Poll: When should we start to worry about the Phillies? – Phillies Nation

Poll: When should we start to worry about the Phillies?

I think everyone is at least a bit concerned about the Phillies performance this season, but when should we hit the panic button? Is your response different than when we asked back on April 7th?

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  1. DCmikey

    June 11, 2012 at 10:48 pm

    Really stretching for a topic here.

    My answer and w no disrespect meant at all- who cares?!!!!! It doesn’t matter what we think. Let’s all just relax and (hope GIO Gonzalez gets hurt) have faith!!!

    Besides who knows who really signs onto here. We know the smart, real Philly fans- lefty, ericL, the dip, the nice version of jeff,Pat, etc etc- others will just skew our poll.

    We are 8 back. U didn’t think all these injuries would eventually catch up w us???!!

    One would think we would take 2/3 from Minny- but w the unpredictability of Kyle and Joe- who the heck knows.

    Let’s go Phillies….oh and for the poll, I was worried when, for the second consecutive season, Ryan Howard ended our season being carried off the field. He is our guy. And I was worried or just po’ed when I realized that JMJ was NOT going to be able to step up for us.

  2. Chuck A.

    June 12, 2012 at 7:29 am

    I think if we are 10 out of the last playoff spot (currently 5.5 GB) by the deadline then we have to be worried enough to shake a few things up and look towards 2013 and beyond. What those “things” are I have no idea – that’s why I’m not the GM. And, while I will remain hopeful, I have my serious doubts. I’ve said it a few times – I just don’t think this is their year.

  3. Brooks

    June 12, 2012 at 8:04 am

    Lets see, Phils are 2-8 in June – 0-5 in one run games in June (5-11 for the season).
    Lee has 0 wins for the year, Hamels is 0-2 with a 5.9 ERA in June, Doc is out, Howard and Utley are still out –
    How are things looking?
    Peachy, just peachy

  4. Ryne Duren

    June 12, 2012 at 9:40 am

    hey guys i don’t know how you guys feel but is it me or are a lot of people getting to dislike lee? i don’t see it here as much as i do on other sites. but a lot of people are ragging on lee! i feel for the guy! most pitchers in both leagues would chomp at lee’s stats except for wins and losses! i’d take a 5 man rotation of lee’s. i mean the guy gives up a 3 run bomb to a carreer minor leaguer yeahhhhh! it happens. if we score when we have the chance, or just field the ball duhhhhh you get the picture. the bomb doesn’t matter we should hve had a 6 or 7 run lead! and if wiggy fields the ball or pence catches that ball ( which he should have) we were still playing.
    i remember a game lefty was pitching back in 72 the year he won 27! it was against the xpos a guy named bombo rivera hit like 2 hr’s and one was a salami. it happens to the best. the guys playing now are subs bench guys who belong on the bench. they were brought in to fill in, ph. and be temp replacements to give guys days off blah blah. but they’re playing every day. is it any wonder that they’re in last place? if guys like j-bag and vic would play like they’re capable and if pence would play balls in the OF better it would sure go a long way helping us weather the storm till we start getting some guys back. what your feelings on my thoughts fellas?

    • Ryne Duren

      June 12, 2012 at 9:46 am

      oh by the way i read a lot of the other sites and it’s hands down THIS site is way better! and in my eyes the commentors seem to have a grasp on what you’re commenting on! so when i ask for your input i know i’ll get an intellegent response! keep up the good work PN!

      GO PHILS

      • Don M

        June 12, 2012 at 10:40 am

        The problem is the people that get too low-and- too high instead of staying even keel….. Lee is a very good pitcher, but for some reason people fell in love with him and he was more of a fan favorite than Cole Hamles !?? (Hamels, the guy that delivered us a World Series) ….

        Those same people are now the reactionaries that want to trade Cliff Lee, etc. . . . the good news is that Eagles training camp starts soon and some morons start worrying about who the Scout Team’s backup inside-linebacker is … and they’ll stop pretending they know anything about the Phillies

  5. Don M

    June 12, 2012 at 9:40 am

    Freddy Galvis is injury prone

  6. Manny

    June 12, 2012 at 9:48 am

    Think about it this way: If we DO make it after coming from behind, we will be THE hot team come playoff team. Hehe

  7. Manny

    June 12, 2012 at 9:54 am

    Remember: The Cardinals were 10 1/2 games out of the Wild Card race on Aug. 25 last season, but got hot, won the Wild Card, upset the Phils in the NL Division Series and won the World Series.

    Read that again… 10 1/2 games in late August… and here we are panicking over being 5 1/2 games out (sans Halladay, Howard, and Utley). I just don’t buy that a team that won over a 100 games in a year can suddenly drop to out-of-contention status when it’s not even August. Label me cautiously optimistic.

    • Don M

      June 12, 2012 at 10:45 am

      “THese are all your players. your old. your crippled. sign them all. ruben minaya jr. the donnys and the chucks. third highest payroll. you did this”..

      oh sorry, I just figured I’d input what a certaub someone is going to eventually say now, to get it out of the way.

      I agree completey.. people blaming Amaro fail to see that improved a team that won 102 games last year …. and while they may be older, and on the decline … to decline from 102 wins ain’t too shabby. . . . . . . no Howard, Utley, Halladay, Galvis, Worley, Polanco, etc. at times this year . . . . playing as bad as we possibly can … and we’re 29-33

      from cnnsi: “Philadelphia’s position players have the most WAR (7.3) in the majors over the past 30 days, along with the highest wRC+ (105) in the NL over that span. As the Phillies await the returns of Chase Utley and Ryan Howard, Carlos Ruiz and Hunter Pence have paced the offense with 21 home runs between them. Despite their 29-33 record and last place standing in the NL East, the Phillies still have the third-best run differential in the division.”

  8. Chuck A.

    June 12, 2012 at 10:46 am

    Ryne Duren – I wasn’t for the Lee signing in the first place. I thought it was excessive and, at the time, I wondered if it would hamper them in their efforts to sign Hamels long-term.
    That said, Cliff Lee is a very good pitcher and his 0-3 record doesn’t even begin to tell the whole story this year.

    BUT…. he coughed it up in the playoffs last year and he did the same against the Orioles this weekend. A pitcher making $25M per simply can’t give up a 3-run bomb to a .231 hitter with 2 career HR…..especially having him at a 1-2 count. Can’t happen.

