Phillies Nation

136 Responses to “Odds and Ends: Moyer, Young Pitching, Giants”

1. Ed R. Says:
   January 7th, 2010 at 11:18 am

   Thinking outside the box.

   I like it.

2. Havoc Says:
   January 7th, 2010 at 11:24 am

   Interesting hypothetical, but I’d heard the giants don’t want to pay Damon’s asking price which is probably less than the contract Raul’s getting. It might be possible to find a trade partner interested in Ibanez, but i’m not sure it’s the Giants. Also we’d have to be getting alot back to give up a guy who hit 30 homers for us. I’d be more inclined to try and move Ibanez in the offseason next year, rather than take the offensive drop off between him and Francisco.

3. Pat Gallen Says:
   January 7th, 2010 at 11:32 am

   Havoc, your probably right in that the Giants dont want to spend. But they can afford it. I think Ibanez would certainly play better in that park than Damon would because no way is Damon going to hit 25 homers to right field.

   Ibanez is quicker in the field with a better arm. Maybe if the Phillies ate $2-3 million per season.

4. Chase Says:
   January 7th, 2010 at 11:35 am

   Raul Ibanez is one of the best hitting outfielders in the national league. Due to an injury his 2nd half numbers dropped off, but he is a MUST for the 2010 team. Ben Francisco is a BENCH player. C’mon you seriously should not write another post for awhile. Take a break and get some sleep.

5. Justin Says:
   January 7th, 2010 at 11:36 am

   There’s no way the Giants would want Ibanez simply because they’re an old team as it is. The only position of youth on the team is their pitching staff. That team needs to get younger I just don’t think the Giants would take that trade unless it was purely a salary dump, because I don’t see them giving up any top notch pitching prospects for 37-38 yr old Raul Ibanez. I like Ibanez but I don’t think the Giants would want to age their outfield any more than it is.

6. Justin Says:
   January 7th, 2010 at 11:36 am

   Also I think if the Phils extend Werth and Victorino Werth would move to left and you put Brown in Right because that’s the position he’s played throughout the minors.

7. Pat Gallen Says:
   January 7th, 2010 at 11:38 am

   Again, hypothetical. I agree Ibanez suffered because of injuries last season, but if a trade like this helped them keep Werth and Victorino, would you do it?

   Maybe Ibanez for Zito swap? …

   Joking!

8. Havoc Says:
   January 7th, 2010 at 11:39 am

   I think you’re right Pat that might be enough to get a deal done, and no question he’d play better than Damon. Still think it’s a deal I’d look more at next offseason, that’s part because I think he’ll really help the team and part because I already dropped a load of cash on my Ibanez jersey last year. Should be alot of interested parties next offseason, also Ibanez would have a greater value in the american league where teams would have the option of putting him on DH if needed.

9. Dudley Monk Says:
   January 7th, 2010 at 11:48 am

   The hypothetical trade sounds crazy, but I like the idea. Lots of ideas pop up around this one.

10. Evan Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 11:56 am

    How many times do I have to say his name isn’t spelled Jaime. Jaime is James in Spanish.

11. Don M Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 11:58 am

    Don’t we have enough back-end pitching right now?

    Romero, Baez, Madson, Lidge .. . I guess you can never have too much

    but I wouldn’t sacrifice an everyday player in Ibanez.. to take the downgrade to Francisco and another pitcher for the bullpen (plus prospects)

    If we trade anyone.. we need a starting pitcher in return.
    I can’t see us moving Ibanez at anytime soon, perhaps at the deadline this year, but more realistically, the deadline next year to an AL team in need of a DH

12. Don M Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 12:04 pm

    Hypothetically.. we should trade them Kendrick and Savery .. for Matt Cain

    a two for one deal, how could they pass that up ???

13. SDO Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    Let’s hope we don’t have to rely on ibanez to carry the team for the first 4 months of the season like we did last year!

14. bfo_33 Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    I like Ibanez a lot, but could live with trading him if we didn’t have to eat any of his contract, and got a strong infield prospect and a middle reliever in the deal. I don’t think it will happen. The one guy on the team who has trade value is Victorino (youngish, cheap for what he brings, 2 more years control, can play any outfield position well, great speed, which the Giants lack, would play very well in that park). Put Werth into center, Francisco/Dobbs in right. It would be a solid, but not spectacular outfield, and a minor decrease in offensive output (assuming Ibanez is somewhere between the first and second half of last year). Even for a good package of prospects, would also have to have Werth locked up for another 3 years before proceeding.
    My guess is the Phils aren’t going to do any more dramatic trades, will make do with Kendrick (who will only have to pitch twice in April anyway), see who else is on the scrap heap (one of the starter/bullpen guys form the previous list, maybe Hendrickson).

15. mikemike Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    You are joking Don? I hope you are not serious? The giants would laugh at that suggestion. Savery is nothing and Kendrick is a 5 th starter or bullpen guy maybe at best. Savery can’t pitch he will never make the majors, He was typically at 88 or 89 last year with little movement bad secondary stuff and walks a lot of hitters,

16. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 12:20 pm

    How about Ibanez for DeRosa straight up?

    The Dipsy

17. Pat Gallen Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    Isn’t anyone the least bit upset about Condrey not coming back? That, to me, is a bad move with how little is out there and the state of the Phillies pen at this point.

18. Adam C Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    I am pretty upset about condrey…..he really helped us in a lot of clutch innings….

19. Aaron Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 12:50 pm

    Lol. Ibanez is slightly overpaid. When you are making 30k-70k, pretty much you can say any athlete is overpaid.

    Prospects are just what they are called, prospects. There is no way to know that Dominic Brown is going to be the next awesome Phillies player. I wouldnt trade anyone away or keep any position warm for a prospect. Have him come up like everyone else and earn his position.

    I just think if you were going to trade Raulllllllllllll you would try to get more value for him than a couple mid-tier prospects or whatever. I definitely think a good nap is in order before making up hypothetical situations and ideas like this

20. beta sigma shag Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    I am not surprised by Condrey not coming back, I like the guy in the pen, but I reallly think they like Durbin better for some reason. And Condrey is a big injury risk. I think Moyer should retire, wouldn’t that take him off the books this year, then give him some kind of ass pitching coach. I really think you can bring up some of the arms from the farm to fill out the pen early on, see if any of them can do the job, it would be cheap and fill the rolls.
    I also think Kendrick should more last year and would be a fine #5 guy. If Hamels comes back better then last year I could live with
    Halladay
    Hamels
    Blanton
    Happ
    Kendrick
    it would be top to bottom on of the better staffs in the NL.

21. Jeff Dowder Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 12:57 pm

    I don’t understand a few of Amaro’s moves, and a lot of them are with his handling of the bullpen. We have no clue as to what Lidge & Romero will bring to the table in 2010 no matter how postive RAJ tries to be about them. He obviously didn’t want Myers around, and his dismissal of Condrey was even more perplexing. Park was rock solid once he moved to the bullpen last season, and I still don’t see anyone projected to replace him that I have any confidence in.

