How Much Longer Should We Give Park? – Phillies Nation

How Much Longer Should We Give Park?

ChanHoJust six days ago, we were discussing whether Chan Ho Park was facing his final start as a Phillie. Now, that all seems like a distant memory.

Park will face the Dodgers tonight in the first game of a three-outing set. This team is a lot like the Mets in their offensive prowess – a team that features a few guys who can do multiple things at the plate. Park will need to mix up his pitches again, paint his corners and work diligently to keep the Dodgers at bay.

But what if he screws up again? What if Park hands in only a two- to three-inning start? Should we start the clock again?

Click to comment


  1. sawaob12

    May 12, 2009 at 11:03 am

    I still think he’s on a start by start basis. Happ has thrown so well, we can’t keep him in the pen any longer. I think for the next few starts, Park will have to throw 6-7 solid innings to keep his job.

  2. The Dipsy

    May 12, 2009 at 11:05 am

    Let me first state the Chan Ho Park sucks. He will not be a starter come June 1. He’ll be good in the pen with him coming in as a mix with Scott Eyre to do lefty/right stuff in the 6th or 7th inning. Let me also say that Jack Taschner is even worse than I thought. He should not be allowed to pitch again. To lefties or righties. That said, it should be J.A. Happ. When Romero comes back we’ll have enough lefties. Next question: Who replaces Moyer? This may be where a trade is in order. D’Arnaud and Savery for Oswalt? Anyone? Bueller?

    The Dipsy

  3. Geoff

    May 12, 2009 at 11:06 am

    Parks start last week bought him two more starts. Moyer is now at even, meaning hes really got to get it done in the enxt 3 or 4 starts or hes out. Hamels and Myers are up and running. Blanton has two to three more starts before something has to be done about him. JA Happ is still waiting, but even with him in there, you have two more slots to fill if things dont improve.

    I mean youve really only got two starting pitchers right now. The other three will combine to give you a good start occasionally. This is not really acceptable.

    So lets say you put Happ in for Park – who I have full confidence in. That gives you Hamels Myers Happ. So lets say Moyer tanks. Is Carrasco ready? Not right now. Is Kendrick a major league pitcher? No. Drabek? Still too raw. Worley, Stutes? Maybe, only a year removed from the draft though.

    So basically if more than one guy needs replaced youre looking at a big decision. I think if both Blanton and Moyer tanked out and had to be traded for nothimng, DL’d, or sent down then youd have to take a flier on promoting one of these young arms and then use your assets to go out and trade for a proven solid starting pticher.

  4. Manny

    May 12, 2009 at 11:07 am

    A 2 or 3 inning start should definitely be a seeya pal situation (send him to the pen in this case).

  5. Jack

    May 12, 2009 at 11:07 am

    I believe that he gets this start and one more. If all goes well in these two outings, you stick with him for another 2-3. NOw if things go back to the way they were the next two outings, Mr. Happ gets his chance and Park becomes long relief. What if he throws out there 3 consecutive QS and gets hit around the next game? Can him? No way, give him 2 more starts and then analyze the situation from there.

  6. Geoff

    May 12, 2009 at 11:09 am

    Houston would want Carrasco or someone closer to the majors…theyd probably want Donald and/or Mayberry because Tejada is liek 57 years old and ailing from years of steroid use.

  7. The Dipsy

    May 12, 2009 at 11:13 am

    Oswalt is in his walk year. And Ed Wade is their GM.

    The Dispy.

  8. Jack

    May 12, 2009 at 11:13 am

    I doubt Ed Wade is going to hand us another stud for “potential”. The whole city of houston will each have an opportunity Shawn Chacon him as a giveway for all home games for the rest of the year if he even thinks about that.

  9. The Dipsy

    May 12, 2009 at 11:16 am

    Oswalt is not a stud anymore btw. Check the stats!

    The Dispy

  10. PtheBLovesTheBallGirls

    May 12, 2009 at 11:17 am

    I love people who post here… Moyer gets shelled after a few good starts in a row and all of a sudden he is done.

    You really are what have you done lately kind of folks I guess. Forget that one week ago he was our best starting pitcher.