    • Don M

      June 12, 2012 at 11:32 am

      Lee has looked disinterested to me at times this year . . . . the fact that he has 0 wins is a joke, but the fact that he just plain doesn’t care and doesn’t focus 100% this year concerns me. . . . .

      for all the sh!t that Howard gets as the $25 M-man …. I’m surprised (not really) that Lee isn’t getting sh!t on for his lack of focus

      • schmenkman

        June 12, 2012 at 11:42 am

        “but the fact that he just plain doesn’t care and doesn’t focus 100%”

        Don, you say this as if it’s fact. The second part you might — might — be able to guess at by his pitch selection and execution, and even that is far from certain. But as for the first part, we really have zero clue whether that’s true.

        I’ve heard him say that he pitches the best he can and that’s all he can worry about, and maybe that’s what you mean, but I hear that as 1) it’s hard enough to pitch in the majors without worrying about things you can’t control, and 2) it’s a way to avoid throwing your teammates under the bus.

      • Manny

        June 12, 2012 at 12:01 pm

        Sorry Don, but I have to completely disagree with you here. You can’t seriously blame Lee for anything this year… He has the THIRD xFIP in baseball (Greinke, Strasburg, Lee… then Gio, then Dickey, then Hamels)… the SECOND in K/BB, an outstanding 5.69…. and also the THIRD best SIERA in all baseball (Greinke, Strasburg, Lee..then Cole, etc).

        “Lee has looked disinterested to me at times this year.” Didn’t he also look disinterested during Game 1 of the 2009 WS? Yea, I thought so. That’s he style and we should know that by now. The guy has been a stud and nobody can honestly ask any more from him at this point in the season.

      • Don M

        June 12, 2012 at 12:07 pm

        true… I should have said … “IT LOOKS LIKE he just plain doesn’t care and doesn’t focus 100% …………”

        his “whatever” attitude that some thought made him the coolest dude ever, has always rubbed me the wrong way. I like the fact that Hamels gets pissed off on the mound sometimes, show some emotion, be human …

        the HR that Lee gave up to whoever-the-hell-that-was on Sunday was a TERRIBLE pitch, and I think* it was him being mad that he wasn’t getting the outside corners, deciding to go inside, but throwing a lazy pitch – not committing to it 100%, and thus not executing it as he should

        I don’t know if I can blame the pitchers, when they have no offense, and now no defense behind them

      • schmenkman

        June 12, 2012 at 12:16 pm

        I suppose the offense will have to stop being an excuse sooner or later.

        Totals so far: more offense than Miami or Washington.

        Last 46 games: more offense than all but 2 teams.

    • Ryne Duren

      June 12, 2012 at 2:40 pm

      yea chuck i hear ya pal but unfortunately that dumb stuff happens

  9. Colin

    June 12, 2012 at 10:49 am

    I have been saying it for 2 years now (look at my old comments on other articles if they are still here). They are cooked. Ruben Amaro looks at this team and only sees injuries as a problem. I see a Chase Utley who had been in decline for a few years BEFORE the knee injury that “popped up” before 2011 season. He looks at Jimmy Rollins and says “if he can get back to where he was”. I see a guy that has been in decline for 4 seasons before 2012. You can’t rely on these guys, as good as they once were. He was looking at Polanco after last season and saying he isn’t old, he was injured. I think he was injured because he was old, and his body is breaking down. He has mortgaged our future for championships…that’s fine if you win them. He hasn’t. Werth left, and instead of letting Brown (who suddenly is a prospect again) learn on the job, he sends away our future for a guy that is almost as good as Werth. Burrell left, and he is still looking for his replacement (though I will admit that Ibanez for 1/2 a season was exciting, and his overall numbers were better than Burrell’s over that 3 year period). But look at us now…we have nobody to bail us out in the minors, and we won’t for at least 1 more year. Our rotation is suddenly looking old, and Hamels is walking after this season. And so we have the possibility of having no offense OR pitching in 2013. Amaro is the problem. He only sees the guy starting the game on the hill, and has let the rest crumble.

  10. Dave

    June 12, 2012 at 11:28 am

    I don’t know about the rest of you, but I have lost a lot of interest now. One of the few bright spots about this otherwise cloudy season was seeing how Galvis performed. Since he went down and his ROY chances right with him, there’s not many reasons to turn on the tv.

  11. Don M

    June 12, 2012 at 11:29 am

    Nobody that we traded would be helping us right now either . . . . They are all still in the minors, and still unproven against MLB talent.

    people act like as soon as a player starts to decline, he’s garbage??

    A declining Rollins, is still a better SS than most others in baseball …… a declining Utley is still better than most others in baseball, etc . . .

    there were people that wanted to trade those guys after their career years “because their value was at its peak” …. but I think people forget that PROSPECTS are prospects, not sure things – so the more proven talent you have at the MLB level, the better off you’ll be.

    • colin

      June 12, 2012 at 12:10 pm

      Really, a declining Utley is better than most? He has underperformed every 2b in the league in April and May, and now June, simply by not being there. Rollins can’t hit anymore. Why have we lost in the playoffs/WS for 3 straight years? Offense. If something is not working, you have to fix it. This season was a throw away year anyway with Howard’s injury. Amaro should have let Rollilns walk, use that money to spend on Hamels, and stick Galvis at SS and see what he can do. Rollins contract will be an anchor around the neck of the team for 3 seasons, and a vesting option for a 4th. We are 3 months into the contract, and he is cooked. He is a 240 hitter now, with no power to speak of. That $11 million would go a long way to paying the $20+ you need for Hamels. But you would rather have a 240 hitter than a stud LHP?

      The prospects are our future, but even if you decided to trade them, get them to fill positions of need. SP was not a need. You already had Lee, and Halladay was going to be a FA. Keep the prospects, resign Lee and then buy Halladay on the market. Then you can use the prospects to fill that hole in LF that has been there for 3 years. You (Amaro) claim that the Phillies need to be more patient at the plate, become contact hitters to manufacture runs then you go and sign Laynce Nix and Ty Wigginton?

      The point is (about Utley) is that you can’t count on him to be healthy anymore. He played in 115 in 2010, 103 in 2011, and will play in less than 85 by the time he comes back in 2012. Amaro has to replace him. He is done. The knees will not be getting better/stronger.

      Amaro has let this team grow old. There is nothing in the minors to replace the players that are done, and nothing to trade with anymore. You are fooling yourself if you believe otherwise.

      • schmenkman

        June 12, 2012 at 12:32 pm

        On Utley, we don’t know what we’re going to get this year when he (presumably) eventually returns.