    I’d definitely move Ibanez in the right deal. That was a high risk signing from the start and there’s no concrete proof that his second half decline was due to injury (and even if it was older players tend to get hurt more and take longer to recover).

22. bfo_33 Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    I don’t understand why we left Condrey go – he signed for next to nothing, better than any of the scrubs out there.
    Back to Ibanez, even if it was to lock up Werth and/or Victorino, still wouldn’t make much sense to me to go on a salary dump, unless the prospects were great. He may be shopped at the trade deadline to an AL team in need of bat/outfielder/dh (I can’t see the Angels outfield staying healthy, but they rarely pull the trigger on trades).
    The last thing on Ruben’s wish list is a lefty starter. If the first 4 spots were a lock, I don’t think the organization would be all that worried about a 5th starter. Leads me to believe there is some concern around Happ.
    Subtlety isn’t my strong point, but I’m pretty sure Don M is kidding.

23. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 1:07 pm

    Raul is a character guy. NO ONE will give us anything for him without us taking back a big portion of his salary. In fact, I think they way to go might be like in the NBA. Trade Raul for a Raul clone who’s contract is up after this year. Ah, yes. The value of the “expiring contract”. We did not need Raul Ibanez in the first place. I know he had a great first half last year and god bless him but this team is built around Rollins / Utley/Howard/Shane/Werth. The rest of the guys need just be barely above fair and should be paid that way. Francisco can go in Raul’s spot no problem. Why spend all the at money for a luxury you don’t really need? And Raul is a luxury we don’t need. I would rather have DeRosa out there.

    The Dipsy

24. joedad Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 1:20 pm

    That would be a bad move. The offense would suffer next year without Ibanez and no team would take his contract for 2 years. Also you can’t trade one of your better players to a team in your own league and risk improving them enough to overtake you.

    Condrey was a middle relief guy so I can’t be too upset about losing him. He did seem to be a cool guy from his appearances in The Pen.

25. Chsseiam Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 1:36 pm

    Clay was the modern day vulture. He had a nice 1st half but after the double johan smacked off him, he tanked. A bullpen revamp was due. Is bastardo the guy? I think he can be.

26. Manny Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 1:43 pm

    People forget that RAUL was the league’s MVP for half the season….

    He is way, way better than Frisco, and pretty much every other outfielder in the league.

27. Don M Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    Condrey was hurt last season.. and I think has spent time onthe DL every year he’s been with the Phillies?

    I liked him, thought he was better than we gave him credit for.. but a change of scenery for Middle Relievers is common .. Baez has experience as a closer, and that makes him more valuable to the phillies I guess

    ….
    Clearly I was joking about any trade value Kendrick or Savery might have

    …
    Trading Ibanez would make the team worse.. in the offseason NEXT year, maybe.. but until we have a replacement (which Francisco is not). No trade talks about any of our three ALL STAR OF’s .. please, and thank you

28. Chuck Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 2:10 pm

    Dipsy…

    Are you joking??…Ibanez for DeRosa…straight up??

    _____

    I’m more upset about Eyre not coming back than Condrey….and I liked Condrey…but…and somebody already mentioned this…but he’s a big injusry risk….so is Eyre, I guess….just seems like Condrey was on the DL A LOT last year.

    _____

    Pat…

    Not trying to be a pain in the ass….but what’s the status of the “Last 4 Comments”??

29. Havoc Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 2:12 pm

    It’s hard to give RAJ big points on his handling of the bullpen so far this offseason, but the way relievers play you might as well flip a coin on whether they’ll be good or not. The one guy out there I wanted that the Phils wanted also was Brandon lyon since he’s been gone you have to just take what you can get. Chan ho is convinced he’s going to start somewhere, we’ll see what happens if those offers don’t work out quite the way he thinks. Would still like to have Eyre back, but I’d imagine if the Phils aren’t offering him a deal it’s because there are serious concerns about recovering from this surgery. On the whole we’ll have to see what the bullpen can give us before we panic too much about it.

    I’m comfortable (Barring injuries) with our lineup, bench, and the rotation 1-5 even if it’s Moyer/Kendrick at the bottom. If the pen ends up being our only issue through the season it’s a simpler and easier problem to fix than the rotation issues that RAJ fixed for us last year.

30. psujoe Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 2:12 pm

    What’s Condry getting paid?

    I wouldn’t trade Raul this year. Trade him next year when Brown and Gillies are closer.

31. NJ Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    I liked Condrey sine he proved to be one of those ‘Minos’ you could route for but the Phillies pen is going to have to go through a transition at some point and I hope here’s where it begins.

    I think we sometimes misread bullpen overvaluing the ERA’s so much as who’s effective, BB/9 and where their giving up their runs. Am really looking forward to seeing a couple of the prospects get broken in even if the ERA’s are underwhelming.

32. Don M Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 2:36 pm

    Bastardo out of the pen could work.. he reminds me so much of JC Romero..

    Scott Mathieson is still on the radar, but health has been an issue.. and really LIVE ARM pitcher, he could be our closer of the future

    but lets make it through Spring Training first, see who’s effective and who be healthy, dawgs

33. bfo_33 Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    Condrey got a 1 yr deal. I thought I saw just under $1M, but can’t find it now.

34. Pat Gallen Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 2:46 pm

    Chuck: The 4 comments section was somehow related to our servers going down, according to Brian. We are working on a way to get that back up. Not sure how they’re related, but thats the report I got. Sorry for the delay Chuck. I too like that part of the site. Makes it easier to see whats going on.

35. NJ Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    The fact Matheison didn’t have any health trouble down the stretch after his return last year suggests good things, to me the question is more a case of whether or not his game is back to being at a major league level.

    I might be in a minority here but I’m so excited about guys like Bastardo, Savery, Naylor and several others of these kids we have. As much as I like seeing a guy like Durbin or Park work out I’m sure at least a couple of prospects can either be broken-in for the rotation or be a fixture in the pen and really help give this escalating payroll some flexibility.

36. Chuck Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 3:06 pm

    Thanks, Pat.

37. Aaron Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 3:21 pm

    Dipsy – thank gosh you aren’t a gm lol.

38. psujoe Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    Condry at 1 year 1 mil is a no brainer, IMO. I too look forward to seeing Bastardo and Mathiason out of the bull Pen. The Phils need them to step up.

39. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 3:37 pm

    The point is is that by trading Ibanez for DeRosa, you could save about 6m bucks that you put elsewhere on your team and still have a good player in LF. That 6m would get you Ben Sheets.

    The Dipsy

40. Chuck Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 3:38 pm

    Somebody said that Bastardo reminded them of JC Romero…that’s what I thought last year when I first saw him….if HE stepped up that would be HUGE for this pen.