    I hope Charlie is much smarter than all of you and realizes that demoting Moyer will set the rest of the rotation back since he in fact is the best pitching coach we have.

  11. mikemike

    May 12, 2009 at 11:17 am

    Dipsy that name fits you, Houston isn’t giving up Oswalt for that junk, We would drive the bus to houston if they would take a 254 minor league hitter in mayberry and a ulitity in donald and a Carrasco who is getting hit again, why don’t we give them coste, cairo, taschner, park, think they would go for that? to get oswalt it’s going to be a Michael Taylor or Dominic Brown, a Worley, Stutes or Drabek and a Marson or Donald , They will want a least three of these players to make the move.

  12. Geoff

    May 12, 2009 at 11:20 am

    Moyer has had TWO good starts, and the rest of them have either been dog dirt terrible OR the old mediocre 4 runs 6 innings which is somewhere between good and dog dirt terrible.

    I forgot wade is their gm. That means we could trade like Christ Coste, Brad Harman, and Drew Carpenter for Roy Oswalt and some utility bench player.

  13. Jack

    May 12, 2009 at 11:23 am

    Remember, Lidge didnt have Grienke-esque numbers when we “stole” him from Houston either. Your gonna have to give up a ton to get Oswalt. He is almost the face of their franchise right now and arguably the most consistent pitcher in the NL in the past several years. Unproven Carrasco? Mayberry (already have Lee, and Pence)? I would love it but doubtful. To rectify and pitching woes we have right now, we will look within our own for now.

  14. PtheBLovesTheBallGirls

    May 12, 2009 at 11:24 am

    Anyone who wants Oswalt is an idiot as he has basically the same line as Moyer all season, roughly 6 innings with 4 earned runs.

    With the offense we have 6 innings and 4 earned runs should be a W 9 times out of 10. This team is built to score runs everyday.

    Moyer has had two good starts which is ONE more than every other pitcher on this team so far.

  15. Geoff

    May 12, 2009 at 11:26 am

    Right but you see that getting 4 run 6 inning outings from our pitching, even with our offense, theyre NOT winning 9 games out of 10. thats the whole point! thats NOT happening right now. IF it was we wouldnt be talking about this.

    Look at Oswalts numbers…hed probably be better than Moyer but hes not the ghuy he used to be. But someone else brought him up thats not the guy that Id want to bring in here anyway. Hes a flyball pitcher – and those dont work too well here…

  16. The Dipsy

    May 12, 2009 at 11:28 am

    Oswalt IN …HIS…..WALK…..YEAR.

    The Dipsy

  17. Jack

    May 12, 2009 at 11:29 am

    Oswalt is 32 yrs old and has a career 3.17 era. Please, please do not compare hiim to Moyer. As much as I love Moyer and everything he has done for Philly, he is not Roy Oswalt. Oswalt has been amazingly consistent and as much a competitor as Myers(with a cooler head). Oswalt has been an as ace for quite a while, whereas Moyer has been more of a coach with pretty solid numbers the last 2-3 years. Were not getting Oswalt for unproven talent.

  18. Jack

    May 12, 2009 at 11:35 am

    Oswalt not a stud anymore? Dipsy… stop. 2006-2008—- 46 wins. And ERA of 2.98, 3.18, and 3.54. If i am reading this right, he is pretty close to our ace, cole hamels, and has been way more healty too. Dont get me wrong, i am not comparing cole and roy, i am just proving a point that he is extremely valuable and worthy of more than 3 unproven prospects.

  19. PtheBLovesTheBallGirls

    May 12, 2009 at 11:37 am

    Oswalt has been a ace for a while now but he is on his downslope… look at how 32 yr old power pitchers fair in their declining years, unless he juices like Clemens he will be an afterthought in a few years. He had his run and now he is out of gas. Check his game log, it is very unimpressive and his only win came on a day when he got 12 runs in support

    I am not comparing Moyer and Oswalt in their careers just their stats so far this season in which they are extremely similar.