        Last year, when he was on the field he was arguably the best second baseman in the NL in terms of value per PA (neck and neck with Phillips). More here…


        But you’re right that by not playing he is being outperformed. If you just compare his total stats last year (so that he gets dinged for missing time), then he was still 2nd best in the NL, behind Phillips but ahead of Weeks, Espinosa, and Walker.

        The bottom line on Utley is that he is owed $15 million this year and next NO MATTER WHAT, and he missed only 16 of the last 116 games after returning last year (and 8 of those to a concussion). Given a limited budget, expecting him to manage through his knee issues rather than getting another starting-quality second baseman was a very reasonable decision.

        And you want more offense, yet you want to “stick Galvis at SS and see what he can do”? Rollins is not the issue here. He was the best option this off-season, and he will earn his contract.

        By the way you didn’t mention how sheepish you felt when you said they were cooked two years ago, and they then proceeded to win 97 games, and then 102.

      • Colin

        June 12, 2012 at 1:58 pm

        Actually Schwenkman, I was not sheepish at all…2 years ago, in the offseason, when Utley still had trade value. You could see that his play was diminishing. Each of the past 2 years (at that point) there was talk that he played hurt throughout the year, which was the excuse that was being given for his diminishing play in the later parts of the season and the postseason. So no, I was not sheepish…I was more like Nostradamus.

        As for Galvis vs Rollins, my point is 2 fold. ONe, with replacing an aging SS with a young player with potential to better than the aging guys is today, we save close to $11 million, which would have allowed us to pursue Aramis Ramirez, who would be an upgrade over Polanco, or go towards resigning Hamels. Or save the money and put it to this upcoming offseason’s moves. Galvis actually has produced more than Rollins this season (in 67 less PA, from the 8 hole, he has 24 RBIs to Rollins’ 16. 15 doubles to Rollins’ 9. Now, Rollins has more runs, but he also has guys like Pence hitting behind him instead of the pitcher. The 2nd point is at this point in his career Galvis has an upside. If he gets his experience playing in this abortion of a season, wouldn’t he be better than next, when we can expect to contend with a healthy Howard all season (and, presumably Halladay, Lee and Hamels)? This was not a season that any reasonable baseball observer could expect the Phillies to contend in. I am on record as saying that since they got knocked out by the Cards. If you were saying otherwise, then you were wrong. This team says that they cannot spend more money, they are at their limit. Then why spend $11 million a year for 3 (maybe 4) years on an aging 240 hitter, who can’t hit anywhere but leadoff, and doesn’t do that well either. This was a year to retool, get younger.

        Even if Utley comes back and hits 40 homeruns in the last 80 games, he still was only there for this team for half a year. The trend is he is playing less and less. That comes with age and injuries. Would you rather have a 300 hitter for 80 games, or a 280 hitter for 162 games? They got lucky when Galvis could field at 2b…he had never played 2b in the minors…all but 1 inning (3b, 1 chance) in the minors had been at SS. Oh, and Galvis hit 278 in the minors last year…Rollins never hit above 274 in the minors. You have to give young players time to grow.

      • GM

        June 12, 2012 at 2:43 pm

        Colin – If you mention that Rollins scores more runs than Galvis because he is followed by 2-3-4 instead of the pitcher, then you need to consider the same lineup positioning for RBI’s. Freddy hit behind Ruiz for a while, and even after Chooch was moved up, still had position players batting ahead of him to drive in. Jimmy has the pitcher batting ahead of him, so that reduces his potential for RBI’s.

      • schmenkman

        June 12, 2012 at 3:41 pm

        Just like Nostradamus indeed. Interpreting vague predictions to match actual events.

        On Galvis, he had exactly one season where he did not suck at the plate, so it’s understandable that chose to re-sign Rollins. And while he’s had some key hits, he’s also the second worst hitter on the team at the moment, just ahead of Mayberry, while Rollins has been hitting better lately.

        ARam is not much of an upgrade if at all, by the way. He turns 34 this month, is not very good defensively, and has only 30 more at bats than Polanco over the last 2+ years.

      • colin

        June 12, 2012 at 5:01 pm

        If you had a choice, spend $11 or 12 million a year for the (then 33 year old) guy who had a 278 batting average over the past 4 seasons, 23.25 HRs, 88 RBIs, 71 runs, playing at a position that you had ZERO prospects in, or the 33 year old who averaged 261 (from the leadoff spot), 14 HRs, 60 RBIs, 77.75 runs over the same period in a spot where we had 1 prospect, which would you take? Furthermore, Ramirez’s numbers had not been in decline. Rollins’ have been, and continue to decline. Neither signing was ideal, but one gave you an upgrade at 3b, while providing you with some insurance at 2b if Utley couldn’t go (Polanco was a 2 time GG at that position) and allowed you to get Galvis some experience at his natural position.

        While you are right that Galvis only had 1 good season at the plate in the minors, he was developing, and the key was he had that season at the higher levels. And if you are saying that Galvis sucks, but look at what Rollins has done lately, then take out Galvis’ 0-12 start and he is hitting 242, which is better than Rollins…along with more RBIs.

        And with respect to Galvis’ numbers in the minors, he came to a foreign country at age 17, and began playing ball. The adjustment to the different culture, language, etc., had to take its toll. Maybe at age 21 (last season) he finally matured and adjusted. What were you doing at 17? The kid is in the majors because he can play.

        Ozzie Smith batted 258, 211, 230, 222, 248, 243, 257 during his first 7 seasons, but you probably would have sent him back to the minors, huh?

  12. Chuck A.

    June 12, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    Lee said in his post-game interview on Sunday that the pitch he made to Tolleson (he of the 2 career HR and .231 average) was a GOOD pitch….and that he just hit it out. Huh??? THAT was a good pitch?? Sorry, dude, I just don’t get you on that.

    So, Manny, yeah…. I CAN blame him for something this year.

    Look…maybe I’m just resentful that BECAUSE of Lee’s contract that there’s now a good chance that the Phillies won’t be able to re-sign Hamels…who I think is a better pitcher and is only going to get better as he keeps maturing.

    • Manny

      June 12, 2012 at 12:24 pm

      With the exception of 2013, the Phillies WILL have enough money to pay Hamels in the future. I don’t know what’s all the fuss about us not being able to resign him anymore… I swear it’s 98% media-driven.

