come on, think real big.
GO PHILS!!!
Stuart Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 7:39 am
The mariners were a solid team last year and with their now 1 2 punch they will be contending for the playoffs. so whoever said the M’s arnt going to compete with Lee…youre wrong.
Brooks Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 7:48 am
bfo – in every category except for the BP the Phils have improved a lot.
Ruben said the BP is next, lets see if there is anything left.

I’m ready –

With the Eagles just about to clinch their division and perhaps a first round home field advantage, all the talk is about the Phillies.
Brooks Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 8:21 am
The M’s have added Figgins and now Lee. It still won’t be happening in Seattle.
Their HR slugger was Branyan – who got injured and did not play the last 2 months of the season, he wound up with 31 hrs in 116 games and is after all, Russell Branyan. His career batting average is .234, he played in 116 games last year, the most he has played in his entire career (since 1998).
Next in the power department was (2nd baseman) Jose Lopez who had decent numbers 25/96/272 average.
Beltre, who has been quite the disappointment since his 04 monster (juiced?) season with the Dodgers hit 8 hrs.
King Felix and Lee will make quite the formidable 1-2 punch but there is little to nothing after that. If Bedard could play for at least 3/4 of a season that would help but he spends quite a bit of time on the DL. But, he is after all Erik Bedard – always a lot of promise.
The M’s have to compete with the Angels and the Rangers. Good luck.
They will become a better team with Figgins and Lee aboard but it is not enough.
Dhall Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 8:24 am
Trading Lee for crap will go down as one of the biggest blunders in the history of this organization. The Mariners farm system is ranked in the bottom 3rd in baseball. If someone gives you the best entree from Earl’s Truck Stop, does that mean it’s good? Lee’s value was never any higher than it is now. He dominated the best lineup in baseball in front of the entire world. Great teams find a way to keep both pitchers. Boston just added Lackey to go with Beckett and Lester. They didn’t sign Lackey and then dump Beckett. What a joke.
Ed R. Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 8:25 am
Sorry for chiming in so late. Been rather busy lately. First off, great write up Corey. Really enjoyed it. I think it certainly was a great avenue to get people talking.

Here is my take on this, and it is just an opinion so take it at that.

I like the Halladay deal. I don’t love it. But I like it. I think Halladay will add some obvious stability over the next few years. I think he is the perfect pitcher, skill set wise for this ball park and he has the right frame of mind to pitch in Philly. His numbers against the Yankees alone make him legit, nevermind everything else he has done in arguably the best offensive division in baseball. In theory Halladay should save our bullpen to a degree as he will pitch deeper into games than what we might be accustomed to. All positives. And clearly 4 years of Halladay is better than 1 year of Lee.

But then I look at the flip side. I personally didn’t think Lee would be with this team going into the season anyway because I just couldn’t see the Phillies going into the season with a rotation that consisted of 4 left handers in what is predominantly a right handed hitting league. So honestly I was not totally shocked to see him go. I do think the prospects we got for him are legit, I think Aumont is our future closer and I am ok with that. The Phillies had to trade Lee. Not because of salary, though I think it played a part in the decision. I think salary is used as an easy scapegoat. Especially when you consider what Moyer is going to make in what can only be described as a “Caught up in the moment” contract, and what Blanton will make in arbitration. But honestly, 7.5 mil for Blanton, is not bad at all. In the grand scheme, that is probably a discount. Not nearly the discount that Lee was at 9 mil but still, it’s not awful.

No, Lee was clearly traded away because Amaro wanted prospects, he didn’t want his minor league system to resemble a homeless person’s refrigerator. He needed prospects so that he has the option of making trades down the road without having to sacrifice guys already on his roster. That is clearly what Amaro is thinking. Is it totally wrong? No. Is it totally right? No.

Like Corey said, had they just let Lee walk, they would get 2 first rounders, who should be ready when the Phillies will need them. 2015 or so. Assuming the Earth is still around. It could all just blow up in our faces and then none of this will matter but thats a whole other topic.

Halladay-Lee-Hamels is really a pipe dream. Not a totally unobtainable pipe dream mind you, but it was never really within reach.

I am sure Amaro would have loved to have traded Blanton for prospects, I am sure he tried, I know he tried. But he saw the value he was getting for Lee was far greater than what he was being offered for Blanton. It would have been amazing for the Phillies to have arguably the best 3 headed monster in baseball history, might have even won them the World Series. But we will never know. And for anyone out there that thinks this season is a failure if we don’t get to the Series and insists that its because we don’t have Cliff Lee, then please take off your fan goggles and check yourself into reality. Just the task of making it to the Series 3 times in a row is astronomically slim, let alone winning it. Sure it can be done, anything can but nothing is a guarantee. Just ask the Met’s.