    As Geoff said a 6 inning 4 run game should be enough for a win with our offense but lately our offense hasnt been pulling their weight so instead of talking about how horrendous the pitching has been why dont we look at how horrendous the offense has been.


    May 12, 2009 at 11:43 am

    If he has another two or three inning start, he should definitely be sent to the pen. I wasn’t high on the guy to begin with and I’ wouldn’t sit around waiting for that good start every 10 outings.

  21. Georgie

    May 12, 2009 at 11:44 am

    The sad thing is, most of us have been concerned about the starting rotation since last season, but because the Phils won the WS, this problem got shoved under the rug during the off-season, the FO hoping/assuming that it would be the same as last year. Now we’re facing the reality that maybe one or more of our starters are not what they were last year, maybe not even major league caliber. If it turns out that just one of them sucks, we should be able to address that, but if it’s three, we’re screwed.

  22. Jack

    May 12, 2009 at 11:45 am

    I agree with PtheBLovesTheBallGirls to an extent. Will Osawlt decline, possibly. But you dont know that. You cant really judge a guy, including Moyer, based on April numbers when they have proven themselves year in and year out. After all, if we were to magically get Oswalt, it would be for this year and this year only. So, if he were to drop over the next few years, it shouldnt affect us much. If we get him, it will be at the Trade Deadline and Houston must be totally of it. And it will not be for 2 prospects.

  23. BDphils

    May 12, 2009 at 11:46 am

    Oswalt is not coming to Philly, so it’s not even worth discussing.

    Moyer can still rebound, I wouldn’t be so quick to write him off. Park is only as good as his next start. We have a good problem in that at least we have some depth with Happ.

    It’s still Mid May everyone, let’s not worry to much. Did anyone watch the Mets last night?

  24. Jack

    May 12, 2009 at 11:50 am

    Yea, Mets had a bullpen breakdown last night. Great to watch. Its like watching Fragglerock! Awesome and funny!

  25. PtheBLovesTheBallGirls

    May 12, 2009 at 11:51 am

    Why doesn’t Charlie go with a six man rotation over the next few weeks?

    It gives the guys from last year an extra day off between starts to rest up a bit more if this really is the hangover from the extra month of postseason pitching. It also gives Happ a chance in the rotation to prove himself. At the end of the the three weeks, drop the worst starter in the past few weeks to the pen.

    Seriously Charlie needs to address this and ASAP we can’t fall to far behind in the East, each game will be essential as we approach August and September. Drop Cario from the bench and add a reliever to the pen and give the six man rotation a chance.

  26. Jeff of NoVa.

    May 12, 2009 at 11:54 am

    not interested in trading for a 32 year old pitcher and the Phillies aren’t either.

  27. The Dipsy

    May 12, 2009 at 11:55 am

    Why isn’t Oswalt coming to Philly? Why? Why? Tell me , please. We don’t have things Houston wants? We don’t “need” or “want” Oswalt? Do you have special “knowledge” we don’t have? Moyer stinks. Look at his last 5 years. Park stinks. Look at his last 5 years. In fact….look at everbody’s last 5 years while you’re at it.

    The Dipsy

  28. PtheBLovesTheBallGirls

    May 12, 2009 at 11:57 am

    Oswalt is not coming to Philly because he is 32 on the decline and may or may not have any good innings left in him. The Phillies do not need another 30 year old in their rotation and could definitely benefit from getting younger and using the talent in the minors instead of selling the farm for a guy you will have for half a year who may or may not be effective.

  29. The Dipsy

    May 12, 2009 at 11:58 am

    32 year old pitcher (gasp)!!!!! You’re right. If he were a horse he’d be shot.

    The Dipsy

  30. BDphils

    May 12, 2009 at 11:59 am

    Dipsy, you are right I don’t know for sure he isn’t coming to Philly. But I echo was Jeff says above. Why would we or the FO want a 32 year old pitcher in the last year of his contract??????????

    Every team has something it wants from another team.

    Saying Moyer stinks is outrageous. He won 16 games last year, has tons of knowledge to give to younger players (which is invaluable). Not arguing you on Park, like I said, he is only as good as his next start. If he explodes tonight, bring in Happ.