  13. Manny

    June 12, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    Seriously, if you complain about Cliff Lee, realize that it’s exactly the same as a Nats fan complaining about Gio, a Brewers fan complaining about Greinke, a Mets fan complaining about Dickey, a White Sox guy complaining about Sale….

    The only difference is that Lee has ZERO wins… and as much as people pretend to not care about that stat, in the end… when the $hit hits the fan (like now)… they do… Just to blame somebody for something.

    It’s called frustration. Take it on something/someone else, cause Cliff Lee is doing a stellar job. So are guys like Cole + Chooch.

    • Lefty

      June 12, 2012 at 1:09 pm

      (well) Said!

    • Jeff Dowder

      June 12, 2012 at 2:42 pm

      It’s not exactly the same. Lee is the second highest paid pitcher in the game.The average fan isn’t looking for Lee to just be good, they’re looking for him to dominate. When a player’s salary reaches those of the elite, the expectations of the fanbase also become greater. They aren’t going to be happy when he blows a four run lead in the NLDS. They aren’t going to be happy when he hasn’t won a game by the middle of June. They aren’t going to be happy when he blows a three run lead in Baltimore. Expectations reach another level when a player makes as much money as Cliff Lee does. Reasonable or not, that’s what the average fan is complaining about.

  14. Chuck A.

    June 12, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    Maybe they will have enough money…whatever that is….but the real question is will they spend it. I just have this feeling that after committing all that money to Cliff Lee that they now feel that they need to go in another direction.. A big bat maybe??

    Amaro has been on the radio a few times and he repeatedly talks as if Hamels is OVERvalued. And he says it in a sort of smug way, like he knows the market that well in order to make a statement like that. He said it in S.T. and he said it recently on 97.5 FM. All of that kind of concerns me..

    • Manny

      June 12, 2012 at 12:37 pm

      That is concerning… but at the same time, it’s sports radio. Gotta take everything on there with a grain of salt.

    • schmenkman

      June 12, 2012 at 12:40 pm

      First, I see Amaro’s comments as simply a negotiating tactic (I wouldn’t expect him to say that Hamels is worth every penny of $25, or he’ll have a hard time staying under $30), and secondly, I don’t think Amaro knows how to speak on any topic without sounding smug.

  15. Chuck A.

    June 12, 2012 at 12:45 pm


    Listen to the last third of the interview where he talks about Cole and his value.

    • George

      June 12, 2012 at 2:20 pm

      I listened to the interview, and just didn’t hear any spot where Amaro indicated that Hamels is overvalued. He just seems realistic to me.

      • Chuck A.

        June 12, 2012 at 3:27 pm

        It was the part where Missanelli mentioned the conversation he had with Ruben in S.T. and it came out where Ruben felt that he couldn’t understand how Hamels could be valued the same as someone who won a Cy Young Award. The reference was obviously Lee. THAT makes no sense to me when you realize just what Hamels HAS done, how old he is compared to Lee,and the fact that he’s home-grown lefty.

        My feeling is that Amaro is downplaying Hamels’ worth in order to justify his signing of Cliff Lee, which was something he did to win over the fans after the public relations debacle over him trading Lee away in the first place. He realized that he made a mistake or that a mistake was made (ownership was involved with that decision), had the opportunity to correct it and he did.

        Somewhere, though, in the whole chain of events of trading for Lee, trading Lee away, signing Halladay, trading for Oswalt and signing Lee to come back….somewhere in that whole thing I think he sort of forgot about Cole Hamels and HIS worth to this organization.

        Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m full of sh!t. But this is my opinion for right now.

  16. TheDipsy

    June 12, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    Schmenkman – There is simply no precedent for Cole to get anything close to 30m. He’s a smug bastard though.

    The Dipsy

    • schmenkman

      June 12, 2012 at 1:03 pm

      (I didn’t mean the $30 literally — just a big round number)

  17. SavannahPhilliesPhan

    June 12, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    I don’t know if this is crazy…but I had this thought about Cliff Lee. I wonder if unconsciously he is losing because he is hoping to be traded to a younger team who are contenders to win the WS. Many of these pitchers signed with Philly because they wanted most of all to win a WS ring and be in the playoffs. Perhaps they see this downward spiral with all the injuries etc. as a look into the future. It may takes the Phils 2-3 years before they are up and running again and on a run for the WS. Afterall they may be privy to things we don’t know about Hamels, Utley and Howard. And maybe they are thinking that at their age they can’t afford to wait. Any thoughts?

    • GM

      June 12, 2012 at 3:34 pm

      Who would want to trade for a losing pitcher $100 million left on his contract? If Lee wanted to get out of town, he’d continue to pitch well and try to drive up his trade value.

      • Jeff Dowder

        June 12, 2012 at 3:51 pm

        Try naming the last player traded with $100 million left on his deal.

      • GM

        June 12, 2012 at 4:14 pm

        It was probably A-Rod to the Yankees in 2004.

        I don’t think Lee will be traded within the next few years, but if that really was his goal, he wouldn’t try to lose his way out of town.

  18. SavannahPhilliesPhan

    June 12, 2012 at 3:32 pm

    Another thing….I saw an interview after one of the games early in the season and Jroll was asked about being in contention for the WS. His answer was a smile and said not with this group. I think there is alot of contention in the clubhouse and alot of finger pointing as to who is to blame.

    • Chuck A.

      June 12, 2012 at 3:37 pm

      I’ve heard that, that the clubhouse is a mess. It was a sports radio thing so, again, you have to take it with some grain of salt, but just the fact that it’s being talked about isn’t good.

  19. Chuck A.

    June 12, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    There is ZERO chance that Cliff Lee is traded. 1) just what Jeff Dowder said – players don’t get traded with $100M left on their contracts. 2)Ruben doesn’t want to have another public relations disaster on his hands because of Cliff Lee. 3) he has some sort of no trade clause I’m sure. Remember, he WANTED to come back here.

    No, Ruben is boxed into a corner with this one. He went out and got Lee back but, I think, failed to realize just how valuable Cole Hamels is. Now he has some tough decisions to make. And it will be another public relations problem for him, most likely. If he wants Hamels back someone has to go. Vic?? Pence?? It’s not gonna be Cliff Lee.

  20. Don M

    June 12, 2012 at 4:39 pm

    Phillies wouldn’t trade Lee unless Lee requested a move…… doesn’t anyone remember all the fallout from the last trade, and doesn’t anyone think there must be some kind of no-trade talks in the new contract. . .