I just hope Seattle can resign Lee and he does not end up anywhere in the NYY/LA or Boston area. Seattle has the money. I don’t think most people realize this but Seattle has the 2nd biggest baseball market in the majors. Behind only NY. Reason being, their games are shown in China, Japan, parts of Canada and some of the surrounding states. Look at a map, there are not exactly a whole lot of teams located close to them. They have a huge market both geographically and monetarily. This is not the first time they are spending their money, I just hope for their sake it works this time. I will also add in that although I am a devoted Phillies fan, I also have a rooting interest in the Mariners as well. Since the early 90’s, when Seattle actually became a good squad I started following them and have ever since. Certainly I don’t lose sleep over them like I do the Phillies, nor will I name my first born son after anyone on the Mariners past and present like I will with the Phillies but I do care to a degree. So I do have some knowledge on the Mariners prospects and I do think we are making out just fine.
JBP Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 8:25 am
the poster is exactly right. the phillies had a chance to send out the best rotation in team history for the 2010 season. a rotation that most likely would have brought another division title and probably another nl title. instead, amaro got nervous about baseball america writing an article saying that the phillies went from the 4th best minor league system to the 25th. like the poster states, if money was the issue, trade blanton for a C or D prospect. there’s $7M. figure out something for the remaining $2M. then, in 2011 when lee goes to the yankees or red sox, you sign a low double-digit salary pitcher.

before you ask, yes, i’m completely fine with PERHAPS sacrificing our future for knowing FOR SURE you’ve given your team–a PROVEN WINNER–it’s best possible chance to bring the world series trophy back to philly.
Ed R. Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 8:27 am
The Angels just lost Vlad, Figgins and Lackey, pretty sure they are not going to be nearly as good as they were last year.

Rangers lost Millwood, and although he is no Ace, he was a big reason they were as good as they were pitching wise.

Don’t be shocked if the Mariners make a serious run at Jason Bay now.
Matt M Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 8:33 am
I think people are overrating the fact that having Lee and Hallady would lead to a championship. Take a look at other great rotations since the 3-round format started in 1995:

Braves with Glavine, Smoltz and Maddux- 1 WS championship in 9 trips to the playoffs together.

Yankees with Clemens, Mussina, Pettitte-0 WS championships in 4 trips to the playoffs together.

Diamondbacks with Schilling and Johnson- 1 WS in 2 trips to the playoffs together.

A’s with Mulder, Zito, Hudson- 0 WS championships 0 playoff series wins in 4 trips to the playoffs together.

So having a dominant rotation even for one year doesn’t assure the Phillies of anything once the playoffs start.
Ed R. Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 8:38 am
I agree Matt. Though having Lee-Hamels-Halladay certainly increases the chances of success, it guarantee’s nothing.
JBP Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 8:47 am
@ Matt M.

well, yes, but NOTHING assures success in the playoffs. the point is, if you can do it, give yourself the best shot to succeed. and the phillies could have done it: if they wanted to risk depleting their farm system.

i would be singing a different tune if this was a “get us over the hump” move. by that i mean if we were coming up just short of making the playoffs or getting to the playoffs and not having success. i’m not a fan of risking the future for making a move that maybe gives the big club a better shot of success in the playoffs. the first step is to prove that the core has what it takes and then you can get aggressive with moving your prospects. well, as we all know, the core is rock solid.
keng Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 8:51 am
heres my theory – what went down had something to do with gillick – and amaro’s relationship with gillick and the whole toronto organziation – my guess is gillick, ex-gm of all 3 orgs, was the grand orchestrator of all this – he came to amaro and said hey heres a way to make the phils better and the mariners better and even help toronto get what they want – and if all the pieces were inextricably entwined and had to go together, he was probably right – this is a trade we do even giving up the minor league talent we did bc we landed for 5 years one of the best 3 pitchers in the game – but when the trade shifted and there was no longer any cross swapping, the mariners were no longer sending critical components to the blue jays, no longer any triangulation, than it, unfortunately for amaro, opened up the big second guess question that otherwise wouldnt have been a part of this – why trade lee for 3 not unbelievable prospects??? – especially when not trading him would have made u a world series favorite??? – and u might even have figured out how to keep him after this year if u had all that amount of success ???- but amaro had to keep going all the way with this even when that traingulation went away or he would have hung the orchestrator of the deal, his friend and mentor, and the mariners out to dry!!!! – and thats what i think went on behind the scenes and explains this otherwise stupid deal – atleast the lee part – so amaro just had to suck it up and take this one for gillick!! – and thats life in the big leagues!! – the great irony will be seattle winning the whole thing this year with lee on the hill!!!!!!! – by the way, i agree, that was the best entry piece ive ever read on here – it really distilled clearly and beautifully this whole confusing mess – and it made it easy to understand why one can feel so good and so bad at the same time – 2 trades ultimately – 1 good – 1 terrible!!
NJ Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 8:54 am
Just can’t believe how much bad press there is against this deal. Guys like Keith Law just make me sick in their unwavering opinions on some teams, he never has ANYTHING good to say about anything the Phillies do and as much as I think he’s good at assessing individual players he never sees the big picture and boy was he right about the Mets and Rays being the teams to watch last year…
keng Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 8:58 am
actually – having written what i just wrote – i want to add that this whole trade depresses me – i think holiday may be a little better – but we did great with lee – so who knows – and i think we may have given away 1 or 2 great players that could have really helped us over the next 10 years and depleted our farm system – these mariners guys were not even the top picks in a farm system that is rated one of the worst in baseball – so we’ll see but……..
NJ Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 9:10 am
^big picture says the Phils could afford to make this deal. As good as Drabek and Taylor are viewed Brown is meant to be our prized prospect, we have to believe the Phillies have enough material on the Seattle prospects to have a plan for them and we still have a plethora of prospects particularly outfielders and pitchers at various levels of the farm.