41. George Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 3:40 pm

    Trading Ibanez is a ridiculous idea. His contract is large and he’s growing old. He’ll do fine, though, I think, for the two years the Phils still have him for; better than any prospects a trade might return, and better by far than Francisco.

    Condrey was decent while he was here, but I can see a need for an upgrade, not only due to health concerns, but because he’s never been a closer, which Baez has. Another reason to not sign him was that it’s time to try some of the farmhands in the ‘pen. People like Bastardo, Mathieson, and Escalona aren’t going to do the team any good at AAA now that they’ve had MLB experience. They’re also cheaper options.

    I wish people would get off the Park issue. The man not only wants to start, but wanted too much money no matter what his role.

    Moyer will not start the season on time, which right now leaves Kendrick, which might not be the end of the world. Vogelsong could be looked at, too. But if spring brings issues with either, then I see the Phils signing another minor league/spring training invitation type. I doubt it will be anyone like the antique Smoltz, or the expensive Sheets, though. Amaro has indicated contact with Myers and Martinez, but he’ll likely wait a bit to see if their prices come down.

    Finally, I will address Evan: Many times I too have seen Moyer’s first name mistyped. I’ve also seen Werth listed as Wreth. These are simple mistakes of clumsy fingers, and probably not mistakes of stupidity or diliberate malice. And this time, I haven’t seen any reason on this particular post, or in the comments, to warrant your outburst. Pat Gallen certainly didn’t write “Jaime.”

42. Pat Gallen Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 3:43 pm

    I would love for Bastardo to step up and kick ass this year, and I think he can. If he can come out and equal, or come close to, what Condrey did for us last season, then thats great. I’m all for the youngsters getting a shot, because like others have said, the pen is a total crapshoot. A guy who makes $4 mil per year can do just the same as the guy making 400K.

43. Manny Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 3:43 pm

    Bastardo could/should be used as our situational lefty … especially since we’re probably not getting Eyre back

    Ibanez for DeRosa? You on crack!!!!?

44. Bill Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 3:43 pm

    Condrey pitched 13 or so innings after May in ‘09…he really wasn’t part of the 2009 team after the 2nd week of June anyway. Phillies have 3-4 minor league guys that can replicate Condrey’s role witht he chance Bastardo/Mathieson could morph into a Madson type reliever…and the phils put that $1 for Condrey in back pocket to help pay for midseason help where needed…..as far as Park, the phils would have far preferred Park over Baez for similar money, but Park was not interested in that deal.

45. Leonard Skinnard Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    Interesting hypothetical. Although, SF they won’t trade prospects for Ibanez at 100 yrs old when they can have Johnny Damon at 100 yrs old. Let’s face it, I think we have know what we’re going to Spring training with. Hopefully some guys step up and if not, hopefully Amaro acts quickly to correct the situation.

    LS

46. The Second John Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    That is not bad thinking, but I don’t think that will work. Raul has a huge contract, and is aging. I am not sure that we would get a top prospect, unless we gave them one of our prospects. Also, Ben Fransico is a downgrade.

    I don’t think that Condrey leaving is a big deal. Condrey had a really good first half, then faded down the stretch after he came back from the injury. I think that one of the young guys can take care of his role. Besides, they need to save some money for the trade deadline.

47. Pat Gallen Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    Hey George, thanks! Was a simple typo obviously. Cant catch them all.

48. Bill Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 3:53 pm

    Eyre may end up taking the minor league deal before all is said and done…Much like Condrey, 1/2 of Eyre’s appearances in ‘09 were in April/May plus I believe he just had surgery too. Phils already have enough injuries in the pen, paying Condrey/Eyre $3-$4 million combined and eliminated adding another arm in Baez. through the dog days of the ‘09 season, condrey and eyre were both on the shelf and I suspect that is what Amaro is looking at…Baez came off major arm injury and breezed through ‘09 health wise. Amaro is making the bet Baez can stay healthy in ‘10 more so than the Condrey/Eyre combo….Phils are spending an awful lot of money on Lidge/Romero/Madson, really not a lot of wiggle room in adding salary to the pen. Ideally Amaro would have taken Park over Condrey/Eyre combo, that didn’t happen and the market overpaid for most of the other guys Amaro would have preferred..Phils only had $2-$3 million slotted for another bullpen arm. I’d have loved to have seen Gonzalez, but he ended up getting a pretty contract elsewhere. You just can’t spend unlimited money on the bullpen.

49. The Second John Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    Eyre retired.

    “Eyre, 37, will not be playing baseball this summer. He said in a telephone interview Thursday with MLB.com that he is retiring after 13 seasons in the Majors. He finished his career 28-30 with a 4.23 ERA in 617 appearances with the Chicago White Sox, Toronto Blue Jays, San Francisco Giants, Chicago Cubs and Phillies.”

    Phillies.com

50. Chase Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 4:14 pm

    I don’t like Escalona…Bastardo is fine, if he’s healthy. He was pretty banged up last year after those few starts.

51. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 4:17 pm

    Yes. I would take DeRosa @6m over Ibanez @ 11.5m. No question. Not straight all things being even. I would make that trade for the money. The Phillies have a “hard cap” ya know? The extra $$$ could get you Ben Sheets. How about Sheets and DeRosa for Ibanez because thats what it would amount to.

    The Dipsy

52. Manny Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 4:29 pm

    DeRosa is a superutility player, Sheets is a starter with too many health concerns at this point.

    Ibanez is a regular, ALL-STAR outfielder, who will play nearly every single game.

    It’s not even close, Dipsy…

53. Don M Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 4:31 pm

    And then Ben Sheets starts the season on the DL, and then goes out for the season my mid-June

    so know you have Mark DeRosa playing LF instead of Ibanez.. and Kendrick is still your #5 pitcher

54. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    Ummmm. Ibanez is not really an all star. he had a great first half. Sign Sheets to an incentive laden contract and you’re right in there. Thank you Don. Andre Dawson is NOT a Hall of Fame player. Never one squat. Played on shitty teams. One fabulous season thrown in the middle of a bunch of good ones. Nope. Whitey Herzog? Nope. The Hall is so watered down its ridiculous. If you ever went through the list of the hacks that are in you would laugh out loud at some of them. RE: Eyre. If he wanst to sit in a rocking chair and wittle until its time to go pick up his kids from soccer for the rest of his life, god bless em.

    The Dipsy

55. Ed R. Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 4:36 pm

    I don’t get letting Condrey go at all especially when it seems like our back up is unproven arms from the minors. So be it I guess.

56. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 4:36 pm

    Doesn’t have to be Sheets. But thats money laying there that you can use. At the trade deadline. You’re really gonna love it when Ruben says he can’t make a deal at the deadline cuz he has no money.

    The Dipsy

57. Chuck Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 4:36 pm

    Dipsy..You are NUTS!!