    I think Lee must realize this Phillies team is operation at 75% right now . . . and next year with Howard back the lineup is different. I don’t think Lee will be traded this year or next, and if the Phillies go into a complete rebuilding-mode, maybe they move him in 2014 with 1.5 years left on his contract (i’d imagine they’d have to eat some salary to get any prospects)

    I mentioned it yesterday, but I really think that trading Victorino is a legit move to make at this year’s deadline… I would try to get prospects (not bullpen help for this year), since the strength of our organization seems to be a lot of young bullpen arms anyway . . . lets try to land some positional talent

    • GM

      June 12, 2012 at 4:51 pm

      Do you think that the Phils could land a decent prospect for Victorino? Maybe a 2B or 3B to replace Utley or Polanco? Would it be better to try to move Pence for a higher level prospect and extend Shane? Pence is already at $10.4 million and will likely get an increase next year.

      • Don M

        June 13, 2012 at 10:59 am

        I think that Victorino could very well be the best available offensive player on the market this year . . . . and so yes, I think he could land a decent prospect. …..and because the Phillies have pretty good talent evaluators in their system, I’d love to see us get multiple young players (even A+, AA) instead of just one AAA player – unless of course we really can get a great, young 3b prospect that has a chance to play next season (not sure if that player exists)

      • EricL

        June 13, 2012 at 11:19 am

        Pence is better than Victorino offensively and is under contract for another year. He is the more valuable commodity if you’re looking from a purely “what can I receive in return” standpoint.

      • Chuck A.

        June 13, 2012 at 11:51 am

        Add to that, Eric, that you pretty much hate Hunter Pence and want him off the team.

      • schmenkman

        June 13, 2012 at 12:14 pm

        Yeah, nice try Eric. Pence is slightly better offensively, but Vic is the somewhat better overall player. The only real advantages Pence has are the two-year age difference, and being under team control for 2013.

      • EricL

        June 13, 2012 at 1:00 pm

        Exactly schmenk, we’re in total agreement. Pence is the better commodity if you want the largest return.

        And, yes, Chuck, I have some small amount of disdain for Hunter and would not shed too many a tear were he to be shipped off to another team or Dante’s third circle of hell or wherever.

  21. SAM

    June 12, 2012 at 11:45 pm

    The Phillies are just pathetic right now. They will nevr win the pennant with the likes of Kyle Kendrick and Joe Blanton. These two guys are like hot and cold …. mostly cold. When the Phillies score runs …. these guys just give up more runs. If they gave Lee the same run support they give Blanton and Kendrick … he’d win some games. Everyone keeps saying, wait till Utley comes back …. he was 0-4 today. I don’t think Utley will make a difference. If anything, the first time he has to stretch to make a play … I think he’s done. On the other hand … Howard will probably be back too late. And, when he does come back …it usually takes him a half of a season to get hot. Unfortunately, we’re heading into July and this guy has not even got started yet. My question is …. ‘What the heck was Howard doing in the off season?’ Whit all the money he’s getting he could have afforded some great rehab and wound healing treatment. The Phillies are also playing like crap in the field. Hunter Pence has to stop diving for ever ball that’s hit to him. Sometimes it’s better to hold a guy to a single then let the ball go by and get a triple.Then there’s great Charlie moves like taking Thome’s hot bat out off the lineup(Baltimore game) so Mayberry can run for him. Now, instead of Thome coming up to bat again with runners on base …. Mayberry strikes out. Just brilliant!!! This is only the tip of the ice berg. This team is really in trouble.

    • Colin

      June 13, 2012 at 9:39 am

      What was Howard doing in the offseason? Are you kidding me? This is a 6 month minimum, generally 12 month injury. He won’t be the Ryan Howard you want this season. Nothing he could have done would have sped up recovery. This injury was about as serious as they come. SAM, you have to give the guy a break. I don’t recall a guy with his size ever coming back from this injury in less than a year, and I don’t recall them being the same, ever. Next you are going to go to an Eagles forum and complain that Jason Peters isn’t at the OTAs working out and getting ready for the season, and why can’t he get back by opening day. I can’t think of an injury I would want less for a big man.

      • Chuck A.

        June 13, 2012 at 10:08 am

        Colin – It’s not even worth responding to clowns like this sometimes.

  22. SavannahPhilliesPhan

    June 13, 2012 at 12:17 am

    Most teams put their best pitchers on when Halladay, Lee or Hamels play. And they match the crappy pitchers with Blanton and Kendrick. That’s why our guys can’t get any hits when Lee is on. I haven’t been watching the games recently too closely because it depresses me ….but I noticed that since Galvis went down, there haven’t been as many double plays.

    • Don M

      June 13, 2012 at 10:55 am

      It’s difficult to turn a douple play when the other team keeps hitting the ball deep into the seats

  23. Don M

    June 13, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    Due to what the Phillies gave up to get Pence, combined with the fact that they could lose Victorino after the season -and get no prospects in return . . . I don’t think they would look to move Pence. .

    Imagine a lineup next year without those two … with Utley still likely to be battling knee issues…. I think you need to keep Pence around at least until the 2013 deadline- to help give your team some offense

    It’s been mentioned multiple times that because of the 2nd Wild Card team, more teams will think they have a shot – which likely means more BUYERS at the deadlines… if you have a lot of demand, and not a ton of supply (sellers with quality players) … the price goes way up. . . Again, I think the Phillies can make a run at this with a healthy-ish Utley and Howard added to the lineup – and if Halladay and Lee can be the pitchers they usually are (and get the “W” results they usually do). . . I would not trade Cole Hamels, but I would trade Shane Victorino

    some people have mentioned a Polanco trade- but that gives us a hole at 3b next year, and I don’t think he’d get the kind of value in return to make trading him worthwhile . . . Another question though . . . if we bring Dom Brown up, does Juan Pierre become trade bait? He’s having a solid year- I think i’d look to capatilize on that

    • EricL

      June 13, 2012 at 2:18 pm

      If Victorino walks after the season the Phils will likely get a compensatory pick between the first and second rounds next season. It’s not a huge return, but it’s also not nothing.

      I agree in your assessment as I doubt the Phils will look to move Pence, but I’m saying that’s their best option and would bring back the most/best prospects.The package they gave up to acquire him is irrelevant. It’s a sunk cost at this point, so you have to ignore that previous trade. It’s like if you own stock in a company that is floundering and looks like it might be a bankruptcy candidate, you should sell your shares regardless of what you paid for them. You have to look at what you can get in return now, versus what you can get in return if you hold onto the asset; the original price is not involved in that calculation.