There’s so much being said against Aumont here but these were the exact things being said about Drabek prior to TJ surgery and people stopped talking about him after that surgery until he was so far back on the radar you couldn’t ignore him and even then until last year EVERYONE viewed him in the same way Aumont is viewed now as a back-end reliever. I don’t know Aumont past remember how loved he was when he was drafted and yes he isn’t as good as Drabek but who’s to say he won’t ascend to the same level as Drabek? Who’s to say Ramirez won’t reach that level as well or instead or maybe a couple of guys we’ve barely heard of recently signed of drafted will be the new gems of the farm. When you look at what we have in the minors the Phillies are producing an almost unparalleled amount of prospects capable of reaching the majors in the next 1-3 years and by that time every teams farm will look nothing like the farm they have then.

I’m not meaning to criticize those who think this isn’t a good deal for the Phils, I’m just saying break it down and look at the big picture. Look at the team right now and what is realistic, look at the farm compared to other teams in the division NL and the majors. Look at how good Halladay actually is because when this team isn’t winning NL pennants (and sooner or later it will happen) I don’t know about you but I want him as the centrepeice that keeps this team as close to the top as baseball law will allow.

3 division titles, 2 NL titles, back to back World Series appearances and a World Championship, this front office is doing something right…
Matt M Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 9:21 am
JBP-I agree in a perfect world I would have loved it if they were able to Cliff Lee. But that post was a response to people who act like it’s a foregone conclusion that they aren’t going back to the World Series because they traded Lee. And honestly they aren’t going anywhere if they don’t fix the bullpen and if trading Lee allows them to make that upgrade I’m fine with this trade.
NJ Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 9:25 am
We have to dispel this idea that Lee is about as good as Halladay. As good as Lee was in the post-season so was Hamels the year before, Andy Pettitte is considered to be one of the best post-season pitchers of all time but overall few people think he’s going to be a hall of famer.

Cliff Lee is considered right now to be a borderline top 15 pitcher, with one Cy Young and one more year to back it up in a contract year seeking top 3 money at the postion and not guaranteed to yield a first round compensation pick (he could have signed with a bottom 15 team and remember the Jays only got 3rd round compensation plus supplementary pick for Burnett).

Roy Halladay is considered to be the best pitcher of the past decade and he’s by no means old or a serious injury threat. He’s a Cy Young winner who has finished near the top of Cy Young voting in I believe half of his seasons in the majors pitching in the toughest division in baseball on a bad team. He is a top 5 pitcher which is a hell of an upgrade over a top 15 pitcher because those top 5+ are in a different class to the guys who are elite but aren’t in that top bracket. Roy Halladay will be here for a minimum of 4 years with an option for a 5th year.

Most of us are cross over sports fans so I’ll put it in these terms, would you rather have Peyton Manning for possibly the rest of his career or Matt Schaub in a contract year seeking top 3 money? The rest of the factors trust the front ofice can adapt and overcome IF there are major negatives otherwise you might as well throw out ALL your 2007-09 memorabilia in which go on spread the hate to your hearts content, just don’t believe your views are objective.
Jason Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 9:45 am
Couple things to think about. First we all loved the way Lee pitched in the WS. But we also loved the way Cole pitched in 2008. No way to know if Lee will be a cy young type pitcher or the guy who was in the minors in 2007 (maybee it was 2006) or some where in the middle. Also they may have asked around about Lee and the M’s gave us the best offer. Now Rube might hold off a lttle bit to see if anyone else offers a nicer deal if not he takes the M’s deal. Last of all the M’s could be playing chicken with us and put a deadline on the present offer
Jeff of Nova Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 9:47 am
Has anyone come to the notion that the Lee deal is not final and has not been confirmed as final.

Halladay has been in Philly took a Physical, talk extension and has passed and said to have reached an agreement, making that deal almost complete.

The Lee deal is seperate, Cliff has not been to Seattle, he has not actually been in contact about this at all, other than the media. I find that part of this so fascinating. I am not saying Lee is going to stay, but maybe RAJ is fielding other offers here. He easily could get the Angels in the bidding as well.

Rumor is that Doc will be announced today, but the Lee deal I think is still a little raw and will take a couple days
Stuart Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 9:47 am
NJ all I have to say to your last paragraph is what???? How is that anything like what this is. You said you could either have arguably the greatest quarterback of all time or some scrub for one year. That is nthing like this. If it was a straight up trade Lee for Halladay. Awesome thats great. But we couldve had both.
Ben Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 10:00 am
we didn’t get fleeced in the lee deal, plain and simple. we should have gotten a little more (a mlb reliever, or another prospect) but thats about it. rube gets an A for the halladay deal (getting the top pitcher in baseball, extending him to a below market deal with an option, not losing anyone on the mlb roster) and gets maybe a C for the lee deal, b/c he should have gotten a little more.

the jays guys aren’t junk, they are way better than what we gave to the indians. i’m not going to puss around because we should have gotten a little more for lee. it sucks, but the doc will make things feel better.
derekcarstairs Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Great Post!

According to Lee’s agent, the Phillies and he spoke very little about a Lee extension. Lee supposedly was amenable to an extension, just not when he was still with the Indians. If this is true, did the Phillies drop the ball on the entire deal? I would have had some serious talks with Lee’s agent beginning immediately after the World Series. By the time of the Winter Meetings, we would have known definitively if it was possible to extend Lee.

