Report: Ruiz Re-Signs with Phillies – Phillies Nation
Free Agency

Report: Ruiz Re-Signs with Phillies, 12:30 PM – Gelb reports the contract includes a club option for 2017.


Fox Sports’ Ken Rosenthal is reporting that Carlos Ruiz will re-sign with the Phillies. Matt Gelb is reporting it is a three-year deal worth $26 million. The deal will keep Chooch in red pinstripes through age 37. Ruiz was among the most productive catchers in baseball over the last three seasons, hitting .293/.365/.432 including an All-Star 2012 campaign. Chooch’s 9.5 fWAR since 2011 was the highest among any available free agent catcher, including Brian McCann.

The move comes as a relief to fans who have seen familiar piece after familiar piece of the 2008 squad leave or be replaced. Since 2008, Chooch has continued to grow as a player, going from a triple-slash line of .219/.320/.300 in 2008 to a .288/.371/.434 line since.

We will have more details to follow as they become available.

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  1. Brass Villanueva

    November 18, 2013 at 12:03 pm

    I like Ruiz, but this is just an awful contract. What a waste of resources.

    • Hogey's Role

      November 18, 2013 at 12:21 pm

      I concur

  2. Don M

    November 18, 2013 at 12:04 pm

    Didn’t I read that they wanted to limit him to approx 100 games behind the plate? … Three years for a catcher that you want to start limiting starts .. I just wish they had an actual plan in place – it seems like the past two offseasons are filled with random signings.

  3. Alex M.

    November 18, 2013 at 12:09 pm

    I would have been fine with a 2yr deal at around $7.5M a season. But a 3yr deal for $25.5M with an option for a 4th year is crazy. Chooch will be 35 before pitchers and catchers report in Feb and he is now signed up until he is 38, potentially 39. How does that make sense? Ruben is clearly in win now mode and I expect to see some more mind boggling moves before the season starts.

    • Ray

      November 18, 2013 at 12:17 pm

      How can they win now if they don’t have the talent? This blocks minor league prospects (or lack thereof) that they need to develop. They might as well trade C-level minor leaguers for veterans. Amaro is burying this organization. At least Ed Wade had talent in the Minors. This infuriates me. 3/4 years at that AAV? You’ve got to be kidding.

      • Alex M.

        November 18, 2013 at 12:20 pm

        O it gets worse Salisbury just reported that if he starts 125 games behind the plate he gets a 500k bonus. I am with you there, after seeing this I almost wish they would have signed A.J. just because the deal would have been cheaper and Rupp would have gotten more opportunities.

    • hk

      November 18, 2013 at 12:24 pm

      Alex M.,

      I agree that a 2 year deal would have made sense. They should have held the line at 2 years or let him walk. However, I think you are a bit confused about Chooch’s age. This deal is for his age 35, 36 and 37 seasons. The option year is for his age 38 season. His age 39 season is not covered in this deal. You’re just going to have to wait for RAJ to sign him to that one.

      • Alex M.

        November 18, 2013 at 12:28 pm

        who really cares the guy will be 35 in January and should not be getting a deal that could pay him 4 more years.

  4. Pamikedc

    November 18, 2013 at 12:15 pm

    Senior Citizens Bank Park

    give me credit when you laugh and re use it. Ha.

    • Hogey's Role

      November 18, 2013 at 12:23 pm

      Lol I like it… Clever

    • Lefty

      November 18, 2013 at 2:19 pm

      Nice Mike!

    • BenRoss

      November 18, 2013 at 3:01 pm

      Hahahaha I like the new name… perfectly describes us as of late

    • schmenkman

      November 18, 2013 at 3:26 pm

      Not to kill the joke, but the 2013 Phillies were younger than the 2008 team.

      Average age of batters, 2008-2013: 30.1, 31.3, 31.8, 31.4, 31.1, 30.0
      Average age of pitchers 2008-2013: 30.6, 31.2, 31.1, 29.2, 29.1, 28.7

      Those aren’t calculated by just adding up ages and dividing by the number of players. Instead they’re weighted by each player’s plate appearances and innings pitched.

      • Brass Villanueva

        November 18, 2013 at 3:35 pm

        Of course, that doesn’t really matter when the younger players are not talented.

      • schmenkman

        November 18, 2013 at 3:40 pm

        Exactly right — the Phillies have a talent problem, much more so than an age problem.