      So, hypothetically, if Pence were to be dealt and Victorino walk, you’ve just freed up something like $2o-22,ooo,ooo or so in salary, which allows for the acquisition of someone to fill in that hole, like a Michael Bourn or Melky Cabrera type, frees up some money for Hamels, or you could even bring back Victorino at something reasonable (he’s already indicated he’s willing to take a home-town discount) which, again, should work out to be less than what Pence will command (which I’m estimating at around $13 million next season and even more when he hits free agency). Corey estimated a few posts ago that Victorino will likely go for something like $12 million per, which is cheaper than what Pence will likely make (plus he plays a more premium position and is the better overall player).

      Really, i don’t see the upside in keeping Pence if you’re going to make a deadline move. He’s both more expensive and less talented than other options out there, and at the same time probably holds the most trade value. It’s basically a “no-brainer” to me, which, ironically, is also what I think Hunter Pence is.

      Polanco isn’t being traded because there’s not a huge market for defensive-minded 3B and I really can’t see Juan Pierre having much interest because he’s Juan Pierre and, sort of like Chris Carter, all he does is get on base. He’s not very good in the field and he has no power and no arm, and it just that players who get moved at the deadline are more often than not sluggers, starters and relievers. Scrappy slap-hitters aren’t typically highly coveted. Hell, look at the pathetic package the Braves gave up for Bourn last season, and Bourn is about 3x the player Pierre is.

      • Jeff Dowder

        June 13, 2012 at 4:31 pm

        Unless you’ve talked to 30 GMs, I don’t know how you can judge what the market for thirdbaseman will be next winter. A list of pending free agents is not the market. The market consists of players available through multiple means. As far as I know, baseball teams are still allowed to trade players. It’s RAJ’s job to find available talent, and that goes far beyond just looking at the free agent list.

      • EricL

        June 13, 2012 at 7:12 pm

        You’re right, without complete information I can’t know precisely what the market will be.

        But I can make an educated guess, based upon everything we know about baseball and the transactions we’ve seen happen over the last few years in baseball, as they set precedents as to how teams tend to operate. With that in mind, you’ll notice that players with little offensive prowess but who are exceptionally skilled defensively very rarely command any kind of significant return in trades. (They also tend to command less on the free agent market)

    • colin

      June 13, 2012 at 4:21 pm

      Don M, a Polanco trade would not leave a hole at 3b next year, because he is a Free Agent at the end of this year and that would leave the hole. But losing an injury prone aging 3b without any pop should not be a cause for concern. There has to be something better out there than him. And I love Polly’s game, but he is going to be 37 next season…with the problems he has had, I don’t see him gettting a shot to be anything more than a backup 2b/3b from anybody next year. Youkilis, Wright, Inge are all FAs next offseason. With the exception of Wright (who the Mets have an option on) none are world beaters, but I would take just about all of them over Polanco right now (which may be why the Phillies were scouting Youkilis). I would bet on them trying to trade for a 3b, or treading water with Wigginton/Martinez and looking at what is available in 2014. but Polly will be gone. I would trade him now, but there is no market for him, which is what they found out last offseason when they tried to move him to make room for Aramis Ramirez.

      • schmenkman

        June 13, 2012 at 4:59 pm

        I would certainly take Polanco over Inge, and I think chances are he’ll still be here next year.

      • Don M

        June 13, 2012 at 5:19 pm

        Polanco has a $5 M option for next year . . . and while he has no pop, he plays Gold Glove defense at a premium position – – – there is value in that, to the Phillies, and to teams that would like to improve their defense, and have a lineup where Polanco and his .289 avg, and .318 OBP would look pretty good in the 7th or 8th spot in the lineup …

      • colin

        June 14, 2012 at 10:16 am

        The reason why Polly has to go is offense. The Phillies have failed this year, and the previous 3 playoffs, because of their offense. I think at this point the Phillies will trade defense for offense. You know Rollins doesn’t have offense anymore. You know Utley is declining, in production and health. And both are getting up there in years. You can’t have another player like that in your infield, and Polly is the oldest of the 3. If he comes back it is because Utley finally calls it quits (and he won’t), or the Phillies realize he will only play half of next season, then you use Polanco at 2b. But I believe that the Phillies will try to upgrade and get younger at 3b during the offseason. The fact that they were scouting Youkilis indicates that they want an upgrade (though he is not much younger).

      • schmenkman

        June 14, 2012 at 10:38 am

        ” The reason why Polly has to go is offense” — not enough of a reason (and no reason at all if you’re going to throw out names like Inge).

        Even forgetting for the moment, that the Phillies have scored the 2nd most runs in the NL for their last 48 games, defense is no less important than offense.

        The Phillies may very well try to upgrade and get younger at 3rd. As always it’s a question of how much of an upgrade, and at what cost (salary, players, prospects)?

      • colin

        June 14, 2012 at 4:36 pm

        Schmenkman, really? Are you on the Phillies payroll? A publicist maybe? 2nd in runs scored in the last 48 games?

        How about wins? I know that they have lost 9 of 11, so how they doing? They are doing awful. Last place. They are getting old and are breaking down. How can you look at what they have and see a silver lining? They are the worst team in the league for runners left on base (that means they have left the most, in case you were having trouble figuring it out).

        Last place, and you want to keep everybody? A 2b that can’t play a half a season. But he is awesome baby! A 3b with no pop and he is injured every 2 to 3 weeks, and will be 37 by Thanksgiving, but you want to keep him. Why don’t we see if Pat Burrell can solve our LF problem? And maybe Rick Schu can bounce between 1b and 3b when Polly needs a blow or Howard’s ankle is bothering him. Dave Hollins might be available too.

        You are insane. This team is garbage, and you don’t seem to see anything wrong. Amaro has watched this team burn to the ground and all he can think about is pitchers.

      • schmenkman

        June 14, 2012 at 4:51 pm

        Colin, I never said they didn’t have problems, or every that they’re a good team. They’ve allowed the 3rd most runs allowed since April 23rd, and yet you have a laser-like focus on the lineup.

        Utley will be paid $15 M no matter what. Last year he was one of the best second basemen in the league when he returned, so of course they should see what he has left.

        I’m all for making improvements, but a) you need to look at all-around performance (not just offense), and b) what’s it going to cost in players, prospects, salary?