I believe that Halladay is a potential Hall of Famer and that Lee is merely excellent. That said, if I could extend Lee for three years with one or two additional option years, I would have kept Lee and our own prospects.

The quality of the Ms prospects we’re getting does not seem that high. Aumont, for example, a minor leaguer with very few innings, is already in the bullpen. I don’t think that top relievers move to the bullpen so early in their careers. Baseball America rates our minor league system near the top and the Ms near the bottom. If we had to deal Lee, we should have shopped him to a team with stronger prospects.
Ben Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 10:12 am
anyone think that lees agent is just saving face to make lee look like not a bad guy?

lee was in a contract year, and has already publicly said he wants to test free agency. as an agent, if you don’t come out and say you are interested in sitting down and discussing an extension, and your player doesn’t have a NTC, then you cannot say that the rug was pulled from you when he is traded.

its like the girl who is indifferent to you, then you move on with your life, and she’s amazed and bewildered by it. i’m not saying lee is a bad guy, but i think a lot of this backlash is that people liked lee and started feeling comfortable seeing him in philly. yes, we should have gotten more, but not a ton more. the gap between lee for one year and halladay for 4-5 years is ridiculously large. to expect the same return is ridiculous.
Pat Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 10:21 am
Well said, agree with everything you said 100%! Love RoyBoy, but would loved to have lee for one year. Way Way to much is being put into these prospects. More recently, phils prospects have done well, but in the past, anyone remember Pat Combs, Jeff Jackson, Tyler Green, Ron Jones, etc, etc….I know this is a different era, but the lee trade doesn’t make sense!
Mazinman Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 10:32 am
I agree with Jeff. Lee has not been reported as taking a physical yet as far as I know. Are the Mariners going to take him with blind faith or are discusions still being held? I really hope Amaro can swoop in and make an F into an A.
The Dipsy Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Nj –

There is no question that Halladay is an upgrade over Lee. He is quite possibly the best pitcher in baseball and a certified horse. When I think of him and how he pitches I think of Jim Palmer a little. The problem everyone is having is WHY we are trading Lee for these prospects right now. Where’s the fire? Personally, I thinks it sucks that you can’t have both Lee and Halladay. Its not my money but I’m sure the ownership has plenty of it. When we are all dead and buried what does it matter that a bunch of billionaires gave Ruben an extra 10m for this year to keep Cliff when our kids can live with a World Series. No guarantee I understand. But, lets get past that point the Phils are being excessively cheap.

There is the matter of prospects. I understand not wanting to gut the farm system. And I don’t think the prospects we’re getting are crap. But what is the harm in waiting a bit to see what teams come out of the woodwork when some pitcher goes down in spring training for a contending team and desparation sets in. Because it happens EVERY year. And then get better prospects from that team. Another option would be to let Lee AND Blanton (assuming the Phils lose control of him after ‘10) walk and take 3 but probably 4 first round picks???? We have the guys in our system to reload in the next two years (Gose, Brown, Galvis) if need be so we can afford to let players enter the minor league system in ‘11 as opposed to needing guys at AAA that can come in this year. Plus we get to draft better players.

That said, I love Halladay. But Ruben will one day understand there is no “great blueprint”. You do what you can when you can do it. Sometimes when something so profoundly awesome is right there for the taking you gotta take it and worry about other shit later. Keeping Lee is no better example of this notion. You have a team that can literally be the greatest this city has ever known in any sport. I think its worth whatever risk Ruben is having a problem coming to terms with.

The Dipsy

The Dipsy
The Dipsy Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Sorry about the double Dipsy.

The Dipsy
Don M Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 10:36 am
Lee had/has little to no trade value, because him and his agent had already said they wanted to test the Free Agent market and/or seek a C.C. Sabathia type deal

So we couldn’t have gotten Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain for Cliff Lee

we couldn’t have gotten Clay Bucholz for Cliff Lee … etc

We flipped him, managed to get some prospects back in return… Baseball is a business.. and thank god we have the Ownership group that we do.. They spend more than other teams, in bigger markets.. but they also spend wisely

someone said they wanted this franchise sold to COMCAST ??? Why so Ed Snider can get his hands on it, and overpay aging Free Agents?

…
I looked into the Michael Taylor for Brett Wallace deal.. and basically it wouldn’t have worked out for the Phillies to trade him straight-up, becuase WALLACE is seen as an above-average hitter.. and well below average defensive player

He plays 3b and 1b .. but is viewed by Toronto to be a 1b/DH
Bob in Bucks Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Totally missed the point on this – simply put you are wrong.

The Lee trade was about money AND prospects. Obviously Amaro was facing a hard cap on payroll. You can argue about this, you can dream about this but Amaro has a boss and the numbers were fixed.

So, he has to move payroll. He tried with Blanton but nobody bites. IF he waits, everyone will know he HAS to move Lee at which point the prospects offered will be even lower than what he has received. He cut the deal with Seattle before they knew about Halladay. Maybe they guessed but they could not be sure. If he tries and stop it now he will get even less.

I am not sure why everyone thinks the prospects are too light. We got 1.5 years potential for Lee for 4 “B” prospects. Now he is only good for 1 year and we get 3 “B” prospects. What makes everyone so sure that Lee is worth more when we have two transacitons within two months that says this is what he is worth?

Of course, you want more but I don’t think you understand how MLB currently values prospects. These are guys you can have for a few years at min salary. That is worth millions!