  31. Jack

    May 12, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    If we get Oswalt, it is for one year. One more time. IF we get Oswalt it is for one year. Stop bringing up his age and the “possibility” of him declinging. He is having a less than average start to the very, very early 2009. The Phillies are not ready to give up what Houston would want in return for their 5-6 year ace. Gotta stop this silly talk.

  32. PtheBLovesTheBallGirls

    May 12, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    Okay so we get a declining Oswalt for one year, he is still declining. He has already given up 9 Hrs, which is one behing Myers and Moyer. Why would we want to give up so much for a pitcher who does the same thing half our rotation already does. Give up 4 runs in 6 innings and be suspect to the home run ball which in our park Oswalt would give up a ton more homers.

  33. ryan

    May 12, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    Chan Ho Park should never have been in the rotation in the first place. he has a proven track record of being a bad major league pitcher. he’s always been bad. for almost a decade now he’s been puttering around the major leagues being a terrible pitcher. he will never be any good. JA Happ on the other hand has a ton of upside and could show himself to be a true #2 starter in this league possibly. give him the chance.

  34. Bruce

    May 12, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    How did someone like Oswalt get in this discussion when the topic should be about Park? Oh.., I see, you have the usual group of GM wanna be’s here..;-)

    In the real world when one looks from the perspective of the manager, Park’s experience as a veteran with a proven track record of effectiveness as a starter is more desirable for the rotation. He also won the 5th spot in rotation with his solid performance in Spring Training. His outstanding six inning effort in his last outing justified Charlie Manual’s belief in his ability. At this point, there is no reason to think Park would not continue to do well. Given the problems of consistency with the other starters (highest ERA in baseball). Manuel needs Park in the rotation and certainly preferable over an inexperienced rookie like Happ. Manuel see the young Happ as a better fit for the bullpen and as a work in progress in obtaining Major League experience and knowledge of hitters. Yes, the ultimate goal for Happ is as a starter. But as they say, he has to put in that dues and EARNED that right. Be patient fans, it’s not baseball fantasy where you toss names on your wish list like Oswalt.. (chuckles)

  35. Dave S

    May 12, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    I think Park gets -20 more innings.

  36. PtheBLovesTheBallGirls

    May 12, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    1 good outing in no way justifies 5 horrid starts. He gets two more starts, if he fails he will find himself in the pen.

  37. Brett

    May 12, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    Park hasn’t been a decent starter in years. He didn’t even play two years ago. He was a decent bullpen guy with a couple spot starts last year wherein he was effective, but failed to last more than 5-6 innings. Either all the Phillies starters need to get their act together, or we need to start examining the possibility of trading for a big arm. THATS why we’re talking about Oswalt.

    Happ oughta be in the rotation…

  38. mikemike

    May 12, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    With Myers contract up this year, and Blanton on a one year deal same with Park. The phillies have more tools to make a trade this year then last for a starter, Some prospects like Taylor packaged with a worley marston for a harden might work, and throw in a blanton with his expiring contract, to take harden place for this year, might be attractive, If not we can’t win with this rotation, park stinks, blanton had a lee type year last year. bad pitching ,but won due to great offense.

  39. Evan

    May 12, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    If Park doesn’t pitch well, his leash should depend on what he does wrong. Basically if his control isn’t there and he gives up walk after walk he should be replaced with Happ. If he’s throwing strikes and leaves a hanger or two that gets crushed I’d say give him another start. He should be able to control his pitches, he should he could do it in spring training, if he’s giving up a ton of walks then he’s just unable to get where he needs to be mentally in order to start in the majors.

  40. Evan

    May 12, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    he showed he could do it*

  41. christopher

    May 12, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    cole hamels just walked by me at 15th and chestnut. he was flanked by two small guys in suits. weird!