        Interesting article for you: http://www.thegoodphight.com/2012/6/14/3087845/the-phillies-are-a-good-baseball-team

  24. Don M

    June 13, 2012 at 3:02 pm

    Yea i don’t think the Pierre is likely to get us anything big in return – but again, with a crop of talent evaluators, that is generally pretty good ….and I doubt that Pierre is coming back next year, maybe we can pluck a young talent from someone’s farm system ……. that’s the whole point of rebuilding, right?

    Say you trade Pence – and you lose Victorino . . . and Utley isn’t the same…

    you just lost your intended 2-3-5 hitters in your lineup …… if you want to have any chance to have power in the lineup next year, while you still have Roy Halladay, and owe it to him to try to win …. you keep Pence to bat 3rd or 5th around Howard next year

    I like Bourn too, but I don’t think him or Victorino are the type of player to build your team around …. If you’re committing $12-15 M to Vic, Pence, or Bourn …. I’d pay Pence because he gets on base and has power

    • schmenkman

      June 13, 2012 at 4:15 pm

      You got me curious about Pence and Victorino’s differences, and if you look at what % of their plate appearances they do what, these are the differences:

      Pence K’s more (18% of PA’s vs. 11% of PA’s for Victorino)
      Pence makes other outs less (47% vs. 54%)
      Pence hits more singles (18% vs. 15%)
      Extra base hits are essentially the same (9%), with Pence hitting slightly more of those for HRs (4% vs. 3%) instead of doubles/triples (5% vs. 6%)

      Their rate stats for 2010-12:

      Pence’s OBP .010 higher (,347 vs. .337)
      Pence’s SLG .031 higher (.481 vs. .450)

      Isolated power (ISO), difference between slugging and batting average is essentially the same:
      Pence .187 vs. Vic .185

    • EricL

      June 13, 2012 at 7:08 pm

      Well, if Chase Utley isn’t going to play next season you’re going to have that 3-hole hitter problem either way. And if you replace Victorino/Pence with Bourn or resign Victorino you’ve gone a long way toward filling that hole in your lineup.

      I’ve said they should keep Vic or sign Bourn as they’re better overall players because the defensive side of the game is just as important as the offensive side.

      Since 2009, here are their fWAR numbers by season (2012 in parentheses):
      Bourn – 4.9, 4.7, 4.2, (3.6) – Total: 17.4
      Pence – 4.0, 3.2, 4.9, (1.4) – Total: 13.5
      Shane – 3.7, 3.7, 5.9, (1.5) – Total: 14.8

      rWAR totals are similar.

      WAR is the best metric we have to asses the value of a player on both sides of the ball, and Hunter trails both Shane and Bourn there precisely because he is so deficient defensively. If you had a team of 8 players as productive as Hunter Pence you would lose to a team with 8 Shane Victorinos, and both would lose to a team consisting of 8 Michael Bourns. The Pence team would hit more home runs yet still lose to the better overall teams.

      That’s the classic Amaro-Ryan Howard mistake. Yes, the guy hits for some power, but he’s bad everywhere else, and that really detracts from his value as an all-around baseball player. For example, if a guy hits a home run and then goes out and misplays a ball in the field allowing the opposing team to score they’ve negated the value that they provided offensively. If, however, you hit a single, steal second base and score on a base hit, and then go out and play exceptionally well in the field, you’re providing your team with a lot more value than the “slugger.” Ryan Howard got a lot of RBIs but only because guys batting in front of him did a pretty damn good job of getting on base. Same reason why Freddy Galvis has more RBI than Jimmy Rollins, who has a better slash line. Don’t overvalue home runs and “sluggers.” The Mets have only 44 home runs, 13th in the NL, yet are 5th in the league in runs scored. The Dodgers are 4th in runs scored while they’re in 14th place in the NL in HR. Good, productive hitters are what you want. If they happen to hit the ball over the fence a lot, great. If not, that’s fine too. But you want the best overall player, not just the best offensive player.

      Cliff Notes: Shane Victorino and Michael Bourn are better/more valuable players than Hunter Pence.

      • schmenkman

        June 13, 2012 at 7:55 pm

        “Ryan Howard got a lot of RBIs but only because guys batting in front of him did a pretty damn good job of getting on base.”
        – Yes, that, AND he was very efficient in driving them in (among the highest ROI% over the past several years).

      • EricL

        June 13, 2012 at 10:05 pm

        Sure, but the larger point (which I may have deviated from) is the RBI/HR he’s produced coupled with his baserunning and defense are nowhere near worth $25,ooo,ooo/yr.

      • colin

        June 14, 2012 at 10:29 am

        Excellent point (about Bourn vs Victorino and Pence). We probably should have gone after Bourn instead of Pence last season. The Phillies have been lacking contact hitters for the past few years, which is why they went out and got Polanco…if his injuries hadn’t taken that away from his game late in the season last year, it may have been a different story. You need table setters in front of guys like Utley and Howard, and while Victorino had a great year last year, Rollins and Polanco did not perform. Bourn has turned into one of the better all around CFs in the game. Anybody know Atlanta’s $$$ situation? Can they resign him?

        I disagree with you about Howard though. You need that big bat in the lineup because it does change the pitchers approach to the lineup. Howard is that kind of player. Pence isn’t, because he just doesn’t have that raw power. He may give you 30 HRs, but he doesn’t scare you. Howard has the ability to put it into the seats at any given atbat. Pence is a complementary player, much like Werth was for us. Now, I do believe we overpaid Howard, but that is not the issue here.

        And I don’t agree with you about how good the guys in front of him are. Polanco had his worst season ever last year. Utley was out for 60 games (and in 2010 he missed 47 games). Rollins hit 268 from the leadoff position. The year before (when he missed about 75 games) Rollins hit 243. the year before that 250. So how good were the 3 guys in front of him? And they pitched around him much of the year because he had guys like Ben Francisco or Mayberry (before he started raking) and Dom Brown behind him. Ibanez spent sometime in that 3 hole and 5 hole and hit a whopping 245. And yet, even while injured for the 2nd half of the year, he hit 33 HRs and 116 RBIs. Give the man some credit. He is still a very good player.

      • schmenkman

        June 14, 2012 at 10:52 am

        “Rollins and Polanco did not perform” – obviously you don’t care about defense.

        Rollins — 3rd best shortstop in the NL last year: http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=nl&qual=0&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0
        (also the 6th best hitting shortstop)

        Polanco — 5th best 3rd baseman in the NL last year: http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=3b&stats=bat&lg=nl&qual=0&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0
        (below average bat, but excellent defense)

      • colin

        June 14, 2012 at 1:52 pm

        Schmenkman, Rollins hit 268 as the leadoff guy last year. That sucks no matter how you want to spin it. As for his defense, Galvis might be as good, is cheaper, might have a bigger upside at the plate as Rollins’ production slips (as it has, if you include this year, for 5 straight years), and the money saved can help pay for Hamels’ new contract.