      • wbramh

        November 19, 2013 at 10:29 am

        David Ortiz had his highest RBI total in 6 years (103)
        He just turned 38.
        Ortiz even stole 4 bases (a career record) which put him just 1 stolen base behind Mayberry this year.
        How many young Phillies position players had better seasons than the once written off Chase Utley?
        How many of the team’s young pitchers out-performed 35-year-old Cliff Lee this year – or even 32-year-old Papelbon?

        I’m not mentioning these points to justify the 3-year, 26 million to Ruiz – just suggesting that disappointing performances transcend player’s ages. Of course, a bad team carrying a high payroll also suggests poor decision-making in the front office. Therefore, questioning the consideration put behind the Ruiz deal, becomes automatic. Statistically, it seems a risky a move as did the Byrd signing which (IMO) has all the earmarks of Demon Young, redux. Yes, decent catchers are in thin supply but the team already finished in 4th place with Ruiz wearing a Phillies uniform. If Ruben is planning to win now he’s not going to do it with the same horses nor other team’s nags.

  5. Hogey's Role

    November 18, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    Wow really??? I don’t know who engineered this contract, but they should consider another career path… 3 years and 26 million with a 4th year option… Come on, the mystery 2 year 20 million offer really screwed us on this one…

    If this were my team and my money i would be a little pissed right now…

    • Alex M.

      November 18, 2013 at 12:26 pm

      O I think that 2yr/$20M offer was legit, and it came from the Red Sox (who were reportedly in it till he re-signed). That offer likely forced Ruben to give Chooch a 3rd year. I thought he was not going to give Ruiz a 3 yr deal and now its almost a 4 year deal.

    • hk

      November 18, 2013 at 12:27 pm

      I don’t know who engineered it, but if I had to guess, I’d go with the guy who (a) gave Raul Ibanez 3 years in a market in which every other corner OF got 2 years, (b) gave then 46 year-old Jamie Moyer 2 years and (c) gave Papelbon 4 years plus a vesting option in a market where every other reliever was getting 3 years or less.

  6. Keith

    November 18, 2013 at 12:30 pm

    Good player, but too big of a contract. I think 2 years/$20M was borderline high. Word out of Boston was they were offering 2/$15M.

  7. Cory K

    November 18, 2013 at 12:31 pm

    You gotta be kidding me. I didn’t have a huge problem with the Byrd signing b/c I think someone else was gonna give him 2 years (although prob not at $8 mill AAV). But this is crazy. Nobody else was gonna give 3 years. Colorado dropped out at 2 years/15 mill. Chalk this up as another head scratcher, Ibanez, Howard, Rollins, Papelbon. Amaro has no patience. He has to be gone after this year !!!

  8. The Dipsy

    November 18, 2013 at 12:33 pm

    Relief to who? This contract is absolutely horrific. There is no other way to put it. Worse than the Ibanez contract. You just don’t sign 35-6 year old catchers to three year deals. I hope this contract is EXTREMELY incentive laden. I would have just assumed go with a journeyman catcher than pay this kinda money. Of the humanity.

    Thre Dipsy

    • Alex M.

      November 18, 2013 at 12:41 pm

      O the contract has incentives…he can earn an extra 500k in addition to the AAV of $8.5M if he starts 125 games. Ruben is the most inpatient SOB I have ever seen. I can live with the Byrd deal since other players are going to get double his AAV. But the contract Ruiz got is closer to what some were saying Salty would get (closer to 3/$33M). We are paying for his defense which is great as long as he is not injured which he has proved is no longer a certainty.

  9. Alex M.

    November 18, 2013 at 12:36 pm

    What makes me even more upset is that in 2 years Ryan Howard’s contract will be gone, Pap will be gone, Lee’s contract will be expiring, Utley may have moved on or still be around if he is healthy, Rollins and Adams will be gone in 2015, Marlon Byrd’s contract will also be expiring then. So basically after 2016 we can start a full on rebuild around Hamels, Gonzalez, Brown and other prospects. But now we are going to have a 37 year old catcher as well. 2 years would have made sense because then he would have been cleared in ’16, if this group of vets cannot win between now and then it is time to start over anyway. Ugh Ruben needs to be fired… he still has not found a pitching coach.