  42. Chuck P

    May 12, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    Since Geoff always seems to be alone in his thoughts, this one should be chimed to the tune of The Lone Ranger theme song…

    Seya pal, seya pal, seya pal pal pal
    Seya pal, seya pal, seya heads will roll
    Seya pal, seya pal, seya pal pal pal

  43. Richie

    May 12, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    Bruce you are right though we should change this blog to Phillies GM’s Nation. I wonder if Ruben checks this site out from time to time. He would laugh his ass off if he did, but what is better than talking trades honestly. Now I would have loved for the Phils to have went after Derek Lowe, give the Braves credit for out-bidding the Mets on that, but the steal that no one really talks about and I would love him in this rotation is Javier Vasquez. He has been healthy and keeps his team in the game for years now and they got him for peanuts.

  44. Richie

    May 12, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    Chris the other day I had a weird thing happen to me, I was driving through Rittenhouse Square where I would see Burrell walking his dogs twice a week and who do I see yesterday?? RAUUUULLLLL!! Everyone was waving to him walking with his kid. Weird shit!

  45. Rob

    May 12, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Harden just signed an extension, so that isnt happening.

    Anyone think a Worley might jump AAA ala Kendrick or will they take it slow with him?

  46. Don M

    May 12, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Hamels has a place in Liberty Place. 16th & Chestnut-Market..

  47. Geoff

    May 12, 2009 at 1:17 pm

    I think if more than two guys need replacing (most likely out of blanton, park, moyer) , then the order of replacement will be:

    1st hole: Happ
    2nd hole: trade for significant starting pitcher
    3rd Hole: One of Carrasco, Worley, Drabek or Stutes (not kendrick) – they may jump one of those guys up from AA like Kendrick is they REALLY need to.

    I think Park is the most likely to be replaced – obviously. follwoed by Blanton and then Moyer.

  48. Geoff

    May 12, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    or tyson brummett maybe

  49. Bruce

    May 12, 2009 at 1:37 pm

    I understand Richie. I’m not oppose to reading proposed trades, etc. (chuckles). Actually, it’s entertaining to read some “out of the box” ideas and thoughts on desired players. I’m one of those armchair or grandstand managers who will yell at the TV when my team make blunders in losing a game. However, in the end, when calmness prevails,I keep everything in perspective. And that’s what I preach to other fans. Stay with the big picture of a marathon season. It’s ok to read ideas and suggestions within the realm of reason. But for me when I read comments that turns reality into outright fantasy that no manager or GM would go anywhere’s near, then it becomes pointless for me to comment on it. But that’s just me and for others who do like that, well..that’s their choice.

  50. Richie

    May 12, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    Well Bruce the great thing about our farm system now is that we can actually be in the running for the one year rentals now. Now with the prospects we have this year we could grab a guy ala Sabathia with the brewers last year. Can you imagine if we got Sabathia last year, I know we won the WS, but how scary is it to face Hamels and CC. I am hoping for the Jays to fall off this high horse they are on and see Hallady on the blocks come July…..

  51. Don M

    May 12, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    How about this stat…

    “Philadelphia is the only team in the majors not to win a game while scoring fewer than five runs.”

    is that true? It was in an article..

  52. Georgie

    May 12, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    Given the team’s ERA, I would completely believe that stat.

  53. mikemike

    May 12, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    Brummett be serious no chance, why just throw out names, no one in there system will be brought into the rotation except maybe Carrasco if he shows that he can be more consistent. stutes, worley and especially Drabek no way, they would rather have park go out there ever fifth day then take Drabek and hurt his developement, If you have followed him he was hurt and only goes five innings most starts, they are trying to be carefull with him, Stutes isn’t near ready, Worley needs to see more innings in double a and then go to triple a .

  54. Jeff of NoVa.

    May 12, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    Here is the problem that many Phillie fans have

    Our Pitching Staff is very diverse…. right now that diversity is hurting us.

    Hamels- when healthy has nasty stuff.

    Myers- when his head is in the game has a nice curve with strong velocity

    Moyer- fools people for a living- he never was and never will be anymore than that, and some days he will not fool anyone, but he has fooled more than he has not.

    Blanton- is similiar to Myers with more consistency

    Park- my opinion is a bullpen guy.