Ask Toronto how they did by waiting on Halliday? They got 3 prospects and had to fork over $6 million and only if we get Halliday for 4 years.

Amaro struck when he had to, because someone capped money available and because he knew, unlike most of you, that when everyone knows you are selling the price goes down.
Don M Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 10:48 am
It’s going to take probably 3 years to see the real outcome of this deal

In that time, there is a good chance we add our 3rd World Series trophy

…
Travis D’Arnaud has seen his numbers drop at each level the past two seasons:

Williamsport (NY-PENN LEAGUE): he hit .309, with a .371 On-Base% in 48 games in 2008

He then moved up to Lakewood (LOW CLASS A minors) to play the final 16 games in 2008.
He hit .297, with a .357 On-Base%

Last year, in a full season at Lakewood he hit .255, with a .319 On-Base% … he did manage to hit 13 HRs

and he’s only 20 years old, he’ll be 21 in February…

With another Cather, Sebastian Valle, in the farm system… the phillies could afford to move D’Arnaud.. and have plans to keep Carlos Ruiz for the next 3+ years
joedad Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 11:09 am
COMCAST? Don’t be stupid. How many championships have they won?

From Jayson Stark for you ungrateful basages: “Finally, this trade is a statement about how far the losingest franchise in professional sports has come. Nine years ago, Curt Schilling couldn’t wait to force his way out of this town. Now Philadelphia is a place where a Cy Young winner seems to burst through the door every 15 minutes. This makes three of them GM Ruben Amaro Jr. has acquired just in the last five months (Lee, Halladay and Pedro Martinez). Who’d have thunk it?”
Chuck Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 11:11 am
IF Aumont clearly has the stuff to be the future closer, then this deal will be totally worth it….whether or not Cliff Lee earns 5 more Cy Youngs or gets Seattle a WS…

We really DON’T know good or bad Kyle Drabek will be…personally, I would have loved to have seen him play here…..but he’s not…and that’s it….

We have Roy Halladay under our control for at least the next 4 years….at BELOW MARKET VALUE….

Seriously…..who on this blog can really complain about that….???….

And who can really complain about what Ruben has done so far this offseason to better the WHOLE team..??…

–UPGRADE at 3B…and 7th spot in the order
–UPGRADE at utility IF
–UPGRADE at PH/reserve OF
–UPGRADE at backup catcher
–and…..UPGRADE at #1 starting pitcher

Seriously…..are you guys really THAT upset at the way we sit right now???
Don M Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Cliff Lee and Pedro Feliz

or

Roy Halladay and Placido Polanco

… Thank you Ruben Amaro for making our team SO MUCH BETTER!!!
Don M Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 11:24 am
THere are way too many posts..

BY A SHOW OF HANDS…

Who does/doesn’t like this deal?

I don’t LOVE it the way I did with Cliff Lee (because we basically stole Lee from Cleveland).. but i do “really like” the deal because Halladay is a monster!
Geoff Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 11:26 am
If Aumont has the durability he could be converted to starter, beacuse a bunch of the MLBN people said he resembles Derek Lowe, but as a reliever he is dynamite when fully healthy.

Aumont’s hard hard sinker is the key to him being a starter, if he can handle the workload, that sinker and his nasty breaking pitches will carry him the rest of the way.

But you now what? Good for Seattle too though, they are going for it this year. I like their GM. Taylor was not going to play here because hes ready now, which is too soon for us. I love how Beane slipped in there and pried him away from Toronto. Thats such a Billy Beane move. He was definitely tapping the phonelines here or something.

I love it for us the MOST though, because we got ROY HALLADAY and locked him for 3 additional years MINIMUM.

Thats why they traded Drabek, because with Roy here they really dont need Drabek to come up this year or next year.

Maybe they will need someone to replace Blanton after this year, but Happ 3 of those 5 spots with the Doc, Hamels, and Happ are LOCKED DOWN for several years to come. They still need some kind of cheap 5th starter, which they may be able to afford. Otherwise, they have a few guys who MAY get a shot at the rotation this year or next year if a hole really opens up due to injuiry. Stutes (maybe), Kendrick (less maybe), Carpenter (less than maybe).

Im nto even opposed to running Moyer out there for the first 2 months of the season at this point because we have ROY HALLADAY. And for me, thats a big change.
Geoff Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 11:28 am
exactly Chuck. They have upgraded at EVERY position where they have made a change this offseason so far.

Yet everyone is complaining. Brown can come up in 2011 and replace someone if need be. But other than that this is a WIN NOW team.
j reed Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 11:38 am
good point jeff of NoVa.