    • hk

      November 18, 2013 at 3:24 pm

      Howard’s contract, like Ruiz’s runs through 2016. Only Hamels is signed for 2017.

  10. bacardipr

    November 18, 2013 at 12:40 pm

    I like Chooch and wanted him back though i agree with Keith. 2/20 was borderline high…3 years with a 4th option is borderline insane..

  11. schmenkman

    November 18, 2013 at 12:40 pm

    I guess I’ll be the first to chime in that given the other options, including Rupp and Kratz, I’m glad Ruiz is coming back for ages 35-37. I don’t care about the 4th year club option — if it’s picked up at $4.5 M, then he must have had a good enough 3rd year.

    • Brass Villanueva

      November 18, 2013 at 12:54 pm

      So if there are no other great options, just throw $26 million out the window?

      • schmenkman

        November 18, 2013 at 1:02 pm

        Of course not. But what’s the impact of this allegedly crime? Would 2/20 be more palatable even though it eats up an additional $1.3 M per year of AAV in 2014-15? There are big contracts coming off by 2016 (Paps, Lee), so the 8.7 for that year doesn’t concern me too much then. I think this contract will look like a bargain at best, or comparable at worst, when the other FA catchers get signed.

      • hk

        November 18, 2013 at 3:25 pm


        I generally agree although I would have preferred $20M / 2 with a $6M option for 2015 to $26M / 3.

    • George

      November 18, 2013 at 1:10 pm

      The other free agent catchers aren’t all that spectacular, except possibly McCann (and even that’s debatable) and some of them are just about as old, some can’t hit lefties, and at least one will be getting more years/money. Phils prospects aren’t very close. Joseph may wind up at a different position due to concussion issues and Rupp projects as a backup. While the years seem at first to be excessive, I’m thinking those years at that salary might not be the sunk cost everyone seems to think.

  12. Dennis

    November 18, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    What is wrong with you people. Two year, three year, four year what does it matter for 26 million if he starts 100 games to some ball players its not the money. it is the love he has for the game of baseball. Its his contract not yours

  13. Carlos Ruiz dad

    November 18, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    This is a great deal. Tequila for everyone!

  14. Brass Villanueva

    November 18, 2013 at 1:02 pm

    “The Philadelphia Phillies have made the first two notable signings of the offseason, and this latest one is even worse than the first. Giving Marlon Byrd a little more than he was worth was bad, but giving Carlos Ruiz, a 34-year-old catcher with platoon problems who’s coming off a PED suspension a three-year deal is absolute lunacy.

    The deal, with an average annual value of $8.67 million, covers Ruiz’s age-35-through-37 seasons, and it’s not like his age-34 season was such a rousing success. Right-handed pitchers blew him up in 2013 (.257/.301/.335 line against), and he didn’t hit any kind of velocity as his bat had clearly started to slow. He still can do damage against left-handers and is an adequate defender, blocking pitches well and nailing about a quarter of opposing runners, but taking value away with poor pitch framing.

    Just 70 catchers have reached 400 plate appearances in a season in which they were 34 or older, and a third of them were worth 1 WAR or less — and that doesn’t even consider catchers who performed so badly they lost their jobs midyear.”

    “The Phillies…are creating a bigger mess for themselves for 2014 and beyond, and if next season leads to a GM change, it’s going to be a long road back for Amaro’s successor.”

    • Double Trouble Del

      November 18, 2013 at 10:28 pm

      As an instant antidote to Keith Law babble I give you:

      • Carlos Danger

        November 18, 2013 at 11:44 pm

        I tend to lean towards Law’s assessment. I’m not on board with Mr. Amaro’s winter plan so far. I can’t wait for the announcement that Halladay’s been signed to a three year deal (with the obligatory RAJ fourth year option).

  15. Chuck A.

    November 18, 2013 at 1:06 pm

    I agree with Schmenk. Who cares about the option year. It will only kick in if year 3 is good enough for it to.

    Also, and maybe I’m crazy…but I’d rather have Chooch for 3 years at 35-37 than a WAY overrated but younger Salty for potentially 5 years.

    I’ll take that shot of tequila now, Padre Ruiz!

    • Ryne Duren

      November 18, 2013 at 6:49 pm

      Here here Chuck. I’m with you and Schmenk. Chooch is a late bloomer hopefully as you guys said, the last year doesn’t matter. If he gets it that means he did good.