        Polanco hit 277, the worst since 1999 by him, and produced 89 runs. For a power position, that is horrible. And he is 36 and starting to break down.

        While I value defense, I also value offense. The Phillies have 3 stud SPs, 1 of whom is out for 2 months, another is winless, and the 3rd is in a walk year and it looks like the Phillies are playing games with him while he knows that the Dodgers (who are a hell of a lot closer to his hometown of San Diego than Philadelphia is) are sitting there with a huge bankroll trying to buy back their fans after last years debacle. They have a nice defense on the left side of the infield, an average one on the right (if you consider Utley and Howard), a bad one at the corner outfield positions (Pierre and Pence) and your GG CF is in a walk year of his contract and does not look like they are signing him. And their offense, while near the top (surprisingly) in batting average, is not producing runs. Oh, and the bullpen sucks. So while you are dreaming of yesteryear with the big bats of Rollins and Utley and the steadiness of Polanco, I am in the real world watching them get old and injury prone. They have to reload, and to continue to sign old guys like Rollins (and now you want them to retain Polanco) and hope that they capture 2008 again is foolish.

        And if you don’t believe me, just look…they have lost 9 out of 11 games, and are in last place. And once they leave the AL parks and can’t use the DH, or Thome hurts his back again, who are they going to rely on for offense, since he is the only one that is producing right now?

      • schmenkman

        June 14, 2012 at 4:08 pm

        colin, you keep throwing a lot of stuff out, almost all of it just plain wrong. I’ll hit on a couple:

        – Even though he’s a shortstop Rollins was not a terrible leadoff hitter last year; he was about average — how many shortstops can say that?
        – So bat Rollins somewhere else if you have a great leadoff hitter (which you don’t).
        – A little advice: don’t just focus on batting average — broaden your horizons, because BA is a crap stat. At least start talking OBP for crying out loud.
        – You must have seen the list of NL third basemen ranking Polanco 5th; yet you continue to think he’s not very good, simply because he doesn’t have power. There is no rule that says you need a power hitter at 3B (or any particular position for that matter) to be successful.

        In their last 48 games, the Phillies have scored the 2nd most runs in the league — I wouldn’t start suggesting changes under the mistaken assumption that this offense “is not producing runs”.

      • colin

        June 14, 2012 at 4:49 pm

        Schmenkman, I didn’t even bother looking at your list. You can spin it all you want, but the bottom line is that they are getting old, they are not producing like they once did, have lost their last 2 playoff series (and 3 of 4) due to an inability to score runs, and they are injury prone. The bottom line is results. They are not getting any now. 2008 was a long time ago. So was 2009.

        When players get old you replace them. The Phillies won’t move Rollins from the top spot because he is even worse at other places in the lineup. But the truth is Victorino is better suited for the leadoff, if you look at his BA or OBP. Neither are ideal, as neither are patient at the plate.

        But when a team is not winning, then it is time for change. Paying Rollins $11 million a year is stupid when you can get younger and use that money for somebody else who will help you. Would you rather have an aging Rollins and no Hamels, or Hamels w/Galvis at SS? I would take the stud pitcher. Galvis doesn’t solve your leadoff spot or offensive woes, but Galvis has potential, where as Rollins is on the downside of his career. Look at his offensive numbers for the past 5 years and tell me how he is NOT on the downside. Galvis is unknown, but if he doesn’t work out he is cheap, dispensible, and you go find a plan B. But you still have a base to build on with that pitching staff. To stand still is to die. That is what they have done with this offense. This year was a throwaway year. You knew Howard wasn’t coming back until late summer, no matter how much you hoped for him to be back in May. Any normal person would have at least had concerns about Utley’s knees. You knew that Mayberry was a gamble in LF. And you knew that Polanco was 36 and coming off an injury riddled season. 36 year old major league baseball players do not get sturdier and healthier unless they follow the Bonds plan.

        This lineup is done.

        LAST PLACE.

        Give me your address so I can send you a quarter. Go buy a clue.

      • schmenkman

        June 14, 2012 at 5:13 pm

        LOL — ok.

  25. Jeff Dowder

    June 13, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    My interpretation is that the Phillies would get two picks for losing Victorino (the pick of the team that signs him as well as a sandwich pick). This is dependent on the Phillies making him a qualifying offer (one year deal worth at least the average of the 125 top salaries). The same would obviously apply to losing Hamels.

    “The Elias free-agent rankings system is dead. Free-agent compensation is not. In order for a team to receive compensation for losing a free agent, that free agent must have played with the team all season. After the year, the team must offer the free agent a one-year contract worth the average of the 125 highest salaries. If that free agent signs with another team, the other team will give up its first-round pick, unless it picks in the top ten, in which case it will give up its second-round pick. The original team will also gain a supplemental pick between the first and second rounds. In the event that there are multiple such picks, the teams will draft in reverse order of winning percentage.”

  26. Don M

    June 13, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    and generally the players take what … 3-5 years to reach the majors, if ever…

    The Nats have Strasburg, Storen, and Harper because they sucked for so long – and drafted well ….those players also made a quick rise to the MLB. .

    I’d rather trade Vic for prospects that have been evaluated in professional baseball, instead of obtaining draft picks

    • Jeff Dowder

      June 13, 2012 at 4:21 pm

      Well, it works both ways. The Seattle Three were evaluated by the Mariners before coming here, and they’re not really on the fast track to the majors.

      Florida picked Giancarlo Stanton in the second round (76th overall) in 2007 and he was in the majors by 2010. If the Phillies have confidence in their scouting organization, I’d have no problem with two high draft picks.

    • George

      June 14, 2012 at 4:44 pm

      It’s pretty easy to draft well when the best available talent is so obvious. Seriously, did anyone think the Nats WOULDN’T draft Strasburg and Harper?

  27. George

    June 14, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    Does anyone have any idea what the average of the top 125 salaries is going to be? If management believes it will be more than they’re willing to pay, then they should trade Victorino, rather than make that “qualifying offer.” At least they’d get someone in a trade, which they wouldn’t without a salary offer they might not want to pay.

    That new CBA sucks for everyone except the players, and even the players get shafted in some instances.

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