now if it is true i can say this:
other than giving Moyer 3 yrs, RAJ has done an admirable job. To have done such a Jeckyll and Hyde move at this point means either
a) unbeknowst to anyone RAJ is bi-polar and decided he negotiates better sans meds.
b) this is just the phantom 5 ownership group showing it’s true colors. I gave them the benefit of the doubt for not restocking the BP with at least one middle reliever last year down the stretch to the post season. I thought, baby steps…that mid-season Lee deal might have disrupted their pacemakers a bit….but 9 mil for a year for Lee is a no brainer if you already got ‘em esp. when the Sox aquired Lackey. Any owner…wait let me rephrase that 5 seriously rich owners, who cares about winning would have bit the bullet. Don’t you think other GM’s caught up to the fact that the Phillies ownership hasn’t changed….when you have a chance to win 2 consecutive WS, become part of baseball history along with the Big Red Machine, but hamstring your GM from improving your MASH unit of a BP…. I’m not saying that we lost because of the BP per se, in fact until the WS it performed well beyond it’s expectations but to put a lame ass mid season cap because you have to stay on budget….a couple extra million leveraged against what could be a huge windfall…little risk for alot of reward. Only the phantom five would pull such crap. Don’t be fooled by the recent pay roll increases and assumed the phantom 5 has changed. They are still operating with the same midset and treating the team like a static commodity which can only be done, ironically by the likes of the Yanks and Sox. That is they are only paying more for what they know works which is fine assuming you can replenish the labor without a loss in productivity. Can we? Don’t really know esp. when no one gets to see the books. in article about this issue in the daily post, Paul Hagen writes,
“The suspicion will always be that the Phillies could afford to push the payroll even higher. Maybe they can. Without access to the books, none of us will ever really know for sure.”
Aside from this quote the article essentially chastized fans for not understanding baseball economics. Maybe this was true before the internet and fanatsy baseball. This quote however was interesting and made his critisms of the fan base look more like a way to hide his real disdain for the phantom 5. Maybe not…As i’ve only been back for 2 years and don’t read alot of Daily News to know what gives with this reporter. Bottom line is other GMs can read between the lines and know you don’t mirco manage with a team as capable as this one unless you’ve got orders from your out of touch, paranoid ownership.
j reed Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Still happy. Love my Halladay X-mas present. Last rant applies to Lee deal.
NJ Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Do some of you really think the FO didnt look at whether it was possible to Keep Cliff Lee this and traded Lee purely to save $2m they just couldn’t muster up after trading Joe Blanton? Or that somehow this a conspiracy or RAJ just dropping the ball?

Has the last 5 years of work by the Gillick/Amaro front office left you with so little faith the team their fielding isn’t going to go as far as it possibly can? Have the NY Yankees not taught you you can’t be blood thirsty fans EXPECTING to win a championship and adding star after star just sees the some of your other guys drop off and leave you pretty much where you would have been in the first place give or take… Did all those big buck players beat the Phillies this year or was it mostly some of the ‘other’ guys or the ones who’d be forgotten about like Hideki Matsui that really won them the series?

Do you really think Ruben didn’t go upstairs and ask for the extra money to keep Lee. There’s a mountain of things going on in the background we don’t know about and talking about one deal in such plain terms as to think there aren’t is just naive.

Those of you who without a shadow of a doubt think we could have kept Lee for this year if your not happy go hold a protest outside CBP or to an extent get on board!

Some of you are just sounding like Pirates fans, you might enjoy being a fan of theirs where you can bitch and moan at the front office who haven’t earned some trust.
Jeff of Nova Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 11:55 am
I like the Halladay move, good for now and the next 3 years.

The Lee deal if complete at its current standing, I hate it. Not because we need Lee but those 3 prospects vs a #1 draft pick and supplemental pick is not too far from even.

I do not believe in the salary dump crap cause of Blanton’s salary.

This was definitely to fill the farm and I am not sure they replenished it with enough quality for what they give up.

And of course I have to deal with it whether I like it or not cause I am a die hard Phillies fan
Don M Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
FOX SPORTS said that Billy Beane has been in on Michael Taylor

ever since the Phillies called about trading for Matt Holliday last year, because they didn’t know if Raul Ibanez would be able to come back strong after his injury!!

today was the first I had heard that
bob Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Some of you are going to completely forget about this deal after Halladay mows down the side in the opener in April.

Unbelieveable the flip-flop since July.
NJ Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Again remember with the compensation it not a guarantee of a 1st round pick plus the supplementary pick. The Jays were expecting 1st rounded compensation for Burnett before the Yanks went on a spending spree making it a 3rd AND this year their expected 1st rounder for Scutaro will apparently be at best a 2nd after the BoSox signed Lackey.

What we got for Lee wasn’t a great deal but it wasn’t a terrible deal when you look at what a fair amount of ’stars’ have been traded for prior to or inside their final year.

I’d much rather see the front office take a teams two best pitching prospects, a promising outfield than haggle with limited suitors trying not to shoot themselves in the foot and come up empty? Were we really expecting Lee to get a Kershaw from a team like the Dodgers or the Angels top pitching prospect when they weren’t willing to trade them for Halladay?
Manny Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
I love having Halladay on our team now… but I HATE this deal because we didn’t get enough prospects for Cliff Lee.
psujoe Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
I just find it hard to believe that a package of Mariners or Angels prospects + Taylor couldn’t get the deal done. Something like Saunders, Reckling and Taylor.
psujoe Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
I guess I whoudl ask is Drabek and D’arnaud better than Aumont, Ramirez and Gillies?
Manny Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
WAYYYYY better…
Chuck Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Again…..

IF Aumont has the tools to be a good closer in the future…as some are suggesting….and may be possible…..THEN…..I really don’t care how good Cliff Lee is for Seattle (or another team) in the coming years…

These guys we got from the Mariners may or may not be good…just like Michael Taylor, Kyle Drabek, and the others we gave up in July may or may not be good….WE JUST WON’T KNOW FOR SOME TIME!!

BUT…for now the Phillies are a BETTER team than they were the day they lost the World Series to the Yankees..