    We all want that power guy that overwhelms and dominants. Well that is Hamels, Anyone that is being traded in July is not going to be that guy:(

    Remember when everyone wanted Manny last year to Philly. Or we were all excited that we got Freddy Garcia. how about Kevin Millwood. The only guy I feel the Phillies missed out on was Derek Lowe. A sinker baller in the bank is key.

    I am sure the FO is not going to trade our many valuable resources in the farm for an expriing contract of Oswalt. We do not have a #1 pick this year(Ibanez signing) and that is fine cause Ibanez was worth it, but we need to make sure we do not deplete the farm for a pitcher for 2 months. I mean we got screwed with Burrell cause if we offered him arbitration he would have taken it, instead we got nothing for him.

    As far as trade bait I think the following would be traded if the setting was right

    1. Kyle Kendrick
    2. Mike Cervanek
    3. Chris Coste
    4. Drew Carpenter
    5. Jermey Slayden
    6. JA Happ
    7. Joe Savery

    Happ and Savery would probably not traded

    I am using what I read about the minors and the thoughts the FO has about them, I follow the minors pretty extensively, and those would be the only ones that make sense unless we are getting a ready made stud with major upside

  55. Geoff

    May 12, 2009 at 3:07 pm

    I believe in trading for a guy with a year left of his deal as opposed to in his walk year…itll cost a bit more but its a better move.

    I tossed some of their better young arms out there saying they may call one of them up and jump AAA if theyre really desperate. Like I said. Carrasco doesnt look ready at all so any more than one hold opens up theyll have to make a trade unless they want to risk bringing up carrasco when hes not dealing in AAA or vance worley or stutes. I agree that drabek must be handled carefully though…same with knapp. knapp is liek 19, no need to rush him at all in any way…

  56. Griffin

    May 12, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    Roy Oswalt is signed through 2011 with a club option for 2012.

    If a stud starting pitcher is put on the trading block, it will be Peavy, who is signed through 2012 with a club option for 2013.

  57. Pete

    May 12, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    guess what? our rotation’s combined numbers are almost EXACTLY the same as Adam Eaton’s 2007 season…. check it out…..

  58. Geoff

    May 12, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    Mike Cervenak is 31/32 years old….They missed out on their chance to get anything good for Chris Coste, same with Kendrick. Those three guys would just be throw ins with a B type prospect.

  59. Don M

    May 12, 2009 at 3:32 pm

    Griffin. is. back.

  60. Griffin

    May 12, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    yeah baby!

  61. Justin

    May 12, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    J. Roll batting 5th tonight according to Todd Zolecki’s blog.

  62. Justin

    May 12, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    Cervenak will be 33 in August, he’s a journeyman, who would come to the Phils asking for Cervenak in a trade? Geoff’s right if he’s in a trade that means he’s a throw in to get quantity back even though he’s been tearing up the International League, Terry Tiffee did the same last year in the PCL and he’s no where to be found on a MLB roster, heck he signed with us and has yet to play a game with Lehigh Valley, he’s been on the DL for the entire start of the season.

  63. mikemike

    May 12, 2009 at 4:47 pm

    Jeffofnova The only person you mention who has any value is Happ and its not that great. What kind of pitcher would you get for all the over thirty orgizational fillers you listed, And the last one Savery is right now a first round draft choice, who is throwing at 88 miles a hour with a straight fast ball. He is the ultimate bust. No one would give you more than another first round bust for him. Like the phillies trading Golson for Mayberry both are first round bust. can’t hit a enough to use there tools.

  64. Bruce

    May 12, 2009 at 5:18 pm

    Don M, FYI… The Phillies are now 0-10 when they score three runs or less. They’re 15-4 when they score at least four runs. The source for that info comes from Yahoo Sports website.

  65. Jeff of NoVa.

    May 12, 2009 at 7:32 pm

    Mike you have some good points,

    Basically I don’t think they are going to make a trade. Kendrick is putting up pretty good numbers and may lure a team with very little back fo the rotation pitching.

  66. Bruce

    May 13, 2009 at 12:25 am

    Oh … are there still any doubts about Park’s capability as starter after tonight’s game? Dipsy? Ryan? Anyone? (chuckles)

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