    Ibanez isn’t an All-Star??? You want DeRosa and Sheets….for Ibanez??

    YOU’RE NUTS!!

58. Giants IF/OF Mark DeRosa talks about signing with San Franciscio – SIRIUS|XM Radio | San Francisco Giants MLB Announcer Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 4:38 pm

    [...] Odds and Ends: Moyer, Young Pitching, Giants | Phillies Nation [...]

59. Don M Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 4:40 pm

    I’m gonna love it at the deadline when we’re in 1st place in the NL EAST

    and we’ve got Ibanez playing LF instead of DeRosa

60. Ed R. Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 5:10 pm

    Ibanez is not an All Star. He was an All Star last year but he is not an All Star.

61. mikemike Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 5:29 pm

    I would not sign sheets, for the money he is suppose to be asking for, 10 one year deal, he is always hurt no way. I really dont understand what they are thinking not bringing back condrey, he is a better option than kendrick or bastardo at this point. especially for a team contending for a world series.

62. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 5:29 pm

    Look. Its like this. The play that DeRosa will give you this year for 6m will be more valuable than the play Ibanez will give you for 11m or 11.5. When you have a salary cap you have to look at things this way. If we have a hard cap then the following is true: (DeRosa + 5.5m) > (Ibanez). This is because RAJ is working with a finite # of dollars, he has to allocate his resources most effectively.

    The Dipsy

63. Ed R. Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 5:31 pm

    Agreed Dipsy. What people aren’t seeing is that you are not saying DeRosa will give you better numbers than Ibanez, he won’t. But he will give you more for his pay check then Ibanez will for his.

64. Chuck Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 5:32 pm

    That makes no sense…”He was an All-Star last year but he is not an All Star.”

    Last time I checked…you make the All Star team…and you’re referred to as an All Star. I’m fairly certain that’s how that usually goes.

65. Chuck Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 5:37 pm

    So let’s say that Ibanez hits 25-30 hrs, bats .280-.290, knocks in something like 90 runs….in 140-145 games….and plays hard-nosed defense….as he always does…and is a major reason that we’re a contending playoff team..

    You’re saying you would rather have Mark De Rosa out there even if he’s making half what Ibanez does?

66. Don M Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 5:37 pm

    Well since the Giants are trading the guy they just signed anyway… and the Phillies don’t want to weaken their lineup

    this is a non issue

67. Ed R. Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 5:40 pm

    Kevin Millwood was an All Star in 1999. Would you consider him an All Star?

    Because if you do, you, Millwood and his mother might be the only ones that do.

68. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 5:48 pm

    No Chuck. What I am saying is that I would rather have DeRosa at the 20HR 80RBI .280 with better defense who will be a major reason why we are a playoff contender than Ibanez (did you really say “hard nosed defense) AND take the 5 mill and upgrade someplace we are weak. A starting pitcher, a stud back of the bullpen guy. You wouldn’t like Sheets a 1y 6.5m? If you do, that 5 mill thats available will be the difference in you getting him. Then how do you feel about it?

    The Dipsy

69. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 5:50 pm

    It is a non issue. But but there are other guys out there that could fall in the DeRosa category. I’m almost using DeRosa as the generic guy who plays like DeRosa. If that makes ANY sense.

    The Dipsy

70. Chuck Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    Just because someone is an All Star for only one year…doesn’t mean that he’s not an All Star..

    Maybe he’s not an All Star RIGHT NOW … but he has that credential.

    Besides…Ibanez was a All Star LAST year…so going into THIS year he has All Star status…he is considered a “reigning All Star”

    And I would be willing to bet that he has an All Star caliber year this year…even if he doesn’t make the All Star team.

71. Chuck Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 5:55 pm

    Not if Sheets is gonna be hurt a lot of the time…no I wouldn’t want him then.

    Yes I said “hard-nosed defense” I wouold classify Ibanez’ approach to the game as that. The guy made some diving catches and attempts last year that a lot of guys his age would have just put the brakes on.

72. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 5:58 pm

    The phrase you may be searching for is “perennial” all star. Ibanez is not that either. Tommy Greene – All Star, Tyler Green – All Star Wayne Twitchell – All Star, Glenn (Glennbo) Wilson – AllStar. The Phillies have a rich tradition this of sending their outstanding players to the midsummer classic.

    The Dipsy

73. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 6:01 pm

    Chuck – Give it up dude. Ibanez has the range of a four foot cast net. Sure, he tries, but he’s just not a good fielder. Stop. You would take Sheets for 1y 6.5. In the end, I’m not even sure it would take that much.

    The Dipsy

74. Chuck Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 6:17 pm

    Maybe you and I weren’t watching some of the same games then…cause I saw Ibanez get to some stuff that a lot of guys would have just given up on.

    It’s amazing to me…a year ago…a lot of people on here were suggesting that we give Pat Burrell $39 MM over 3 years…or something like that…to resign with the Phillies…

    We got Ibanez instead…for LESS money….and he soon made us all forget Pat the Bat.

    Now… a lot of you guys are ready to ship him out of here..

75. Chuck Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 6:23 pm

    I’s rather have a semi-effective but healthy Kyle Kendrick at $445,000…instead of an often injured Ben Sheets at 6.5MM…as my 5th starter.

76. The Second John Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 6:25 pm

    Come on Dipsy. Are you seriously saying that Mark Derosa + relief/starter is better than Raul Ibanez?
    Here are the stats:

    Mark Derosa
    BA: .250 HR: 23 RBI: 78 OBP: 319

    Raul Ibanez
    BA: .272 HR: 34 RBI: 93 OBP: 347

    Who would you rather have? There is a difference of ELEVEN homeruns between those two. There is a 22 POINT DIFFERENCE between their averages.

    As for Ben Sheets, he hasn’t pithced in about a year. Do you really want to give him the 12 million dollars he is asking for?

77. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 6:50 pm

    Second John. Lets use this for an analogy: Firstly, this would be my forecasy for these two guys for this years if DeRosa played LF in Philly:

    DeRosa 20 80 .280
    Ibanez 26 95 .290 (He’s gonna bat six against RH)

    Ibanez is better. Now lets assume Mike Gonzalez was not a type A free agent which he is and getting him was just a matter of money. Would you rather have DeRosa and Gonzalez or Ibanez? I ask this because that 5 mill you are saving will go towards Gonzalez’ contract, who you wouldn’t be able to affford otherwise if you had Ibanez. I will take DeRosa and Ibanez.

    The Dipsy

78. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 6:58 pm

    Ibanez goes hard after balls. So did Greg Luzinski. And Gorman Thomas. And Dave Kingman…… You get the picture.

    The balls he is busting ass to get too, diving for and such, most other LFers in the league make with a glide. Lets face it, Ibanez is just a very slow guy. Do I give him points for hustle? Sure.

    The Dipsy

79. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 6:58 pm

    Strike that. I would take DeRosa and Gonzalez.