____

Bottom line for me….I don’t love or hate the deal…..BUT I LOVE WHERE WE SIT RIGHT NOW!!
psujoe Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Thought so Manny, just wanted to ask people than know baseball better.
Georgie Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
manny, I know. I feel like I’m being the bratty little kid who didn’t get what she wanted for Christmas, I should be jumping for joy that we’ve landed Doc, but instead I’m whining about losing Lee. Yes, I’ve read everyone’s opinion, reasons why we can’t have both, reasons why we CAN and SHOULD have both. It just would have been so sweet to have a rotation with Halladay and Lee, SWEEEEET, I tell ya!
TODDFROMFAIRMOUNT Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
The bottom line is the team didn’t want to pay the 9 mil for Lee and push the payroll over the final number they have in mind. They are and always have been very conservative in with their payroll. The yankees, mets, red sox and now the angels will always pay more for their team payroll every year. Until we get our own Phillies tv network like the the new york teams and sox have we will not compete on their level every decade. That is another reason they needed to pay Lee this year. When we get a tv network the other teams will already have another way to generate revenue just like they were ahead of everyone else with their networks. It sucks, but thats our ownership. It kills me that they are still in bed with that evil company comcast.
j reed Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
georgie – we can and should have both. It is not Amaro’s fault or the FO. This 5 stinkin rich owners that are too dumb to realize that they have a nice precious metals mine on top of a huge untapped oil reserve.
George Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Bob in Bucks makes a lot of great arguments. It’s quite likely the Phils could have gotten less if they’d waited too long.

My problem with this whole thing is not so much the prospects involved. I mostly wonder this: If the Phils have a payroll limit of $140 million, and They’re really only paying Halladay what they would have paid Lee (nearly all the rest will be covered by Toronto) what happens next year, when they may have to meet that same $140 million (I’ll say $150 because of inflation) payroll but have to pay Halladay $20 million or more? Someone else will have to go, and other teams will know it. The Phils will get a really lousy return for Blanton, Werth, or whoever they deem replaceable. Moyer will be off the books, of course, but that’s not going to get them to their salary cap. This team will look like Swiss cheese before we know it–an ace without the other cards.
Cutter Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
I completely agree.
bob Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Apparently someone in this trade failed their physical…….what does this mean going forward??
mikemike Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
FOR Y DON COMCAST HAS NO SAY WITH THE FLYERS OR SIXERS,ed snider runs them comcast does it for the rights to those two teams, keeps them on there system, thats why owening the phillies would be great without ed invovled. Amaro and the scouts and gillick still would be there. snider spends money just has made stupid choices in gm. Do y think if there was a nine million dollar over budject deal that could get y a championship the brian roberts wouldn say no or even stupid ed would. how much have they made in the last two years. The phillies owners really showed there true colors on these one a chance to go back to the series with three aces, and worst case is we get two first round choice for lee a win win for the origaztion. And another thing if y follow the minors we have no infield prospects beside galvis, why not get a future third basemen or shortstop in the deal. why another fast dont know if he will hit outfielder .
Jeff of Nova Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Drabek has the ability of being a great starter end of this year!
mikemike Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
failed physical bet its aumont and amaro is trying to weasel out of deal.
psujoe Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
2012 is more problematic than 2011. Moyer, Blanton, Victorino is enough to more than compensate for Halladay. Unless Romero bounces back strong he won’t get renewed for 4.5 either. We will need to replace Blanton though and no more Drabek. Brown and one of the CFs better be ready by 2012 because we’re going to need some cheap OFs to retain Hamels and or Howard.
Adam G Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Maybe Cliff Lee is staying….. most likely Aumont who failed.

Then dump Blanton and keep Lee. Blanton is a FA after this year. Why not get a draft pick for him now.
NJ Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
BECAUSE IF IT WERE POSSIBLE TO KEEP CLIFF LEE THIS YEAR THE PHILLIES WOULD!?

If we can work it out you can be damned sure at least ’someone’ if not everyone in the front office has worked out there is no way they can keep Lee without massively depleting the farm…

This is more obvious than tits on a stripper!
bfo_33 Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Whoops, is this Red Sox Nation? The fans who, even though they won 2 world series in the past 5 years after an 86 year draught, think the GM and owners are a bunch of idiots? I think Ruben deserves the benefit of the doubt here. In his tenure, he made one questionable deal – Moyer. The rest have been at least solid, if not spectacular.

The Halladay deal was a masterpiece (with a lot of help from Roy, who really put the Jays in a bad position) . It would have been nice to keep Lee and go for it for one year, but you can’t spend what you don’t have. The Phils don’t have the revenue from a network like the Sox and Yanks, they have to be a little cost conscious. As Don M said, they had one movable salary – Lee, and got some decent prospects. Did we get market value? Come back in three years. All I know if for the first time in my life, we’re going into a new season as back to back NL champs, and we got better.
psujoe Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Do we know for sure Drabek, D’Araud and Taylor passed their physical. If yes, then it was a Mariners prospect. if so that deal is off, but the Jays deal is still done?

Correct?
Chuck Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
The article says that Aumont PASSED…right??…
Don M Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Aumont pass his physical according to reports on mlbtraderumors..