  16. Ray K.

    November 18, 2013 at 1:11 pm

    I personally think it is an excellent signing! He was in much demand elsewhere (because of the fact that he really knows how to handle pitchers, he is an above average batter, and he is seems to be well liked and respected by his peers) (in spite of the suspension, which hopefully will never be an issue again!).
    I don’t exactly think 35 qualifies as a Senior Citizen! Personally, I wouldn’t care if he was 55, if he could get the job done!
    On another subject, I think the Phillies should fill up their coaching staff before signing any more free agents, so that they can give their input. Especially a Pitching Coach, who should have some input as to who the team pursues. Just my opinion.
    I am not one that thinks that Ruben can do nothing right. If you check around to the various team’s websites, you will find similar feelings about every team’s GM, I am sure! It has to be a thankless job.

  17. J.L.

    November 18, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    Ruiz is pretty durable. To platoon him systematically doesn’t reflect what he could be doing consistently imo. I feel for as good as he became hitting, he was underpaid since 2011. Sandberg got him going with his plate approach discipline preaching like he did Rollins. I’m trying my best to be positive lol i hope iI’mnot in denial.

  18. J.L.

    November 18, 2013 at 1:22 pm

    Ruiz was suspended for adderall because he didn’t tell the mlb he was taking it, now they know and he’s now allowed to take it. No PEDs.

    • Chuck A.

      November 18, 2013 at 1:27 pm

      Yeah, Chooch was stupid for not disclosing it but Adderall is hardly the drug that some people are making it out to be. Much ado about nothing. Let’s just move on already.

      • J.L.

        November 18, 2013 at 1:33 pm

        Yeah i agree, I’m sick of people saying it was PEDs though. It’s not hard to find the information. They’re not PEDs.

    • Brass Villanueva

      November 18, 2013 at 1:38 pm

      “”It masks fatigue, masks pain, increases arousal — like being in The Zone,” begins Wadler, currently an associate professor of medicine at Hofstra North Shore-LIJ School of Medicine, in a phone interview.

      “It increases alertness, aggressiveness, attention and concentration. It improves reaction time, especially when fatigued. Some think it enhances hand-eye coordination. Some believe it increases the mental aspects of performance.”

      That’s not to mention possible increases in acceleration, speed, strength and power that accrue to Adderall users. It’s no wonder that Wadler calls Adderall “one of the quintessential performance-enhancing drugs. There’s no question it’s a performance-enhancing drug.”

      • J.L.

        November 18, 2013 at 1:47 pm

        Ruiz has been on it though this year and didn’t produce until Sandberg came in. Also none of that is certain, the wording itself speaks loudly. In people with “ADD” it increases concentration and calms them, opposite of not being on it. And people who don’t have ADD it acts like speed. I have ADD and personally learned how to control it but he has a tough job.

  19. Ron Cori

    November 18, 2013 at 1:57 pm

    Relief to fans? Not for 3 years…I can’t wait for Metamucil sponsored Fireworks Night.

  20. betasigmadeltashag

    November 18, 2013 at 2:48 pm

    I think the third year was to bring down the AAV. Which really is not a bad idea. I live in RedSox territory and from what I was hearing the 2/20 was the contract Boston was offering. So instead of 2/20 you give another year and less per year. And thus option is a team option so it really does not matter and if he is playing well enough and or the team is doing well enough to play 120 games it will be worth the bonus. And if you can find a legitimate back up for 2-3 million per you are only paying 11-12 million in catchers. And IMO the catching prospects are still 1-3 years away and if one if proves they can play n the majors they will still be cheap and can Learn from chooch in the last 2 years. I know he is not as good offensively but how much did Pudge Rodregeiz get as. Back up limited time catcher and still produced

    • hk

      November 18, 2013 at 3:21 pm

      Why is $26M for 3 years better than $20M for 2? Assuming that Chooch will decline like most 35 year old catchers who have played this game before him and that he may significantly decline in his age 37 season, I would rather pay a little more in years 1 and 2 and be done with the player than get a small break in years 1 and 2 and potentially pay $8.67M for little or no value in year 3.

  21. Lefty

    November 18, 2013 at 2:49 pm

    I hate to say this, I always try to comment here with a solid opinion, but I’m on the fence this time.