    The Dipsy

80. Chuck Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 7:01 pm

    Hustle counts…Just ask Pete Rose.

81. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 7:03 pm

    Have you ever seen Ibanez take an extra base? Or dive headfirst into a base? Or crash into a wall?

    The Dipsy

82. beta sigma delta shag Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 7:15 pm

    Dipsy and others I really do not understand why you want to pay some one decent money to be mid inning reliever, Lidge is the Phillies CLOSER and they are paying him a lot of money to be that. 8th inning guy is Madson, JC, Durbin, Baez, are back end guys, and the rest of the holes should be simply filled with kids from the farm. Bastardo, for one. And there are a few others that could fill the roles cheaply and effectivly. And if they don’t then you can go out and look for some help. I do not see paying anyone 6.5 million not knowing if he is going to pitch more than 10 games a year.
    And you really going to compare Rual to the Bull, or Dave Kingman give me a break.
    I thought you had a break through with your post the other day, but now you are back to being ridiculus and not very bright. Raul may not be in the top5 defensivly in the league but for right fielders he is in the middle or just above. Man I thought you had seen some kind of light now you say stupid things like that

83. The Second John Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 7:17 pm

    Dipsy, Mike Gonzalez IS a type A free agent. You can’t just he someone is not a Type A free agent when they are. Besides do you think that Derosa’s average will jump 30 points just because he plays in CBP?

84. Chuck Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 7:27 pm

    I ‘ve seen him crash into the LF wall and make catches…and make diving catches and almost eating dirt and sod while doing it…not every day…but enough times where I said to myself or whoever I was with at the time..”No way Pat gets to that ball.”

85. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 7:37 pm

    Before last year, DeRosa batted between .285 and .295 in the previous three seasons. I feel comfortable with my prediction of .280. No. Raul is not as bad a fielder as any of those guys I mentioned. I did exaggerate to make a point. The point that hustle, while nice, doesn’t necessarily translate into good fielding and in Raul’s case it doesn’t. He is in the bottom half in the NL but he is not brutal. He will catch what he gets to. He’s not a good fielder but he’s not the worst. Second John – I’m using him as an example for money purposes. I just used his name cuz it was easy. Lets say “a guy like Mike Gonzalez”. How’s that? My global point is this: When your team is on a “hard cap”, you have to allocate your resources more wisely. And I think that Ruben could have used the 30whatever million more efficiently than by signing Raul. Think Joe Banner if that helps. Or think of a stock. Ibanez? Like him at 7m, hate him at 11m

    The Dipsy

86. Chuck Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 8:20 pm

    Interesting how you keep mentioning “hard cap”…as if you’re really embracing the concept….yet you had such a hard time with the Phillies going OVER BUDGET…just to keep Cliff Lee here for this season.

87. Chuck Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 8:21 pm

    sorry…what I MEANT to say was that you had no problem with the Phillies going over budget.

88. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 8:26 pm

    I am not embracing it. “Hard cap” is the NFL cap and “soft cap” is the NBA term. If you can’t go over a certain amount, people refer to it as a “hard cap”. I hate it but thats how they run the team now. Just trying to adapt is all.

    The Dipsy

89. Chuck Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 8:38 pm

    Here’s my problem with going over budget…IF you go over THIS year…and we’ll use the $9MM example that Cliff Lee would have cost…then that just open s the door to go over even MORE next year..2011…and more still in future years….

    The precedent is set.

    Next thing you know we look like the Yankees and Red Sox…and the average guy can’t afford to go to 8-12 games a year…sitting in decent seats.

    I’m glad the Phillies practice SOME fiscal restraint…and stick to some kind of budget…cause I want to be able to go to those 8-12 games a year…or even more…and be able to enjoy them knowing I didn’t have to mortgage my house to do it.

90. j reed Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 8:58 pm

    Crazy though, Raul played in Seattle which is basically AT+T Park North minus the wind. I guess a few years ago he was more nimble though I don’t know it that showed in his fielding stats. Lots of ground to cover in that field. Besides it’d be be cruel to send a guy from our hitter’s heavan to another ball park which is big enough that HRs hit there should be worth 1.5 runs. And only 1 yr. after being rescued from Seattle’s man-made grand canyon. And how could we trade him after seeing the “kid on Christmas morning” look his on face during the NLCS victory celebration. See I can be sentimental. Though if we could get a Gonzalez type of reliever in the deal it’d be hard to say no.

91. The Dipsy Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 9:03 pm

    I disagree that it would set a precedent. How often have the Phils been asked to go modestly over budget in order to keep their Cy Young award winning stud pitcher? Ohhhh…lets see. Once every hundred years? So your view is that the signing of Lee, that pitcher, would have set the snowball rolling down the hill, unable to be stopped, dooming the Phils and their fans to years of financial chaos? Chuck, in this regard, I think you’re a bit of an alarmist.

    The Dipsy

92. Just Crushed Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 10:44 pm

    We better do something…we are very short of pitching. Good thing Eyre retired…Amaro would be 100,000 over budget!

93. The Second John Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 10:53 pm

    Well, there is a chance that Derosa is starting to decline. Also according to Fangraphs UZR ratings, Raul Ibanez was the 4th best left fielder in the game with a score of 8.0.

94. Manny Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 10:59 pm

    Raul is a machine! Mark De Rosa is Eric Bruntlett’s hero.

    Enough said!

95. The Second John Says:
    January 7th, 2010 at 11:00 pm

    It’s interesting that Mark Derosa’s hit a career high in home runs last year, but he had an almost career low in BA. (he hit .239 and .243 in 04, and 05). Since 2006, his average is dropping, while his home run rate is going up. Maybe he is trying to hit home runs? If that is the case that kind of player is exactly what we don’t need.

96. Aaron Says:
    January 8th, 2010 at 1:24 am

    I think everyone appreciates you thinking outside the box on this article, but the pieces don’t fit. If the Phillies wanted Derosa they would have him. Better luck next time.

97. George Says:
    January 8th, 2010 at 10:17 am

    If Jason Bay, with his garbage fielding and so-so batting average, is worth $15 million per year, then Ibanez is an absolute bargain at $11 million.

    Also, if you go over budget one year, you don’t set a precedent. It just means you have LESS money for the following year, and can’t afford a different key player.

98. Don M Says:
    January 8th, 2010 at 10:56 am

    Lets not pretend like Jason Bay isn’t an All-Star player..

    Mark DeRosa sucks compared to Ibanez.. saving money is cool

    but a $5 M starter … is basically a Kyle Kendrick type anyway

    Ibanez isn’t going anywhere.. no need to play What-if, and argue with each other

99. PhxPhilly Says:
    January 8th, 2010 at 11:11 am

    The dollar value of players is always going to be skewed. At this point, the only really bad contract the Phillies have is Moyer. Lidge is unknown. That is not too bad for a top payroll team. Ibanez has limited value since decent FA OF’s are still available.