Its gotta be one of the Mariners guys that failed right?? If they are saying that regardless of that deal, the phillies are still on track with Halladay
Chuck Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Anybody having fun yet?? Jeez!!!!
NJ Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Can you imagine if its Drabek that failed…?
Mazinman Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
I’m thinking it might be Drabek. If its a Mariners guy it would not stop the Phils-Jays trade. However if its a Phillies guy it would stop both trades. I doubt its Taylor cause he has been traded already. I doubt the catcher would hold things u/p. Has to be Drabek.
j reed Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
taylor suffered the sportsman hernia towards the end of the year. Don’t know if he had it surgically repaired or not. If the latter then it’s a bitch to recover from easily since just everyday movement like walking can irrate it, not necessarily re-injure it but impede the healing process
j reed Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
whoops didn’t see Mazinman’s post…well there goes my theory on taylor. good. one down and two more to clear.
j reed Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
or does brown go in his place….if drabek fails.
j reed Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
man if its drabek someone on our end better be held accountable….I mean i hope they would have doubled checked that out to avoid this crap.
Mazinman Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
I’m guessing Brown would change the entire trade. Phils won’t send Brown and Taylor. I hope that drabek has some minor thing and the Jays take Aumont instead. That would make me very happy.

Never thought I would root for drabek to be hurt…
iSportacus » Blog Archive » Halladay In; Lee Out; What They’re Saying Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
[...] Philliesnation says that this was about prospects, not about money. But if Amaro received an A+ on the Halladay trade, he gets an F- on the Cliff Lee deal.Yes, an F-. If a score of 50 nets you an F on an exam, this was a 12…I spent most of Monday night believing the Lee deal wouldn’t go through, if for no other reason than it was a ridiculous trade from the Phillies standpoint. Dave Cameron of USS Mariner also spent most of Monday in disbelief, claiming that the “package is just so light as to not be realistic.” [...]
NJ Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
or we send Happ which was discussed…
Chuck Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
can’t send Happ….subtract 2 pitchers off the major-league roster….and add one….not gonna happen..
joedad Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
You can’t look at this as 2 seperate deals. If anyone thinks this team is “cheap”, consider that the Yankees were the only team to spend more than $140M last year. $9 million is 7% over budget. If it isn’t much, go ahead and try to spend 7% over your personal or business budget and see how that works out for you
Chuck Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
That’s right, joedad…being in business for myself…especially in these economic times….I totally get that…it’s hard…
NEPA Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
I hate the Lee part of the deal because…….
We will never know if he would have given us a discounted deal either now or at the end of 2010.He made the free agent and CC quotes when he was playing for the Indians.

Dont tell me that with filling up CB Park every night we cant afford it.

It sucks because we may have had a chance at the greatest Phils rotation ever this year and beyond.
All for 3 lousy minor leaguers.
NJ Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
we don’t really know anything about these Seattle prospects, none of us have been following them for more than 3 days.

The Phils were only ever going to be able to sign Halladay OR Lee to a multi-year deal and irrelevant of what the numbers actually are would you rather have Halladay or Lee… Roy Halladay wins on that one.
NJ Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
ITS DONE! GO PHILS! GO DOC! Hopefully we’ll have reason to start loving our new prospects…
Chuck Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
I don’t know about all of you…but….I’m getting pretty sick and tired of reading stuff about these prospects being “lousy”….when we really don’t know how they’re actually going to turn out….

Do any of you actually think that Ruben would make a trade….KNOWING he was going to get sh!t in return….

Seriously…think about that…..Have a little faith…
David Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Aumont is not the Mariners best pitching prospect, Morrow is. The sad thing is that these prospects from SEA will not be given the benefit of the doubt if they struggle bc of who they were traded for. Philly is a tough town when you an MVP ss, how is it going to be if your a struggling relief pitcher who was acquired for Lee?
j reed Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Rueben did a stellar job considering the ownership is what determined our options. In a no cap sport like baseball, given players are the only commodity and you have the a high demand low supply proven commodity that most teams want and /or need you don’t impose a strict cap on yourself and let it be know to every one in play. That just like standing on the tree branch your trimming. Furthermore, why not have gotten at least one reliever out of this. It’s not Amaro’s fault it’s just the same mentality from the ownership. Yes they spent more money, but only relative to what they made. No brainer. And keep in mind when your already rich any loss split five ways doesn’t hurt to much and any profit is icing on the cake. It’s a win win for them. Owning a sports team is more often than not a side job for rich people…not always but our owners were seriously rich from the get go.
Also isn’t that the point….we haven’t heard anything about these prospects (except Morrow) and yet ours were household names (to baseball peeps) for a short while. I’m not all prospect ga ga in so far as talent is concerned by they are a commodity valued by teams. These are not good owners and are too dumb to realize that economists consider Philadelphia a big market town for sports.
Brian Says:
December 16th, 2009 at 10:47 pm
I would love to have Lee and Halladay, but I did a little research and the whole dual-ace thing doesn’t always work out so hot. Check it out. http://thepeoplesphilliesblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/are-two-aces-really-better-than-one.html
Roy Halladay to Philly: A Trade Breakdown Says:
December 19th, 2009 at 12:56 am
[...] Corey Seidman of Phillies Nation gives Phillies GM Ruben Amaro an A+ on the Halladay trade and an F- on the Lee trade [...]
Tory Schippers Says:
March 27th, 2010 at 11:27 am
I have had difficulties accessing this blogpost using my Iphone, whats the cause?
Videochat Says:
June 4th, 2010 at 5:18 am
I just opted into for your RSS feed. Really cool website keep up the good writing.

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