    I can’t decide.

    The numbers, if they are true, look bad, real bad.

    But it’s Chooch- the guy that played way over his head for years on a bum salary compared to catchers of close to equal value.

    In 2012 when Chooch held the club together practically- he made (I think) 3.7m, and Joe Mauer made 23m, McCann 11m, Yadi- 7m- Was Mauer 20m better than Ruiz? Forget the money, was he better at all? Not according to my eyes, or hard numbers.

    A list of guys that made more than Ruiz in 2012-
    John Buck
    Russell Martin
    AJ Pierzynski
    Kurt Suzuki
    Geovany Soto
    Miguel Olivo
    Rod friggin Barajas?


    Why, you may ask, did I use 2012? Because he was our best hitter, in the most important defensive position that year. And our most important player the year before, and maybe even the two years before that as well.

    I get that the move makes absolutely no sense on so many levels, but I also feel Chooch is deserving of his just due. I really can’t decide on this one.

    • Alex M.

      November 18, 2013 at 3:34 pm


      I see what your saying with Chooch and I would agree with you completely if this was a 2yr deal w/ an option for a 3rd. But the fact that Ruben guaranteed a 3rd year is nuts IMO. In 2016 we have a bunch of contracts that will come off the books so instead of adding another one he wanted to make sure we had a 37 year old catcher in 2017. That is my problem this team is set up to have a major rebuild in 2016 if things do not improve and Amaro just made it more difficult and likely blocked prospects like Rupp, Joseph and potentially Knapp(who I think could move fast if he gets his stuff together).

      • hk

        November 18, 2013 at 4:14 pm

        Alex M.,

        Chooch is only guaranteed money for 2014, 2015 and 2016. In 2017, the team has the option to pay him $4.5M to play in Philly or pay him $0.5M to play elsewhere. The team has a lot of money coming off the books in 2016 as Hamels is the only one who is signed for 2017.

      • George

        November 18, 2013 at 7:11 pm

        It might also be nuts if the Phils only offered a third year option and another team gave him that same option and beat the Phils out with an extra million for the two years. Then Amaro might be stuck overpaying for McCann, who’ll likely end up a DH (and whose contract would most certainly block all the catching prospects for even longer than Ruiz’s three years) or Saltalamacchia, who can’t hit lefties; beat out a team for Pierzynski, who’s actually older than Ruiz; or wind up with a guy or m,aybe two guys who can’t hit anybody.

      • Double Trouble Del

        November 18, 2013 at 10:23 pm

        Knapp is at least a year and probably two years away. Joseph will likely NOT continue at the catchers position because of concussion issues and Rupp is a backup who will only be blocked by Eric Kratz.

  22. Manny

    November 18, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    It’s not a bad deal. Thought it’d be slightly cheaper, but that third year won’t hamstring us at all… so no need to make a huge fuss about it.


  23. Bart Shart

    November 18, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    Chooch is making up for being UNDERPAID all those years. Good for him, good for the fans, good for the Phils. We need a catcher that can call games.

  24. Ken Bland

    November 18, 2013 at 3:40 pm

    Good job by the Ruiz camp for plying the free agent game (or so it seems) to the hilt, and getting about as maximum a contract as can be.I haven’t seen details as to any sort of no trade provision, but that would add dollars to the player’s value.

    From the club standpoint, it’s tough to evaluate it. You alwqays guess as to what future fair value will be, and 26 mil for the catcher might be a little high, but not a lot. And, what’s done is done, but I can see where this maybe makes up for some past underpayment, if you’re looking to justify it, even if you don’t see the necessity of making up for past shortcomings. Plus, this is a poor way to approach business, or at least not a good one, but with the would be TV money that’s at least coming, how much being YTBD, 9 mil might fit right in as less strain economically.

    I didn’t quite expect Chooch to get a 3rd year, but since he did, at least the Phils maintained some control by maintaining a club option for the 4th year. Attainable 4th year goals would have crossed the line. Plus, get into years 2 and 3 especially, and Chooch seems like a built in coach/tutor for whoever might emerge (if anyone) from the young catching crop.

    A final way to look at it is that if Marlon Byrd is “worth” 8 mil, Chooch at 9 is in line.

    I’m glad this got done. It’d be nice to get 2 solid years out of Chooch, solid defined as you feel the whole 3 year deal was worth it for the minimum 2 solid years.