    I agree (and had mentioned before) with bfo_33 that Victorino would be the Phillies most useful trade piece. His value is about as high as it can get: All-Star, Gold Glove, Playoff Stud, Switch hitter with great speed and mild power. He is still relatively cheap and controlled for two more years. I absolutely would have preferred to trade him for prospects (say Gillies and Ramirez) to replenish the minors than Lee. I also think signing Victorino to a $10M/yr long term contract is too high and that’s what he should be getting in a couple years.

    For 2010, Werth and Francisco could play CF, though you would lose some range. Francisco/Dobbs/Mayberry/Gload would get their at bats in RF. Quinten Berry could be the emergency CF if someone goes on the DL. He can at least field and has some speed. He will not be much of hitter but would make a reasonable 5th OF. Assuming Polanco bats 2nd, then Francisco replaces Feliz in the seventh hole. Full season Francisco might be .250AVG, .310OBP, 15HR, 10SB which is not much worse than Feliz.

    The bigger issue would come next year as Werth becomes more critical to sign since he is now the CF and Brown might come up in RF. Otherwise Francisco is your everyday CF and there are no good FA CF’s for 2011.

100. Chuck Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 11:26 am

     I like Francisco….but….no way is he gonna be the everyday centerfielder…he’s a good 4th outfielder/platoon-type player….that, if he gets enough playing time, can be quite good…but that’s about it.

     ____

     Dipsy…

     Maybe or maybe a precedent is set…with going over budget… I happen to think it has that possibility…..but I don’t think that just because I raise this as an issue…that I’m an “alarmist”

     But …I’ve already been called an “apologist” for Ruben…and been accused…along with a few others….of working in the Phillies PR dept..so I guess it makes sense that I’m labeled again.

101. Don M Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 12:08 pm

     you don’t trade a Gold Glove CF making $3 M per season… and has also led your team in batting average the past two seasons

     The time will come when they might need to choose between Werth and Victorino.. and I believe they’ll choose Werth and possibly look to deal Victorino in the offseason next year

     But not now

     …
     Chuck you should know by now that if you approve of anything the Front Office does… people on here assume that you must work for the team

     I’ve been called Pat Gillick.. and Amaro’s lap dog plenty of times before

102. Chuck Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 12:32 pm

     Don..

     I actually think it’s kind of funny..if that’s what people want to think…and if they insist on blasting management…every chance they get…so be it..

     These same people will be singing the praises of Ruben, etc….when the Phillies are in first place most of the year..calling for him to be GM of the year or something.

     __

     I think choosing Werth makes the most sense…from the standpoint that he’s MORE valuable because of EVERYTHING he can do….as well as being a power threat…and he can play center field…effectively.

     I just hope the Phillies see it that way.

103. Don M Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 12:45 pm

     I think they will trade Vic at some point… just not anytime soon

     make sure Brown can play at the highest levels before you do anything stupid like getting rid of Victorino

104. The Dipsy Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 12:51 pm

     Chuck and Don M. – I think Ruben Amaro is great. I think Pat Gillick was great. I applaud the management for giving the GM’s some money to work with. I think the Phillies are one of the best organizations in baseball. But the difference between some fans and other fans is that when the Phils do misstep, some will call them on it, while others will point out and what a great FO we have and that we are ungrateful for criticizing. What should we say when Gillick pays Freddy Garcia 10m, who is coming off shoulder surgery, and doesn’t give him a physical and then he breaks down???? What should we say when the ownership won’t give Ruben the money to keep Lee for WS run? What should we say when RAJ gives Moyer (inexplicably) a second year? Nothing? I think NOT speaking up is being a bad fan. And this isn’t hindsight, either. When knew these were bad moves as they were being made. Have the good moves outweighed the bad ones? You bet. When the Phils make shitty decisions, I call them on it. Not on the iffy ones. Thats my brand of fandom.

     The Dipsy

105. Don M Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 1:15 pm

     Speaking up …… and Crying for years (Garcia) or weeks (Lee) are two different things

     Maybe people are just that much more vocal when they DISLIKE the moves..

     Someone said two weeks ago, “Yea the Halladay move was great, and we’re all in agreement with it!”

     “BUT… yada, yada, yada, CLiff Lee, blah, blah, blah”

     And the amount that Gillick was criticized for Garcia, Eaton, Jenkins ….. was probably MORE than the praise he got for Moyer, Lidge, Werth, Romero, etc (but again that might just be because people don’t feel the need to explain way they agree with the moves.. but def feel the need to say why they hate certain moves)

     I get all that..

     Its just that the general tone of the past moves has been more about the fish that got away.. instead of the fact that we landed the biggest fish in the pond

     I’ll criticize them when it calls for it.. but until the bad moves outweigh the good ones, I don’t feel like they are making mistakes. Our team has gotten better in each of the past 5 seasons … despite falling 2 wins short in 2009, vs. winning in 2008. and I think that this year will be our best team yet

106. Chuck Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 1:45 pm

     There isn’t a perfect GM out there….They ALL make mistakes…some more than others..

     But it’s ridiculous to continuously harp on this move or that….especially when the moves pay off…(ex: Raul Ibanez)….ok….MAYBE we “overpaid” for him….MAYBE it should have been 2 years…instead of three….Maybe , maybe, maybe….we can always say “maybe”

     But Ibanez has paid off…just by his 2009 performance alone….and there’s no reason to think he won’t be good this year.

     The Cliff Lee deal WILL pay off…because he HAD to be traded when he was…..you said that yourself, Dipsy….and the farm is now restocked with at least talent that is further along than a few draft picks at the end of the year.

     And in the WHOLE process of that “transition”…between Lee and Halladay….Ruben got Halladay….THE BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL…for four years….and BELOW market value…

107. The Dipsy Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 2:19 pm

     Chuck – “The Cliff Lee deal WILL pay off….because he HAD to be traded when he was”. What in heck does the first part of the sentence have to do with the last part. And vice versa. You will never get me to agree that ownership was right in holding to budget and letting Lee go. Ownership gave RAJ a mandate: Halladay or Lee, but not both. Ruben, rightly, picked Halladay. And given this mandate, or “directive” he did an admirable job pulling off a deal. He had a small time frame with which to work in and it was a tough thing. I am very OK with Ruben. So…Chuck and Don, the next time ownership or RAJ effs up right in front of your face, what will you say? Anything? Should we all keep quiet like good little girls and boys?

     The Dipsy

108. Don M Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 2:28 pm

     or we could be d!cks.. and cry about it..

     All i ever ask is that people try to understand the reasoning behind deals..

     like the people that pitched when they got Chan Ho Park … and the people that bitched when we got Pedro Martinez .. .

     and they bitched when we got Polanco.. etc.