  25. Robotnik

    November 18, 2013 at 8:38 pm

    MiniMart, Byrd and Ruiz…… Amaro strikes again!

    I thought Stanford grads were supposed to be exceptionally bright. Does anyone know whether Ruben ever suffered a concussion? I’m searching for a medical reason that would explain these moves and Rube’s poor judgment.

    He is clearly out of his mind!

  26. everybodyhits

    November 18, 2013 at 8:40 pm

    The Amaro solution to an aging roster and bloated payroll is spending over $50 million on two players with a combined age over 70.

    • G7

      November 18, 2013 at 9:07 pm

      There goes a knee and our 35 yr old catcher plays 50 games over the next 3 yrs.. Not real smart Amaro ..

  27. DavidE

    November 18, 2013 at 9:57 pm

    I have heard Steve Carlton is rested and looking to make a come back. How about Mike Schmidt? Greg Luzinski supposedly is in playing shape. These free agents could be signed for much less than Ruiz. Ruiz is past his prime. I would have signed him for one year at $9 million or $10 million. Deal does not make sense.

    • schmenkman

      November 18, 2013 at 10:07 pm

      DavidE, why one year $9 mil? Why not one year $1 mil, since that’s just as likely to be accepted?

      Just curious — which catcher would you want to sign, and why would that be better than Ruiz?

      • Phillips Fan from Germany

        November 19, 2013 at 2:48 am

        Exactly right. It is always a question of alternatives. There clearly was a Strong market for Chooch (and for a Reason!). While i Would have preferred a 2 Year contract with a Little higher AAv this Deal is Not Out of the line.

        As a Long as the Phillies Keep Handing Out These Type of contracts we will be Fine behause of our High Payroll. The Howard Or Paps Type of contracts are the Problem.

      • hk

        November 19, 2013 at 7:47 am


        The answer to which alternative depends upon what else the team is planning this off-season and what budget constraints they are imposing. If they are planning on 2014’s payroll that is close to 2013’s payroll, one alternative would be to go short-term and cheap at C – trade for Ryan Hanigan or sign Dioner Navarro or AJ Pierzynski – and allocate the savings to another position (e.g. starting pitcher). An argument could be made that Hanigan + better SP > Chooch + lesser SP.

      • schmenkman

        November 19, 2013 at 8:08 am

        hk, assuming there was a trade Cincinnati would be interested in, that would be:

        Hanigan + better SP
        Chooch + lesser SP + players not traded for Hanigan

        Even accepting the idea that signing Chooch means they have to get a “lesser SP”, I don’t see a clearly better option. And Hanigan is 33.

      • hk

        November 19, 2013 at 9:03 am


        1. I don’t accept the notion that the Chooch signing means they have to go cheap to fill other positions. That’s why I prefaced my suggestion with it depends upon the rest of the off-season. However, if they do go cheap and sign a 2014 version of John Lannan, the Hanigan + better SP vs. Chooch + worse SP conversation can be had.

        2. Yes, Hanigan will be 33 next season. He’s also projected to make ~$2.3M in arbitration if Cincy, who now have their 2 C’s for next season, even tenders him an offer. I don’t know what it would take to trade for him. If they wanted too much, signing Navarro or Pierzynski would have become short-term, cheaper alternatives.

        Having stated these alternatives, I’ll also reiterate that I’m in favor of them re-signing Chooch and I think he’ll earn his $26M. However, since I don’t expect the team to get close to the luxury tax limit, I would have rather seen them guarantee 2 years instead of 3, even if it meant doing so at a higher AAV.

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  29. Ken Bland

    November 21, 2013 at 7:40 pm

    At today’s Ruiz signing, RAJ, Jr. was apparently asked if he could provide a quote that would inspire competition for Alex Rodriguez to have competition for The Week’s Most Incredible quote….

    The GM aimed to please…

    Ruben on aging core: “Yes, they are older. But they’re very good.”

    Perhaps Rube feels like the swamp land in Florida is very good, too.

    • schmenkman

      November 21, 2013 at 7:51 pm

      Yeah, only 1 of 4 was very good in 2013. 2 of 4 were very good in 2012 (plus Utley, but only when he played). They all *could* be very good in 2014, I just wouldn’t bet on that.

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