     Some dude actually said the other day that Amaro was terrible because he signed Danys Baez ?? …. REALLY??? That’s what pisses me off.. people that say stuff without thinking..

     The Lee deal sucks as a fan… but the bigger picture is that we got a better pitcher in Halladay .. and since we “stole” Cliff Lee to begin with.. I have no idea how or why people ever expected some massive return when we traded him now .. ?? And i’ve still never heard any answers besides HE WAS GREAT IN THE PLAYOFFS ..

     Yea thats true.. but because he great in the playoffs his “free agent value” goes up even more.. meaning he’s signable by even less teams..

     So how would we get a bigger payload of prospects for ONE YEAR of Lee, then we gave up for ONE AND A HALF YEARS..

     I know you’re passionate about the Phillies.. and I don’t often disagree with you, because you give your reasoning behind your opinions.. but most people on here don’t .. they just bitch for fun

109. Don M Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 2:35 pm

     You kow what looks like a HORRIBLE move right now?

     Brad Lidge at $12.5 Million …. but you pay for what he gave you as much as for what he gives you now..

     which is how we ended up with Jamie Moyer.. we had him as a steal when we got him in a trade. But he carried us at stretches in 2007 and 2008 (without him we didn’t make the playoffs, let alone win the World Series)

     They rewarded him for that.. to the tune of an $8 M or so contract for this year.. so on paper it looks terrible, but the fact that he gave us a chance to have that awesome parade .. I’m fine with not fielding a complete team of CY YOUNGS and ALL-STARS at every position …

     It would be nice, but I wouldn’t change a thing that the Phillies have done in the past few years, becuase its all worked out so great

     and all good things must come to an end.. Amaro trying to get some prospects back instead of just draft picks.. is trying to keep the party going a little longer, and I’m happy about that

110. The Dipsy Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 2:46 pm

     Don – Jamie Moyer did not deserve a second year @ 8m as a reward. Don – Players don’t get “rewards” like that. There are “bonuses” in contracts, though. On paper it looks terrible. In real life it looks terrible. And if you looked at it with 3-D glasses on it would still look terrible. Beacuse it IS terrible. An abominable misallocation of funds when we’re trying to stretch every penny. And it is hamstringing the team this year beacuse we could really use that money.

     The Dipsy

111. Chris.I Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 2:48 pm

     Im sorry Pat but thats the sillest shit I heard in awhile….Why would you want to move Ibanez and give the fulltime job to Francisco? Even if you split the time between Francisco/Brown/Mayberry it would be a huge drop in production. Ibanez has been an RBI machine since he’s been in the Seatle organization, and his numbers climbed even more when he came to Philly.

     Ibanez for Derosa swap…Okay…This is going too far. Let me get this clear, Derosa is NOT that good of a player. He’s just a super utilty player. We already have a super utility guy, his name is Dobbs (IMO who is just as good as Derosa) Maybe not at 3B but you get my point.

     If we wanted to trade for starting pitching, it would take pitching to get pitching…Thats just how it works. The only 2 players who hold value to this team who would be available via trade would be Blanton or Happ, and I just don’t see that happening because we would slowly diminish our staff. Hamels is NOT going anywhere….He’s got a free pass this season by Amaro. If he stinks it up this year, than yes! I think it would be safe to say he’ll be open next season

112. Don M Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 3:29 pm

     we needed a pitcher last year…at that point, a #4 pitcher..

     Moyer, effective throughout his career, and especially effective since he joined our team .. signed a contract .. and from what I read it was either 2 years or nothing.

     so we signed him for two years.. because he came here and had success, other Free Agents want to come here, and players are willing to be traded here .. which wasn’t the case just a few years back

     Now, as a #5 starter or a reliever, $8 M seems like way too much money..

     But we needed him last year, if that was the contract that it took to get him, then that is what we needed to do..
     hopefully he gets healthy and helps the team this year either as a Starter or Reliever

113. The Dipsy Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 3:43 pm

     Don. I disagree that we needed him last year. There were other pitchers available who were more effective and cheaper. I understand that you like Jamie. Its cool. It was a bad signing and we’ll live with it.

     The Dipsy

114. Chuck Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 4:13 pm

     We DID need him last year…who else would you have put in that 5th spot?? Kyle Kendrick?? After bombing in 2008?? And Moyer did allright…there are a lot of teams where Moyer, at 12-9, would be more like a 3rd or 4th starter.

     Dipsy, like it was said earlier, on another thread somewhere….you can’t always play “hardball” with players…sooner or later that sort of tactic gets old. Sometimes you have to “overpay” or pay what SEEMS like its too much. Sometimes you don’t.

     If ownership “effs up right in front of my face” so badly that I can’t stand it…I’ll say something. But so far, that’s really not the case. And it’s like I’ve said before….we have a BETTER team….right now…on paper…than we did 2 months ago…and we’ve gone to the WS two years in a row and won it all once….so what should anyone really complain about.

     It’s not as if Ruben has taken this team backwards…he’s just not done some of the “sexy” things that people think he should have done…

115. Don M Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 4:33 pm

     Going into last season we had..

     Hamels, Brett Myers, Joe Blanton, ………

     Jamie Moyer, and then a few uncertain guys.. Park, Happ, Kendrick left to battle for the 5th spot

     So Moyer was our #4.. which was a downgrade from him being the #3 in the 2008 postseason

     If you don’t think we needed him, Im not sure what else to say

116. Chuck Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 4:40 pm

     Going into last season….I’d rather take my chances with a 46 yr old Jamie Moyer …. as a #4 or 5…than some of the other options..

     Remember…going into last season…we had NO IDEA that J.A. Happ was going to develop into the pitcher that he was in 2009….if we knew that…he would have won that rotation spot right out of Spring Training..

117. The Dipsy Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 5:43 pm

     Don and Chuck – I should have been more clear. We did need another starter at the beginning of last year. Just not Jamie Moyer at the money and years we gave him. A one year Jamie woulda been fine. If you recall, the majority of fans voiced their disapproval of the extra year at the time and, as it turns out, rightly so. The Phillies don’t play “hardball” with anybody. I get the feeling that every player always takes Ruben’s first offer because its always a above market value. And the Phillies (ownership) have effed up in front of your face and you defend it.

     The Dipsy

118. Chuck Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 6:11 pm

     They don’t play “hardball” with anybody?? Really??

     Scott Eyre was offered a minor league deal….so he retires….if the Phillies wanted him so badly…they would have offered more money for him to consider staying.

     Chan Ho Park is gone becasue the Phillies didn’t want to pay him what he wants…and he wants to be a starter…which he sucks at.

     Cliff Lee wouldn’t have been signed long-term…because he would have demanded more than the Phillies would want to pay.

     Same will be true of Ryan Howard when the time comes.

     I have a feeling that Jayson Werth could be a problem resigning…because his worth will be probably more than what the Phillies will be comfortable with.

     These are just SOME of the examples…some may make sense and others not…but it emphasizes the point that the Phillies don’t just open up their wallets and pay anybody whatever they want to play here.

     If they did….payroll would be $200MM per year and most of us on here would be able to afford to go to about 2 games a year.

119. PhxPhilly Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 7:22 pm

     The fact that Moyer pitched so poorly but STILL met incentives for his second year is terrible. Moyer signed a 2yr $13M contract with incentives. $6.5M for a known quantity #4 SP was probably okay.
     I still did not like it and thought they should have at least arbitrated him. (He was a type A free agent and no other team would sign him and give up a draft pick. Though he won 16 games the prior season he would have had no leverage to negotiate with any other team. If we went to arbitration maybe he wins and gets $10M but we only have him for the year.)
     The ‘best’ option in the Phillies range for 2009 was Derek Lowe at $15M per season. He pitched okay (better than Moyer) but the Braves would love to unload that contract.
     The fact that Moyer ‘earned’ another $1.5M that could have been spent to keep Park (who also should have been arbitrated, best he could have got was probably $5M and he likely would have declined but we’d get a mid draft pick) or sign one more decent relief pitcher is just unbelievable.

120. shag beta sigma delta Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 8:16 pm

     Park wants to start that is why he has not been signed. Really Lowe? The braves can keep him at 15 mil per. A lot of you bitch about the Moyer signing, and I just don’t get it, he won 12 games last year, and pitched well out of the pen even though he did not want to be there. The two games he came in after Pedro and pitched 6 or 7 innings he was really good. If he can come back from the surgeries, he will 10 games again this year, he is not an awful # 5 guy. I also think Kendrick can be a serviceable #5 also. If Cole comes back and pitches well, this rotation in dominant Doc, Cole, Big Joe, JA and whoever you want as #5

121. The Dipsy Says:
     January 8th, 2010 at 9:18 pm

     Look y’all. Jamie is done.

     The Dipsy

122. Chuck Says:
     January 9th, 2010 at 9:39 am

     Derek Lowe at $15MM per year?? Now there’s a real effective way to keep in budget. You guys are unbelieveble.

     Look…Moyer shouldn’t have been signed to a two year deal. I think we all agree on that, right? But he’s here for this year…let’s just hope he can contribute towards the success of this team.

     Someone said several days ago that Moyer should have been released. Ok…and we still have his $8MM …or whatever it is….on the books…that makes absolutely ZERO sense….especially for a team that is as budget-concious as the Phillies are.

123. The Dipsy Says:
     January 9th, 2010 at 9:59 am

     I was high on the Derek Lowe bandwagon last year. Wanted him REAL bad. But the Braves ended up making a horrible sign with him. 4y/60m. Man, talk about an albatross around your neck. Chipper is also signed for a lot of money through ‘12. He is getting old quickly. Releasing Jamie is just plain ridiculous. How would you guys feel about signing Blanton to 3y/21m?

     The Dipsy

124. Chuck Says:
     January 9th, 2010 at 10:15 am

     Blanton at 3/21 seems like a steal to me…but I have to wonder if he could fetch more on the open market?? Would he want to stay here…knowing he could be a real, effectrive #3 or #4….and be part of a winning team….or could the guy get $10MM per year somewhere else??

125. The Dipsy Says:
     January 9th, 2010 at 10:33 am

     I don’t think that Blanton could get 10m right now. I think that 3/21, maybe even 3/22-23 is something that, if I were Joe, I would think about. To date, he has been a workmanlike starter, no better no worse. But hell, I’ll take a workmanlike starter at the back of my rotation anytime. He’s going into his arb year and he’s on a WS team. He has a bad year this year and he won’t get 8m a year. Plus, if he did sign that contract and outperforms it, he’s still young enough to sign a long term deal with someone when that contract runs out. What do you think?

     The Dipsy

126. Pat Gallen Says:
     January 9th, 2010 at 12:17 pm

     Not sure how francisco would be this awful, huge dropoff from Ibanez. Let’s say Francisco plays 150 games.

     He hit 15 HR in 121 games in CLE 2 years ago. Give him 30 more games and he probably goes for .270/20/75 with some speed and a little bit better D than Ibanez. Maybe he becomes a better hitter because of the lineup he’s in hitting 7th…

     All im saying is, think outside the box. If getting rid of Raul keeps Shane and Jayson Werth, you might think about it.

127. Chuck Says:
     January 9th, 2010 at 12:42 pm

     If Roy Halladay gets $20 MM per year….at a discount….Blanton can get more than $7MM….he’s a VERY GOOD #3 starter….BETTER than “workmanlike” in my opinion. 3/24…or around that might do it.

     —–

     Francisco wouldn’t be an “awful, huge dropoff” from Ibanez….and…. to put him in corner outfield position makes more sense than center….(somebody suggested THAT…center….the other day)….I just don’t know what r you’re gonna get for Ibanez in a trade..

128. Jeff Dowder Says:
     January 9th, 2010 at 3:44 pm

     It’s already been rumored that Jayson Werth will be looking for Jason Bay dollars, so I’d be shocked to see him return in 2011.

129. psujoe Says:
     January 9th, 2010 at 3:54 pm

     Ok, I’ll bite on the trade.

     Ibanez for

     Brian Wilson
     Fred Lewis
     Buster Posey
     Scott Barnes

130. The Dipsy Says:
     January 9th, 2010 at 4:02 pm

     What do you think Blanton would do if you threw a 3y/21m contract in front of him right now. Sign it or say no?

     The Dipsy

131. Chuck Says:
     January 9th, 2010 at 5:58 pm

     He would say no….and if I was him I would too. Blanton can get 8-10 per year in this market, I believe.

132. The Dipsy Says:
     January 9th, 2010 at 7:28 pm

     But he’s not a free agent.

     The Dipsy

133. Dylan Says:
     January 10th, 2010 at 12:36 pm

     Buster Posey is going no where. He is the best of the best in their system. We couldn’t get him straight up for Ibanez let alone with other players (Wilson esp.)

134. Dylan Says:
     January 10th, 2010 at 12:37 pm

     Werth for Cain….they would prob. listen to that, but I doubt it would happen.

135. Chuck Says:
     January 10th, 2010 at 2:54 pm

     I know he’s not a free agent….but he has one more year, right?

136. shag beta sigma delta Says:
     January 10th, 2010 at 3:33 pm

     I really think it is too early to talk about trading Raul, or any of the outfielders.
     As far as Fransico, I say you let him play more this year resting all three outfield positions. I am not suggesting a total platoon with Raul, but see if you can get the guy 40-50 starts in the outfield, I think it does two things. See if he can be a legitimate outfielder in case you can not keep both Vic and Wreth, and have all three outfielders more rested come Sept. and Oct.
     As well as keeping him sharp to PH

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